In this episode, we have three returning guests, Courtney Romanowski, Muunie aka Morgan Beard , and Stephanie Simpson. All three were part of my favorite interviews of 2022. As soon as they were on the podcast at different times, it became important to get them all together for an interview. All three have expressive therapies and methods in common. We discuss a large numbers of subjects, including visualization, music, movement, and finding our voice. We also discuss the mind-body connection and the importance of recognizing this relationship. We also discuss the inherit trust needed in the process to evolve.
Muunie, aka Morgan Beard is a creative life coach and can be reached on her website here and her other connections can be found here.
Stephanie Simpson is an Artist, Coach, Facilitator, Speaker, and the author of the “21 Day Stress Management Workbook: A Holistic, Interactive Guide to Re-Defining Your Relationship to Stress.” She can be reached via her website here , Her Instagram is here and her LinkedIn is here .
Courtney Romanowski is a Licensed Mental Health Counselor and a Registered Dance Movement Therapist through the American Dance Therapy Association. She can be reached via her website here and her Instagram here.
In this episode, we have three returning guests, Courtney Romanowski, Muunie aka Morgan Beard , and Stephanie Simpson. All three were part of my favorite interviews of 2022. As soon as they were on the podcast at different times, it became important to get them all together for an interview. All three have expressive therapies and methods in common. We discuss a large numbers of subjects, including visualization, music, movement, and finding our voice. We also discuss the mind-body connection and the importance of recognizing this relationship. We also discuss the inherit trust needed in the process to evolve.
Muunie, aka Morgan Beard is a creative life coach and can be reached on her website here and her other connections can be found here.
Stephanie Simpson is an Artist, Coach, Facilitator, Speaker, and the author of the “21 Day Stress Management Workbook: A Holistic, Interactive Guide to Re-Defining Your Relationship to Stress.” She can be reached via her website here , Her Instagram is here and her LinkedIn is here .
Courtney Romanowski is a Licensed Mental Health Counselor and a Registered Dance Movement Therapist through the American Dance Therapy Association. She can be reached via her website here and her Instagram here.
Hi, and welcome to finding your way through therapy. I'm your host, Steve Bisson. The goal of this podcast is to demystify therapy, what can happen in therapy, and the wide array of conversations you can have in therapy. I also talked to guests about therapy, their experience with therapy, and how psychology is present in many places in their lives, but also share personal stories. So please join me on this journey about there. Hi, and welcome to Episode 88, of finding your way through therapy. I am Stevie. So if you haven't listened to Episode 87, yet, please do so. It's a little bit about my history working in the field my first few years in mental health. So hopefully you can go back and listen to that. But episode 88 will be with three guests I've had on before they were part of the 12 days of Christmas part of my favorite episodes last year. And I wanted to get all three of them together for an interview and I was able to do so Courtney romanovski, Stephanie Simpson, and Mooney and we had a great conversation last year on different episodes. If you want to go back, I can link that in the show notes. But ultimately, I wanted to get them together because I thought they had a lot in common. And I'm curious about expressive therapy. As much as I do podcasting. I also don't know much about expressive therapy. I don't know everything. And I've always enjoyed listening to them. I've known Courtney for many years, and Stephanie's been on twice. Just an amazing conversation in the past. So I'm sure it's gonna be a great dynamic conversation now. Well, Hi, and welcome to Episode 88, of finding your way through therapy. This is YouTube channel also, episode number 23. So if you didn't know you're going to be on video. But I think you already knew. It's great to have three people that I've actually had before on the show. One day I consider a great friend, Courtney romanovski, who has an office next to me, but truly just a good friend, which is always nice to have a friend that's on. Stephanie, you've been on twice, this gonna be your third time, I feel like I've developed a friendship with you. And so happy to have you here. And Morgan. It's funny because we met through not even like the regular ways of meeting for podcasting. And yet, I think we've kept in touch for the most part since then. And what it's also said to you, we're all three of you were part of my 12 favorite episodes this year. Last year 2022 Is last year. So while I mentioned that, but I wanted to welcome you back to the show. Thanks, Dave. Thank you. Really nice to see you guys. And what I would like you to do is because maybe people didn't get your episode, maybe you didn't catch the repeat, because you were also both, like all three of you had a favorite episode or most popular episodes. So you're also refocused twice, besides being here a few times. So maybe people didn't catch that for some awful reason. If you could introduce yourself, and I'm going to start with Stephanie first.
Stephanie Simpson:Sure, well, I'm excited to be back. I love these conversation, because I learned so much of them. So I'm definitely I am a an artist and a coach and a consultant and facilitator based in New York City. And my work is around executive and leadership training and coaching and workplace culture. So I'm really interested in how are we creating workplaces and environments that are human centric, and bringing it back to the people? How are we creating spaces where they can sustain their energy from a holistic perspective, so that they can perform their best. So I do that through trainings, I do it through workshops, and then coaching. I'm a certified professional coach, not a licensed therapist, though I have a master's in clinical psychology, all of my work, it comes from the first and foremost lens of what who I am, which is an artist, so dancer, musical theater, creator, Director, choreographer, so arts and expressing yourself through the arts has been a really big part of my journey. Also, someone who goes to therapy every week, had my therapy session this morning, and very much arts are part of even my therapy sessions with my therapist. And it's really understanding the Mind Body Spirit connection. And so a lot of the work I do with people is around getting back into their body in a somatic way. And a lot of what I do with people is around stress. So how are we really redefining our relationship with stress? So it's working with us and for us and not against us?
