In this first episode of 2023 and season 7, we speak to Jake Nichols. Jake discusses his journey from when he was young, his use of substances over the years and how recovery is the toughest yet best thing he has ever done. Pat Rice joins us, playing the role of co-host, as well as talking of his knowledge of Jake, recovery, and all that is the world of addiction.
Jake Nichols is a pharmacist in long-term recovery from substance use and has been working in the addiction field for over 12 years. He is an advocate and resource for evidence-based treatment approaches and stigma reduction. Jake enjoys facilitating. patient and parent support groups.
His book: "Unfit For Recovery" is available at this link .
In this first episode of 2023 and season 7, we speak to Jake Nichols. Jake discusses his journey from when he was young, his use of substances over the years and how recovery is the toughest yet best thing he has ever done. Pat Rice joins us, playing the role of co-host, as well as talking of his knowledge of Jake, recovery, and all that is the world of addiction.
Jake Nichols is a pharmacist in long-term recovery from substance use and has been working in the addiction field for over 12 years. He is an advocate and resource for evidence-based treatment approaches and stigma reduction. Jake enjoys facilitating. patient and parent support groups.
His book: "Unfit For Recovery" is available at this link .
Hi, and welcome to finding your way through therapy. I'm your host, Steve Bisson. The goal of this podcast is to demystify therapy, what can happen in therapy, and the wide array of conversations you can have in therapy. I also talked to guests about therapy, their experience with therapy, and how psychology is present in many places in their lives. They also share personal stories. So please join me on this journey about there. Hi, and welcome to episode 82 of finding your way through therapy or the premiere episode of season seven. My name is Steve Bisson. If you haven't listened to Episode 81 yet, please do so Rachael Fletcher was the episode of the year just a great interview about recovery. And I really enjoyed talking about that. You can also go back to listen to the 12 days of Christmas plus two, which were a great messages from people who have been on my podcasts. But episode 82 will be with Jake Nichols and Pat Tocr. We're going to talk about Jake Nichols first because Jake Nichols is a pharmacist in long term recovery. He's just written a book called “unfit for recovery“ which has just been released. He's been working in the addiction field for over 12 years and as an advocate and resource for evidence based treatment approaches and stigma reduction. He facilitates patient and parent support groups across the area in Massachusetts, and also just a great human being I really liked talking to him prior to this interview. So I hope the interview goes well. And Pat rice is going to be on this interview Pat rice has been on what four episodes before this. And Pat rice is the one who recommended Jake and they've known each other for a while and wonder if they're gonna talk about that relationship. Jake Nichols book again is unfit for recovery just released. So can't wait to talk about that. And here is the interview. Well, Hi, and welcome to the premiere episode of Season Seven again, believe we got the season seven of finding your way through therapy. I am Steve Bisson. This is also YouTube Channel episode 19. I know you're gonna recognize one of the faces if he moves his finger. Of course, that Pat rice, one of the things that I want to say about Pat rice most downloaded episode ever, I think you heard it a couple of weeks ago on my podcast, that you're number one on several seasons, but you're ultimately Wow, for the last seven seasons. So there's two ways of thinking about it. Congratulations. And there's a lot of pressure, depending on how you want to look at it.
Patrick Rice:It's always a balance, I experience neither actually it's just nice to know that some of the stuff that we're all interested in others are as well. That's that's the gratifying things very gratifying.
Steve Bisson:And as usual, Pat brings in a wonderful guests. I don't know Jake Nichols, I know of Jake Nichols, based on some LinkedIn stuff and everything else. But Jake Nichols is someone that I want to meet because he released a book about three days ago. And I read part of it. I'm not gonna lie. I didn't read the whole thing. I'm just honest. But I really enjoyed what I've read so far. So there's gonna be a lot of questions based on that. But Jake Nichols, welcome to finding your way through therapy.
Jake Nichols:Yeah, thanks, Steve. truly an honor to be here and look forward to the conversation.
Steve Bisson:It's gonna be a mindful conversation. But we also got to keep that on track. So you need to help me on this one.
Patrick Rice:Yeah, fair enough. True enough?
Steve Bisson:There's a couple of standard questions I asked for this podcast. And the first one is, who are you? And tell me a little bit about yourself? Yeah,
Jake Nichols:it's a loaded question. Where do I start with that one. So I'm a pharmacist, I've been working directly in the substance use disorder field for about 12 years, which also correlates the amount of time I've been in long term recovery, I had a 15 year history of substance use, that really kicked off when I was in pharmacy school, and culminated in 2010, with a somewhat typical story of, you know, legal issues, financial issues, marital issues, and, and everything that comes with that. And like many, that's how I found my way into this field. I've been very lucky and very blessed to be able to work in this field and share my experiences with others that are struggling with this or with families that are struggling with this.
Steve Bisson:Now, what do you do in the field? I know you say you're a pharmacist, but I'm assuming that's not what you're talking about when you say your work in the field.
Jake Nichols:Correct? Yeah, so I've been I've been involved in many roles. It started out working with pharma companies on the medical side, doing a lot of educational work, and really guiding clinicians on what I like to call the evidence based treatment side of of addiction treatment and proper use of medications and ancillary services, social services and so forth, based on my openness with my experience, too, and part of what I did very early on, reluctantly at first was when I started sharing my own personal experiences and kind of tying that into the education around treatment, you know, weaving in again, my experiences with the treatment system and so forth. And that opened more opportunities than I could ever have possibly imagined. And in 2017, I was able to form my own Consulting Group, where since that time, I've just been, again, very lucky, very blessed. I'll say that many times during the conversation, but to be involved in many different aspects of addiction treatment from working with correction systems to doing expert witness testimony, you know, had my own clinic for a period of time outpatient treatment program. You know, I've worked with digital companies that have apps for addiction support. So a lot of different things, which is part of what makes it interesting, but also helps to continue to bolster my own recovery.
Steve Bisson:Well, I appreciate that. Number one, number two, the apps. I mean, there's a lot of them. There's a few of them that I'm questioning, and some of them are really good. So I'm happy that someone with experience is finally consulting on those. Yes, yes. What do you know about Jake about this? Beginning of the processes Consulting has 15 years of recovery and stuff like that?
