Embark on an explorative journey with our esteemed guest, Ivanna Colangelo, a licensed marriage and family therapist who brings her vibrant and discerning perspectives to today's pressing relationship issues. As we peel back the layers of patriarchy's influence on our intimate connections, Ivanna's immigrant background and her refreshing take on Instagram provide a lively backdrop for our deep dive into masculinity and the role it plays in shaping the quality of our relationships—and by extension, our lives.
The conversation transitions into the heart of relationship dynamics, tackling the imperfections in communication that are all too human, and the critical nature of repair work to foster reconnection. Ivanna imparts wisdom on emotional intelligence and the fluidity of gender roles, pushing for a world where empathy reigns and traditional stereotypes are challenged. Our dialogue is rich with insights on navigating the intricacies of marriage and family therapy, including the personal growth of therapists themselves, and the balance required when professional knowledge meets personal life.
As we close, we contemplate the generational shift towards authenticity, particularly among younger crowds proactively seeking growth and the maintenance of their relationships. Ivanna's stories from the trenches of therapy rooms highlight an emerging trend: a conscious movement towards understanding and improving oneself before reaching a tipping point. With a raw and relatable approach, this episode is not just a discussion—it's an invitation to reflect on the profound impact our relationships have on our well-being and to engage actively in the shaping of a healthier, more empathetic society.
To follow Ivanna. follow her on Instagram here.
To know more about her upcoming workshops, services, or to sign up for her newsletter, click here.
Embark on an explorative journey with our esteemed guest, Ivanna Colangelo, a licensed marriage and family therapist who brings her vibrant and discerning perspectives to today's pressing relationship issues. As we peel back the layers of patriarchy's influence on our intimate connections, Ivanna's immigrant background and her refreshing take on Instagram provide a lively backdrop for our deep dive into masculinity and the role it plays in shaping the quality of our relationships—and by extension, our lives.
The conversation transitions into the heart of relationship dynamics, tackling the imperfections in communication that are all too human, and the critical nature of repair work to foster reconnection. Ivanna imparts wisdom on emotional intelligence and the fluidity of gender roles, pushing for a world where empathy reigns and traditional stereotypes are challenged. Our dialogue is rich with insights on navigating the intricacies of marriage and family therapy, including the personal growth of therapists themselves, and the balance required when professional knowledge meets personal life.
As we close, we contemplate the generational shift towards authenticity, particularly among younger crowds proactively seeking growth and the maintenance of their relationships. Ivanna's stories from the trenches of therapy rooms highlight an emerging trend: a conscious movement towards understanding and improving oneself before reaching a tipping point. With a raw and relatable approach, this episode is not just a discussion—it's an invitation to reflect on the profound impact our relationships have on our well-being and to engage actively in the shaping of a healthier, more empathetic society.
To follow Ivanna. follow her on Instagram here.
To know more about her upcoming workshops, services, or to sign up for her newsletter, click here.
Hi and welcome to Finding your Way Through Therapy. A proud member of the SiteCraft Network, the goal of this podcast is to demystify therapy, what can happen in therapy and the wide array of conversations you can have in and about therapy Through personal experiences. Guests will talk about therapy, their experiences with it and how psychology and therapy are present in many places in their lives, with lots of authenticity and a touch of humor. Here is your host, steve Bisson. Merci, Monsieur.
Speaker 2:Thank you, sir, and welcome to Episode 144. If you haven't listened to Episode 143, go back and listen to it. Liz Kelly talks about her book. I can't wait for you guys to read it. It's really good. This book is cheaper than therapy.
Speaker 2:But on Episode 144, it will be with someone I've known from another company we work together at and we hadn't really touched base in a long time. Her name is Ivana Colangelo. I hope I said her first name right. She'll let me know in the interview. I'm sure. She's a licensed marriage and family therapist with therapy and coaching practices in Rochester, new York, where she lives with her husband, her three-year-old daughter and two rescue docs. She is a certified Terry Reales relationship life therapy. I hope I said that right. If I didn't, she'll talk about it An approach that considers the influence of patriarchy on how we relate to ourselves and others.
Speaker 2:Ivana believes in the quality of our relationship determines the quality of our life. So I'm looking forward to hearing that. And someone I really respect. If you go watch her on Instagram, I think that she has great reels and I think it's Masculinity Monday or Toxic Masculinity Monday or Healthy Masculinity Monday, one of the three that's on on Mondays. So, anyway, here is the interview with Ivana GetFreeai. Yes, you've heard me talk about it previously in other episodes, but I'm going to talk about it again because GetFreeai is just a great service.
Speaker 2:Imagine being able to pay attention to your clients all the time, instead of writing notes and making sure that the note's going to sound good and how are you going to write that note, and things like that. Getfreeai liberates you from making sure that you're writing what the client is saying, because it is keeping track of what you're saying and will create, after the end of every session, a progress note. But it goes above and beyond that. Not only does it create a progress note, it also gives you suggestions for goals, gives you even a mental status if you've asked questions around that, as well as being able to write a letter for your client to know what you talked about. So that's the great, great thing. It saves me time, it saves me a lot of aggravation and it just speeds up the progress note process so well.
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Speaker 2:Well, hi everyone and welcome to episode 144. I can't tell you how excited I am to have a colleague that I knew through another company and we never really got to talk. I think we were talking pre-interview, maybe we talked once, maybe, and she quit like three years before, and I always read her stuff on Instagram. After that followed her lover, relationship with her husband and a lot of different things that she says. So, ivana Colangelo, I didn't even ask if that's how I pronounce your name.
Speaker 3:Yeah, it was pretty close, Ivana Colangelo Ivana.
Speaker 2:Colangelo. Okay, sorry about that. Well, welcome to Finding your Way Through Therapy.