Steve Bisson:Well, I like your intro, because that's kind of like what we are very complex people who do many, many things. So I really appreciate that I and we're not in one singular role, and I think that's important and would love to hear more about the mind body connection because I I can see that with everyone here already. But let's put it on the table that we're going to talk about that. Courtney How about you go next
Courtney Romanowski:door. I am Courtney romanovski, licensed mental health counselor registered dance movement therapist through the adta American dance Therapy Association. I I am in Framingham mass, just outside of Boston. And I work with adults with mood and anxiety symptoms. I do mainly talk therapy, but do integrate dance therapy, through breath, body awareness as an assessment tool for myself. I am also certified in restorative yoga, which I'm figuring out how to integrate even more into my therapy sessions. But which I realized for myself, I'm also in therapy have been in and out of therapy, my adult life, which I highly recommend that all therapists and coaches and everybody, everybody do. Yeah,
Steve Bisson:you forgot you got an awesome office because of someone you know,
Courtney Romanowski:right? This guy, many years ago, who was my supervisor, yada, yada, yada. Tell me why I'm doing so while in my professional life, yada, yada, yada. Yada.
Steve Bisson:What's funny is I completely forgot I supervised you.
Courtney Romanowski:Well, I think our first conversation was about the Bruins. And then we talked about therapy and stuff. But
Steve Bisson:yeah, while we still talk about hockey, except Montreal, still having a lot of trouble. So let's up and just to put it out there, on Stephanie's website and Courtney's website, we also did a great handout for the breath. And we did that a few months ago, please go to their website, we'll put that in the show notes so that you can also access that. So I'll plug if you don't like, Morgan, how about you introduce yourself?
Morgan Beard:All right, my name is Morgan beard. And I currently go by Muunie, which is my artist name as a musician, and a childhood nickname as well, because part of my journey of becoming an artist was embracing my childhood passion of singing and kind of like, celebrating that little girl that I had spent most of my life totally burying. And my background is, as an art therapist, and I've spent a good deal of my life as you guys in and out of therapy, actually not in therapy at this exact moment, just really bizarre to realize. But I'm currently acting as a creative life coach and an intuitive healer. And some of my practice is grounded in what I learned training to be an art therapist from the self expressive angle, but it's a lot of what I do is much wider now, doing the connection with the mind, and the body, and the Spirit, to really just help people get freer, feel more alive, and kind of radiate across all the disciplines of their life and their personal lives and our professional lives, whatever, whatever they bring. To me, I use a lot of guided meditation visualization that I do with clients, I do embodied stuff as well, like I work with a client who loves to dance. And with her, we kind of like dance out her limiting beliefs. And I've worked with people that are in music, or poets, and a lot of my practice is really following the thread of like, what's alive for whoever comes to me. And I love learning from him with my clients and kind of sharpening my, my own intuition in that practice.
Steve Bisson:You know, Morgan, you were the first one to ever tell me that, you know, you do use creative outlets, you are a podcaster. And I always remembered that you were the first one to say that to me. And I'll really appreciate that. Then I realized, as a therapist behind my office, there's a nice what they call a rail trail. And sometimes when my clients instead of sitting in an office, we go for a walk. And that movement is also part of expressive therapy in some way. So I give a lot of credit to you, Morgan, for waking up in me and noting that so it might be helpful to start talking about movement therapy, and I don't know who wants to go first? Because how would you define that I just defined it as a walk on a rail trail. But that doesn't mean that's the truth. So can I I don't know. Let's start with Morgan. Let's do the reverse here.
Morgan Beard:Sure. So, for me, the way that I think about movement, which kind of comes from my foundation in art therapy was making a connection that all of these ideas, thoughts, things that we experience is going on in our brains, in order to kind of get them out of ourselves and look at them and work with them. They have to be exhibited in some kind of kinetic way and actually move through us. Whether it be through putting pen to paper or through doing a dance move. Whatever it is, it gives that thing that's inside of us a pathway to come out a pathway to freedom so that we can walk lighter without it or sometimes just, you know, we write a journal entry and then we can look at this object that was sitting in us with a different reflective disk. That's a different perspective, which allows us to be in a more mindful posture. And then we can make a different choice about who do we want to be next. But really, I think movement allows us to operate as a channel.
Steve Bisson:And I think that what I would when people go to the YouTube channel, I hope they do, you'll see the movement while you were saying that and I thought it was actually very eloquent that go with what you were saying. So just want to mention that for those who are listening to the podcasts or ones on the YouTube already site, but for people who listen to podcasts really worth the time because it is absolutely true. It's almost like what you were saying was more mesmerizing, because of your movement.
Morgan Beard:Yeah, you know, and it's something I've always been a kind of big, just stimulator. But now that I'm more attuned to how energy flows in and out of people in between people, and especially when I'm working with clients, it's like, I'm feeling what they're feeling. And I need to give it a pathway out to
Steve Bisson:I love it. And I was gonna go with stereotypes go backwards, talk with their hands, too. And Italians do that, too. So just want to say this. Yeah. So just going with stereotypes. Gotta be careful here. We're being recorded. Courtney, how about as an Italian what we use?
Courtney Romanowski:Do I think? Yes, so yeah, last time I was on the episode, I referenced the American dance Therapy Association's definition of movement therapy. And this time I just, from my own experiences, and from my own beliefs, that movement is how we relate to each other, ourselves, or environment, or emotions, or thoughts, whether we are doing it out of habit or expression, communication, gesture, for fun, whatever, whether we're aware of it or not, it's just that movement is creating a relationship or lack thereof. And I think the use of movement therapy, again, from my experiences of introducing it to clients, or even bringing it up in conversation with prospective clients, there can be a lot of intimidation, or uncertainty or fear. And I think that that actually relates to a lot of what, again, I'll use my clients or prospective clients, but they are uncertain of or going into or fearful of themselves, and how they see themselves or the relationships that they, you know, I think the reaction to movement therapy, I think, says a lot about the therapy, what the therapy itself is going to be like, talking mice to, again, I mentioned before that I use movement therapy as more of an assessment tool. And that that starts from point one of how someone really even reacts to the idea of movement therapy. What am I noticing in that,
Steve Bisson:and what I'm gonna notice here is that you were having trouble with your words, you did some movement and found those words, just want to note just saying. Stephanie, how about you? How do you see movement therapy? How does that because they've, they've been very eloquent. So I don't know, putting on the spot here.
