In this episode, we finally get to talk to a firefighter, Eric Knox, along with regular contributors/guests Katelyn Dehey and Jay Ball. We talk about the unique challenges, including how they are perceived in the community, how they perceive each other, stereotypes, both true and false ones, schedules, cultural challenges, as well as discussing the different situations they are together and when they are not.
Eric Knox is a firefighter and earned degrees in Fire Science and Business Marketing. He is a full time dad to his son and daughter. Life long a hockey fan, he enjoys fishing, skiing, and traveling.
Katelyn Dehey is currently the Lead Clinician at Westborough Behavioral Health Outpatient Services, with a focus on first/last responders. She is a Licensed Mental Health Clinician and certified Mental Health First Aid Instructor.
Jay Ball is a police officer and can be reached via email at benevolentguardianconsulting@gmail.com
In this episode, we finally get to talk to a firefighter, Eric Knox, along with regular contributors/guests Katelyn Dehey and Jay Ball. We talk about the unique challenges, including how they are perceived in the community, how they perceive each other, stereotypes, both true and false ones, schedules, cultural challenges, as well as discussing the different situations they are together and when they are not.
Eric Knox is a firefighter and earned degrees in Fire Science and Business Marketing. He is a full time dad to his son and daughter. Life long a hockey fan, he enjoys fishing, skiing, and traveling.
Katelyn Dehey is currently the Lead Clinician at Westborough Behavioral Health Outpatient Services, with a focus on first/last responders. She is a Licensed Mental Health Clinician and certified Mental Health First Aid Instructor.
Jay Ball is a police officer and can be reached via email at benevolentguardianconsulting@gmail.com
Hi and welcome to finding your way through therapy. I'm your host, Steve Bisson. The goal of this podcast is to demystify therapy, what can happen in therapy, and the wide array of conversations you can have in therapy. I also talked to guests about therapy, their experience with therapy, and how psychology is present in many places in their lives, but also share personal stories. So please join me on this journey about there. Hi, and welcome to episode 89 of finding your way through therapy. I am Stevie so if you haven't listened to Episode 88 yet, please do so go back and listen to Courtney romanovski, Stephanie Simpson, and Mooney talk about movement therapy with me and kind of educating me on the whole process. It was a great conversation, great banter. I felt that everyone got along this awesome. But episode 89 will be with a firefighter this time, we usually do at least one first responder episode per season. The regular guests that we usually have Jay ball, who will probably talk about his new job as an adjunct professor, but I'll let him do that. He's also a police officer. And I'm Yvette. Caitlin de he who's the lead clinician at Westboro behavioral healthcare, she's also going to bring up a little bit of that clinic, and all the work that she does there, but we also added a firefighter now, his name is Eric Knox. He's a full time firefighter for 24 years. He's earned degrees in fire science and business marketing. He's a full time dad to his son and daughter, huge hockey fan. I think if you go to a YouTube video, you'll see them wore my Bruins Jersey long story about that, if you want to write to me, I can tell you what the story was. But hopefully we'll be able to talk about some of the unique challenges for firefighters versus police. I'm sure it's going to be an amazing interview. And here it is. Well, hi, everyone, and welcome to episode 89 of finding your way through therapy. It's also YouTube Channel episode 24. So again, Jane and Caitlin are used to it if Eric you didn't, you forgot about it, hey, you're gonna be on TV, or YouTube anyway. You know, we've always had Jane Caitlin on I think it's the what fourth or fifth time at this point. You're like the regulars, and always good to talk about first responders to treatment, how things are going in that that direction. And one of the things that J has been adamant about is he wants to know if firefighters sleep all the time or not. Oh, God.
Eric Knox:Just in case, I brought one just in case I
Steve Bisson:got to bring doughnuts. Well, I think that that all joking aside, I've wanted to have a firefighter on several times. And it's never really worked out for us for XYZ reasons. So I'm very happy to have Eric Knox here. And since you're the new guy, Eric, I'm going to start off with you. And how about you tell the audience a little bit about yourself.
Eric Knox:Let's say my name is Eric Knox and a firefighter in the metro Boston area for 24 years. I've got a couple of kids son and a daughter, I think cocky like golf, fishing. long walks on the beach, stuff like that, you know? Yeah, I
Steve Bisson:mean, it's just who's your favorite hockey team again?
Eric Knox:Growing up it was Phillies, actually. But Boston, Boston. So I mean, I grew up here. So that's Boston, Boston, Philly.
Steve Bisson:Wow. Well, at least we're all on the same page here today. Nice to have you here. Eric. How about you know, I'm going to do slight introduction because I want to put it out there. Professor J ball, you want to tell people about yourself?
Jay Ball:Nothing's what's changed Jay ball, police officer in the Metro West area for about 20 years. I was in the military before that. And currently an adjunct professor at William James college and Newton and the corresponding behavioral health program.
Steve Bisson:Well, congratulations. This happened in recently. So congratulations. And why did you do that to yourself? That would be another show in its entirety. Right.
Jay Ball:Caitlin's responsible, okay. You're the partner you influence me. Okay.