Speaker 3:Thanks for having me. It's really cool. Glad we have a chance to chat.
Speaker 2:Well, that's what I really want. One of the goals of Finding your Way Through Therapy is people will listen to what therapists talk about or what they think that's important. It's not meant to be educational in the sense that you need to do this, you choose this. I don't do well with that stuff anyway. But yeah, I'm looking forward to our conversation because if you've listened to a few episodes, you know that I don't read questions. I don't like reading questions and I want to get to know you and the audience to know you, so maybe that's a good place to start about. Tell us a little bit about yourself.
Speaker 3:Yeah, okay, so I live in Rochester, new York. I was originally born in Argentina, so my family moved here when I was two, so I'm technically an immigrant, but I've lived most of my life in the US.
Speaker 2:Same boat We've traveled a lot.
Speaker 3:What was that?
Speaker 2:I'm in the same boat, so we're good.
Speaker 3:Same boat we're both immigrants.
Speaker 3:Yes, yes, so I got that in my background. And I have a husband. I have a daughter who's three and a half years old. I have a private practice. Oh, I forgot my dogs. I have my two rescue dogs as well. They're annoying, but they're part of the family as well, so that includes them, and I have my private practice here in Rochester.
Speaker 3:I see clients virtually as well in the state of New York and I also started recently doing some couples and relationship coaching, which is like a slightly different to my approach in therapy. But there's a lot of overlap there with clients from all over the place. They don't have to be just in New York state. And what else? Yeah, I got certified in relational life therapy a few years ago I was in the last 2019, which is an approach that was created by Terry Reel, so he's kind of like my mentor and it's the primary approach I use, but obviously I bring in a lot of other approaches when working with. Primarily, I work with couples and with individuals that are having relationship issues, so I bring in a lot of Gottman, a lot of EFT, sue Johnson girl science, eft meaning.
Speaker 3:Yes, emotionally focused couples therapy.
Speaker 2:We just remember we don't, we're not going to go too much of the jargon because we're going to lose a little bit.
Speaker 3:Right, right yeah, because a lot of people might not know what that is. So yes, good call.
Speaker 2:You know it's funny because the first thing that strikes me when I listen to your stuff is that wait a minute, there's not just Gottman, and Gottman Institute is very famous in couples counseling and relationship counseling in our field. So you know it's nice to have different approaches. So I appreciate that from you.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I do kind of try to tailor things to what my clients are bringing in. So, like with premarital work, like we might not have to go deep into some trauma, we might have to go more into like coaching, educational work, and with some other couples maybe there's a betrayal or fidelity, like you have to go a little bit deeper into things. So I like to bring in a lot of different approaches and different frameworks.
Speaker 2:And you know. The other thing, too, is, if you ever go see her Instagram, you will see how truthful she is, and I like her honesty around different things, someone who is directed to the point, which is another very good trait that I admire and respect from any therapist.
Speaker 3:Yeah, that was something that worked out really well in terms of my preference for working with couples, because it's a specialization and I think that it works well with my personality where I can be very straightforward and very concrete and action oriented and less of kind of reflecting or processing, which is kind of how individual therapy can be a lot of times.
Speaker 2:Well, you know, my business is called straight to the point, therapy, so we don't do a shitload of reflection and we kind of get processing let's pop up, let's do some stuff now, not wait.
Speaker 3:Right, let's get to the point.
Speaker 2:You know, one of the standard questions that I have on my show, besides who you are, is have you ever been in therapy? So that is my next question to you have you ever been in therapy?
Speaker 3:Yeah, I am actually in therapy right now. I actually started with the new therapist like two weeks ago because prior therapists if I didn't have like the specialization that I was kind of looking for in the stage of my life where it's more like focusing on like motherhood and parenting and transitioning into that world and kind of like the struggles and challenges that can come from that, whereas in the past it was like other kinds of issues that I was working through.
Speaker 3:So, yeah, I'm a big fan. I think everybody should have a therapist. I, coming from Argentina, like everybody there, literally has a therapist. It's like going to the dentist, it's like the most normal thing. There's lots of a stigma around it. So it's interesting when I hear people still having a little bit of like hesitation.
Speaker 2:You know, part of the mission, also for finding your way through therapy, is that for one day, somewhere, somehow an insurance company or someone hearing me saying once a year, you go see a therapist, everything's going well, you go on your way, you don't have to worry about it. You have a few things going on, maybe you come back for a couple of weeks or, you know, in two months or what have you. But therapy should be like a physical, it should be done at least once a year and hopefully someone somewhere is going to hear me say that, because I think it's essential.
Speaker 3:Yeah, that would be amazing. We could make that happen and make it a regular thing. I do that, a lot of my couples do that. They come in for maintenance appointments. I feel like we're never really done with therapy, like we're in a better place, we don't have to meet as regularly, but then you know we could do like a month, three months, once a year, whatever it is that feels good for them to just kind of check in and see where things are at, which is anything that needs tuning up.
Speaker 2:I have a few clients who come in every three months and they call me their oil change.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:For some people.
Speaker 3:That's the only time they can get to talk about these things.
Speaker 2:And it's interesting that we take care better of our card and we do our mental health, but that's a different story for a different day, I'm sure.
Speaker 3:Sorry, I feel like our values are off sometimes, but you know that is a different story for another day.
Speaker 2:You know we can talk about values for a long time, because that's something that I think we sometimes forget. You know, yesterday usually I work on, you know, a little bit on Mondays. Now and yesterday I did nothing. I took care of me, took care of what I needed to do, and you know, that whole self-care thing comes in handy at times because I feel refreshed this morning and Bushy, bushy Tail their bright-eyed and Bushy Tail is that what they say. We just need to learn how to take care of ourselves. And I know I mean that's what I think couples counseling is all about, in my opinion too, because it's taking care of not only yourself in order to be a better partner, but to be just present for the other person. And maybe you can tell me a little more about what made you decide you said it was kind of fair like you're going into couples counseling. Can you tell me more about what made you decide to go into couples counseling?
