Ever toss and turn at night, wondering what eludes you for that perfect slumber? Wake up, sleep enthusiasts, as Dr. Catherine Darley joins us to unravel the mysteries of restorative sleep and how it can dramatically reshape your life. Together, we journey through personal sleep struggles, discuss natural sleep medicine, and celebrate the triumph of greeting the day rejuvenated. Dr. Darley's dedication to sleep science isn't just about the shut-eye; it's about equipping busy professionals and families with the tools for balancing their bustling lives with the peace of a good night's rest.
A good laugh and a long sleep are often hailed as the best cures in the doctor's book, and this episode marries the two as we dissect the bond between sleep and mental health. We'll chat about the allure of quick-fix pills versus the empowering path of managing our health through habits. I'll even get personal, sharing my own therapy journey and how it has helped me forge a healthier relationship with sleep. Additionally, we consider how positive conversations can truly be a balm for the mind, reducing stress hormones and setting the stage for a tranquil retreat into dreamland.
As the stars twinkle outside, we'll share practical nocturnal nuggets, like why those blue light-blocking glasses might just be your new best friend. But it's not just gadgets and gizmos; we touch on the power of light in regulating our sleep-wake cycles and how the right boundaries can keep the boogeyman of stress at bay. For those brave first responders or anyone battling the midnight mind races, we've gathered a treasure trove of strategies for you.
You can do Catherine's course by clicking SkilledSleeper Course: Transform Your Sleep and Energize Your Days
She also offers a free downloadable guide by clicking Get your 7 Step Sleep Guide (skilledsleeper.com)
She also has a YouTube channel Be A Skilled Sleeper - YouTube
You can also get her a Substract by clicking Be A Skilled Sleeper | Dr. Catherine Darley | Substack
And here is her Instagram: Dr. Catherine Darley | Natural Sleep Expert (@skilledsleeper) • Instagram photos and videos
If the night gets too heavy, there's a lifeline at 988. So, tuck in as we offer a heartfelt 'goodnight' and a promise of more enlightening conversations in episodes to come.
Ever toss and turn at night, wondering what eludes you for that perfect slumber? Wake up, sleep enthusiasts, as Dr. Catherine Darley joins us to unravel the mysteries of restorative sleep and how it can dramatically reshape your life. Together, we journey through personal sleep struggles, discuss natural sleep medicine, and celebrate the triumph of greeting the day rejuvenated. Dr. Darley's dedication to sleep science isn't just about the shut-eye; it's about equipping busy professionals and families with the tools for balancing their bustling lives with the peace of a good night's rest.
A good laugh and a long sleep are often hailed as the best cures in the doctor's book, and this episode marries the two as we dissect the bond between sleep and mental health. We'll chat about the allure of quick-fix pills versus the empowering path of managing our health through habits. I'll even get personal, sharing my own therapy journey and how it has helped me forge a healthier relationship with sleep. Additionally, we consider how positive conversations can truly be a balm for the mind, reducing stress hormones and setting the stage for a tranquil retreat into dreamland.
As the stars twinkle outside, we'll share practical nocturnal nuggets, like why those blue light-blocking glasses might just be your new best friend. But it's not just gadgets and gizmos; we touch on the power of light in regulating our sleep-wake cycles and how the right boundaries can keep the boogeyman of stress at bay. For those brave first responders or anyone battling the midnight mind races, we've gathered a treasure trove of strategies for you.
You can do Catherine's course by clicking SkilledSleeper Course: Transform Your Sleep and Energize Your Days
She also offers a free downloadable guide by clicking Get your 7 Step Sleep Guide (skilledsleeper.com)
She also has a YouTube channel Be A Skilled Sleeper - YouTube
You can also get her a Substract by clicking Be A Skilled Sleeper | Dr. Catherine Darley | Substack
And here is her Instagram: Dr. Catherine Darley | Natural Sleep Expert (@skilledsleeper) • Instagram photos and videos
If the night gets too heavy, there's a lifeline at 988. So, tuck in as we offer a heartfelt 'goodnight' and a promise of more enlightening conversations in episodes to come.
Hi and welcome to Finding your Way Through Therapy. A proud member of the SiteCraft Network, the goal of this podcast is to demystify therapy, what can happen in therapy and the wide array of conversations you can have in and about therapy Through personal experiences. Guests will talk about therapy, their experiences with it and how psychology and therapy are present in many places in their lives, with lots of authenticity and a touch of humor. Here is your host, steve Bisson.
Speaker 2:It's always a pleasure and welcome to Episode 141. If you haven't listened to Episode 140, it's about my training that I'm going to be running soon. It's also going to be available for a fee, obviously, afterwards. So if you want to listen to that and kind of preview of what we're going to talk about, that'd be great. But Episode 141 is with Dr Catherine Darley. Catherine came to me because I saw her online on Facebook and she's a natural sleep medicine and I know a lot of my clients have been struggling with sleep for a long time. So she's treated patients for over 20 years and she teaches the sleep skills for people that thrive and you can find her at different social medias.
Speaker 2:I think we're going to talk about it during the interview. So here is the interview, after a brief word from GetFreeai with the code Steve50. That gives you $50 off. Go listen to it. It's a great commercial. Please go and listen. Hey there, everyone. You've known me to host this podcast for about 130 something episodes before I put actually any type of commercials on here and I'm looking right now at my health care professionals looking to have a real impact with our clients. I really enjoyed this product and I've actually used it personally and that is why which is very important for me to tell you, because that's why I want to share this I want to introduce Freeed F-R-E-E-D.