Stephanie Simpson:Yeah, so the first thing that came to mind for me is that movement? Well, the first thing that came to mind for me is I used to teach dance at a private school here in New York City. And I taught sixth grade to 12th grade. And one of the first things I would didn't do in the sixth grade class, and they had to take it, they didn't elect to take it they had to, so you had various degrees of engagement. And the first thing we would do on the during our first class was, I would say, you know, how do we define dance. And one of the things that I thought was really special was that over the years, they would say things like communications or movement, which I thought was really wonderful, because sometimes dance can get this idea that it a 5678, and like, you know, chorus line or like, whatever, and that you have to be good at it right. And really this idea that dance is expression or communicating through movement. So that was the first thing that came to mind. And then the second thing that always comes to mind is that that is the first way we all communicate as babies is through movement. We can't write, we can't speak. We're not formulating thoughts, the only thing we can do is move right. So part of my practice, I have an MFA in dance performance and choreography and part of the somatic work that I've done body mind centering is all also on like patterning your body from like crawling. So we spent a lot of time on the ground crawling and understanding push pull and yield and like there you can get totally certified in just like watching infants and, and how that shifts to like when you're standing. We can actually look at you can see from a baby's crawling what misalignments they will have standing. And because it's all about alignment, right so So the movement, we all have access to it. And I say all because every body does, no matter what your body looks like, and maybe some limitations and everything like that we all still have have access to our body. With that coupling on like my background in stress and stress management, stress lives, like physically lives in the body, like the brain and the ego may hijack that creates it, but we feel it in our body. So already, Courtney and Morgan said some really beautiful things about the energy and all of that. And we saw that like when people get stuck, whether that's mentally, emotionally and all of that you move, and all of a sudden something goes right. So I always say like, emotions are energy in motion. And so when we're not learning how to feel a sensation, right, those sensations, not even an emotion, we just quickly go there. But when we're able to experience a sensation, and then be able to find that mindfulness, the pause and go, What is this sensation? What am I feeling and being able to name that and then express that, and sometimes it's not through words, right? I train a lot of parents on how to be more coach like with their icons, their students, their their kids, but also get their students in some weird way. And a lot of times, they'll say, like, I asked them a question, and they'd hand answer in words, I'm like them to make it into shape. Right? Like, if they can't articulate verbally, what they're feeling, ask them to, like, show it in their body, right? And do that. And so we can sometimes, and I know, for myself, like, I did just very much express my emotion so much through my body and through storytelling with my body that I do sometimes. And one of the reasons I was I have been in therapy is how do I articulate that for myself out loud, and to others, because I was just used to doing it through movement all the time, I was actually like, maybe the opposite of some of the people that we work with. But I always think it's really important that we remind people that everybody's a mover, literally, it's the first thing you ever did. And that actually all those other things around whether I'm good at it or not, is not real. And because I even like listening to 40 of like using it as like a diagnostic thing and like understanding oh, what somebody's reaction. And like when I was teaching dance for all those years, and people like I'm not a dancer, like we're all dancers, you're actually born a dancer, because dancer is just moving and communicating.
Steve Bisson:I'll take your word for it. But you know, I was thinking about the eight step that you thought me because I had no clue what the hell that was. And then really got me more curious about the music and listening to dads. And I will confess that I've actually done much more movements and talking to all three of you than I have ever done before and more conscious of it. So thank you for all that. But it is not on video. Court. Do you want to say something?
Courtney Romanowski:Oh, Steve, I was going to ask you if you consider when you go on walks with some of your clients, if you consider that movement therapy, because there's movement as therapy, and then there's therapeutic movement. And I think it can be interesting to kind of explore the differences and the similarities. You
Steve Bisson:know, I don't have the knowledge that you guys have in regards to that. But I'll tell you, from my perspective, what happens is that, you know, they always say that men communicate better shoulder to shoulder than face to face. And when I can tell you that I heard traumas from clients that I've had for years, because we were walking shoulder to shoulder, not face to face, I frankly can say that about women I've went on walks with because sometimes it is hard to look at someone and talk about these traumas. So I don't know how I would actually characterize it. But I feel like the movement just brings this openness because there's not the judgmental look of the therapist, or coach, sometimes, you know, my coaching clients do that, too. That really helps. So I don't know what the call it I'll turn to more you guys. Tell me what it is.
Courtney Romanowski:So I mean, to be the dance therapy dork here, the history of dance therapy coming to formation as it is started with walking together. And so I mean, you're doing it, you're you're doing movement therapy, we're really
Steve Bisson:trying to get certified. I think.
Courtney Romanowski:Even thinking, I mentioned that breath and awareness, body awareness is a big part of how I use dance therapy, movement therapy, but you know, sitting and breathing with somebody, again, kind of gets back to what I was saying about the movement has relationship and it counts, it all counts. You know, so if you're standing next to somebody sitting with somebody is walking side by side not saying anything. It's still I think, movement therapy.