Speaker 3:So a big part of it was just seeing relationships in the world, especially in my own family, where I was like there has to be another way, like this can't be the way that people do relationships. I just wanted to study it, obviously for my own understanding and curiosity. And then I was in my first real long-term relationship at college and I took a class that was all about relationships and family systems and I was like, oh wow, this is exactly like. I knew I wanted to go into psychology, but I didn't really know in what kind of area I really wanted to specialize in. And then I took that class and I was like, okay, this is my thing, so what I'm really interested in.
Speaker 3:And then I just went straight into marriage and family therapy program for grad school versus a more generalized program, because I knew that that's really what I wanted to focus on. So yeah, that's kind of how I got started.
Speaker 2:What's the? What school is that? Cause I didn't know there was a specialized school for that, so I'm learning myself here.
Speaker 3:So that was here in Rochester. It's called University of Rochester, it was under the School of Medicine and it's just a marriage and family therapy program.
Speaker 2:That's good to know because for a long time and I think it's still the case we're in March 2024 when we're recording this as far as I know, lmfts are still not seen as equivalent in LMFTs or licensed marriage therapy, licensed marriage and family therapy. I'm sorry but yes, they're not still recognized in Massachusetts as D equal to LICSW, lcsw, lmhc. It's kind of sad because I had a great therapist that was an LMFT that you know is still practicing when you gotta pay out of pocket and you know I do have insurance. So went to another therapist, but that's. I'm happy that there's schools, but I don't understand why people don't value this more.
Speaker 3:I don't understand either. There's a lot of lobbying that's happening to make it be equivalent, because we actually sometimes get even more hours like we have more requirements than we have things. It's just more of like the state hasn't really caught up to it because it's newer versus social work or mental health counseling.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean I hate to put it in grades, but social workers get more respected, mental health workers then. Mental health workers get a better than marriage and family therapists and that's just sad because I think we're all equal personally, because we all have the same education.
Speaker 3:And I think all the additional training we do afterwards makes a huge difference too, like regardless of what degree you have.
Speaker 2:I mean, you know I choose my LMHC, ceus, and you know I choose the things I find interesting. But you know, I think our requirements are much lower than LMFTs. And again, I'm not gonna go into substance abuse counselors and shit, because that's also very much not respected in this field.
Speaker 3:Yet I don't know too much about it but yeah, I feel like there is a way along the way to go.
Speaker 2:Yeah, well, you know, and I think that, being in couples counseling, you know you said you decided in college. It's interesting because a lot of people struggle to find their specialty and then they, you know, or they change as they go along. I'm a child and family specialist. That's my actual undergrad not my undergrad but my master's program and I see no children nor families right now because I work now with trauma particularly, and first responders. How do we like? I mean it's kind of a calling when you stick with it for that long right.
Speaker 3:Yeah, so I don't know, I didn't really thought of it that way, but yeah, I feel like I was pretty sure very early on and then, as I learned more about it, it just made sense, also given my personality, because, like, I have to be a lot more active and couples therapy requires you to be very active in your sessions, so it just ended up being a really good fit.
Speaker 2:And you know when you do that in your sessions, being very active, does that you know. Sometimes my clients ask me regularly is do you get drained doing that? Do you feel like you get drained from doing that and being more active?
Speaker 3:So I am an introvert, so I definitely can't see too many clients because I will get drained and I need some space to recharge. So I definitely know myself and my limits. Like I see therapists that see, like you know, 30 clients a week and I'm like I can never do that, especially with people, because it is a lot Like I'm very present and very it it. It's not that they're there for Sarin's, but sometimes if it's individual sessions, I can kind of like slow down a little bit, I can kind of go at the pace of the client, whereas with couples it's like boom, boom, like it's going pretty fast and so like I have to do like some interrupting, I have to do some like challenging in the moment or coaching in the moment, or you know that's what I mean by being more active and so, yeah, I definitely can get draining, but at the end of the day I was like I got nothing.
Speaker 2:Well, I hope you have a good self care, because for me too, as much as I do a podcast and people look at me like, oh, you must be an extrovert, I'm like no, I'm actually a much an introvert. I need my time alone, I need to recharge. But yeah, I think I hope you have a good self care after what you've seen a few clients in a day.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I've been working on that because I used to be always thinking like, okay, well, what can I read that would be helpful for work, like, what could I be listening to, what could I be watching, what could I be doing on social media? And I've been since having a child. I felt like I was forced to kind of put more boundaries in place around my work because it's like, yeah, I can love it, but I also need to take care of myself so that I can do it well. So I have been like reading for fun at night now or just like watching like a dumb show, working out more. That exercise has been huge. I feel like, yeah, it's put things into perspective a little bit more in terms of balancing work and self care.
Speaker 2:Now I'll give you a spoiler. As you grow older, your kids will force you to take care of yourself because you will have to drive them to XYZ DAS classes gymnastics, soccer or lacrosse. I have two teenagers and I had to learn all those boundaries when they started having all those activities. I wish I learned earlier.
Speaker 3:Yeah, so earlier it was harder for you to set the boundaries.
Speaker 2:Well, you know, I think it's you think about couples. You know my. You know and I'm not gonna go into details because I'm not here to do that it's my wife's, my ex-wife's story too. But you know, we were both therapists, we were both working hard, we both had our own businesses. So one laughed to go to work and one came home that they care of the kids and vice versa. And you know, I know that it affected our couple, I know that it affected my kids. And you know, eventually I was just like well, do I choose to make money or spend time with my kids? And, by the way, my kids always won out for the record, I'm not trying to do anything that I didn't win, but there were days I was resentful about that and that's because of the lack of self-care and boundaries.