Patrick Rice:Well, he's he's on my speed dial. If I have a question about, and it's been very useful, my number out there was your
Jake Nichols:friend, you've been replaced, Stan,
Patrick Rice:it's a lot. It's a long list. If we need all the help we can get in this in this field. But it's he came across my desk, I forget how and he reminded me of this, and I forgot and when we're talking about the book, and, and all of this one night over dinner, as I recall him, and I said, Geez, how do we meet and he said, You saw me, it was true, which is pretty rare. It's I forget how you know, it's through the grapevine you hear about someone and he said that, apparently, I reached out and said, it may be good to have a conversation, you know, being a recovering clinician, myself, and he was starting his path. And, and so that's how it began, I kind of became a mentor, really, and it's continued right straight through. And as Yoda told Obi Wan, when they both were on the other side of it, you know, there is a joyous pain of being a mentor is that pretty soon you sit there and you watch your mentees Eclipse you which is joyful. And if it bothers you at all, you got some more work to do yourself. But for me, it's he's a really, really smart guy, who cares. He's been all over this country at conferences and whatever, he will go anywhere to talk to people, he'll go anywhere to talk to pharmacists. And he's done that and, and frankly, as we all know, I worked in a hospital system for a long time is that the doctors don't know much about medicine. My first call was always to Colleen, who was the chief pharmacist in the hospital because she knew everything about minutes. And when we got into the opiates, and buprenorphine, and we were involved in the groundwork of the buprenorphine stuff, it just became he became a tremendous resource. And I just I really check in all the time just to see where he's been, what continent, he's been on talking about, what he knows. And so here's his indefatigable kind of energy to just go, kind of like the other guy, I'm looking at the screen, we do what we do, because the work meat is meaningful to us at a very deep level. But also, there's so much of it, there's so much need for it. So that's how I recall it kind of an it's just evolved into this wonderful friendship now, so
Steve Bisson:you know, what I find always fascinating, Pat, is that you have a story for everyone you've ever met. And no, but that's a trip, because sometimes I go like, Oh, I meet Pat. Forget,
Patrick Rice:or he had to remind the story kind of fill in the blank, you know,
Steve Bisson:I You're ripe, ripe age of what? 6263? We can understand the memory has been affecting you.
Jake Nichols:Yeah, and you get a pass.
Patrick Rice:It was hey, well, you know, I will be 75 and march and St. Patrick's days. I wasn't gonna say that. I was just I know both Hey, I'm just it's is my guides have told me it was they had a hard time keeping me alive for a lot of that period of time. So yeah. It's again, every day is a blessing. The greatest Buddhist sense is that you wake up and what can I do today? And I just would like to say that you somehow put this whole thing on my calendar. Steve, you sent me some put it on my calendar. I don't know anything about this. All I had to do when I brought it up. Sorry. I have one on my account. I went and it popped right into this.
Steve Bisson:I am getting so this podcasting. It's unbelievable. Mine. I mean, your email, I'm everywhere. Yeah.
Patrick Rice:It's just everywhere. You are amazing. There's no doubt about it. But so I am honored to be witnesses. I said that there was a selfish thing to be a part of this is that I get to hear the podcast first.
Steve Bisson:I like to think that despite the book being out for a couple of days now I will be one of the first interviews and I picked that as a great honor. So I do appreciate it's an honor. You know, Pat has always been open about his treatment stuff. He's been in treatment, some All times he's show that on the podcast. But I want to ask you, Jake, because this is a standard question, because it's finding your way through therapy. Right? So have you ever been in treatment, I'm assuming so but let's
Jake Nichols:talk about it. Yeah, therapy was a part of my life very early on, I started struggling with depression and anxiety 1718. And, again, it was no surprise to my family very long, and very deep roots in our family with behavioral health issues and addiction issues. And I saw a therapist very early on early through college and for many years and was medicated at the time. And then it's that age, tends to evolve and you think you're indestructible, and my substance use takes off, I kind of got away from it. And it wasn't until I went into treatment in 2010, where therapy became a cornerstone, really the foundation of my recovery. When I met Pat, and just to tell, you know, how it how it happened. I had a family friend who was in treatment, who was a patient of Pat's, and he had mentioned to pat that, you know, he had a friend who was struggling and looking for help. And as Pat said, it's not something he normally did. But one day my phone rang. And it was this guy who just introduced himself as a therapist at our local hospital here in Natick. And he said, I heard you need some help, and you'd love to come see me, I'd be happy to chat with you. And I said, Well, I don't have any money right now I'm really not interested in therapy says I don't want your money. I just, you know, let's come in, have a chat. And, and that really kind of kicked things off between us, I mean, putting aside his personal experiences, because that's not something he shared with me early on, we just clicked Pat is I've always called pat my Yoda of recovery, as he kind of alluded to, and to call him a therapist doesn't quite do it justice, he's a guide. And the most effective thing about Pat, in my experience has been his ability to listen, its ability to process and to get you to kind of arrive at those conclusions and do the work that you have to do to get where you need to be. And the book is a great example of that. His guidance with this, especially early on was a huge part of it. So I'm jaded when it comes to addiction and substance use treatment, I think everybody should at least be evaluated and participate in therapy early on. Because we all have issues. We all have things that contribute to our substance use and perpetuate it. It's one of those things that kind of makes my skin crawl when I hear a clinician say, Well, I don't think the patient needs therapy, or I haven't approach that discussion with the patient, to just I feel we're doing them a disservice if at least we don't offer that and explore it.
Steve Bisson:Well, if you ask me, there's a couple of things. We all need therapy, we don't all need weekly therapy, but we all need therapy. That's one of my views of therapy. Number two, I think we're all addicted to something. I think we have behavioral addiction. Some people say some addictions are good, like working out and stuff like that, in my opinion, sometimes that can also be abusive and detrimental to you. So there's no such thing as someone. And that's my own theory that we're all addicted to something, some of it a little better than others, obviously, but want to make sure that we're on the same page on that if I find it also interesting when I hear clinicians like oh, I didn't screen up for substance use, why I scream everyone for substance use, whether they say it or not, I don't care.