Stephanie Simpson:It's interesting that you said that, Courtney in that sense of going back to the breath, is that going back to like somatic practices and like the crossover between like dance and somatic practices and like therapy so bartenieff fundamentals with like exes and knows and all the body patterns and you have the six total body connectivity patterns. The first one is breath. And what's so wonderful about those big patterns is like they're physically things in your body, but they also relate to psychological things, right? So the breath being your oneness, and just the idea of like, if you are actually fully using your breath, you are moving, right. And so like, a lot of times I have people do it on the ground, like lying down so they can see how their, their belly is like going or like, let's place the hand on the heart and like or the heart center in the belly, and see your hands going or like another one, put your hands on the side of your ribs and expand into your ribcage expand front and back. And like using that sense of touch so that people actually realize that their breath is something that that is making their body Fuller, right. And I know when somebody says something about well, you even said shaping right? So like when we talk about embodiment, it really is internally like, how are we shaping inside? And the breath is the first thing that does that. That's the shape. And then it's how can you hold that shape while you're doing all this other stuff, which then becomes like the center and you get into like head tail and
Courtney Romanowski:all that. Which is all about connectedness and relationship, right? And not just with others and the environment, but of your body, and your breath. And I think we all move together a lot more than we recognize. We Yeah.
Steve Bisson:Marga? Do you have that experience, too? Or what's your thoughts on all this?
Morgan Beard:Yeah, the thing that I'm thinking about a lot lately is how we can use our breath to like, set the pace of our minds and our bodies and kind of use it as a way to work with someone who called it toning the nervous system. And it's setting that pace. So if you're experiencing like, anxiety, and fear, and your nervous system is starting to ramp up, your breath is quickening your chest is tightening, and your body's kind of like a tune into that frequency of tension, or urgency or fear, can slow the breath down. And that acts as a way of setting the pace, you know, either we can either breathe consciously, faster and hyper ventilate, and that achieved something or we can slow it down and get more conscious. And it literally slows our thoughts, it slows our body. And it kind of puts us in a different perspective, where we can maybe see things more clearly we're getting out of the place where we're like reacting to the emotions that are there. We're like looking at them versus being in them and immersed in them and kind of have that tunnel vision. So I've personally been thinking about that a lot and trying to maintain like you guys are saying that connection, that relationship to the breath, as a way of checking in with myself? How present my how completely fully embodied, am I in this moment at any given time? And remembering to do that as often as I can?
Steve Bisson:Know, my therapist does that to me too. Because when we talk about difficult stuff, he says, Where do you feel it? And typically is my breath that's not normal, or there's if there's such a thing as normal, it's just dysregulated. And he's like, let's get back to that breathing exercise. Let's get back to breathing that properly. And I don't know if it's the same exact thing as Morgan was talking about, but definitely I think that getting regulated through my breath is something my therapist has really worked on because and again, I don't want to share too much but we're talking about some trauma last time. And he was telling me about okay, where do you feel it? How are you going to breathe it out? How and can is it faster? Is it slower? And try to also concentrate on that where it's coming from and calm it down? So I don't know if that's what you're talking about Morgan but definitely something that I've had what my purpose?
Morgan Beard:Yeah, the other thing is that we shed like 70% of toxins just through breathing like you would think it's like shitting and peeing and sweating and all this like concrete stuff, but we're breathing all the time. So that's another like movement channel to release. Oh, interesting.
Courtney Romanowski:Another Wow.
Steve Bisson:gotta redo that PDF
Stephanie Simpson:one more Morgan was talking about or expressing all of that it would have came up for me was in yoga, we have a whole section like so yoga is really the the union the yoke of the mind body spirit and one of the eight limbs. I think a lot of people in the Western world they're like, you know, go I go to yoga class and like great, you're going to often a class which is all the physical postures, right? Yet there are seven other limbs to yoga and one of them is breath practice, right and so the product Yama and prana is for Breath, which is the yoga philosophy is your lifeforce. And so when you were when Morgan was saying like, the the pace, how do I want to set the pace or like my rhythm for what I'm doing? I'm coaching a lot of high schoolers right now are going through auditions for college programs for dance or musical theater or theater, and I do their confidence coaching. And we will talk about what happens when you get nervous. Are you someone who gets really anxious and you're like, really up here? Are you someone who kind of like, avoids and like disengages and like thinks into themselves, when they can understand where they are, right, because sometimes they may be different depending on the day or you know, the environment they are. But if they can be mindful of going, Oh, I'm starting to like, close down and like detach, then there's this specific breath practice, I will teach them that will help them to get fiery and get present and like, get the energy going. So that they're like, yes, let's do this. But I would never have that person who's like, here, do that breath practice is dead, let's do you know, three part Yogi breath, so that you start getting grounded and come back to yourself and like, find your own bubble again. And so it's just another way of sharing that the breath really changes our energy. And then when we change our energy that changes the way we then start thinking, right? Because our oxygen and all that is is shifting as well. And the we actually have control over that. I always have to remind myself, like, oh, I don't want like everything is happening. And I have zero control. It's like, actually, no, I can choose to practice a different breath practice, that will change. Now I'm going to take a Morgan saying that's going to change my pace, right. And that's also going to change the way I'm thinking which is going to change the way I'm showing up to the thing that I'm trying to navigate.
Steve Bisson:I'm gonna let you go, Courtney, I know you have something to say I've known you long enough.
Courtney Romanowski:Throughout all of our conversation so far, what I'm realizing is that we're talking about this process, right. And it's not about necessarily as expressive artists, it's not about the final product being like, the perfect technique, or the perfect art piece or the perfect song, or it's we've been talking about this process of getting there and being able to do it, as opposed to, again, having this picture perfect thing at the end. To be like, Yes, I did, like yes, that that could feel good at the end of it. But it's just been I just noticed that we haven't talked about the art itself, whether it's movement, or art or music. And I think there's importance in that, and especially for people who haven't done expressive art therapy, to know that it's not about the final product necessarily.