Speaker 3:So yeah, that definitely makes sense. I see that with my couples all the time. I have the same situation with. My husband's a teacher, so you know he gets very drained at his job as well Works with high school kids.
Speaker 2:So God bless in Rochester too. Man good, rochester could be rough. I'm from Montreal so you know I know a little bit about that. That side of New York state Rochester is tough. I know there's nice places, don't get me wrong. I love Rochester, but there are some rough places around Rochester.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I mean we're in the suburbs but he works out in the country, so it's a very rural area that he eats like 30 minutes away. But yeah, he has a lot of challenges there. So it is really hard to then come back to each other Like when we were completed. So we have to just be really good about like very much more intentional now than we used to be pre-parenthood, about creating that self-care.
Speaker 2:You know the other part too. That I realize is like you know you have a younger one and you know, do see the pictures. And you guys are so cute to get all together and I really enjoy it. I know that that's the stuff that we tend to forget, is that you know that time is going to go by fast. I have 16 year olds a 16 year old and a 13 year old right now and I'm like I was holding you last week what the hell happened. And so, being intentional with your couple, make sure that you maintain. That is key, because it's easy. When you're a teacher, that's a rough job. Being a couples counselor, that's a rough job. I know it's educated jobs, but it's nonetheless difficult. We take on a lot of stuff, so taking care of each other is going to be as important, if not more, to take care of yourself to get there.
Speaker 3:Like once you started feeling pretty burnt out, you were like OK, you need to make a change.
Speaker 2:I wasn't going to try to interrupt, but I was wondering you know you're a couples counselor. I mean, how does that experience come into playing your couple? I mean, I must you know like? I just imagine, like if you and I'm going to just leave it at that, I'm not trying to get into it, but imagine a licensed mental health counselor arguing with a licensed independent social worker. That's how me and my ex-wife were. So that was absolutely terrible, and I'm not saying she was, I'm just saying that we both use psychobabble bullshit, as I call it. But I mean, you're a couple's counselor, he's a teacher. How does that influence the couple? I mean, I gotta know about that.
Speaker 3:So I tend to take off my couple's therapist hat in my relationship. I try to do as much as possible, obviously like it's not 100% possible, but I make mistakes, right, like I'm gonna say things that I'm like, oh, I probably should have said it that way.
Speaker 3:Or like that was kind of shitty, like I shouldn't have delivered it in that way, even though, like, the message was important because I'm tired or I'm hungry or whatever, but the important thing is that I, we do the repair work right, like we have the ruptures and then we try to reconnect after that, because that's really what's most important in any relationship, whether it's a parent, child, or your partner or siblings, whoever is to be able to find a way back to each other. So I'm definitely not perfect and there are times where I'm like.
Speaker 3:I mean, I try really hard but I can't get there. So yeah, there are times where I do a little like analyzing right what I'll be like is this maybe what's going on for you, or is this, or like you're doing this because of this or something like that, where I know that that doesn't work, Like that's not helpful in that moment, because that's putting me in like a detached place, like I'm not really in it with my husband, like I'd rather be kind of shitty but in it then in this kind of like most place being perfect, or like saying the right thing, but kind of like in a detached, like emotionally detached place Like I'm the guru here or something like that doesn't feel good for anybody.
Speaker 2:You know there's so many places I can go with that and all I can think of when you said that is and again the Canadian me kicks in about a lattice, more set song, about being perfect and the pressures we put on ourselves. But anyway, we'll get to that later. Maybe we could talk a little bit about that and with the patriarchy stuff. But does your husband, like, is he able to call you on your shit? Like basically saying like wait, you're not my wife here, you're being some sort of couples counselor. Does he call you on that?
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah. He said things like stop there picing me, or yeah, things like that are just like okay, I'm glad that he can do that, because I don't realize it.
Speaker 2:It's interesting, you know, like I'm dating someone who's a nurse and I've been with her for a couple of years and she's a couple of times said stop terror picing me, I'm like she's right, yep.
Speaker 3:I have to like slide in there.
Speaker 2:We're like oops, sorry, this is uncomfortable, but you know what I'm comfortable with. I'm in power as a therapist.
Speaker 3:Right, exactly yes, yes, cause now you're, you don't have to be vulnerable, right.
Speaker 2:I mean, that's why, like, maybe you'll hear it in a good context, but I wouldn't say like, hmm, rana, tell me more about that, cause I always think that's like the dumbest line ever. But that's me.
Speaker 3:Right Right. You want it to sound like kind of like you're in a different level, like I was like a little bit condescending or I don't know. It's just. It's just different in your peer relationships than in, like, your relationships with your clients.
Speaker 2:And it's also kind of like taking away the peers, right, I'm sure that you know we're we're we're talking right now, but you know, when you go, you go home, it's no longer a peer, it's an equal partner. And that changes the dynamic too, because even among peers like and I mean I don't know your knowledge about first responders, but my guess is I probably have a little more knowledge than you and you probably turned to me and they're still in expertise that's exchanged. I mean, if I talk about couples, I would definitely go to you and say, hey, can you help me out with this, that or the other thing, but when we go home it's equal partnership and that can be rough.
Speaker 3:Right and that that does play out a lot in some of the dynamics that I see with Michaels because, like a lot of them, like majority, are heterosexual.