Patrick Rice:You start there. It's our entire generation of students and whatever and stay it every day is that you start the one thing that will explain everything, when you're dealing with someone the first time you rule that out, because the one thing I'll explain everything, there's some kind of substance use, there is no mental illness that substitutes it the sequelae of it poor nutrition, sleep deprivation, that it can mimic, it mimics virtually every psychiatric disorder, personality and organic. So you start there. And it's remarkable just how much people seek like Jake did and many of us as you seek medication, the first time you use a drug that will eventually become a problem. It seems like magic. All this stuff is this is amazing. Well, you know the oh, if it seems too good to be true, it is. But it's I think it really is important to when I was trained in a system, that chemical dependency program treatment program where two diagnoses were given. And this was part of the mentor that I had. He started out with some kind of substance use disorder or poly substance use or something. And then unresolved grief. And because it's all grief work is that you postpone you know even even the healthy addictions, quote, unquote, the healthy addictions that working out and stuff Ultra marathoners. Listen, I ran a marathon yesterday and we're gonna do 50 More starting tomorrow and well, that's going to be a distraction from something that's the Forrest Gump syndrome. No, run, Forrest run. Well, eventually he had this he stopped running and went back and grieve, Jenny. That's what we do and And as I've said this many times, probably every podcast, he said, we're not supposed to put the bumper sticker on the car that says, Take my advice. I'm not using it. Yeah, right. Now, so everybody I know everybody here is authentic. And we believe in our, what we do. And we've also seen the benefits of it in which I think gives us authenticity. If we're taking your own advice, we noticed like, I bought several copies of Steve's book and it was just, it's a perfect reading, because it's, it's, it's a, it's a nugget, you can pick it up at anytime you can bounce around, and it has all those little pieces of wisdom, kind of like living sober, that famous book and AAA which just has all of the nuts and bolts that people need. When they're contemplating this process, it really demystifies it. And it's not an easy thing to demystify. So
Steve Bisson:there's a couple of things because I want to talk about your book. But one of the things I want to tap into the pharmacists in you because from my perspective, when my clients asked me questions in regards to substances, or even like mental health, having a medication, and like, there's pros and cons, if you think this is going to be your savior, that this is going to be what saves you because you're taking medication, then I don't recommend medication. Yeah, I agree. And I don't know how you approach it, Jake. But I wanted to hear your your view. I know, I obviously want to hear Pat's view, but start with you, Jake. Because I see it as therapy when medication works. Medication only doesn't work therapy sometimes can work on its own, but medication can help the process.
Jake Nichols:Yeah, yeah, I think my views have evolved on it. I mean, coming out of pharmacy school, where you're you're taught, there's a medication for every sort of ailment, whether it's behavioral or medical, you know, kind of sets, you sets the stage for your opinions on medication treatment. And again, as time has gone on, and my own personal experiences, and primarily working in the behavioral and addiction field. It's a tool to tool just like many other tools we have in our toolbox. And one of the things that frustrates me for clinicians in this field is it seems like we almost have siloed approaches, people like you kind of laid out Steve may just solely believe in therapy, or one approach to treatment where others just solely use medication, which rarely, rarely works. So again, I've really evolved my views on that, as you said very, very well. There are pros and cons to medications, medications alter the body. And most of the time, that's for the positive for a therapeutic effect we're seeking but there are drawbacks. There are side effects to every medication. Medications don't always work, especially when we're talking about behavioral health medication. So we may have to cycle through multiple ones to find ones that work for us. So anytime I'm talking to a parent and a patient, especially I tried to set expectations around that, that it's a tool. And without you doing the work and seeking the guidance of those that have been down the path before us or have engaged with with multiple folks like us that have struggled, the likelihood of you being successful in the end is reduced. Right?
Steve Bisson:I like how you put that. But I wanted to to pat and hear your opinion on that because I think we're on the same page, obviously. So
Patrick Rice:Well, certainly in the addiction field, the dual diagnosis field, it's been controversial because a lot of mislabeling or benzodiazepines and other sedative hypnotic drugs have been labeled antidepressants, and they can have an addiction, addictive history as well. The thing that I have been to this day, you know, I've been at this 30 Some ideas to this day is that the people that pull the prescription pad out, right medication don't really know what it's doing. They get their information from companies or from colleagues or whatever, but it's since we know, barely 20% of how the brain actually works. And most of these treat brain in some way. I do a lot of research myself and I try to explain patients and it's rare that I find a patient that has actually heard this before when I say well, you know an SSRI like Prozac or Zoloft or Lexapro or whatever, commonly used prescribed by a lot of internists and OBGYN and whatever people who do do internal medicine essentially, very commonly done, and they have a good effect on a lot of things. But they're, as Jake said, they're not a cure all and what, what I basically tell people, this is something that if it works for you, it makes you available for the treatment. It's not a cure for it to be nice to just take a pill but what what an SSRI does is it slows down a hyper vigilant response a little bit and it encourages your body to make serotonin in the gut and so that it balances out what you have in your brain which is norepinephrine and serotonin imbalance. The norepinephrine is winning, and that is the brain's adrenaline. So you're hyper vigilant and everything. The other pieces I always work on sleep and nutrition because Those things contribute to it can actually be the cause of it. And people who are anxious and depressed and whatever often don't need I had one fellow once that fairly newly sober and he did it so but he was a contractor and I saw him after I treated him, he was pretty stable. And I saw him three or four weeks later after he had gone back into work. And he was like the most manic person I've ever seen. You know, he couldn't even sit still. And so I just go right to the head, do you sleep? I'm having a hard time. And so what do you eat every day, basically roll around his truck, and he had a whole bag of Reese's Peanut Butter Cups in the case of Pepsi every day. Honestly, I think I think I die if that but that was what so he was jacked on sugar and caffeine, and whatever else is in all of that stuff, and he stopped doing that stuff. And he came back in as it as a much more grounded sanction person and turns out that then the medication that they some SSRI actually helped him. And he became available for about two years of really in depth, family of origin stuff, you know, that was the typical stuff we see. So often, you grew up in a very dysfunctional home and, and you get a very confused start to life and your orientation to adult living. And so, but I really wanted people if you're gonna take a medication to know what it does and what the nutritional requirements are for it. And I'll get I'll just I've said this before, is that there's a second one psychiatrists that knows a lot about this, and they get curious about it. His name is Jim Greenblatt, I bet Jake's met him. And he's an integrative guy, he's trying to redefine how psychiatry is. And he's training a whole new generation of psychiatrists about what actually we're doing. And so, Jake is one of those pioneers in this field. Now, I've been trying to explain it to people, but I didn't know much about it. But now we get the science behind it as well. And this whole new generation of pharmacists, and physicians and prescribers is going to actually start to treat the underlying disorder. I think, as this as we get refined and not be treated. Similarly, we've all been treating symptoms. That's what using alcohol for grief, does it treat symptoms, you know, it can treat a broken leg with morphine, and it works about 10 minutes, and you still can't you still fall down? If you get up? So yeah,
Steve Bisson:I still think about, you know, why do we take like the pain medication, I still don't comprehend that we got to orally take something from my knee. I just don't get it. And that's just my view of the pharmaceutical world that like if my knees hurting, there should be something that concentrates on my knee, not that I'm going to take orally goes through across my body. And then like, yeah, of course, I don't even think about my knee at one point when I take those medications. But yeah, I do agree like the education of people, whether it's exercise, what's an SSRI? And the other thing to to, again, I know, throw it to both of you. And you can tell me what you think. I know that they can help with some symptomology. But the first six months of sobriety I go, like, let's chill about your symptoms, because these are your symptoms based on recovery, not your symptoms of whatever might be the mental health issue behind it. But I don't know what you guys think.