Steve Bisson:I see Morgan like nod. And so I think she has something to say here. So I'm gonna step back.
Morgan Beard:Well, it's like I can't possibly more aggressively agree with everything that's been said. But with that, specifically, the fact that the year changed over recently, I don't know if anybody noticed, but it's January. But in the past, I've set concrete goals for myself of these like objectives that I want to reach. And there's tangible things that I want to have these finish lines. And this year, I was just like, actually, I'm kind of shifting my whole way of being too instead of being like, I'm going to get this or reach this point. Changing the how, of just my every day, the how of how I live. And I'm at a point in my life right now, where a lot of the concrete variables of my life are question mark, I'm deciding if I want to relocate, as well as other things, but living with that in uncertainty. And we mentioned control. And I think that some of the practice that I've been working on is like, how do we find the stability and the security within ourselves through the breath through the way that we approach little tasks, so that we can allow ourselves to not be in control? Because there's so much of life that there's no ability to control? So it's like how do we tether ourselves to something within us to not need external things to be those chatters?
Steve Bisson:One of the things that you just mentioned made me think about one thing we have this perception, I don't know if it's a westernized culture but in general in westernized culture that we got to be in control. And if we're out of control, then that's bad. I think that the expressive therapy that I'm hearing is that it's not about being in control or out of control, but being being period. So I don't know if that makes any sense to anyone and if you want to know So you know, Steve, you're completely wrong, I'm more than happy to be wrong. But anyone who wants to go and talk about that it'd be great.
Courtney Romanowski:The mantra sorry to just like jump right in. But the mantra at least in a heavily for for grad school, Morgan, I don't know if it was the same for you when you went for our therapy, but trust the process. And like, we would joke by the end of the two year program of like, Oh, my God, we have to trust a process. But turns out that it is about the process. And because, at least therapy wise, like what, again, from my experiences, puts this final product that we're going for, it's not a it's not control, because no, we're never really going to reach that. It's not this picture, perfect life, or excellent fill in the fill in the blank here. But it's about the process of living every day, whatever that means every day. But that's just kind of like the again, it's not the product.
Steve Bisson:I think what you're saying is to be basically, and not worry so much about process and product or where you're going to be That's what I heard you say. So I don't know if that's where you're going. But that's what I got from well thought about
Morgan Beard:where we're going.
Courtney Romanowski:And that's about people with goals or who are looking to, to have this product, whatever the product is, because the these things are also important, right? But it's, for me not getting caught up in doing certain things, moving certain ways, breathing a certain way to get to that product. But that product being from expressing and breathing and connecting, and really just sitting
Morgan Beard:right here, like an hour ago, telling a client, you know, we're always going to be setting goals, there's always going to be like, some objective that we're moving towards. So to act like any one of those objectives is like the thing we have to jump into, like it's the most urgent that we abandon the art of living along the way, is like a total falsehood, because there's always going to be that thing. It's all process all. Yeah,
Stephanie Simpson:I really liked that idea of the art of living. I hadn't heard that before. And actually, what I was gonna say, goes really well with what you're saying is, I have not watched the documentary yet. But I'm listening to a podcast right now with a therapist that starts documentary Jonah Hill and his therapist and something that they talked about. And this goes to like what both Courtney and Morgan were saying about, there's always that thing, right, there's always that goal, there's always that something and he was saying how most people are trying to find their happiness. And they have this picture of what happiness is going to be this snapshot, right. And the challenging thing about that is a snapshot or a picture. It's one dimensional, there's no depth, there's no level, there's no any of that, right. And so they have this idea in their mind. And it still resonated with me, because when I left my full time job to fully commit myself to building my coaching and consulting practice, I had an image of what this was going to look like, and what I thought it was going to feel like and what it was going to be like. And also in around like, who I was dating at the time, the different things we were where we were living, all of this sort of stuff, and a lot got pulled out, literally the world just like crumbled under my feet. And this vision that I was so attached to so attached to, would no longer like it was not there. And I felt so lost. And here I am, like working for myself and all of that. And it was like, Okay, how do I go back? And one of the things that I'm so grateful for growing up as a dancer and doing arts and all of that was how can I go back and I'm so much better about it in the dance studio, and in the theater rehearsal room to be like things could be like, literally imploding in front of me in a rehearsal, and I'm like, it's fine. Trust the process. It's gonna be great. It's all gonna come together. And yet, I'm not as good about doing that in my life in my personal life, which is why I'm gonna remember now Morgan, the art of living, because I will be like, Oh, I have to get to this thing. I have to get to this thing. And I was just saying in therapy this morning that I was here. I was like, waiting to be where I am now. And now I'm here now going, but I don't know what's next. And I don't know how to do this. And what is this? And what is that? And I don't know what the vision is. And yet, like two years ago, Stephanie was like, Yeah, but this is how you're supposed to feel there. And then I'm like, oh, there's something wrong with me. And then my therapist just kept going like, it's like you have a challenge with just kind of being in the nothing like you think. And so it was like, Well, how can we like, what can we do for that? And what came up for me and this is, I think, a form of therapy as well and it's movement and all of that was I just came back from running a race at Disney World. My second Disney race and part of a couple of the Facebook groups. And it is amazing to read people's stories of like training for it was marathon weekend, I did the half and then do the full. But they do a 5k, a 10k, a half and a full. And there are many people that do all of them. It's called the dopey challenge, because literally all but they all do is great and all that sort of stuff. And it was just one of those things of so many of them talked about the training, and how the training pained them, and their life and the race was this great thing. But you can never predict what's going to happen in a race. I was tracking weather for up until the day I left and it was New York City temperatures in Orlando for my race. I was like, Okay, I gotta figure it out. I got to do this. What are we going to do? Right? So that just kept coming up to me is this idea of the process of training is actually the thing that is the thing, right? The race is what you're looking forward to and all of that. But so many people when they step back, it's like, oh, it was actually that process that whole way through. That was the thing. And it was great to run through the capital was great to get my medal and all of that. But it was just that you wouldn't do it.