Speaker 3:So there's the, there's a wife who's almost like the female partner, who's in that role of almost like the therapist role, like that grandiosity of like I'm more emotionally intelligent than you are, Not because I was born that way. Society has conditioned me to focus on that and develop those skills. So I've become wired to, maybe more attuned to things or have more language around emotions or things like that. And they come at their male partner from that place Again, like it's not a it's going to tune vulnerable, connecting place. Like I'm better than you because I have all of this and you don't, and like that's not helpful if you're looking for more connection in your relationship. So I have to kind of temper that and be like you know. Obviously, the things that you're saying are very important and the messages needs to be heard. However, the way that you're delivering that message is coming from a place that is not going to lead to your partner actually hearing you and being receptive.
Speaker 2:So, basically, what you're talking about is some of the patriarchal roles that we create. Yes, well, we're there, I want to be there, but you know, for me that's something important, if you you know, toxic masculinity Monday, or what do you call it Mondays, cause I like yeah, healthy masculinity.
Speaker 3:Mondays.
Speaker 2:Again. I'm plugging her Instagram left and right here. I do know I promise I know her, but I read those and I like a lot of those posts. But you know we're patriarchism important part of couples and I think it's worth really talking about. You know, I pre interview I was saying I'm part of the. You know I'm, I'm, I'm a feminist. I have two daughters, which made me even more of a feminist. But obviously I'm also a white male and I have some preconceived notions that there's some of them that I really like to have that power. But you know we're fighting patriarchy in general is a tough thing to do, but how important is it to know about patriarchy and how it influences our relationships?
Speaker 3:So I didn't really realize how important it was in grad school, I feel like nobody was really talking about it. Until I started working with couples in my own practice, I started realizing like the same dynamics kept showing up over and over and over and over again and I was like there's something in the water here, like why is it always so gendered? Why isn't a man coming in saying like, oh, I'm worried about having kids, because everything's going to fall on me? Like that never was a concern for any of the male partners? So I started just doing some some of my own research and digging and trying to understand.
Speaker 3:And that's when I stumbled upon, you know, this thing called patriarchy.
Speaker 3:Like I knew existed but like I didn't realize, like how insidious it was and how like it actually was part of all of our subconscious thinking, because it's the water that we're swimming in and like we don't realize that it's there and it's messages that we've gotten from birth that are related to our gender.
Speaker 3:So we've been conditioned to think for girls that like you have to be always appeasing people or you need to, you know, be the good girl and don't make any waves, don't have much of a voice. Obviously that's going to affect the way that you show up in your intimate relationships as an adult. And if you're a boy who's been conditioned to value performance and achievement and competition and not maybe other skills like empathy or vulnerability or emotional expression, it makes sense as to why you would be struggling with some of those things that are key to having a healthy relationship with somebody. So it just all kind of clicked for me and I was just like, oh, like, not just like family influences, which I think it was a big part of my education Like there's way more systemic stuff that's affecting the way that we are conditioned to respond to things.
Speaker 2:And if you had to kind of define patriarchy for those who may not know what that means, because I think sometimes we we talk about it but we don't define it how would you define?
Speaker 3:it. So I would define it as a system that elevates the masculine and devalues feminine.
Speaker 2:Okay, that's a good way of putting it.
Speaker 3:In a way that it's like so the way that I'm kind, of thinking of it is like in that like psychological way that it exists, versus like structural, which is more like on the political side of things, or like the way that you know organizations value men over women. I feel like in my line of work I'm just much more focused on like that aspect of it where it's it doesn't matter what gender you really are at the end of the day, but like the masculine is gonna be elevated.
Speaker 2:And you know, fighting that in a couple's kind of relationship is, you know, you can't just say to a guy be more empathetic, and he goes geez, that's a great idea, I'll do that. And you know, use more of your masculine energy. Oh yes, I will do that. And I mean that's I'm making and making a joke here, obviously, but you know maybe how it would be important maybe for us to know how can we get that kind of side and get people to think that way.
Speaker 3:It's. It can be a tough sell, but a lot of times it's basically do you want to want relationship, you want to live a relational life? Because you can't do that without having these skills, without learning them. And like you're perfectly capable of learning them, like you learn many other skills in your life, there's no reason why you can't learn these as well, that you just have to have the willingness to go there, which can be very difficult when it's something that you haven't been exposed to or it's something that hasn't been modeled for you, or it just feels uncomfortable.
Speaker 3:But, like learning a new language, feels uncomfortable, and that's a little bit how it, how it feels for some of or some of the couple couples that I work with or individuals that I work with, where it's kind of like they're starting from square one and they're doing it in a clumsy way or in a way that feels maybe embarrassing or inauthentic, and it's like pushing through that discomfort of being like that's okay. That's just like if you're learning a language and like you're saying some words wrong, like that's how you learn. The important thing is that you're working on it. You're trying.
Speaker 2:One of the patriarchal stuff that I also get a little annoyed too is that, you know, men can show up the way they do, while women have to be perfect. That's why I mentioned that Alana's more set song, because she encompassed that really well in that song. If you ever want to go listen to it's off jagged little pill. Not that I listened to that album 500 times, but it it is true that women are asked to be more perfect than men, and is that part of the patriarchy and is how do we kind of confront that if it is?
Speaker 3:Interesting because I feel like we both have the same like patriarchy puts the same amount of pressure on both of us in just in different ways, both genders, just in different ways.
Speaker 3:And that's why I kind of focus on like fit, masculine and feminine, because I feel like and I think it has a traditional masculine traits when I say masculine, so like assertiveness, dominance, competition, performance, toughness, courage, all those things, and feminine is more a lot of like the relational skills, like we call it, soft skills, empathy, nurture, hair vulnerability, all of those things that I feel like our society, getting going back to values, has devalued, has like, seen as like that's nice if you have that, like that's cool, but like that's not really what's gonna get you to the things that we're pushing you to want, which is a lot of money, a big house, high status position, right, like being being above others, being one up, and that falls under the masculine, traditionally masculine traits, and so whether you're a man, woman, non-binary doesn't matter, like that's that's what you've been hearing that those traits are better than these when they're not.