Jake Nichols:Yeah, no, I'm a firm believer in that too. And that's something I it's something to remind clinicians about, again, I've been very appreciative about how many general practitioners have gotten on board and seen it as their duty to treat patients that are struggling with substance use. But they're not necessarily psychiatrists. They're not necessarily trained in the behavioral health side of things. And as you both have alluded to, when somebody comes into treatment, and Pat said it really well, it's really hard to tease out, is this an issue of substance use? Or is this an issue of behavioral health that's been untreated or poorly treated. And I think until we can, we can get some time and recovery and get some time away from those substances that we've been using. It's impossible to be able to tease that out and to be able to kind of focus on those things. So it's something I frequently remind clinicians about, and really encourage them to get behavior lists in the mix ASAP.
Patrick Rice:It's the having been one of the people that started this while I was invited into it. I didn't start it. But the first dual diagnosis taskforce and Metro West, we had a lot of training by a wonderful psychiatrist David Meili. And he was a dual diagnosis guru and he, yeah, he's still I still see him. I see fit conferences to his because he really explains it well, but he always said and it's the standard thing is you have whatever it is, you have to treat the substance use first. You start there because and one of the people that you both know that is retired, unfortunately, my friend Mary, Dr. Mary Mulaney. She wants to ask me, she said, Pat, how long do you think it takes someone in their complete continuous clean and sober recovery? Before you can do a psychiatric workup on that? I said at least six months. It takes that long for the brain to settle down and it's like when you have a storm and then the wind come was the next day well, the wind is a side effect of this of the storm. And then we need to let the Winds subside before you can rake the leaves and sort things out. So it's this is it's nice to see this getting into the mainstream addiction field is the less treat the addiction first. And the last thing that a lot of people need early in, even if they have dual diagnosis symptoms is a lot more heavy medication. I worked in detoxes and I worked in a psych unit. So it all looks the same for about three or four days. Everyone's walking around in a semi stupor. And then things start to shift out in different dimensions are arenas or silos is fixed. So this really encouraging that this is starting to really happen the way I always hoped or that we started to explain what's actually going on to the patients do you want to make the patient the best customer they can be?
Steve Bisson:I always like your approach back because I think that that's what all three of us have in common. And I think that this is the next generation is that down to earth straightforward type of work, and I want to give you credit and props for that, because I think that's what people are gonna respond with. Gone are the days where the therapist wears a suit and tie in his nose, everything gone are the days where the pharmacist stands, 15 feet above everyone. I know everything. I think that that's the good stuff that you just talked about. And I always think about when you say, addiction recovery, I, if there's a loved one, if they have they still have loved ones because someone sometimes they don't. But if they have a partner or a family member, whoever it is, I just say, Uh, can I meet them after two or three sessions? Because I tell them, I'm like, if you think they're going to be better next week or next month, you're sadly mistake, you're going to have to wait for about six months before they start kind of like the fog starts lifting for real. And I think that educating the family on that is so important, because a lot of families well, you've been sober for two months, why are you still in bed? Because I had an addiction for 10 years. So my brain still screwed up. But I think that
Patrick Rice:the brain is often depleted.
Steve Bisson:And I think that's one of aspects of recovery that I really like us to talk about to family members, or friends or neighbors or whoever they want it because they explained that. But you know, I'm gonna throw this to Jake, what other aspects of recovery are important to help people achieve the long term recovery they want?
Jake Nichols:Yeah, I mean, without question, and this is a big theme in the book is support network, I've been very lucky to have an incredible support network from the get go. It truly is what makes all the difference. And also being a scientist to healthcare provider at heart. You know, when I entered recovery, I started doing kind of an informal study of talking to people who had achieved recovery and seeing what the common threads were. And there were two in my mind. One is they acknowledge the work that was ahead of them, and they put their head down and they went at it, and did the work that was necessary to get there and to just as important was their support network. And that goes beyond clinicians are an essential part of it, especially at the beginning. But having a group of folks around you that a you can turn to when you're struggling and you feel comfortable having those conversations with them. But just as importantly, having a group of people that will call you out when they suspect something and I don't want to use the word suspect, but you know, something is off, something is going on, you know, are you okay? I'm concerned, you know, what can I do to help in being comfortable with that, that group to be able to say, okay, yeah, I am struggling? When in here's what's going on. So to me that that is, you know, an absolutely essential part of it. And, you know, if I could add one more piece to that it's it's service. You know, I think we're all, let's say required, but I think it's incumbent upon us to share our strength, hope and love, as we like to say and show others that it is possible to beat this, that it is possible to thrive, it's possible to come back from this. It's possible to be fulfilled professionally and personally. And again, it seems like it's impossible at the beginning. And again, being a clinician, I can understand that having gone through it, I can understand it, your brain is telling you it's impossible. You know, your brain has been rewired to tell you you can't do this. But that will heal in time, as Pat said, and you can do this and when you do. The sense of accomplishment that you have without becoming complacent by any means is something that is just indescribable.
Patrick Rice:We hear a lot of people and it's the early step work. The in depth middle step work is about self forgiveness. Because what keeps the addiction going is negative feelings about self and then you can that creates the more power to the dissociative aspects of substance use. And it's a misnomer to say I hate myself. A self is spirit you can hate this spiritual core your heart what we hate is Are behave. So I have the fields called behavioral health. And we see, you know, you change the behavior first and the rest of it says to follow, but you have complete control over behavior. And your opinion of yourself changes with time. And sometimes that is the mental illness, if you will, the way people feel it feels toxic, but they are toxic for a while. But they have a toxic opinion of themselves based upon smart people doing the same things over and over again, that they promised themselves, they wouldn't do this most unsafe place there is. So that's the thing about recovery programs and every spiritual program, whether you're a Buddhist or whatever, has selfless service in it. That whole concept of doing for others is how you get out of your own head, and it feeds to heart. And that's the source of love. And whatever you want to call the energy that keeps the universe going Love is a good, it's got a name as anything on the label. But that's part of it. And it also allows you to know you're not alone, right. And it's amazing to see someone an early recovery, I've told many people, if you are a one week sober, you're much more relevant to the guy that's three hours sober than I am. Because he wants to know what the next six days are gonna look like, not what the next 30 years are gonna look like, or whatever. So you can be right in that very, very soon. So I think that's a really important point to the service aspect of it.