Steve Bisson:Well, congratulations, first of all, because I always joke around like I've done a few halfs myself, and I said, Oh, so you have asked that you just did a half marathon. Everyone can do that. But congratulations and honest.
Unknown:Thank you. Thank you.
Steve Bisson:i The other thing I want to go back to is something we had talked about, I think when there was just me new staff, and now there's this, we're gonna have a group of 20 by the time I get to season 20. But one of the things I had said to you is we're human beings, we're not human doings. And I don't know if that resonates to you guys. But that's where I like for me, when I started this podcast, I had the idea in January, but I didn't press record until May because I want to trust the process. And what we're talking about, I joked around about editing, I typically don't edit a whole lot out because I want the product to be itself and hey, there's mistakes, there's going to be me drinking something or whatever, I don't care. That's what it is. So I don't know if that resonates to you guys as expressive therapists or people who work in this field and that way, but I just think that being human doings is always what we're kind of like, focused on. I'm just a human being in all honesty.
Stephanie Simpson:I don't know why this came to my mind. But I Well, first of all, I loved when you said that, and I use it all the time. Now, I always
Steve Bisson:give you credit for that. Probably not mine either.
Stephanie Simpson:Nothing is any of ours. Really, we're all just recycling things in a different way through the lens in which we're doing everything, which is great. I think that's wonderful. My question that came up for me this time, as you were saying that is how can we continue to be while we're doing? How can we continue to be because I was thinking about the race again, like that's a, you're doing a lot when when you're running no matter whether it's down the street or you know, 26.2 miles, but how can you be in it? While you're doing it. One of the frameworks I'm trained in is called core energy leadership. And it's a seven level framework. And we're in and out of these levels all the time. And level seven is the highest. And it's the highest awareness of consciousness and like no human can be up there. But we can tap into it, we can learn how to tap into it. And the rest of the levels are there because we're human beings, right? So we need those level. But when we're in level seven, we're able to both be outside of ourselves and be in ourselves at the same time. And that's something I'm continuously trying to figure out in my own life and a lot of like what I do with people, I'm trying to figure it out. And then those are usually the clients I end up doing. And not that I'm ever in coaching, we don't tell we just ask and hold space and mirror back and everything like that. But then I learned so much about where I'm at by mirroring back for my clients, and, and this idea of like, how can we be in it, while also being out of it so that we're not attached to whatever the thing is, the doing right? So that we can stay in the being, if that makes sense.
Steve Bisson:I have my own answer. But I'd like to hear Courtney or Morgan or money, I'm going to try to do it right. I want you guys to go ahead and try to because I have my own view. But I'd love to hear both of you what you're thinking.
Morgan Beard:I was thinking a lot about the breathing while you were talking. Because it's sort of choosing to center your awareness, I think, within on a process as it's happening to you. And I think of it also as kind of trying to keep the space of your awareness like clear, but through focusing it on a particular sensation. And most commonly, I use breath as an anchor when I do visualizations and meditations with people. And all these things we're talking about are moving meditations like meditation is just a word. It doesn't necessarily mean like I'm sitting here like, like Unlike you can kind of be in that attitude or that posture in anything that you're doing, like I'm thinking about you running. And I would kind of try on the perspective of how do my feet feel as they like slap against the ground? How does my heart view is it pounding my chest and trying to direct as close to 100% of my awareness to fully inhabiting that part of my body? I love that framework that you mentioned, I hadn't heard of that. But it sounds to me like that seven layers kind of the divinity or God consciousness. And I think like, the closest I get to that is those brief moments in meditation where you're just, you're not necessarily like blank, because that that's a hard, it's a hard thing to just be blank for 10 minutes. But those brief moments where you're, like, just aware of the breeds where you feel totally integrated with nature. And it's not because they're not thinking anything, but it's because you've like, released the attachment to it.
Steve Bisson:I like that a lot. I'm not going to follow that one. But hey, you go ahead, Courtney.
Courtney Romanowski:Okay. Again, with a peer pressure. Thanks.
Steve Bisson:I'm good. Yeah, yeah,
Courtney Romanowski:I was brought back to growing up being a dancer in the studio and the point being technique and learning the routines and looking a certain way, versus the yoga that I'm doing now and gotten to a point in my yoga practice where I'm not judging myself any well, not often judging myself and then doing it for me, Child Pose my way through classes sometimes, and I'm okay with it. And how different that is versus the dancer that's still in me.
Stephanie Simpson:I just want to say, Courtney, that I love how you said that, because that's exactly how I felt when I started doing yoga was the dancer in me would not shut up about your legs not high enough. Why are you falling over? You were able to do this yesterday, why can't you do it today, you can't take a break. And so I love that. You're saying that you give yourself permission to be like in child's pose the whole time. Because it took me a really long time. I actually rejected yoga many times because the dancer in me was like, so like judgy. And then it was like no, actually the yogi and you need to come forth. And when I started doing that, I actually became a better dancer. Because I put the like judging dancer away and like, brought them both together. Right and integrated. It was such a big thing when I was teaching I was and this is no dig on any teacher I had or any year teacher, I mean, it's definitely a systematic problem and dance, you're going to be better as a dancer, and you're going to perform better when like you're enjoying what you're doing. You love what you're doing. And yoga just gives you the permission to be like, Yeah, yesterday you did that today. You can't that's okay. Because you're meeting yourself where you're at?