Speaker 2:Freeed, the app that listens, transcribes, writes your medical documentation for you. With Freeed, you actually can actually pay attention to your clients, do things with your clients, and not be distracted by making sure you're writing notes. What also helps with this app is that the note is saved for about 10 days and it does disappear no longer as there after a while. So writing down those notes is no longer your responsibility. The AI, freeed, will write the note for you and create a progress note for you. But it goes also beyond that and what I really like about it is that it can help you set goals and it even creates a letter. You can make any type of edit to it and there's actually a button now for it to learn how you write your own notes. So maybe the first few days you set it up so that your Freeed can recognize your note taking process and how you want to create a progress note either soap or what have you and it really helps you with that and, the best part, it's very affordable.
Speaker 2:I really think that at $99 a month. You'll have access to what helps your practice and I can tell you from personal experience taking notes, writing down notes, writing down the goals, writing down any type of letter a client might need. That usually takes me I don't know. It takes me a lot of time during the week. I used to do my notes on Sunday and it used to take me about three hours. Now I think that if it takes me an hour, that's surprising. And when you think about Freeedai, it's very affordable. For just $99 a month you can access everything that I just talked about. If you pay for the whole year, you actually save 10%, which is what I did, and I'm looking forward to continuing to use it.
Speaker 2:And because you hear this podcast, you're my friend, someone I know. I have a little treat for you. So I used to code Steve50, again Steve S-T-E-V-E 50, and you'll get $50 off for your first month. That's right more value for your money. I don't want you to miss out on how to get your practice going and give yourself a freedom to pay attention to what's important or why we did this job. You just pay attention to the client. So download Freeed today. Don't forget to use my code Steve50, for $50 off the first month, and let's make a difference in our clients' lives and make sure we can pay attention to them. Remember, with Freeed, your clients always come first.
Speaker 2:Well, hi everyone and welcome to episode 141. You know I'm very excited because you know what I'm someone who has two kids, two teenagers. I have a business, I work with first responders. I work with another business that I like to work with. I work with people in the armed forces, and sleep is not my friend. It hasn't been my friend, according to my mom, since I was born, and Katherine Darley, who is a natural sleep medicine, which sounded very interesting, saw her online. I'm like I got to have her on, not forget about my audience, just for me. But, katherine, welcome to Finding your Way Through Therapy. Thank you.
Speaker 3:I'm so glad to be here. Everybody needs a good night's sleep, and that's my mission.
Speaker 2:So how many hours do you sleep at night? Just by curiosity.
Speaker 3:Eight and a quarter, eight and a half.
Speaker 2:Wow, I'm so jealous.
Speaker 3:I was thinking about it this morning. I often wake up with that old Kellogg's Frosted Flakes jingle. It's gonna be a great day. You know, the tiger? I mean, I'm dating myself. I think that was the 70s, but yeah, I often wake up feeling that way from having so much good sleep.
Speaker 2:Don't worry. I was talking to someone this weekend and I said the best part of waking up is fulgars in your cup and they're like what?
Speaker 3:Right.
Speaker 2:You're curried going. Oh, you're curried going. Yes, I need to know what. That is Okay. But all joking aside, you know I'm getting to know you too, so, but my audience would definitely want to know more about you. So how about you Tell us a little bit about yourself?
Speaker 3:Yeah, so I got excited about sleep when I was in college and had the opportunity to do this super cool research experiment looking at the sleep of teenagers when they were on a regular 7.30 to 2.30 type of school schedule. And then in that same school district they didn't have an. They were remodeling one school and so they didn't have enough physical space, so then they had same population go to school from 3pm to 9, and I compared their sleep and their performance measures and that's really got me hooked. So I did, worked in a sleep lab, worked in a overnight sleep clinic doing the obstructive sleep apnea studies, and then went to medical school naturopathic medical school with the idea that I'm going to found the field of naturopathic sleep medicine. And so I've done that now for 20 years, worked with people of all ages, using behavioral medicine, lifestyle medicine and naturopathic principles to treat sleep disorders and give people the sleep they need to thrive.
Speaker 2:Just on that alone I have questions. So, naturopathic medicine. For those of us who are not informed, I do, actually. I'm actually fairly informed on that, but can you please explain it to the audience, who might not know it?
Speaker 3:Yeah, so naturopathic medicine is a type of medicine. You might be familiar with. A couple other types Tire practice is a type of medicine, allopathic medicine, which is your medical doctors, osteopathic several different types of physicians and naturopathic medicine has what we call a therapeutic order, which we start at the least invasive therapies, easiest least likely to have side effects, and work our way down. So, for instance, with insomnia, if we can use behavioral medicine, which is at that one of the first therapeutic order, we do that. Instead of pharmaceuticals, we try the interventions that are least likely to cause problems first and that works well. And things like in naturopathic sleep medicine we want to use light therapy and light exposure before we use pharmaceuticals.
Speaker 2:And you were talking my language. I was actually talking to a client today and was telling me about starting medicine for some of the treatment that he wanted, and I said well, how about we give me time to give a little treatment before we start going into the pills section of the world, and I'm a big fan of? I'm okay with medicine, don't get me wrong. We need them sometimes and that's cool.
Speaker 3:For sure.