Steve Bisson:And I think that what I liked also what you said, Pat, is that self service doesn't have to be in a typical 12 step model, you can serve in different ways. And I think that that's what I really liked what you just said,
Patrick Rice:it feeds the soul that feeds the heart is to just go you know, go volunteer someplace, or the the random act of kindness. Whatever it is, you see it on street corners every day. It's not what they put on in the newspapers. But if you sit and observe, you'll see people being gentle and kind and nice and helpful to other people. More so it used to be more mainstream, I think, but it's coming back. It's making a comeback. Thank God. Yeah.
Steve Bisson:And I think that, you know, a few weeks ago, I put a, I put this on my social media. The opposite of self hate is not self love. It's self acceptance. And learning to accept oneself. I think love is important. Obviously, I'm not saying it's not important, but we tend to run from one end to another, I think the only went into another sobriety. Sobriety is not like a middle ground type thing. But I think that learning to accept ourselves, you said self forgiveness, I want to add self acceptance, because it is what it is I did what I did, I only have today, again, very Buddhist thought process, I get it. But that's how I perceive it. I don't know what you think, Jake. But
Jake Nichols:yeah, that's exactly the way I feel. And you know, the other thing to keep in mind, it's a perpetual process, you don't reach a point where you're, I've forgiven myself, I've accepted myself. There are days where I struggle with some of those that toxicity, as Pat said, and some of the things in those behaviors that I engaged in. And there are other days where much easier to move past it. But again, all we can do is continue to work on it and try to make amends when we can and keep bettering ourselves.
Steve Bisson:And I think that what I would continue talking about here is there's other factors that help us stay sober. And I know I saw a few things in your book in regards to that you talked about a little bit of having people around you that's very important. Do you think about other factors that might be important for people to have around them?
Jake Nichols:Yeah, again, I think a sense of, or being able to self reflect on a regular basis, you know, you hear this a lot again, and 12 Step. And to be clear, I'm not a diehard 12 Step guy, it was very useful to me, but and I've, as we say, I've kind of taken what I've needed and left the rest and but one of the things I got from that was the first thing I do every morning is wake up and I reflect on where I'm at, I remind myself where I've come from, I assess how I am that day, and define what I need to do to stay on that path. And that can be anything from being with my kids to traveling somewhere and discussing my own experiences or just talking to somebody that's struggling. It could be a variety of different things. But one of the things I talk about when I speak more so and a little bit in the book is you know, developing your own recovery recipe. Recovery is not a one size fits all process. And that's just as important of a statement to clinicians as it is to patients to families. And like you said, Steve, you know, the fact that you know, in two weeks, you're not going to be just up and running and everything is going to be great after you enter treatment to long term process and everybody is able to to, I guess achieved certain milestones at different times. So, you know, I've developed my own recovery recipe over the years, which involves the service aspect, it involves working in the field. It involves I'm keeping myself open and accessible to others that may want to seek me out for advice or guidance. And for me, there are other more personal aspects to to, you know, basically staying true to myself. One of the things that was very pervasive in my substance use history was lying, and dishonesty. And it was one of the things that I promised myself early on, that I would leave behind. So adhering to that, no matter how painful it may be, is really a personal marker for me as to how well I'm doing, you know, in my recovery, how easily I'm able to do that. So, you know, there's a lot of pieces to it, man. Again, it's very individualized, it's very personalized. But again, every day is a process where I wake up, and I define what pieces of that recipe I need today, stay on that path.
Steve Bisson:What about you bad
Patrick Rice:now, I would agree. The early morning, I interview people all the time, because I do a lot of evaluations, and then people full immersion and 12 step recovery works. For some people, it doesn't really work for others. It's always a smorgasbord. It's more important. It's a buffet,
Steve Bisson:you're not this is early, I'm supposed to be the one having
Patrick Rice:a good evening. That's all folks. But it's it said buffet aspect. And some of it you know, while I don't like these, and they don't like that word to this day, and to take what works. And you know, the proof of the pudding is that if you are experienced yourself in a more positive way that your opinion of yourself starts to shift. And the opinion of others around you reflects that the people we put in our network are the mirrors in which we see ourselves more clearly. And recovery people, we can't we don't really confront people, we care for our people, right. And we come from a place of not judging. And because we've been there, we've done it. So we come from a place of saying, Oh, just for nothing when you seem to be a little off today. And if someone gets defensive, he said, You seem a little defensive. We just speak to the behavior, but in an authentic way. But the rituals vary. I really love hearing the rituals that people do the literature that they read in the morning, meditate, all of these different things that we do. And the one piece I would add and I know that certainly Jake has been this because I used to see him most frequently at the gym is that he's one of those guys that picks things up at a heavy and puts them down a lot. But the the platform for addiction is a physiology of the body. It's a central nervous system that is physical, and is electrochemical, you know, thoughts or electricity, emotions and everything else are magnetic. That's how we operate. And the physical body needs to be addressed. And often, it didn't used to be addressed enough. And you know, you really have to, you have a lot of restless energy, in early recovery that can depress you or basically exhaust you in working the body in in an important way is very useful. I probably have said this before, but there was a legendary old farmer that ran a drop in center in downtown Framingham and he said, addicts and alcoholics need to walk. He says the angels talk to you when you walk. And it's just like tick, not Hans walking meditation is that when your legs are tired, what was bothering you, in your mind is not as important that sometimes the energy, the restless energy body goes up into the, forgive me the itty bitty shitty committee races around there. And that alters our perception of ourselves. And so when you get like that, we have people that we reflect upon this tool in this room, I could call up and say, Oh, geez, Pat, that seems like have you thought of this? And what was it? I've say this all the time, Einstein said you can't solve a problem of the same mind that created it. So we need colleagues we need people that can be an objective expert on us in that moment in time when we can't be and so one thing that recovery programs teach people right from day one is to basically seek that I think the Buddha once said that the the most precious resource a person can have is someone that will tell them the truth it's a resource you're supposed to guard with with all your beat.