Steve Bisson:It sounds like it's the easiest thing to do to just be lame Caitlyn for everything. It's easy. I used to say that the people that would every job I've ever had, they told me I was the most responsible person because anything went wrong. It was my fault. Worse. So Caitlyn, you want to introduce yourself?
Katelyn Dehey:Hi, guys. I'm Caitlin de mental health clinician. I work at Westboro Behavioral Health Care Hospital in the first responder specialized treatment program there. Before that I did call response for many years with advocates. That's how I got into first responder. Bye It'll help.
Steve Bisson:Right. But I think you also have done so much more. I mean, working with advocates is just part of it. I mean, you this program that you've created, I may or may not have had a few phone calls from people who have been very happy with the program. So just wanted to tell you that.
Katelyn Dehey:Thank you. I appreciate that feedback. It's great to hear. I love it. It's been great. Growing program is growing, which is exciting. Yeah. Good stuff.
Steve Bisson:Well, we'll definitely continue talking about that. Because I think it's important that people know that there is a program for that. It's interesting. I've asked pretty much every podcast I've ever had an interview. I asked people, hey, if you've been in therapy before, and I'm thinking I never asked Caitlyn or Jay. And obviously, Eric, it's your first time so I've never asked you. So how about we reverse it? Since you went last? Caitlyn, how will you go first? Have you ever been in therapy?
Katelyn Dehey:I have. Yeah. Handful of therapists throughout my lifetime, that my most recent therapist, I've had her for several years, I still see her once a month or so. But I think it's good to things are pretty good for me right now. But I like to check in with her anyways, and just talk about the good stuff, because she's seen me when I've had tougher times and some depression and anxiety. And so I check in with her just to have that person to vent to. I think everybody should have that. I think everybody should see a therapist at some point in their life. The fact is, we all go through stuff. So at some point or another, we all have stuff that we could talk to a therapist about. It's unfortunately not how the general public sees the topic, but it's my personal belief that everybody should have a therapist. So yes, I have been in therapy, I still see a therapist, and I'm perfectly proud and okay to let people know that.
Steve Bisson:You need to talk to your therapist, because you came back from Florida to come to this place. There's a problem right there of judgment. But anyway, none of my business. How about you, Jay? I know you've talked about it before, but I pretty much like want to ask the question directly. Have you ever been in therapy?
Jay Ball:I gotcha. Well, I'm gonna answer the question like, A Few Good Men. Colonel Jessup. Yes. No. Yes. Currently, in the past. I got a good guy from the VA. I think back of Well, first of all, there's in service going on for the MPTC. This this year, and David Agusta who, ironically, he's a retired Lawrence police officer
Steve Bisson:growing up in Lawrence, can I stop you for a second? MLTC? Oh, I'm
Jay Ball:sorry. Municipal Police Training Council. Thank you so much is the precursor it's a post and that like I said, that's another show. But he does a great video this year, he has a thing or 20 to 12 degrees preventing officer crisis. One thing he does, and from an academy class before he tells his amazing, horrible, yet amazing story on his journey. He said you gotta become vulnerable. And the way I look at is, I always thought that, but I never use the word vulnerable. And I think that there's a lot more credibility. If I tell someone, Hey, listen, I have a diagnosable mental illness, okay? But I still can keep going. I go to a therapist. And like Caitlin said, sometimes just I use the word maintenance. Some days, I don't want to go, but sometimes I go when the guy that I speak to at the VA, he helps a lot. But some days, I sit there and stare, and he'll tell, you know, kinda like, say thanks to me the trigger. It's so not to trigger it, but to talk to him about certain subjects. So yes, I do. And I think it's helpful. He sees things that I don't see, Steve told me the longest, over 20 years, I say certain things and do certain things. And they may be helpful, that may be negative, but he'll see certain things that I'm doing in my life. And he points them right out at me. So I appreciate it. And we'll get into, I guess that topic in a little while. A couple other things to say. So I'll shut up now.
Steve Bisson:Well, I'll go back to something that Pat Rice says a lot. And he comes on regularly to he says, We can't solve a problem at the same mind that created it. And that's why having a therapist is so brilliant, because the shit I can make up in my head. My therapist takes like that shit you made up it's not even real estate. So I love having those. And my opinion of you said sometimes you don't know any kind of like, triggers you or gets you to talk, I find that all my sessions where I had nothing to talk about are usually one of the best sessions I've ever had. So just my experience Yeah. What about you, Eric has been in therapy.
Eric Knox:I have been in a while know, that a pretty good guy. And it's great because as you were saying, J know when they call you on your stuff. It's good. It is really good. It's important just to check in and just have that neutral party. I mean, we all have friends and stuff and I personally just sometimes I'm going through stuff or I'm at work and you know, you can read people, somebody asked what's going on in media talk to them and you can tell them stuff especially with their good friends. But I know I at times sometimes you feel like you're dumping a lot of stuff on your friends, and they care and that's what they're there for. But it's Also nice just to have that completely third party that, you know, I mean that you can just let them just just talk. And there'll be no judgement, there'll be nothing. And it's great, especially when they call you on your stuff. And you can come in here and quiet. And they just, they kind of get to know you and they just start poking. It's all good. It's good. Yeah.