Speaker 2:But I like what you said because I think that's unless you haven't had the same experience. I think people turn to pills way quicker than they should sometimes.
Speaker 3:Well, and I like to think about it in terms of teach a person to fish or give them a fish that when you teach somebody how to care for themselves and strategies that support our natural physiology, that is empowering, whereas when you have to go every month to the drugstore and take the substance and you feel like I have to take this if I want to get any sleep, that is disempowering. And I like people to feel like they have the knowledge and skills they can that they need to take care of themselves. And, like you said, I you know there is definitely a call for some of those interventions lower down on the therapeutic order the pharmaceuticals, surgery, chemotherapy you know we need all of those also as an option, but not the best place to start, in my view.
Speaker 2:I agree wholeheartedly, and it's also realizing that you can start with something mild like melatonin, before you hit yourself in the head with some sort of like benzodiazepine, like Ambien or something like that.
Speaker 3:Yeah, totally, that's right. Yeah, I think it's. I wish more people had that awareness right, because there are side effects of taking pharmaceuticals long term, you know. For insomnia, for instance, they're only supposed to be taken for most, at most five excuse me, 10 days, and many people are taking them much longer.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and if I hear more, Nyquil or Zquil is now they're trying to formulate it as I'm like okay, so how about you just get a fifth of vodka? You're doing the same thing to yourself, anyway.
Speaker 3:Right.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's not recommended. And the VIX people. Yes, you heard me correct correctly what I just said, but you know one of the things that I talk about. You talk about a lot about like the least invasive to most invasive and you know part of me, obviously. As a therapist I always go like therapy is a lot more effective than any pills sometimes. But I'm wondering just the standard question for all my guests have you ever been in therapy yourself?
Speaker 3:I have. Actually, I was married to a man who I really loved and he was taking contracts for the army in Afghanistan and other war zones and, yeah, he came back a different person so we did therapy then.
Speaker 2:That's good you did as a couple or individual.
Speaker 3:It was couple and then, when we got separated and we're going down the road of divorce, it was individual.
Speaker 2:And did you enjoy therapy, or is it something that you're like you know? So not for me.
Speaker 3:I feel like it was extremely helpful in terms of helping me gain insights that helps me get through the situation, so, but I also felt that it was work right. It took some thought, some willing to think about deeper causes and consequences and ripple effects and all of those things to kind of surface the truth.
Speaker 2:I think that that's what therapy is right, and I think that about treatment right, like even with you know, we're going to talk a lot about natural sleep medicine, but even for that, I think that there's it's not like, it's going to be like, okay, tell me what to do and it's going to be fine. I mean, there's going to be work involved and that's therapy for you, right.
Speaker 3:Yeah, totally, and I think you know I was having this conversation actually with someone yesterday about how sometimes it's easier to spend dollars than to spend your effort or your time learning a new skill or developing a new habit. And I think you know the sleep skills that I focus on I think that they're going to help and do 90% of the lift, and I might recommend a product, but it's only doing 10% of the lift. But somehow and I'm sure that I'm, you know that I fall into this too sometimes that it's just easier to spend the money, spend the money on a new something rather than doing the work of fixing it.
Speaker 2:So, yeah, I think I can change the oil on my car, but I'd rather pay someone to do it, so there's times where it's okay to pay people for some.
Speaker 3:Oh, totally, totally.
Speaker 2:But learning how to do it for your like, sometimes doing it for yourself, especially for skills in regards to sleep, among other things. I think it's worth developing the time you know and the skills, so to speak, to go forward. You know, one of the things that I the reason why I also was so intrigued by having you on is that you know, for me, mental health is essential. I think mental health One day my goal is hopefully my lifetime that doctors will treat mental health just like they treat a physical. So once a year you go see your mental health person. I'm good, I'm not good, maybe you need some sessions, maybe you're good for a year, who knows? But I think that that's where I want it to be. But you know, one of the most common themes of people who start with me in therapy they complain about sleep. So how sensitive is our mental health to sleep loss in all reality? Because I think it's related.
Speaker 3:Yes, it's highly related. The thing that people don't realize is just an hour or two of being sleep deprived can make a person more anxious, more liable to have panic attacks. And the reason that that is so important, steve, is that about 36% of American adults don't get enough sleep on work nights, so they are chronically sleep deprived. And so when we think about this, you know kind of epidemic of anxiety. There's been a lot more talk about anxiety and high numbers of people are reporting anxiety. It's kind of bi-directional If you're sleep deprived, you're more likely to have anxiety. If you're anxious, you're more likely to have sleep problems like insomnia and mostly insomnia.
Speaker 2:And it's really like a wheel right. Anxiety causes sleep issues. Sleep issues causes anxiety.
Speaker 3:Right, I think about it as like a negative feedback loop or a negative spiral. You're just, you know, night after night, the anxiety during the day is making the sleep worse, the poor sleep is making the anxiety worse and it just feeds in on itself. And I think that it's really helpful for people, if they're having mental health and sleep issues, to do some treatments that are focused on the mental health issues and do some treatments that are focused on the sleep, to not assume, okay, well, once I get the anxiety handled, my sleep was automatically going to recover. That's not necessarily what we see. Or once I restore my sleep, the anxiety will recover. Really, doing treatments that are focused on both ends of the equation makes all the difference.