Courtney Romanowski:Yes, exactly. Thank you, that actually helped my train of thought too, because I can't say I've taken a lot of dance classes in the past few years. And I thinking about it now I think there's a lot of fear of going back into it and and expecting it to look a certain way and to be able to do it a certain way. But now if I dance around my apartment, or I do take a random dance class, I think, because of the process of both yoga and therapy and expressive therapies. You know, if I take a relevant Day, which Steve is being on your toes, thank you, I'm more enjoying being in it and appreciating how my body is feeling doing it, and maybe why I'm doing it, as opposed to worry about how high up I am. Or if my back foot is pointed. Like who cares. I'm doing this because I feel like it and it feels good. And I'm gonna stop doing it in a second because it doesn't feel good anymore. And that's okay. And just like the being as opposed to the doing the appreciating of that and the realizing that has come along the way and it didn't just show up one morning. And that's another thought I have to about like clients who just want to come to therapy and be fixed and like that's not how it works. That's the being in the process too. But anyways, now I'm like all over the place.
Steve Bisson:First of all, where's your magic one that gets people cured? I have four of them that I'm selling right now go to eBay shop. But no, but one of the things that I want to mention is like Courtney, you said you know you lost your train of thought or what you were gonna say. That means you're listening to what is being said. So sometimes when we get outside of ourselves, that's a fantastic thing. So I want to Give you a lot of credit. Most people who go to a YouTube video will see me write a lot. Why? Because I have 14 thoughts. I gotta write them down, or I'll forget, because I want to pay attention to what everyone is saying. So that's a fantastic thing. The other thing I would say is that the running I always think about when I started running, I was always wondering if I was wearing the right shoes, the right shirt, the right this and what I look like. And then I remember seeing a meme of how you think you look. And then how you really look. And you know, and you can go to YouTube to go see that one. But ultimately, then I got like, oh, yeah, you're right, doesn't matter what you look like. And to go back to how to be more mindful and how to work on that. I go back to a Buddhist principle and practice of walking. And you were saying that Morgan, I heard you Steph saying, but it's walking on grass, without shoes with barefooted and just feeling the grass, is it wet, is it hard, is a dry how to and then doing that for a courtyard for 10 minutes. And it brings you back to the moment and being able to concentrate on that. And I think that for me, that's what I use. I mean, it's maybe not the same as everyone. But I always find that very beneficial once, maybe not in the wintertime in the northeast, but even in there, I will take my shoes off and walk on the cold cement in my basement, just so that I can have some sort of sensation as to what it feels like. And sometimes I find things that shouldn't be on the ground. So hey, when when. But I think the other part that I wanted to bring up is that we talked about yoga significantly here. And there's always this attachment to expressive therapies and yoga, why is that always like, kind of like seeing us together?
Stephanie Simpson:I think in the western culture here in the United States, it became like this thing, this physical like workout craze, right? And so many doctors at times would say like, oh, yoga is good for you, because it's stretching you like it's good. It's stretching you and you'll learn to breathe, right? Which is all fine. I'm not like putting that down. I hope that it continues. And I hope that the teachers who are teaching are really taking it in a more holistic way, because yoga is about a holistic thing. And I think once people get into classes that are really authentic, and based in the yoga tradition, it starts opening you up in a lot of other ways, right? So that people come to it, because they want a good workout. And they leave going away. Some things just came up for me emotionally, that I have never experienced. And part of that is because you are getting into some deep poses, depending on the type of class you're taking. I mean, I think right now, pigeon pose. I mean, so many people get into pigeon pose and like cry. And it's because what you're taught in yoga as a teacher is like the hips and the jaw, which are linked together are also energetically linked to relationship, both relationship to yourself and others. And the hips can be really tight, which is also why a lot of people have back issues, right, and all of that. And so they they get into pigeon pose, which is opening up the hip area. And it's releasing, right, like the actual muscles are releasing the energy releasing, the fascia is releasing, and we get a whole conversation about the fascia and like, how, literally our trauma and our emotions and our stories live in our fascia. Do you start releasing all of that, and you can't help yourself, you just start crying and, and it becomes this release in another way. And so for some people, I think that once that happens, you're like, I can't do this anymore. And others are like, Oh, like that opens me up to this, and then allows them to be more curious about other modalities that might help them in a therapeutic way. So that's one of the reasons I think, is that it became a cool thing to do. And then has started to open up to other people. And I think that the yoga world also has been really trying to create more spaces for yoga therapy, and embodiment and somatic and all that because none of them yoga inherently is not any of those. It needs to be done through a specific way, like the point of physical yoga, like Asana practices, so that you can sit in meditation for hours, and get like the divine download, right, but then is, as a community, they've done a lot more on researching, like yoga therapy, and that's its own specific thing and like, somatic yoga and embodiment practice. That's its own specific thing. So I think that's also why it's become people in the therapy and therapeutic worlds are realizing, oh, it's not just one. It's not just the mind, right? It's all of this. And yoga is one of those things that I think is the gateway for a lot of people.
Steve Bisson:Wow, that's a hard one to follow. Good job, Morgan. Go ahead. Our money I'm sorry.
Morgan Beard:It's okay. We're like don't stress about it. That's my only rule about the name thing. So as you were talking, Stephanie, I was making the connection that they're both integrative expressive therapies, and yoga are both integrating working on all these different channels simultaneously. And that's where like the healing is taking place, thinking about bridging, like black and white thinking, thinking about the paving and energetic pathway between these things that are stored in us locked in our brain pathways locked in our bodies, giving them a channel to come out connecting those dots. And both of those modalities offer that inherently, like yoga is inherently a mind body spirit, practice, whether you go into it for that, or not.