Steve Bisson:I also think that having a therapist is just a way to friends will validate you, no matter what your therapist might go. Yeah, you do. We don't need to be nice to you. So we kind of like challenge your notions. So I think that's the that's the difference. I tell people. I'm a paid friend who doesn't need to put up with your crap. And that comes from Pistachio Pudding. I can't say his name. Oh, wow. That's a blast from the past. I thought you'd enjoy that. Jay. Oh, no one else will know what we're talking about. We'll tell you. What, no, I don't think they do either. But tell you off. They're one of the things that I want to talk about, especially because we finally have a firefighter here is that there's something about the schedule of a firefighter. That's kind of like I joked around earlier, but all joking aside, it's like, you know, 24 hours on sometimes 48 on and then a day off, and then going back in, it's a definitely a different schedule. How does that impact someone who is in the fire service? And why is it so challenging for them, and I'll go with you, Eric, since you're the firefighter here. So good.
Eric Knox:I came from like in a corporate world, as in sales beforehand, took this job. And it's kind of that's I've been here for 24 years, but it's different. It can be 24 hours can go by like that, or 24 hours can be a very, very long time in the firehouse. Whether you're busy on calls, or the Pireaus in your crew, and the people you work with are almost like your second family. As we all know, sometimes family is great to have. The Times family can be really, really hard to deal with. And I think sometimes people feel like, Oh, it's great shift the shift, I currently work as a 24 on 70, chew up, some that work 24 on 24 off, 24 on, five days off. And there's really good and bad parts to it. When you're in it, it's great. But when you're trying to relate to the other, like the world in general, um, it's kind of weird. But just having spouses and having, like I said, there's the rest of the world and kids, it's when you work in debt, you know, are you working? Or it just, it can be tough, with it being 24 hours sometimes? No, sometimes I know, we were joking around earlier about pillows and taking naps. And everyone seems to jokes like oh fire and sleep all day. And not that any of my friends or people that know me are going to hear this podcast, they might, they're probably going to cringe, because I tell the story of all the new guys like my first day in the fire department. We had 22 runs in 24 hours, I had everything but a building fire. I remember the next morning, we're having coffee, I was wired, you know, the lights go on and tones are just completely attuned to everything. I mean, the air conditioner would go on, I'd be like, what's that? You know, but I vividly remember they were just like, you know, we have another day like this, you're going to a different station, my friend. But there's some days that are great, you know, some days are just they'll call the no hitter. You know, it happens. Some days, that happens, most of time it doesn't, we usually go i at my station, we go at the door at least 1012 times. So it's hard to there's just a lot of things, it's a completely different culture, you're on all the time, you just you don't know when the light is gonna come on. You don't know you're gonna have it's so hard for civilian and say civilian, but for somebody who just doesn't know it, they walk, you know, people walk in the fire stage, see big trucks and they see gear and everything, you know, all these toys and stuff, it's great. And they might see some people, you know, sitting at the desk or you know, doing doing whatever working out or whatever. And like, oh, this seems like a really cool job. And is you've talked to many firemen. They're like it's the best job in the world. And I truly believe it is. But with it comes a lot of stuff. Just stuff. I don't know, under stuff. There's a lot of bullet points.
Steve Bisson:So I mean, I'm gonna turn to Caitlin a little bit because she's worked with firefighters and maybe those challenges but one of the things I also want to mention is that you talk about, I know how big your crew is when you you're on Fritos. 24 hours typically is at least four people. And then Majan if you don't get along with one of them, and you got to put up with their crap for the rest of it. Like God knows when that team is going to be broken up. I think that there's a challenge there too, especially if you've got personality clash, but that's just something I've picked up from the work I've done.
Eric Knox:I agree 100% sometimes and everyone just doesn't get along. Some people are just whether it be an old guy come into a station with a bunch of new guys, which sometimes doesn't get along too well or just with different people personalities, like you're saying that dynamic can be tough. It's not like a nine to five where it's like you know, I can hide my cubicle. I mean, you can't hide but sometimes it's kind of hard. It's like being home. You know you always meet the kitchen or the bathroom or stuff like that. So
Steve Bisson:Kailyn you because of your program because of your ex perience Do you find that that's something like is unique to firefighters in the sense that it's hard to really relate to other services because of that? Or do you feel that's something that is normal?
Katelyn Dehey:I think it's something that's pretty relatable to other services. People work, certain shifts, in policing people have certain groups of people they work with in the military. And yeah, you don't always get along. And I think that that can be challenging. I think the piece about it for the fire fighters is that that 24 hour piece, right, that makes it a little more complex, because you, you're together for 24 hours, versus the cops have eight, maybe 16. But still, that's less than 24 hours, right? So there's a little more Break, break up of the time spent together with the same people. But I do think like, something that, Eric, you said about, like, relating to the rest of the world, if you've never stepped foot in, inside, that day, in the life of a firefighter, you have no idea what that looks like. And so, you know, you're a firefighter, but you also have a life over here, right? So you have all the stuff that you have to deal with at the firehouse with the people you work with, with people you serve in the community, but then you have a life like the rest of us with the spouse and children and family and those things together, can be really challenging to navigate and balance from what I've seen. Yeah.