Speaker 2:I think you're making an excellent point. That I tell people all the time is that it can be just one solution to the problem. You know, one of the trinities and no religious intent here is I tell people about the mind-body-spirit connection and even if you're spiritual like you're doing well with your mental health and your body's okay, if you're not spiritually driven, there's going to be an issue with one or the other two eventually, because it just keeps on the feedback loop. Yes, I don't know what your thoughts on that, but yeah, I agree with you.
Speaker 3:I think I mean that's one of the other things that I really love about naturopathic medicine is that we think about whole person health, and you know my treatment. You know treatments are focusing on diet, exercise, sleep, but then we also have kind of secondary factors joy, community relationships, right those are also part of a person's holistic health picture.
Speaker 2:Well, I think that you brought up something that I've you know in the last few years and I always knew it, but I kind of never put it into words. But, reading a lot of research about community, I think that's key. But you know like I'm not going to get a sleep group going, so what does, how does this community help with sleep? I'm not going to be like, all right, let's have a sleep in 20 of us all together. I don't think that's going to work.
Speaker 3:Yeah, so I'm glad you asked because I'm really passionate about this topic. When people feel socially connected and socially secure, they sleep better. You know, in for sleep we have to drop vigilance right and that's why there's this. You know, part of the reason, at least why there's this connection between being anxious and poor sleep is that when you're anxious, you're in a little bit of a hyper vigilant state and being hyper vigilance does not help you sleep. So the thing about loneliness and sleep is that we know that when people are lonely, it impacts their sleep and, conversely, when people aren't sleeping well, interestingly they're going to feel more lonely and tend to self isolate. So I think, you know, one of the conversations and awareness that's really come out of the pandemic and I think has kind of stuck with us since that time, is recognition of how many people are feeling lonely, who you know. One of the studies that I looked at that's relating sleep and loneliness asked if there's an emergency, do you have someone to call? And the people who said I don't have someone to call, their sleep was notably worse. So, yeah, really interesting.
Speaker 3:You know, building community and and also one of the things I observed in my practice is and I observed this probably in my early 40s or late 30s that I had this group of people who would come in with sleep problems for the first time in their life, about two or three years into retirement, and for me at that age, like retirement was this golden place, you know.
Speaker 3:Years down the road and I just thought, oh gosh, I hope that's not me, but you know, when I I dive down in into their lifestyle and improving their sleep, what I really noticed is two things. One is that they didn't any longer have a routine, and also they didn't have the, you know, their social life had really been tied to their workplace, and once they were not going to their workplace, they didn't have very many social connections left. And so I actually made it part of their sleep plan to find some activities, you know, those hobbies that they just never had time enough for, or groups that they thought, oh, I'd like to do that, you know, when I'm retired, to actually, you know, commit, start building that lifestyle of connection with others, and I think it really helped.
Speaker 2:You know, I took around with my retirees that have the exact same promise and learn to Yodo, learn to underwater basket weave who really cares? If you're doing with a group, people are going to you're going to feel better and they always laugh like you just did, but like eventually they go and join something a little less. You know, steve ideas and you're like, hey, you're right, I feel connected, I feel more relaxed and I'm like, yeah, that's so important to feel kind of like like connected to any human being.
Speaker 3:Yes, absolutely.
Speaker 2:You know, I think about the stuff that, even doing this podcast, I mean, you know it I'm just privileged and blessed to be connected with someone on the other side of the country right now. But you know, I can now say that you know what I know, Catherine, she she's out on the West Coast, and even the connections that you make, even for an hour or two, I think are so important to and I don't know what you think about that.
Speaker 3:Oh yeah, absolutely. I'm sure you know there's so many things that you can measure after positive people have had positive conversations, like we're having, where the blood pressure is lower, the heart rates lower, the stress hormones are lower Right, and it's a pretty immediate effect. I'm sure you're familiar with some of the research where they, you know, hook people up to sensors and then they're told to have a fight or have a nice to chat Right, and immediately your physiology switches to reflect that.
Speaker 2:And I think that the other thing that you mentioned and I know you know we did pre interview and I always kind of don't try to keep to the questions, but I want to throw a little bit of a question they didn't bring up in pre interview and, if it's okay with you, obviously Sure, but you know I I push my clients to also have a bedtime routine, like a sleep routine within 30 minutes to an hour before bed. What are your thoughts on those things?
Speaker 3:I think that is really essential and I want to. You know, steve, I imagine that you have, and probably most of your listeners have, heard about this idea of not having blue light or screens in the hour before bed. Yes, and so I'm a bit on a mission to bring that up because, although I think most people, or many people at this point, have heard this principle, I don't think people understand how very, very sensitive our system is to the blue light. Basically, if you hold your hand out at arms distance and you can see your fingers wiggling, that is enough light to suppress your melatonin and impair your sleep. Wow, so that's not very much light, right? So the recommendation? So I have a little bit of a long answer, I hope you'll bear with me. So the recommendation is that a person get 10.
Speaker 2:Sorry, we're out of time. People, I'm kidding. I'm kidding, Kathy, go ahead.
Speaker 3:So the recommendation is that people get 10 lux of light for three hours before bed. And to give you perspective, one lux is equal to one candle flame. So 10 lux for three hours before bed is not three hours light, three hours.