Jake Nichols:Yeah, and I think just a kind of an add there that you know the gym for me was it checked multiple boxes, you know, was the exercise piece you know, the restless energy is the first reason I went but then I go and Pat's there and there's there was a core group of five guys there that have become my primary support network. 12 years later, there was that social aspect to it as well. And that became a huge huge part of my early recovery and my my continued recovery for
Patrick Rice:that matter. COVID Close that down. I really missed I missed the guy said This was a Saturday afternoon, it was like an AAA meeting there, frankly, a lot of
Steve Bisson:six years ago from where I used to live, and I went to the gym over there. Six years later, people still go like, Hey, you're not coming to our gym, I moved, I got something closer, and they still remember you. And there's a camaraderie that we you don't get somewhere else. And yeah, that I just want to go. I don't want to go too far down in the Buddhist thought process. But one of my favorite quotes of tick non Han is the way out is in. And when you're doing your sobriety stuff, and you're past that six month mark, I say, look, you're not gonna solve it out here. You're gonna solve it hidden here. So that's how you're gonna get out of it. And just wanted to throw that out. And the other thing that I also remind people, and this is I've said this on the podcast, and maybe you heard it, Jake, and if you haven't, I had someone who's had trouble staying sober. And he liked he saw a little wouldn't boot on my I might ask, and he's like, What says it's the Buddha. He's like, Can I have it as it's gonna keep you sober? He's like, Yeah, and he kept him sober for the whole time I saw him I don't know where he is today. But you know, like, we can't like I I'm okay with 12 steps. I'm not a 12 step guy, but I'm okay. I'm okay. With a wooden Buddha, I'm okay with whatever works as long as your sobriety is maintained. So having that plan that you talked about is so key. And I agree. But the other thing that I wanted to really address is that I don't there's there's not a competition, obviously. But you know, we've all had an addiction issue. At some point in time, all three of us. working in this field has helped me tremendously to understand even my own self, I'm not doing it for that reason, but it also helps. I want to go to first you, Jake, how is working in this field helped you get through your own addiction stuff and dealing with your own recovery?
Jake Nichols:Yeah, I think there's two aspects of that's a great question. Stephens, one of them is actually a lot. The first is is almost kind of like the, the reflection you get, when you first go to meetings, if you're into the 12 step thing, it normalizes what you went through to some degree. And for me, being a pharmacist, being somebody who was well respected in the profession, and well known, you know, when, when my issues came to light, I felt like I was the lowest form of low, there are people that would openly tell me that I betrayed them, I had betrayed my profession, I betrayed the public trust, you think your biggest piece of shit, pardon my language on the face of the earth. And, you know, it's not so much as you said, a competition, but you go in and you talk to other folks that have struggled, and you hear the Health's that they have been through over and over again. And you see how they've moved past that. And it almost gives you strength to say, Oh, my God, if they were able to overcome that, I can certainly overcome my issues, and move forward. And you you glean bits of wisdom from each one of those interactions. So first and foremost, it's engaging with other people that have been down the same road. And it's hearing how they've been able to not only achieve recovery, but maintain it. And that's, again, one of the big themes of my book is everything you need to be successful here and get past your own issues, whether it's addiction or other struggles is out there, you just need to talk to people you just need to read, you just need to do the work. Because my recovery and my recovery recipe is an amalgam of all the wisdom I've pulled from all the people that I've interacted with over the past 12 years. And it's almost like this big pile of mud, where I'm continuously just throwing pieces at it to make it bigger. And that's something I'll do literally until the day I die. So that's a big part of it. The other part of it is to see the progression of how we're doing in this field. And that's a big part of how much of a resource that can be like Pat said, you know, in the short time I've been working in this field, I've seen a lot of changes for the better who, again, as we talked about kind of looking at the whole patient approach. It's not just medication, it's not just therapy. It is the social determinants of health that we need to address. It's the nutrition, it's the spirituality, it's whatever it is that we need to look at, on the whole, to get this person to a place where they're able to do that work on their own, be comfortable with it. The attitude around the use of medications. I know when we talk about opioid use disorder. Again, when I started working in this field, 12 years ago, there were literally two camps. There were the abstinence guys, and there were the people that believed in MA T or medication for addiction treatment. Now we've come together and kind of found a lot of common ground. Again, I'm all for whatever approach works get you there. But the fact that we have medications that will keep people alive and prevent people from dying, and we're not using them, especially early on is mind baffling to me as a clinician But I've seen a lot of acceptance of that. The use of harm reduction, the use of all these other strategies to meet people where they're at. And that's also been an evolution on my part. If you asked me 12 years ago what I thought about having a safe injection facility, or putting Narcan or naloxone in the hands of everybody I want to say now that's that's enabling drug use. That's crazy. Well, we've considered that the numbers speak for themselves. We haven't made much traction. In the time that I've been working in this field, and it looks like it's going to continue to get worse, we need to do that. So again, long story short, is really keeping my finger on the pulse of things. And again, that bolsters my recovery, because it tells me there's hope, because a lot of those attitudes and that negativity I saw early on towards people that are struggling with substance use, has dissipated. And stigma has been reduced, we still got a long way to go. But we've made some great progress.
Steve Bisson:And I think the other thing before I ask Pat to go on to me, like the education piece is so important, because 20 years ago, you told me what I thought about na t i was in the camp of sobriety. Yeah. And when I got into MIT, and like, Okay, I'm at works. And then I realized I don't have to choose a camp. And being able to say, well, the other thing, too, that I always remind myself is that when I consult with Pat, or I consult with I haven't yet Jake, but I feel we're going to console. When I don't like I know something, then Jake says blah, blah, blah, about something I don't know. I'm like, Oh, I didn't know that. And getting that openness, instead of saying, No, this is my camp is always going to be key also in recovery for a whole lot of people. But that's just me.