Steve Bisson:And I think it's a little bit of what you know, Jay has talked about to lose weight going to parties, sometimes people don't relate, or they want stories. And I don't know if Jay, you want to jump in here, but I know that Eric, you may face that too. And it just wanted to hear your part. But maybe Jay, you can remind people what happens when you go somewhere and you kind of have a different job and people like Hey, tell me a story.
Jay Ball:I'm gonna leave it. I'm gonna say something. But I want Eric to absolutely number one, correct me if I'm wrong, and that but on the police side, obviously, we've got no one wants to ask the guy from the investment firm about his portfolio, and no one wants to ask the person that's a manager at grocery store about how much sales they had. They want the story, everything they see is what they see on TV. And that's not to group everyone together. But you know, from cops, and from a live PD and all those things. My thing is this, I've heard said the firefighters and so I want Eric to correct me if need be. Everyone says, oh, firefighters, firefighters, firefighters, well, they talk about fires, they see fires on TV, they see the movies and everything like that. But what I think people don't truly realize about firefighters is fires are small part of the job number one, but number two, they see any medical, any death, anything along those lines firefighters going to and then when you go these parties, hey, as a firefighter, well, they're not going to tell you more than likely about a fire that happened. What's going to stick out in their mind is the baby is going to be the drowning is going to be those because that's the majority of their calls. They're coming to save you they're coming to provide medical help. Now I'm gonna shut up now because I'm not a firefighter. But that's kind of my, my spiel on it. How do you feel about that?
Eric Knox:No, I agree. 100%. I mean, in my town, do call 911 You end up getting us paramedic unit and a police officer. But it's the truth. That's the majority of our job. It's kind of turned out that way. Fire Services kind of I don't know, there's a Fire Prevention Division, kind of putting, you know, if you're doing a great job, but you know, the invention of fire protections and smoke alarms and all that stuff. Which is definitely cut back on fires. Some of the police officers I work with, they're like you guys can so slack as a fire you think it's great, because we don't get all excited, go to a bank robbery. You know, it's not like, Oh, we're gonna get a bank robbery. I really hope so. There's gonna be some mighty fire. So it's like, oh, you know, we're gonna get fired. It's like, it's just it's a thing. I mean, you get trained to do it get jazzed up. It's like, I don't know. It's just, it's, you know, and that's another really Caitlin, you're talking about, like relating to the public. It's like, how do you explain to somebody we're excited about going to somebody's worst day? Their house is burning down, they're losing everybody they could be losing loved ones. How do you explain that? You're excited about that? Like people just kind of go huh? And they don't quite get it. Yeah, but that get back to the whole about you know, when people ask you questions, it's exactly you know, what are the worst things you've seen and the crazy stuff the baby is that it's true but usually you know if anyone asked fire story there's always crazy stories and like you said on TV you can't see there's none of this crazy people walk in I mean I don't know what what are the fire shows there's one or two guys that watch them once while we turn on Are you kidding me? Like you put them on? What was the what was the one with the Nero Chicago there I was horrible in the five minutes should know it. But like the stuff is brutal. They see these people like walking into this inferno. It's not like that. It's just not like that close. Your eyes. That's what it's like, you know and feel your way around. The majority of what we see is we get police and fire and you know, we get we get called to everybody's worst day, you know, and the one the one small difference between police and fire. It's like, everyone's like, Oh, we got to call the police off, something's in trouble. You know, the cops are coming, the cops coming. But you can call the fire department center, the fire departments, they come and help. They're almost like the good guys. Which isn't really it's that's, I don't know, I don't think so. We both show up. We're all we're doing the exact same thing. But
Jay Ball:one of the big things and I look at this, I'm probably putting this out in order. When I was at my other department, small department house at Milford. I took a liking to do an arson investigations. And for a small town like Milford at the time. I love doing the red and blue team. I also played for the Milford fire hockey team. So it was weird. I had this strong bond with the fire department. And I remember grew up in Lawrence, it never affected me. But fires always kind of they scared me because just kind of like you said, it's not so much the fire. It's losing everything. That is the weird thing, losing everything. And I don't think people realize that. I look at firefighters when I used to come in Milford at the time and an enormous, inordinate amount of fires. We put we grabbed some people for arson stuff. But the first thing I would do is show up. I knew some of these guys would if they were there they came and they weren't useful to call us they weren't the junior guys was a smaller place. And just to look around, as everyone say, that was the first question I asked the Deputy Fire Chief and the fire chief. Is everyone safe? Is everyone good? Yes. Is everyone out? Yes. People don't realize once they when there is a fire. You know, they answered that building. It's wood. We hear this police officers, two storey brick structure, two storey wood structure, sometimes we'll want to run in the fire firefighters will look at us especially if it's a lieutenant or above, like Whoa, don't know, we're gonna go in there. But we're gonna go in there this way, you're not gonna go in there like that we're gonna go in, they can enter that door. And next thing you know, the support beam for the whole house can go behind. In a split second, everything can change. And yes, you can. You can say that about policing those things in policing. But think of that. They're going to that fire when there is a fire, you go into a fire and they step in that door. And the roof collapses. You think of anything that could happen? Wood Burns, and these guys are going in? Yes, they have the tools to make sure they're safe. But it's a question mark.