Speaker 3:Yeah so think about most of human history. Until we had an electric light switch, people would be in firelight, candlelight or it would be dark. So a tip is on your smartphone you can download what's called a lux meter app and there's free ones that are good enough and basically you hold the little camera lens at your eye level and measure how much light you're getting, I think first, and then you can check and see how much light you're getting. I think three hours before bed most of us are still in a pretty active part of our day. We're getting tasks done supervising kids, watching TV, doing computer stuff.
Speaker 3:So the other strategy, if you're not going to turn down your lights and turn off your devices, is to wear blue blocking glasses. There's many brands of blue blocking glasses. It makes everything like a pinkish red. The important part if, when you're shopping and there's many price points and I think that there's good ones at that $20 price point you just want to make sure that they have these reddish lens there's some that are marketed that have more of a clear, clear colored lens. Don't get those ones. Get some that have like a really strong orangeish red lens and wear those instead.
Speaker 2:Well, and I think that for those who are just listening, please go to YouTube. And you know, catherine gave a great example of how to use the Lux app to make sure that it picks up that light, and then she showed a little bit of the measure of the glasses, because you know, I've seen too many transparent glasses that are blue light sensitive or whatever, and you know I always found them to be not very effective.
Speaker 3:Yes, the, yeah, the research. I mean I'm making that recommendation based on research papers that it's really the reddish, strongly red lenses that are needed to have the best effect.
Speaker 2:Well, you know, I think that that's a good habit to have. I think that that's something that even like, a couple weeks ago we had a snow storm up here in the Northeast and I had to be online for nine hours and I my, my, my, my glasses were at my office and it's about 40 minutes away from me and I'm like that's why my sleep was so bad that night, so shitty. Sorry, I do swear, and it's okay to swear on this podcast I forgot to mention, but you know you talk about the stuff that's important to do. Obviously, I think those glasses on a daily basis is very important, but is there part of a daytime routine that you feel is promote sleep at night so much more effectively? I mean, there's got to be some stuff, right?
Speaker 3:Totally, totally. So. Light and darkness are really important, and this is something that we've known in medicine and science for the longest time for decades, honestly but it hasn't really been adopted by people on the street yet. I think mostly because we just haven't got it or given people clear recommendations. So during the day, in the, within the first two hours of your day, you want to go outside for 20 or 30 minutes and get bright light that signals to your body in many, many ways. It is daytime, it is time to be active, it's time to switch into active physiology, and our homes are just not bright enough and our offices are just not bright enough.
Speaker 3:You can again use that lux meter on your phone and test the lighting. It's supposed to be at least 250 lux. The lighting is usually 150, so indoor lighting isn't enough. Outdoors at the same time, it'll be 10,000 lux of light. We're just getting like a 100th of the light indoors as we would get outdoors, and so then, so that's 20 minutes of light in the first couple hours and then every two hours, go outside for, you know, five or 10 minutes and get a light burst. That will really help quite significantly actually.
Speaker 2:And you know that'll give me an excuse to, every morning, go for a walk, which is awesome.
Speaker 3:Totally.
Speaker 2:You know, I had a friend of mine who she would literally sit at the window. She couldn't leave the house because she had COVID, so she'd sit sit at the window to get all the light that she possibly could from outside.
Speaker 3:Yeah, the thing about windows is that they often have coatings, whether or not they look like they do. They often do, so we prefer people to go actually outdoors. I'm living in a new, smaller place and don't have a yard, and I've noticed my I do. I'm lucky enough to have a balcony, but it faces north and so I don't really get as much light. But even if I just put on my coat and sit outside for half an hour with my computer, that gives me more of a burst of energy.
Speaker 2:Well, I think that that's all good advice, especially to get us going in the morning and then make us ready for sleep at night, I guess right.
Speaker 3:Right, because basically you want your melatonin your natural melatonin to start to rise at bedtime and melatonin is suppressed by bright light. When we first wake up we still have some melatonin on board, but when we go outside it suppresses that melatonin and it almost has a teeter-totter effect. If you strongly suppress your morning melatonin with bright light, your evening melatonin will be more and happen a little bit earlier, which will help you fall asleep.
Speaker 2:And I know maybe it's a follow-up question that's going to sound weird, but having friends up in Seattle a little harder to get that sun sometimes, is it so if it's cloud covered or anything like that, is that still sufficient? Does that help?
Speaker 3:Totally yeah, it's. Even on an overcast day, it'll be at least a thousand lux or more outside, which is, you know, still five times brighter than indoors.
Speaker 2:I just wanted to mention that because I know that some people will have that question, and you know, part of the fresh air, so to speak, as I tell people, is that it's not the fresh air, it's actually the sun and what you're getting from it.
Speaker 3:Totally, totally, and that you know. The opposite hormone in some ways from melatonin is cortisol. Cortisol we may hear about as being abnormal in stress situations, but we naturally have some cortisol and want to have some cortisol. What happens is cortisol also has a 24-hour or circadian pattern where it should be low in the night and then a couple hours, two or three hours before we wake up, our cortisol starts to rise, which helps us wake up, be ready to get active and do our day, and so we need cortisol. And the sun actually impacts our cortisol too.
Speaker 2:Oh, I didn't know that.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Oh well, that's. That's good to know, because cortisol gets a bad rap. We do need cortisol, Just like I tell people that you know, adrenaline is a friend of ours, especially if a saber-tooth tiger comes out of the woods. But at the end of the day, I think that we knowing that about cortisol is something that people don't really understand and, for general information, cortisol is usually linked to stress, but cortisol is naturally occurring in your body, just like when you have an injury. People don't realize, but we have natural opioids that help you relax that pain. It's those extra opioids that we know that causes a lot of problems eventually for people.