Patrick Rice:I agree with Jacob in the beginning, most of us, especially the 12 step, which was an important part of my evolution, initially, especially but it was black and white thinking in there. And I think what changed that game is opioids. There's a when the synthetics came out, and the oxycontin hit in the days where heroin addict you could live for 50 years as a heroin addict, because it was not, if you didn't get cellulitis or something else, something systemic, or like that, because overdoses rare. You can't treat someone as dead. And I've watched hundreds of young people die. And that's what opens you up to anything, let's keep them going, meet them halfway, keep them alive long enough. And that's the whole goal. It's literally why there's food and a meetings, the food was to keep the street alcoholics alive, and a warm place and a cup of coffee, they didn't matter if you were drunk, or whatever, as long as you were quiet, you could sit there and they'd feed you, because you can't help someone. And the key with the spiritual aspect of it is that we have a false opinion of ourselves based upon this behavior and the distorted thinking and the distorted the toxicity of the body. And it takes a while for that to come around. And most of the people that I've worked with started out with harm reduction on the MA T, they eventually want to be free from it because they have outlived its usefulness. It's just, it's not working anymore, they don't need it. And so eventually, I think that there's a motive and they will only get better at the interventions to you know, even though their medical, whatever, you know, we're dealing with magnetic therapy for brain now and mood disorder and everything and I'm doing some quantum healing study about about that, which is all frequency and dealing with the resonance of the body that helps part of their facilitate the healing process. So gosh, we're only
Steve Bisson:a pet that is throwing stuff around just
Patrick Rice:it's, it's, it's, it's my broken arm and to be a speech impediment. It's yeah, but we're only going to get better at this. And I have become a pragmatic person like that. There's a heartbeat, there's hope. And what we do in this whole the whole field, including the recovery, community recovery, is we try to light the pilot like to share experience, strength and hope. And we've all what hooked me and keeps me going to this day is seeing the light come back on in someone's eyes. I was with having lunch yesterday with someone that is five or six years sober. That was someone I knew a relative of a colleague, and I was helpful in the beginning and to see that that the life and vitality and and of course he wants to get into the field now. It's just the way it is because of what they've learned. But it's a question of how do we serve our patients? Well, and I think that we have to keep learning as well because it is a dynamic fluid process where the the information is coming at us very quickly. And then Jake's Korea they're going to unlock brain, in my career, the unlock the human genome, and a few other things but they will get to the bottom Remember this. And I'll say one last thing about it is that we waste no inflammation. And we walk on the bones of those who didn't make it. And we figure out what they did that didn't work. And we try to eliminate it. And we then mind, just like we're doing here, we share the resources that have worked for us as individuals, and what we've seen in our patients, and we share that with anybody who has an interest, and wants to know this information, it's just a body. It's a compendium of knowledge that has had a high cost. And we were not supposed to waste that. And that's what keeps us going.
Steve Bisson:The other thing too, is not only are we going to unlock the brain, we're going to figure out how our gut has a lot more to do with addiction. Probably not in my lifetime, but hopefully in yours, Jake.
Patrick Rice:Yeah, you know, Ben to some conferences have been a lightning about the gut brain. No. And I said, I've said this before, but still a statistic that startled me and got my attention was is that there are many neurons in your gut is around the spinal cord. So we all know, the gut reactions, and and all of that, but you know, they figured out pretty much how the communication. So we are complete being, and it's only going to go forward from here. I am incredibly hopeful, relentlessly hopeful about this. And that's what keeps me going and watching it and others
Steve Bisson:as well. You know, might be a good question for you, Jake. I'll tell you what keeps me going, Pat is what I know, in life when I was 2020. I knew everything. 25 I kind of knew some things. Now what I know fits in the thimble and the size room. That's what keeps me going. That's what keeps me learning. I do get entrenched sometimes. And it pushes me to think differently. So I really appreciate that. But what about you, Jake, what, you know, we just talked about how we learned different things.
Jake Nichols:I think it's two things for me. I mean, Pat said it best. It's you know, when you provide some guidance to somebody, and you see that light come on at some point. And you hear they're successful. You know, I'll tell you a quick story. I do a lot of facilitating a parent support groups of a group have learned to cope here in Massachusetts, amazing, amazing group of people a group. And I hadn't spoken while I spoke a few weeks ago. And there was a woman on who came on. And after I finished said, you know, I don't know if you remember me. But I asked you to meet my son for lunch about six years ago. And I have a vague memory. But I remember was Worcester. We met where we met. And it's Oh, yeah, that's right. And how's he doing? Well, he's been in recovery for about six years now, five years now. And I get very emotional, didn't expect that. But I got very emotional because Pat and I have talked about this a lot. Sometimes you wonder if you're getting food, you know, sometimes you really wanted somebody. And I'm not there to give advice. Again, I take it as Patrick said, I'm there to provide my experience, and what's worked for me and you tell me your situation, I'll make some suggestions, if you want to take it great. But to hear that somebody did do that, and has been able to achieve that was unexpectedly emotional for me. So that's a big part of it, that the second part of it for me is I still have a lot of work to do. And whether this is right or wrong, I left a tremendous path of destruction in my wake. Financially, relationship wise, I have a lot of catching up to do. And that's primarily for my kids, I have two boys, 10 and 13, amazing, amazing kids that are the cornerstone of what keeps me on this path. And there's a lot I want to do for them that I wasn't able to do as a kid and that I feel that they deserve. Because they're good kids, they work hard. They have an incredible mother. And she definitely keeps them more on the straight and narrow path than I do. And but it's a very good dynamic, a very good balance. But But yeah, I still feel like I have a lot of work to do. And I can't tell you a day since I've entered recovery where I've got up and I've questioned whether or not I want to stay on this path and continue to do these things.
Steve Bisson:And I know you talk about your family in the book. So how about you share more a little bit about your book? Where can we find it and stuff like that? Because, again, having a conversation with Pat, an hour goes by really, really fast. And I just realized that we're getting close to that. So I wanted to really like kind of like, hear more about your book? Where can we find it and stuff like that?