Steve Bisson:In the movie you were looking for is Backdraft.
Eric Knox:But thank you. Yeah, that in the the hose bed action, but anyway. But it's true. Jay, it's like, I know that there's been a couple times I can think of a handful that sometimes you know, we'll get there. Please always get there first. It's just it's just normally as I can think of two or three times where literally we pull up and you guys are like bailing out like are you kidding me like they tried to go through the threshold, or they literally pulled one or two people out before I know you're trying to help in sometimes I know there's been some, we've talked about it later, it's like, don't go in because all you do is actually make another you can become a victim yourself real quick. And then the products can function to their absolute. They're literally deadly. Take a couple hits. So that stuff and just between the heat, and just the chemical makeup, the smoke and fumes and stuff, it'll kill you one or two breasts and good luck. So
Steve Bisson:now I'm gonna turn to Caitlin for a second here, just to ask a little bit of bio, because of your program because of your experience. I know I've been to a fire scene. And the work I did as a co response was way different than going to a call responsive and mental health or substance abuse situation. Do you feel that it goes the same way in the work that you do? Or do you feel they see it differently? or what have you?
Katelyn Dehey:Yes, I agree. The work I did as a co response clinician at a fire scene a couple times was definitely different than the mental health calls. But there to provide the support for people who are watching their lives literally go up in smoke. And in terms of like the some of the firefighters I've worked with in my program. It really is about like you said, Eric, the fires are the ones they love to talk about. They love to go to the fires, right? I think that's an adrenaline junkie personality thing that most first responders I know have. And there's that but that those aren't the things that cause the trauma, right, those are it's the baby calls and the suicides and the perfect car accidents with brain matter here and body parts there and people dying in your arms. Those are the calls that that stick with people and that people come to my program and that I work is fine. I don't have any problems with my job. But then as they talk about like, me and my wife don't get along or not like we don't communicate well Oh, what's at the root of that? Well, I come home, she wants to talk about how my day is that I want to tell her about the blue baby blue baby and the guy hanging from the rafters in the basement. And so I just think I'm down. Yeah, so I just say fine. And then she gets mad. But that, but it's, it all is related to the job, right? Because it's, how do you come home and tell your spouse about those things? Right? It's, I've said this before, like, some part of part of it is a protective factor, right? Like, you don't want to expose your, the people in your life to this trauma, like secondary trauma, right by telling them about some of these horrific things. And also, you just spent all day 24 hours doing it. So you don't want to come home and talk about it more like I was just doing it for 24 hours, I don't need to come home until you call by call. But that's harder than that. And that creates a communication barrier at home. And but you know, I hear some of my firefighters recall calls from 24 years ago. And they'll describe that call with detail like it happened yesterday, because they remember where everything was in the house and the pictures that were on the wall and the smell and the sounds and they never talked about it before. And then they have this opportunity to sort of unload some of those bigger things that stuck with them over over the years. And that's a really powerful thing to be able to finally unload some of that, because it's not part of the culture to talk about those calls after they happen. It's not like you go back to the firehouse and like, have a, you know, a debrief. Typically, I think places are trying to do this more. But like, historically, it's not like, guys go back to the firehouse and are like, Oh, that was pretty fucked up. Like we should talk about it. That's not what happened. You know, there might be some dark humor or some jokes made but like, and that's fine. That's a coping mechanism for sure. Right to be able to go to the next call. But the reality is your firefighters, but you're humans, and you have human emotions to things and you're seeing human tragedy every day. And to not process those feelings. They just built up over time. You know,
Eric Knox:it's funny, you brought up that one thing about the general junkie. It's true.
Steve Bisson:You confessing?
Eric Knox:Maybe, maybe? No, but I think I mean, a lot of times, I don't know, adrenaline will get you through a lot of stuff. I think Jay would attest to that too. In crazy situations, it just, but I think that almost blind you to it, it almost helps you hide it. Whether it's a 24 hour shift. I mean, I know like you're talking about dark humor back in the station, I mean, on bad stuff. Yeah. More and more. We're really bad stuff. You need to try to get like a critical incident. CERT team set. That's the name that says CISM. Yep. Yes, sir. Yep, they're doing more of that. And the old school, it was just, they'd sit around the kitchen table, and like, talk about it. I mean, the older guys are, if it was something really funky, and we're gonna talk about it, like you said about dark humor. I mean, is that processing it correctly? No. And if you go way back, it was like, oh, you know, they'd meet at the Elks later. You know what I mean? And handle it that way, which is a whole other thing.