Speaker 3:Right, yeah, so cortisol naturally rises, like I said, and so it peaks in the early afternoon and then it should decline. The way that it is negative for our sleep is that when people are under stress, particularly chronic stress, it can make it so that their cortisol is still elevated at bedtime and interfere with sleep. We do want it to be lower in the afternoon or in the evening than it is in the morning.
Speaker 2:So why do I go pick up my kids in the afternoon? Anyway, just kidding, just kidding, just kidding. Love you girls. They're both teenagers, so maybe that's just what I'm talking about.
Speaker 3:Teenagers have really unique sleep circadian rhythms.
Speaker 2:You're telling me. I mean, she's like oh, I got up at 3am today, why? And so it just is a weird, weird pattern.
Speaker 3:Yep, yep.
Speaker 2:You get used to it, I guess. But you know, one of the things my teenager does at 3am is also because she gets to start thinking she races, I have this, I have that, we're going on a trip soon. So she's thinking about you know what do I have to bring If I forget? What's going to happen? You know how are we going to fill the suitcase, because she's again a teenager. So the suitcase the size of this room is probably not big enough. But I'm joking aside, you know, part of it is to how do we calm these thoughts in the middle of the night. I mean, I talk about my teenager but believe me, that's a. It's a in mental health. I'd say it's a 70 and 80% issue for most of my clients.
Speaker 3:Oh, totally. So I think calming your racing mind is a strategy. Well, it takes a couple steps. The first step, which I think sometimes people don't mention or name, is to be okay with not thinking in the middle of the night. You know, I love how in the last couple of years there's been so much more talk about boundaries, about setting appropriate boundaries, and I think, you know, an hour before bed, say enough already to my to-do list. The to-do list will be there tomorrow and I'm I deserve to have a good night, rest and take this time from you know, an hour before bed, two hours before bed, until I wake up, to be mentally off duty.
Speaker 3:And you know, for people who have mental health issues or other stressors going on in their life, it can feel sometimes hard to rest when you're problem solving and or your mind, you know, you just don't have a solution yet. But sometimes when we set a problem aside and we come back to it fresh the next day, we're able to take some, make some progress right. So I like to first set boundaries that sleep is just for sleep, it is not time to think about stuff. And so then you have to make time to think about stuff before bed and I think this can be particularly tricky for people who are really busy or who are parents. But take 10 minutes to write down those thoughts that come up and you could use any format, could be a problem solution brainstorming chart Could be a to-do list, could be full sentence narrative, like diary, like you know that conversation that you wish had gone differently. And then in the night, if you're once, you're in bed, if your mind starts racing, have some kind of statement that you tell yourself. That is true, I already thought about that because you did your journaling. Now is my time to sleep. I can think about it tomorrow, I don't you know.
Speaker 3:Sometimes people get into self-blaming or shaming of why am I thinking about this? Or it's stupid that I'm thinking about this. Don't do that, because I think if we're thinking about something, we're not done with it. We need to think about it, right. So, but it's just not the time right. And anybody who's had parents, you know kids, or a coworker or a neighbor, sometimes people ask you for stuff and you say, yes, I will do that, but not right now. Right, and basically you're saying that to your thoughts and you know whatever statement you have that can kind of set your thoughts aside will will be effective.
Speaker 3:Sometimes people read mantras or suggest a mantra. I don't really personally go for just generalized mantras because I think it needs to hit your heart, it needs to feel true to you, like a mantra of oh, everything's going to be okay. There is no oomph with that for your heart, for most, for many people Maybe I'm just saying for myself, but for me, like, that kind of platitude just doesn't work Like, but something like it's so the phrase has to be true for you and then you can do some kind of sleep promoting practice. Tell yourself a story, do progressive muscle relaxation, do a gratitude practice until you're asleep, with the intention of, you know, falling asleep to that practice.
Speaker 2:And I agree with the mantra. It's got to be personally meaningful because everything's going to be all right. All I can think of is like, oh, bob Marley, oh, what else did you? Oh, I really like Bob Marley. Now, suddenly, I'm in the rabbit hole. While you were talking, I'm like, oh, I got to get back to the interview, think about Jamaica now. So, yeah, I definitely agree, and it's got to be something that's meaningful to you. The other part, too, is I this is I agree with you.
Speaker 2:Another, another point which I tell my clients all the time on my couch and my work there's a stuffed bluebird that I put in the back purposely and when people like I just want to stop thinking about that, I said, okay, there's a bluebird behind you, Don't worry about it. There's a bluebird, it's stuff, it's not going to hurt you, it's a bluebird, but don't worry about it. And then I start talking and said what are you thinking about right now? And they go all I can think of is there a bluebird behind me. So that's why that doesn't work, not to think about something.
Speaker 3:Right, right, it doesn't work, and yeah. And so sometimes people say, oh well, what I do is I have, you know, my phone or a piece of paper and pencil and I just capture my thoughts in the night. I think that is not a good idea either, because it trains you that bedtime is the time to think about stuff and bedtime is not the time to think about stuff. Bedtime is the time to let your mind relax, your body relax. We need that restorative physiology of sleep.