Speaker 3:They're just and like we need to be able to have both and be able to pick and choose which one we want to pick up at this moment. In this moment, I want to pick up assertiveness because, like, that's necessary for me to get my needs met. In another moment I'm gonna choose nurture, because that's what's important to me and in that aspect of my life, and I want, like my dream is like for men and women, to, you know, non-binary people to be able to just pick up whatever they need and not have it be like, oh well, this makes me less than in some way, so that we stop seeing those feminine traits as less than the masculine ones or I don't know that answer your question now, I forgot my ADD
Speaker 2:kicked in that, don't worry. I think that that's exactly what I want you to do is to just go with what you're thinking, because that's important too. I think that it's easy to fall into a situation where we buy into a question and not go where we want to go. So don't worry about that, I'm all for it. Number one, number two you did answer the question and for me it's really kind of like putting an equal footing. I'll again maybe that's me, but again I'll come from a.
Speaker 2:My point of view is that I tell women if they want to be tough, then they'd be tough. They want to be soft, they can be soft, and men have the exact same choice. As much as there's a bald head and a go tea here, I do do a soft job, as some people would say, and I'm fine with that, and I'm fine with what people think about me, because I also can hold my own. But I can also have my traits that are feminine, and I'm okay with that too, and I don't think it's about superior and fear, but I think it's making him equal so that both are acceptable to both genders. Maybe I'm wrong here right.
Speaker 3:That's exactly how I feel about it just having them be just different traits that you can choose and being able to have that choice. Because I feel like feminism has helped women and be able to have more of a choice, but it hasn't really worked. On the other side of things, men still feel like they don't really have that choice, that they're really still kind of trapped in that box of masculinity, and my goal in working with individuals, with couples, is to kind of help them see, like that there are other ways of being in the world that you do have a choice, like kind of giving them permission, that actually it's gonna improve your life at the end of the day, because if what you're telling me that you value your wife or your family, these are the ways that you can show them, show the world to show yourself and show your family that that's what you value and even, you know, learning those skills just so that you know your wife, husband, whatever non-binary here again too and thank you for mentioning that, I forgot about that that's on me.
Speaker 2:You know, if your partner is not there and you're having to be a woman and you're like I'm just gonna do the lawn, that's as acceptable as saying I don't want to do the lawn because that's not something I enjoy. I'm, I embrace most of my feminine traits but the lawns mind and call me toxic about that. I'm fine with it. But I think that it's just being able to choose and being able to also be able to access for me. I go back to accessibility.
Speaker 2:If I have to be a little tougher on clients and that gender plays a factor and again, I don't intimidate my clients, don't go say hearing that but I'm saying if I gotta play a little tougher and I can play that masculine role, I'm gonna do it. But that empathetic role is also accessible to me, where I'm like a lot more caring and understanding of what people go through, depending on the situation. You can't be aggressive with grief, for example. You know you can't. You can't be like, okay, well, get over your shit, come on, that's not how grief works. So I got, I have access to that empathetic, more caring, more understanding feminine trait and I put that in quotation for those who are not on YouTube and I think it's important to kind of like access both. So maybe that's another way of thinking about it.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I totally agree.
Speaker 3:I have the same issue with myself.
Speaker 3:Sometimes it's interesting because I present very feminine, which is kind of like how you said about like presenting in a very masculine way but being able to like, have all these other soft skills, and then people are kind of surprised when, like I, the way that I like some of it my to, the way that I show, ways that I show up, are a little bit more on like the masculine side in terms of like being very assertive or very direct and like less touchy-feely and I'd have to like work on those and like part of that is patriarchy at work, because I've been taught that like that makes you girly, that makes you like weak, that makes you right.
Speaker 3:Like if the feminist movement kind of swung a little too far in some ways where it became like let's be like men, right like let's be as toxic as men and it's like no, that's not what we want right like we want what we were we're talking about, which is like that choice, that accessibility and owning different parts of ourselves you know I go back to thinking about what you just said and you know I don't know if you ever watched a big bang theory, but Penny is seen, as you know, very girly girl blonde, blue-eyed and all that.
Speaker 2:But then she talks about her back road, back back roads, things in Nebraska and being able to gut a fish or throw a baseball and everyone like laughs at her for that and I'm like that's not exactly funny.
Speaker 2:That's actually pretty cool that she can do both yeah, right, seen as like, oh wow, like a shock the system right, I think it should be helped that's what I want to do, is I try to shock the system, because that's the other thing that I love, is that people look at me and go, oh, you must have a bike, or you've done this, or you done that. No, actually I'm pretty boring. I do listen to people, but if you need a slap in the face, you know I'm not physically again I'll do it and it won't bother me and most people like this. They stay so weirded out by both yeah, yeah, I can't.
Speaker 2:Their brain kind of like can't compute how two things can exist you know, and I've seen, I've seen a lot of couples struggle with this patriarchy stuff in different ways too, because I've worked with women and men where a man like I don't cook, like then fucking learn. And well you know, I, oh my husband's been gone for a few, a few weeks, and the grass really needs it. I wonder where I could call. I'm like there's a lawnmower in the back, I'll show you how to start it and do the fucking lawn. And I think that people really struggle because they feel like they're losing out on something when they choose a non-traditional trait. I mean, I don't know if you've experienced that, or not.
Speaker 3:What do you think they're losing out on whether they say that they're losing out so well, I don't cook.