Jay Ball:What's wrong with self medicating stop. I was gonna
Steve Bisson:say, Isn't it called going to church? I mean, maybe I'm taking
Eric Knox:no, it's the truth. No, no, I mean, I, it's funny, I'd go on wood. Since we've kind of shifted that way. I got into a firefighter conference. And there was a, somebody from from a CERT team. I can't remember the city he was with, but he got up he started talking. He's like, you know, how to firefighters, you know, handle stress? Crickets and 300 people in the room? Because we drink. And you chuckle chuckle he goes, Yeah, seriously, go. So what did we do? It was whatever our culture is. He goes, what do we do at a funeral? Drink 1000s of people drink. He goes, that's what we do. It's what we've always done. Is it right? Because that's up for question. He goes, is it the property? No. Is that healthy? No. But more and more, that is definitely that's a notice more and more. It's it's widely known that that's not the right way to handle stuff.
Steve Bisson:I'll turn to Jay for maybe another kind of like response. Because you Caitlin, I mean, we're both treaters, we're not in we're civilians. In many ways. We do have a privileged situation. But nonetheless, we're civilians. I want to turn to Jay because sometimes, what I find is that there's like an understanding between fire and police and having those conversations. But did they really talk about their difficulties from one to another because there's some there seems to be sometimes a divide there and that's just my experience.
Jay Ball:So I can say at my old job in Milford, smaller, small job us in the fire department. I like phenomenal, phenomenal relationship. Obviously. I would think that a lot Have a bit more than everyone else because I was working hand in hand on those red blue teams doing the fire investigation only came in my current job. I think we're big hockey, our police department and fire department, huge hockey games, huge everything. I think the hockey guys get along real well, a lot of guys grew up together. A lot of guys did that. As for on scene, like any place, I'm sure that maybe some of the firefighters don't like some of our cops. And some of the cops don't like some of our firefighters. I don't know if there's anything behind it. I don't want to go to scene sometime. And it's hard for me to distinguish sometimes, especially at three in the morning, who the lieutenant is who the captain is. Next day, I'm talking to one guy thinking that person charges the person over there. And I feel like an idiot. But I think we go to scenes and I think we've got it. I don't know, I feel that we get along well, in our city. With the firearm, I think we work well together. Yes, they're little things. And they're actually some of the things that annoy the firefighters. I know me too. Like, if there's a fire, don't put up a blue and white car in front of the fire hydrant or in front of the scene. Because when the big red thing drives through it, I'm gonna go. They've got hoses, and they've got access, and they're going to fight said fire. Why are we parked in front of it? Why don't we sit in our cars block the streets where we think we should because they're gonna have a ladder, they're gonna have this. So I think that's some of the things that younger cops need to know. Because I think that's sometimes builds animosity. Why are the cops sitting here? We've got to fire up. Why the cops doing this? And I think that's, that's part of what starts that animosity? Yes. Or the sometimes we have a motor vehicle accident, and there's airbag deployment. And we call when the airbags part, that's just the way it is. Could we get some people sometime that will look at the officer, especially if the younger guy What the hell he calls was no injuries. And I'll hear it I'm like, hey, the kids supposed to call you know, if you're mad, get mad at me. I'm the boss on scene. All right. But I think I've had great relationships with the fire department than my previous job. And now it's just those little little quirks don't park don't park in front of a fire when the big red things come in or, or just let get out of their way. You know, there's some people that if you've got a report, and you're in a motor vehicle accident, you try to stabilize neck before the fire department gets there. Hey, great, they may appreciate that. But don't take offense when they say Hey, get out of the way. And they're not trying to be rude, you know, but all of a sudden, oh, I'm a cop. Fine, be that way. But if the firefighters get out of the way, their level of care is nine times out of 10 higher than our medical level of care. If they tell you tell you to grab something, grab something, we're all they're doing the same thing. They tell you. Hey, hey, go grab the backboard over there. You know, as a sergeant, I've ran and grabbed the grabbed the backboard. Alright, Hey Jake, you good? You see the firefighters jumping in the ambulance driving? Well, they're working on some on the back. All right, grab their bags, ask them, hey, where do I put this, you know, because I got to leave the bags behind. Alright. That builds I think rapport between the so we're not just going oh, I'm going back to my station, I'm going back to my parking lot. You know, help them carry the bag form, right? We can all help each other. We're doing the same. We're doing the different job with the same job. We're helping people
Steve Bisson:know, I would suggest people go to the fire police game in your department and your your city and see where animosity truly exists. But that's just
Jay Ball:yeah, that's that's a great game. I'll tell you get a little toy for it, though. There's
Steve Bisson:a lot of stuff there. You know, maybe we should shift gears a little bit. We talked about a couple of things that are that mental health and you know, how do we deal with whatever we saw and you know, drink. I I've worked with old school firefighters that told me like, Oh, you didn't have to go anywhere for a drink it was in the kitchen. And I know, this is no longer the case, as we all know. But I think that it's important to talk about both the mental health challenges that come with that, and also the substance abuse challenge, because we're all you know, it's the same thing with fire and fire and police. And sometimes police have access to better drugs. So that's just my experience. But fire turned to drinking a lot. And it's hard to call a colleague onto Hey, you have a problem. And then if you have it's the same thing for police, I find is if you see a colleague that may be having a problem with a substance of some kind, it's hard to call him on it because you don't want to. It's like the brotherhood for lack of a better word. Do you want to talk a little bit about that? I'll start with you, Eric, because you know, the substance use and mental health in the fire department. I'm not very familiar, ultimately, outside of the work I do. So I didn't know if you could talk about that.