Speaker 2:Well, and I, you hit a big pet peeve of mine there. And the pet peeve of mine is the phone next to you while you're sleeping. Ah, that's a huge pet peeve of mine. I tell my clients you got to move that away. Whether you believe in Wi-Fi signals or not, they do affect you. Whether you'll believe me or not, I really don't care. And the other thing too it's too easy to reach to your phone. My phone has always been in. I've been. You know I one point I didn't have a phone because I'm old enough that we grew up. But you know, would not having a phone next to you. But my phone is always on a different floor than where I sleep. You know, hotels excluded. But you, you get the right.
Speaker 3:I think that's an excellent idea, because the thing about the phone is that we are trained to be vigilant to it and to have an object that you're trained to be vigilant and like hyper responsive to, next to your head when you're trying to decrease vigilance is not a good idea. And there's actually been studies that even when a phone is on airplane mode and you're just using it like as an alarm, it disturbs your sleep so it should be in another room. And you know the concern, real-life Concern that comes up when I say that to people is like oh, I need to be reached. And I think that's true. You know we do. There is a handful of people that we need to be reached by, you know.
Speaker 3:So I set my phone up that my parents and my child can reach me. Their phone calls will come through during sleep hours and my program, my phone, is programmed for those sleep hours and otherwise I, so I'm basically using it like as an emergency dial-up phone during sleep hours and that Is really great way to set boundaries. Like sometimes, people you know they're responding to notifications, texts, emails. You don't need to do that. You deserve the time to rest. I agree with you wholeheartedly.
Speaker 2:I also kind of remind people that there was a time where we didn't have access to our cell phones and somehow we all survived. So for me, like, if I get a call at 3 am, my mom's up in Montreal. So if there's an emergency that happens in Montreal at 3 am, I'm not getting there till. Even if I left right away, I won't get there till 9. And when my kids they're the other two that have in my girlfriend there's like four people that can have an emergency breakthrough. But otherwise, as of like 10 am, 10 pm, most of my contacts are all blocked out of my mess and like my form, because I just don't want to be able to be able to answer it.
Speaker 3:Right, and it's not. It's not necessary, right. Yeah, I think that's good self-care and I think that that's where you know I'm gonna put some.
Speaker 2:Maybe if you have some recommendations for the Luxe Meters, I would love that. And also kind of like remind people to how to, you know, plan their phone so that it doesn't wake them up. Because I think that that's to me, that's the big, my biggest pet peeve any any time. So it says, why need my phone for this? I'm like, go pay 10 bucks for the all 1980s 1010 Flashing thing and then you put on it, you're gonna go beep, beep, beep, beep. Right, you're going to go beep, beep, beep and it's going to wake you up and you're fine. And I've had the same one probably since I was in my early 20s and I'm like, yeah, see something like that simple, 10 bucks and you're good.
Speaker 3:Totally yeah. So we're pointing out an old fashioned battery powered little alarm clock, and the one thing I also love about this, steve, is that it does nothing other than tell the time and wake someone up. I'm not going to glance at this or remember it's at my bedside and think about oh, the radio program I listened to last time, or the, or the story you know that I fell asleep to, or anything. It has no associations other than what the time is and whether I should wake up or not.
Speaker 2:I have a book next to my bed and it's a physical book. It's not. It's not what I don't want to put on Kindle, but or nook or whatever. I'm not pushing for my reader. Yeah, e reader, that's an even better one, but yeah, it really does like paper and you know, honestly, I do it like.
Speaker 2:For me, part of my routine for bed is I get out of my end again very manly. I take a bath, but I love thinking, and then I go in and write in my journal, grab my book usually one or two pages in, even though it's the might be the best book in the world I go and then I'm like all right time for bed. And so just creating that routine is key. But you know, one of the things that we did that I that I also deal with in my practice is I work with a lot of first responders and the routine sleep is not something that happens a whole lot, and so, because I work with a lot of first responders, I wonder if you have any advice for, maybe, first responders, because their sleep patterns is absolutely garbage.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I'm really concerned about first responders sleep, so I'm very glad that you bring this up. First responders are one of, if not the most, sleep deprived occupational group. They generally get around six hours of sleep like 6.1 hours, I think is the most recent I saw and that's not sufficient. That is just not sufficient. And combine this chronic sleep deprivation with the performance demands and safety risks of their work, it greatly increases their risk of mental health problems. And one of the things that we know is that when a person is sleep deprived or they have a sleep disorder, if they have a trauma at when they're in that sleep sleep deprived state, it's more likely that they'll develop PTSD afterwards.
Speaker 3:And so that's something I'm really concerned about with both first responders and actually military militaries also a highly sleep deprived occupational group. We are setting them up for developing PTSD by having that sleep culture, and so it's definitely concerning to me and you know, I know that's a more philosophical question and you were asking for tips I think the first thing to do is to really make sure that you are not sleep deprived and that means prioritizing your sleep, which is tricky when you're working nights or you're working long shifts. You know, if you're working a 12 hour shift, get it being yourself eight hours of sleep by the time you, you know, commute and shower and eat a bite. That's taken all your time off, which is tricky.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean I never going to compare myself to first responders, but having worked with them in the community, worked as they in the ER for several years as a mental health crisis clinician, you know, even if I finish at 11 o'clock at night, even if I'm a half hour away from my work, I'm not sleeping by midnight. I'm up for another 90 minutes and two hours just still. Because you're, because you're still like I don't know on, so to speak, in my yeah, keyed up and having all the emotions and just needing some wind down time.