Speaker 2:Well, learn well. Now my wife's gonna call me, or my partner whatever you want to call it it's gonna want me to cook. Yeah, well, if I learn how to do the lawn, my, my husband or my partner won't want to necessarily do the lot and they'll say, once in a while you can go do it. Well, you're not losing out, you're learning a skill. I don't understand why this is a losing out. I don't know if that's experienced sometimes with you in couples counseling, but that's certainly something that I've heard from some of my clients.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I feel like, in my experience, a little bit of like that weaponized incompetence, like you can do this better than I can, so you should be the one that just does it all the time, even if, like, the other person is saying like hey, I'm drowning and like, can you pick this up for me? Can you, like you, share this, which is really frustrating to see, because, yeah, it's like, oh, you, you're perfectly capable of doing this thing and You're purposefully doing it. Like this is extreme. I don't think there's that many people that do this, but, like the very, very toxic side of things, they're intentionally doing it poorly so that they can be like see, I can't do it, you're gonna have to do it, and I tend to see that mostly with men right, and A lot of the men that I know who have gone through separation or divorce.
Speaker 2:Well, they have to learn all that shit. So I don't like learn it in a couple and be happy.
Speaker 3:Yeah you're gonna say interesting how suddenly they're great at it.
Speaker 2:You should learn that for your partner too, because you know, I'm sure, that their partner also learns something for you. But that's just my two cents right, right yeah Partnership and yeah, weaponizing competence is something that has let the many divorces actually, if you ask me from my clients, and it's certainly something that we shouldn't be doing in general. But how do we call people on that? I mean, I know you were probably happens a lot in couples counseling. How do you call it out on them?
Speaker 3:I just call it out like like what I'm seeing, I'm saying this isn't something that you're drinking a bowl of doing. There's something that you're choosing not to do and it's hurting your relationship. So, like you have a choice like, do you want to live with this person who's miserable with you? Because, like, you're breathing the same air. So it just doesn't make sense as to why you would want that when there's something that you could be doing differently that would Help improve the environment that you live in. Like this is in your own, this is for your own self-interest, like my mentor, terry real, called it enlightened self-interest, right. Like if you're not doing it to be kind or helpful or whatever, fine, but at the end of the day, it's not really working for you. It's not hoping create a good quality of life.
Speaker 3:So maybe it's time to try something different.
Speaker 2:I think my clients are sick and tired of me saying to them How's that working out for you? And you always go. I knew you're gonna say that I'm like, well, I'm gonna keep on saying it until you change. So I definitely use that and you know, one of the the one of the things I also wonder is like, how do we? You know I it's hard, because I talk about couples counseling with a lot of my individual clients. They're like well, we're not having major problems, like we need to wait for major problems. And obviously you kind of know where my answer is, but I'm gonna ask you anyway Do you think you got to wait for major problems in order to go to couples counseling?
Speaker 3:It's a big no. I have a lot of like. This is what I love seeing. Which makes me very hopeful about the future is I have a lot of Gen, z Generation clients that are coming in being super proactive, like so proactive that like they don't even have anything for me, I'm just like but what are we gonna talk about?
Speaker 3:because where everything is so Stable that it's like they're almost like looking for me to like bring up like hypotheticals or like, well, what if this were to happen, how would we deal with it? I'm like that's great, right, but like it kind of takes more prompting on my end than I'm used to, because they're not really coming in with anything serious that they want to address. But it's really, it's really cool that they're Trying to figure out like how would we deal with these things and be able to then bring that into Situations that show up in the future.
Speaker 2:Well, you know, I think that that's where I see this, this generation, the, the. I'm a gen X guy but I feel like, you know, there's been a change and like a wanting to address things and getting in front of them. You know, I have, you know, again going in, not necessarily couples, but just to give an example, I have a first responder who came in. He's in his 20s, who, what's a better relationship with his girlfriend? Doesn't want to screw it up. So he's like she doesn't want to go to couples counseling. But I'm coming to you because I want to work it. I want to work it out. I'm like, damn, if you told me that 20 years ago, when I got my masters, I said that's never gonna happen. So I see it myself.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I love that. It makes me very happy to see people doing that.
Speaker 3:Especially when I see men doing it because they're not coming in, calling me out of desperation, being like my wife wants to leave me. What do I do? Help me save this marriage, because that's what I would get a lot of in in a lot, especially some of the older generations. And Now I'm just seeing with the complete opposite, with the younger generations being like I want like kind of like what you said. I want to work on this. Even if we're not working at it together, I want to deal with my stuff. Good for you.
Speaker 2:And I think that we're gonna see that more if we keep on giving this message and I think that's why, you know, it's so important for us to say it out and people kind of get into our conversation. You know, in regards to that, that's why I do it this way for my podcast. There's so many other things I want to say about couples counseling, because I think that that's I've done couples counseling, but most come in with, like you know, major riffs over several years and saying, okay, I want you to fix it. Well, just for the record, I don't know about you and again I'm gonna ask you a rhetorical, not a rhetorical. I really want your answer. But have you ever fixed anyone in your life?
Speaker 3:I'm not even fixed right.
Speaker 2:That's my answer to I See, I love I knew I, I knew I loved you. But there's many reasons why. But that's another part. I like the same thing. I'm still fucked up. Why would I be able to help other people? But I do have advice.
Speaker 3:Right, I'm doing the same work that you're doing, like I will. My marriage will look just like yours if I am doing the things that you're doing Right, like I still have to do the same things if I'm not exempt from it. I'm not like above you in any way. I don't see myself as some like expert or healed human. It's just we're all in the muck together. I'm like a human first and therapist second.
Speaker 2:So I tell people and I remind people that I'm in therapy and I always say to people like I'm fucked up and just fucked up differently than you are, and the other part too, I think, and you'll agree again hey, you can tell me what you do, but I always remind my clients. I'm like I'm giving you advice that I don't follow, that I follow myself. If I gave you advice that I don't follow myself might as well just be a liar, and I don't lie to my clients.