Eric Knox:Substance abuse. I think they're, you know, back in the day there was more of it. Not that I'm not that aware of much of that anymore. I think you know, alcohol is probably a big thing in my experience. And the one thing with that is I know that there's some really, really good system, some really, really good programs that if you need help They can get you help. So fast, it's scary. If someone were to come in and said, I need help, I can I know two or three people, or if you've talked to him and know, you know, they're going through some tough stuff. You know, they come and say I need help. There's programs out there, which are amazing for firefighters, and other first responders. But as for substance abuse, and I've heard you know, like the old school firefighters back, it was there was lots of Yeah, it back in the day, there was a lot of stuff going on. I but I think that in the 70s I think that was probably everywhere. I shouldn't have a J Have you heard that too? Like, the hay day in the 70s? It was crazy. It was like the Wild West everywhere.
Jay Ball:Oh, yeah. The stories I used to hear about. I don't want to maybe it was no 70s 80s. It's at different places. I'm like, There's no way that happened. Oh, yeah, at the end of the day, midnight, 1201. By there by the back of the same, like, No, zero chance. But then the more and more people, you know, stories get better. And they get taller as they go along. But yeah, I've I've heard some stories. And I'm just like, wow, no kidding.
Steve Bisson:You know, I remember a firefighter, old school firefighter telling me that the best time of the year was between Thanksgiving and New Year's because they get a lot of good booze. So I would say it wasn't the 70s I would even say it was the 80s. So I just sound like a jerk here, but didn't nonetheless, that's just who I am. One of the things that, you know, coming back to the substance use, like someone wants to help, then that's, you know, something you can do. What about the colleague that, you know, is struggling with that, but doesn't need to help or doesn't admit needing to help?
Eric Knox:It's definitely I mean, that I think that the one good thing? I mean, is it tricky? Yeah, it is tricky. It's just you wants to approach somebody, but at least I know, where I work. There's definitely people like, if you're not comfortable, you can reach out to some, maybe somebody in your union or there's other people that you know, that, you know, have gone through, you know, things like that, where you can like make phone calls, like, you know, Jimmy just hasn't been right. I mean, we all kind of know what's going on, blah, blah, blah. But you know, if we we I should say we where I work, we've never had an issue of like people showing up drunk. Do we know maybe smell like you could tell they drank the night before? Or are you just know that you're you hear stories? Or did you hear this? And there are definitely people that will reach out. I mean, there's there's definite avenues where you can kind of be like, you know, what's going on? Do you need, you know, tell us, you know, if you need help, it's there. I reached out to him. I mean, I reached out, but I know I've been somebody kind of grabbed me one day, and was just started talking about his problems, and it wasn't so much substance abuse. But no, it was my kid. I know. But I mean, we've that touches came up, he was just having a really good time. And now I was psyched that he actually talked to me about it. I think I helped him be a good year and point him in the right direction. But it's not something that I think in today's fire service, hopefully, it's not frowned upon, I think it it's kind of that hesitation, but it's kind of like you know, behind the scenes, people start talking and somebody will definitely step up, and definitely reach up. So
Jay Ball:what if I can ask just one question because I think it's it's important to know how your professional firefighter just in we live in an area where we have a lot of professional firefighters and that's just the way it is. But there are areas of the country, even parts of the state in New England, that they're wholly not reserved, but on call firefighters. How do you reach out? Or what's your what would be your advice as a professional full time firefighter, to those guys and girls that actually make a job that's their job, but oh, they're getting called in on a Saturday night. And then they do their their call it could be anything and then they go back to regular life again. How would you say this? How would you give those people that are aren't full time firefighters advice to help themselves?
Eric Knox:I think it's just whether you can get help outside but if you wait inside it's almost like I don't want to say brotherhood because I don't know the whole word brother. It's it's not it's a pet peeve of mine as long story. But But I mean, it's a family thing you got to look out for each other. I mean, that's what it comes down to because you know if you if you think about it when you go out the door and you know your life is kind of in their hands. I mean, if you're gonna go into the crazy situations that you know, we don't have fires all the time anymore or, or I don't know there's plenty of situations I can think that you know, what, if somebody's having a bad day or an issue or a substance issue or whatever, and they're not on I don't know if I really want them with me, you know, and it's it's not that you don't feel like you know, you're judging them or anything but it's you need to get them help. I think you should, I don't know there's there's like I said there's I mean, if any volunteer or on call. There's affiliations everywhere. today's day and age. There's a lot of services out there. The stigma would be kind of tricky, you know, Oh, I gotta get help. But in my experience, when you actually, you know, you get past all that Baloney, you get past all the that stuff. It's like, Listen, this is important. This is you, we care about you, you know what I mean? And you just you look, you're Yeah, I don't know if that answered your question. It's just,
Jay Ball:no, I just, I just think of, say I worked for, it's not going to want you. I'm just thinking and I work this, but I'm the guy jump in my pickup truck. And I'm flying down to the firehouse to either grab an engine or I'm flying to the scene. It's like, alright, at the end of it, yeah, maybe we recover the equipment, the equipment, clean the equipment, but it's like, I'm not a full time firefighter. I'm a volunteer firefighter. And am I just left in the wind after the call? You know, I'm just, well, you you go back to the house, you've got everyone around you. And the next day, you may have everyone around you and you talk either the bonds on these volunteer fire departments. Usually it's a mishmash of who should? I wouldn't?