Speaker 3:Yeah, people aren't able to wind down immediately. It takes some time. But I think also you know as best you can and sometimes I think it's helpful actually to make a list because you're not in a very it can be hard to regulate yourself when you come off of those long shifts and I, working in sleep labs, I've had my share of long shifts. But to have a list of when I get home to prepare for bed, I Immediately put on my blue blockers, I change into my comfy stuff, I shower you know you mentioned taking a bath and actually having a bath or a shower an hour or two before bed can help sleep. So that's a great practice and just you know, kind of both psychologically or Spiritually and physically wash off the day right.
Speaker 1:Is it.
Speaker 3:Good, you know it can be More than more, than just the physical wash, but just that practice of separation. Ditching my uniform, I'm ditching, you know, I'm washing off the day, I'm putting on my blue blockers and Having something you know a rule of if I'm gonna watch TV it's gonna be something mellow and nice kids programs or you know a fun sitcom, but not something intense.
Speaker 2:Well, when did the other options that I give people for, especially my first responders? I said watch a show that you've watched a hundred times.
Speaker 2:Oh great you know like. You know whatever you like. I mean, I'm gonna say Seinfeld here, for example, but if you, you're a big fan of Seinfeld, but you've seen every episode, watch it, because it's not gonna test your psyche and your ability to Make sense of it. You already seen it, so it's just gonna calm you down. I watched a lot more re reruns than I Care to share here, and people always laugh at me and I'm like you know what, though, just calms my brain to get it to where I needs to be.
Speaker 3:I like that idea, especially because sometimes people are reaching for alcohol right when we you know, when we know we need to get to bed but we don't feel necessarily relaxed or sleepy enough, we might be reaching for alcohol as a sleep aid. And the thing with alcohol is that it does Effect our physiology and help us fall asleep initially, but once the alcohol is metabolized off, it wakes us up right.
Speaker 3:And so you're. You're having a maybe a short-term gain and a long-term, longer-term problem, because then you're awake and your sleep drive has been partially discharged, so you're not able to return to sleep easily, and that can lead to, you know, alcohol problems if you're then getting a drink in the middle of the night, which some people do.
Speaker 2:That's keeps on, you, keep on, you know, reinforcing my whole view of Nyquil or any of those type of medicines to sleep, because it is based on alcohol. For the record, for most of them are alcohol based. So, yeah, well, you know we've already come getting close to the hour. It went really fast. I can talk about sleep forever, because I certainly struggle with sleep, but I think that it might be helpful for people to know how to reach you and how, maybe, like there's a couple of things I want to mention. I know that it's sleep awareness week coming up in a few weeks.
Speaker 3:Yes, yes, the beginning of March right around the Jump to daytime's a daylight saving time.
Speaker 2:Okay, perfect, and that's definitely where people have more issues with sleep and it's also where we have most physiological issues, because that's when the heart Attacks are more common than any other time of the year. Absolutely, when we fall back or spring forward. So number one. So when is that?
Speaker 3:That is March 6th through 11th or something.
Speaker 2:Oh, hey, great.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:Just want to bring that up to everyone so that they can, you know, think about it. Maybe that'll be some things they can look up there. But you know, pop, I'm sure that you'll be talking about it. So how can people reach you and maybe like get to know you better or find stuff that you do?
Speaker 3:Yeah, totally so. I'm on Instagram and TikTok, if you like those formats with just short little pieces of information to help you sleep, and then I do longer form on YouTube and sub-stack. I'm always a skilled sleeper. And then I have some courses, and the courses are three and a half hours that people do online with Video lessons and then the worksheets to guide you into rebuilding your sleep and making your custom sleep plan. And I took the time, steve, to really customize those courses to different populations, like I have one that is specifically for law enforcement, because I feel so concerned about that population. There's one for women, one for families, shift workers, corporate leaders. So that allowed me to really customize. Okay, what issues are families having with their sleep? What issues are women having across the lifespan with their sleep? Because it's a little, you know, what women need to learn about sleep is different from what law enforcement necessarily needs to learn. And, yeah, so that's at skilled sleeper calm.
Speaker 2:Perfect and I, as a feminist myself, I'm a big fan of Realizing that women have a lot more pressure on them than they used to. I know men are starting to be a little more involved in the household and all that, but women have had this Be be cheery at work. You know the whole Barbie movie thing be good at work, be good at home, look great, but don't bother us. And the pressures on women are very high. So, as a long Standing feminist, thank you for doing that. Yeah, you're welcome. Well, I'm hoping that people go to skill sleepers SK I ll s L e e p e r and now put those in the show notes, but just want to mention that you to tick tock Instagram as well as your website that I'm gonna also link in my show notes. And, you know, think about sleep week. I'm sure that there's gonna be a lot of stuff that Catherine does, but, catherine, I could talk about sleep forever, but I also don't want to put our audience to sleep, haha. So thank you for your time. I truly appreciate it.
Speaker 3:Great, thank you. Everyone sleep well, thank you.
Speaker 2:Well, that completes episode 141, catherine Darley. Thank you so much. I really appreciate it and I'm looking forward to reading more and going to your social media. But on episode 142, we're gonna meet with Laura Long. Can't wait to talk to the Laura Long and that would be for episode 142, and I hope to see you then.
Speaker 1:If you are in a mental health crisis, call 988 for assistance. This number is available in the United States and Canada.