Speaker 3:Right, yeah. Yeah, I'm not. I don't sugarcoat things, I don't bullshit, this is just what it is. And I can't tell you how many times I've had people thank me for that because, like they didn't have therapists that were Real, like they were just like being people. They were just very like clinical and again that detached, like I'm above you place, like if they asked something about you know how, what do you do in your marriage? I'd be like, well, why is that important to you? Like that kind of therapist?
Speaker 3:for, like to me, I'm just like I'll tell you what I do in my marriage, like this is what works for us, and like, take, it or leave it right, like we'll have to do the same thing, but like this is what's helpful and I don't see a problem with that and people seem to really benefit from hearing. I.
Speaker 2:Think that that we talked about generational stuff I'd say it started with the Gen X people, but it really has really evolved more recently with the other generations is that Authenticity is a lot more valued than professionalism and I don't mean we're not professionals by any stretch of the imagination. I Act professionally. I don't say what you're gonna tell me about my problems no, I don't do that. But I think that authenticity is what you know and, again, what drama draws me to when we work together and then also Through your Instagram. It's that authenticity and I think that a lot of my clients say that exactly like, hey, you look, you're kind of like a friend. I say, yeah, I'm a paid friend but nonetheless a friend.
Speaker 2:I just don't, you know, hear about my shit and people laugh, but truthful, I think that authenticity and being able to be there and not saying vulnerable and like talk about your heart problems. But you know, people have asked me how did I go through your divorce? I kind of give no Specific details, like, yeah, we had moments of difficulties, we had moments that were good, and there was moments today that we look back and we laugh about. And I still talk to my ex-wife Regularly and we're not, we're friendly. We're not friends, but we're friendly. And yeah, you don't have to be hostile to your ex and most people like no, I'm not gonna be that way.
Speaker 3:Choose whatever you want, right, I get. You have a choice. I want to do things.
Speaker 2:But I think that that's why, like, I appreciate you for who you are and I know that you're starting a new program and I want to hear more about it.
Speaker 3:Yeah, so I I'm starting to do more coaching, like packages where it's like maybe like 10 sessions and we're just getting through one kind of big issue that you're wanting to deal with and that's it. It's pretty. It's much more like objective or goal oriented. Then maybe therapy might be where it's like a little bit more like background information and stuff, where it's very like let's get from point A to point B In these, in these 10 sessions.
Speaker 3:I also want to relaunch an online course and coaching program that I started a few years ago that I had to kind of put on pause Because the pandemic, and then I lost the family and then baby showed up and like there was a lot going on. So eventually I want to get back into that. But it was relational intelligence work for men. So I worked with like a few men and like that first beta program and I loved it and I thought it was, you know, really great resource Thought. It was weird at first to have like be like a female working with men and I don't know why that was Felt so weird, because a lot of the men did feel more comfortable sometimes talking to a female therapist or female coach. But yeah, I'd like to start that again.
Speaker 2:So those are all good programs and you know, I think that men tend to open up better to women because that's their soft skill versus men's soft skill. So I certainly see that. So I think it's even better when it's a woman. And you know, again, I don't want to get on the soapbox too long here, but just had a conversation with someone else. I said some women want to work with a man so that they can see that there are safe men out there and I like to be part of that safe men generation. For. So then like, oh, you're a nice guy, I'm like there's other nice guys yeah, you had crap, but there's nice people out there. But anyway, I think that's probably why it works, because you have that quote soft skill and they feel a little more vulnerable With you and feel okay being vulnerable.
Speaker 3:So just saying, yeah, that relationship can be healing too. I can thinking with those women working with you, with safe men.
Speaker 2:That can be really, really beneficial and having a woman like you who is also kind of like truthful and very direct and to the point, I think helps men and that will help them in their couple. And being able to have a the safe woman in their lives is also as important. Because there's always that fear of can I be safe with women? And I know that that sounds really weird for some men and women, but it's the truth. I see it a lot. But if we want to join these Programs, where can we find them?
Speaker 3:So the best place would be to follow me on Instagram so that you can know when these things are happening, or go to my website, yvanna LMFT comm. There's like a little newsletter that you can sign up for. I can send out like when I'm actually starting these programs and You'll be first to know about them.
Speaker 2:So and if I can link them in my show notes, I will definitely do that, so I'm looking forward to that. And if we find you on Instagram, how are we gonna find you with your name or?
Speaker 3:So I'm at get relational with Yvanna I.
Speaker 2:Kind of knew that, but I figured I just throw it out there for people to know. Well, yvanna, I can't tell you how much I appreciate you as a human being, but also for everything we talked about. I mean, it's been almost an hour so I figured we should probably end it here, but I truly appreciate you. I'm finally happy to get to know you and I hope we talk soon.
Speaker 3:Yeah, same, I appreciate what you're doing here, because this is very much needed to have therapy be talked about in this way.
Speaker 2:So thank you for inviting me, for having me on you'll always be invited if you ever want to come back. It'd be great to have you on with a conversation with a sex therapist that's been asking me to come on, so might be interesting. Well, that completes episode 144 of Vanna Colangelo. Now I know I said it right. Thank you so much. I hope you guys go check her out. It's and she has a new coaching program, which is awesome, so I hope you go and listen to that. But episode 145 will be the first part of two. With a colleague of mine, catherine Branca. We've worked together on a research. We want to share it everyone, so I hope you join us then.
Speaker 1:Please like, subscribe and follow this podcast on your favorite platform. A glowing review is always helpful and, as a reminder, this podcast is for informational, educational and entertainment purposes only. If you're struggling with a mental health or substance abuse issue, please reach out to a professional counselor for consultation. If you are in a mental health crisis, call 988 for assistance. This number is available in the United States and Canada.