Jake Nichols:Yeah. So the interesting thing is that the book is is really a almost a 10 year process said it was two and then that's what it took me to actually write it. But just a quick story. You know, I was very early in my recovery. And I'd taken a job of the pharmaceutical company, I was traveling a lot and sitting on planes, I said, you know, I need to put some of this on paper. And you know, I was in what they refer to as the pink cloud phase where I was, you know, I subtraction in my recovery. I was very I wanted to share everything with the world. And I mean, I literally banged out 50 pages of Microsoft Word document just from flights and I went in and they sat down with Pat is this when I was seeing him regularly in my early treatment, and I was telling him about this and he loved to go and he finished he said Look, if there's one thing that you ever listened to me about, I asked it to be this. I said, What's that? He says, wait until you have 10 years under your belt to finish this book. And I said, I began to question why he said, You'll understand when he got there. And I can't say how much that was true. You know, I had a unfortunate series of events in late 2020, I lost my job ended a long term relationship engagement, we're in the middle of COVID. And I just kind of reflected and said, now's the time. And, you know, 10 years had passed, and I just was in a place where it was just felt so right to really start this process again. And it started as a seer, really a self exploration. The How did I get here, you know, what was the series of events and you know, what was predetermined and what was environment. And it really was a very selfish undertaking, if I could say that from the beginning. And it really evolved into something more than that. And it's certainly my my story, you know, from beginning to end, and how those all those factors kind of contributed to it. But it also, from somebody in the outside looking into it, I hope that they can see that continuing to get up every time you fall is a big part of this, that support network is a very big part of this, and that life is hard. And you know, ultimately, we do live in a world that's unfit for recovery. And we have to do the work to make sure we stay on that path, and we keep ourselves fit for recovery. So then it is kind of that an ended as you know, here's what I've done. And here's what I've learned. And I hope some of you can take some of this away, and apply it to your own situation. And again, regardless of whether it's addiction or any other struggle, you keep fighting, it will pay off. It will
Steve Bisson:I need to say the name of the book is unfit for recovery. What's the rest of it? Is there like a little thing another tag under tips living
Jake Nichols:in a world? That? Gosh, you had to ask me that?
Steve Bisson:You know, we went but I think it's on the cover. But yet, you know what? I liked that. And there's, you know, I remember you telling me there's two meanings done fit for recovery. So,
Jake Nichols:yeah, yeah, the first was, again, as I alluded to, you know, we ultimately live in a world that's unfit for recovery. But as I was going through this in the initial thought was, am I somebody who's fit for recovery, I began to think I was unfit for recovery. Because you know, even after 10 years of continuous sobriety, I found myself in a situation where I was very close to returning to those behaviors. And it made me start to question whether or not I had done the right things on that course, to be able to maintain this. And it just hit me it's fighting recovery in an unforgiving world.
Steve Bisson:Well, I didn't want to put you on the spot. But yeah, that was my goal here. This is not a this is not hardcopy, or anything like that. So where can we find a book because I think that that's going to be the important part because
Jake Nichols:it's available on amazon.com. It's in also the, the Kindle format, as well. And I'll be doing an audio book, hopefully within the next few months. So
Steve Bisson:and I'll be linking all that to the show notes. So people can go to get get your book and Amazon, that'd be great. At anything you want to add.
Patrick Rice:It's a lot, but I'll keep it short. The one thing I can say is that we in this field, our job is to remember that we teach more, so we need to learn. And we know I've said many times that we go to school to figure out how smart people like us can end up as distracted and distorted. And off track is we became, and when when Jay writes a book like this and shares his experience with all of that it's great for him, but it also will resonate with others. And it also speaks clearly, I think, to to how the climate around here on our world right now fosters more of the other side of the street rather than the recovery side of the street. Because of the kind of the culture, our recovery is helpful to each other. It's that loving kindness that the Buddha talks about, as opposed to Doggy Dog and take a ride this morning on the Mass Pike. And there's there's not a lot of love being shared. And that's kind of the culture at least in eastern Massachusetts. So hopefully, these are the grassroots moments where this sets a little fire and gets gets its traction and inspires other people to their own recovery, but also just to be easier and gentler and taking care of themselves and helping others. That's the message we all have. It's it's specifically in this case of behavioral health and addiction. But we as a culture, we as a society, we as a humanity have got to become more of a community, a helpful community and eyestay like Again, relentlessly optimistic that that's going to happen. But there is a new consciousness emerging now. Because it needs to happen. We need to save, save ourselves and save the planet and for future generations for your grandchildren's children. But it starts here, it starts one person at a time. And with three, three people like this, that the connections are intimate that we've known, you know, we know a lot about what we've done ourselves and how we've helped others, and we'll share it with anybody because there's just so much need for it. And this book was writing a book is no mean feat. And I have a tremendous amount of respect for it. And I'm always amazed when someone actually listens to me. That's,
Jake Nichols:like, fight you, I fight you
Patrick Rice:either, while you're the outstanding characteristic of that addiction is defiance. Yeah, that was determined years and years ago. And so you can channel that defiance into not doing the things that are harmful. And the defiance and I'm going to finish this damn book. I'm going to do it. And then it gets to a fatigue factor about halfway through a book. And so you wrote, you wrote how many 1010 times more pages than are in the book? Probably.
Jake Nichols:Yeah, yeah. It ended up about writing down about 25,000 words from the original.
Patrick Rice:Yeah, yeah, that's really that's typical. So but what well done, I think we're gonna all find out that the timing of this for the new year, or this New Year is particularly it's going to be really relevant. Yeah.
Steve Bisson:So I hope so. And I got to finish on a couple of things. First of all, having written a book myself, the process of writing the book is the easy part. In my opinion. I know if you agree, Jake, writing the stuff was easy. It's the other part. That's hard. That's why I tell people and then I want to piggyback on what Pat said, because one of the things that I remind myself and sometimes remind to clients, friends, or whatever, no one gets out of here alive. Might as well be nice to each other. I mean, I'm not going to live forever. You no one's gonna live forever. I've been told that's dark. I say I'm realistic. But. So, with you being alive right now, please go get Jake's book. Unfit for recovery. out now. And Amazon. I'm gonna link it to the show notes. But thank you, Jake. And thank you bad for being on the show.
Jake Nichols:Thanks so much, Steve. Thanks, Pat.
Patrick Rice:Yeah, thank you fellows. It's been an absolute pleasure and fun as it always is. And we should do this again, maybe dinner some time, sometimes. So that'll be fun. That will be fun. So thanks again, for your skill. Steve, in doing all of this, you make it really easy to be a part of this. And I know that's not easy.
Steve Bisson:I dropped Mike right now. That's a compliment. I'm taking it I'm running. Well, this concludes episode 82 of finding your way through therapy. Jake Nichols, thanks so much. Go get his book unfit for recovery available at Amazon and other places, please look at the link in the show notes. And Pat rice as usual, just a great contributor. And I know I'm going to have Pat back soon enough. Episode 83 will be with Amy timer. Amy is someone I know personally because she is my business coach. And we're going to talk about that as much as we will talk about other stuff and all her endeavors. So I'm looking forward to hearing that. So please join us then. Please like, subscribe or follow this podcast on your favorite platform. A glowing review is always helpful. And as a reminder, this podcast is for information, educational, and entertainment purposes. If you're struggling with a mental health or substance abuse issue, please reach out to a professional counselor or therapist for consultation.