Steve Bisson:cardi anything to add on this,
Courtney Romanowski:I mean, just to kind of link it back to stuff we were talking about earlier, expressive therapies, and yoga are all about the process, right? You don't, at least in my experience, go to a yoga class and jump right into warrior three, and an eagle pose or whatever, and you work your way up to it, you do what you can to get there, linking breath and I mean money exactly like what you said, it's all of it is about the mind body spirit connection. And so it feels, now that I'm in it, it feels like a very natural connection is definitely like, what you were saying, for me at the time, when I started doing yoga, it just seemed more easily accessible. Or the I don't want to say the trendy thing to do, because I'm not necessarily want to do something because it's a trend, or I don't think yoga is necessarily a trend for everybody. But it just seems like well, it's there. I'll try it, you know, Adult Dance classes in my area aren't as easily accessible. So yoga is it's, it's right there. So I'll go do that. And I'll be good at it. Because I'm a dancer, and, you know, again, to go down that, that rabbit hole, but it just, I think it just seems like a natural to sit back and think about it, it seems like a natural fit.
Stephanie Simpson:I really appreciate what Monty said about like they're inherently both like all integrated experiences, because and you were talking about like the black and white, the binary thinking and though I teach yoga at a college here in New York City, and we read the sutras throughout the semester, as well as practices often and all that. And really the sutras like are all talking about how can we get out of this binary thinking that like spring is created? Because we think in a binary? So how can we find the middle way, you know, which is very, you know, Buddhist and like, how are you finding the middle way? What is the spectrum? How can you have both and right. And so one of the practices we do after we go through, we also do like the chakras and do practices based on the chakras and all that so after we go through all seven of them, in one class, we do yoga nidra, and one of the practices and there's like a, a format, similar to what like Courtney was saying, and we don't just jump into the long visualization, there's certain things we do in yoga nidra, to quiet, the mind, quiet the body, quiet everything so that we can get to that place of guided meditation. And one of them is pairing of opposite. And so you guide the students through feel your body as heavy as it possibly can be. Now feel it is light if you can, and you go back and forth, and then you go now feel both heavy and light at the same time. And then you do that with like pain and pleasure and hot and cold. And all of that. And when it's teaching us is that we're not just one or the other, how can we be bold? How can we experience both of that so that we can also like get our brain to get out of that binary thinking, because that's what's creating the suffering. And so when I think about therapy as well, whatever type of therapy is like, you're trying to not suffer as much, right? And like, at least from my experience, it's because I'm attached to this thought that or I'm attached to this vision, or I'm attached to the thing I'm not doing right. And it's having that reminder of will it but it's not binary, and you can play and I think that's the only thing that comes back to expressive therapies and like remembering art that it's all about lighting. So how can you play with this? And so what if that seems like a mistake, I think someone said earlier like sometimes it's the mistakes that bring the most fruitful thing and so really trying to think from that lens as well when you're going through the art of living. I'm not going to remind myself
Steve Bisson:and all I can think of is the Buddhist principle. The four most basic words our life is suffering suffering is due to desire and I can go on the other ones but to me when you said that that's the first thing that came to mind because we want to have the right point with it. I don't know enough about dance but and then if we don't do it right, what does that say about us? It says it says absolutely nothing. It just says that your desire for wanting to be accepted is a problem. And so I'm I can't believe it's been over an hour already. This went super fast. I really enjoyed it. I always cut it off about an hour just because most people's attention span Don't go really passive that way. But I definitely want to know how people can reach you. So how about we start with you stuff and tell people how can people reach you?
Stephanie Simpson:Sure. So on LinkedIn, Instagram and Facebook, I'm just at Stephanie Simpson coaching and Ste pH anie. Si, M P S O n coaching. And then my website is Stephanie dash simpson.com. And so you can find me on any of those and message me or whatever.
Steve Bisson:How about moneyhub? What have we do we reach you for help?
Morgan Beard:Yeah, so I'm off all of social media at the moment. So the ways to reach me are going to my website, which is Morgan beard, dot coach. Or if you want to find my music or the whole money thing and understand what that is, you can just Google money and u u. N, I. E, where you can get in touch with me directly through email. Yes, Y e s at Morgan beard.co.
Steve Bisson:Courtney, you're next. Okay, folks, I
Courtney Romanowski:probably want to just use the links for mine, but it's on Facebook and Instagram, Courtney, C, o, u r t any why? Underscore Romanovsky r o m a n o w WSKI, underscore LMHC underscore rd mg or my website, a new direction therapy.com.
Steve Bisson:And I'll link all your websites, your non social media congratulations, by the way, give you a lot of credit for that. Truthfully, really, and I'll put that in the show notes, obviously. And I'm really wanted to thank you because this went so fast and on a subject that I think we can go for another three or four hours and come up with new things. So thank you, guys. Thank you, Steve. Thank you. Thank you. Well, that concludes episode 88 of finding your way through therapy. Stephanie Courtney and Mooney and I'm gonna call you Mooney now I apologize for getting your name wrong. Thank you for the interview was a great interview and I hope everyone enjoyed it. But episode 89 will be with Jay ball and Caitlin de he regulars on my show and a firefighter by the name of Eric Knox. He's going to be joining us so I hope to see you. Please like, subscribe or follow this podcast on your favorite platform. A glowing review is always helpful. And as a reminder, this podcast is for information, educational, and entertainment purposes. If you're struggling with a mental health or substance abuse issue, please reach out to a professional counselor or therapist for consultation.