Eric Knox:I wouldn't, I would think there is it just because I mean, just the way the camaraderie piece of it just it's like, you know, instead of adrenaline junkies, you're gonna hang out with each other. You're gonna mean, that's yeah, I unfortunately don't have tons of background are. The whole the fire community itself is just like the police. There's resources. I mean, you gotta dig. I mean, they're there. You just have to use them. And that's sometimes just, you know, leading the horse to water. It's like, it's there. But it's like, literally, like, Come on, we gotta go.
Steve Bisson:I worked in Vermont. And there's, they're mostly all volunteers. And in the town I am at for my business in Holliston, Massachusetts, most of them are volunteers also. And how I've lifted a little bit of that stigma for me is that the great news is that because you're a volunteer, you can go get all the help that you need. Because there's not that stigma, oh, John's not responding, because he's out to treatment. Now, John's just out because he's a volunteer, and he doesn't need to show up every time. So I think that for me, one of the things that I do to lift that stigma is like good news, you're a volunteer, you can use all the same resources, and no one's gonna be like, be privy to that information. So I had that experience up in Vermont, I was in rural Vermont up in the ludwell. County area. So I'm going to keep it as vague as I can here. But the there's a few firefighters there that really found like, like, sad the light with that, because I'm like, Oh, you're right, I can go somewhere. No one's gonna know I'm a volunteer, so they're not expecting me to show up at the station. So I think it that's how I lifted the stigma in regards to that. And I don't know Caitlyn, how would you do it? Because I, you know, as a fellow treat, or if I mean, I'm sure you felt you faced that on a regular basis? Also?
Katelyn Dehey:Yeah, no, I think I think that's great. But the volunteers like, yeah, absolutely. Like, they don't have the same. Same expectations, if you will, about being there for your shift or whatever. I think in my experience with firefighters, alcohol is definitely a big one. Cocaine seems to be pretty common. I think there's that goes back to that adrenaline piece looking for that, you know, when there's no fires for, you know, maybe a month or so, right? The people seek that excitement, that adrenaline. And then gambling has been another thing that I've really seen the kind of common amongst the firefighter population. But I think the stigma for firefighters really, and it's the same with police, really all the first responders is the kind of comes down to the politics in the station. And who's the commanding officer, the commanding captain at the fire station? And whether or not they support support? The people that that work for them. There's this with a lot of departments, there's this good. Yeah, of course, their support, support the guy to get treatment, if that's what they need, or whatever. But then returning to work after being on leave, you know, wow, we're not sure we should. Maybe they should be terminated like no, like, either you support them getting the treatment, and except that you can get treatment and come back after successful treatment and still perform the duties of your job. Either you accept that as a department or you don't, right, like there's, you know, I think unfortunately, it's, you know, a lot of places trying to put on that front, like, yeah, we care about mental health. We want our people to get the help they need but then when it comes down to the bottom line, people get a lot of pushback. And I think that's really where the stigmas the strong is because people don't want to lose their jobs but a firefighter Eric, you said 24 years like if all of a sudden you couldn't work because you they they let you go because of your mental health. Like, guys were like, what would I do? Like I've only ever been a firefighter what would I do?
Steve Bisson:You I was going to say just one thing about that before you go on, Eric, I want you to go. But one of the things I've seen too is that you see, in principle, they support that. And I've seen that in police and fire for the record. And then that gets that person gets in, I say, to guide women to, they go on light duty for a week or two, and then oh, and then they got to be treated like They're fragile in some way, shape, or form. And then that's another stigma that they put on. And they're like, No, I'm fucking back to what I used to do. That's why I got the help. I broke my foot, I got the cast, I'm done. But they don't see that with mental health and mental health is like you're fragile, you got to have light duty, you can't do this, you can't do. So I think that sometimes it's perpetuated by some of the leadership. And we talked about that before, Jay, that we need leadership to be the example. So if you perpetuate it from a leadership standpoint, sometimes that causes even more stigma for people that talk about it.
Eric Knox:You read my mind when you said that I just think that consistency from leadership is important. Because sometimes this person, this happened to this person, and oh, well, this app, this was different. Or you hear that the next town over this happened in whether it be leaders, whether it be your you know, a fire chief, or the fire commissioners or whatever, and in your town or city government that you're in the political piece can be tricky. Because you don't it's everybody. I don't think anyone can say, you know, nobody wants to say I don't nobody cares about everyone. Everyone wants to see somebody gets better. But what's going to happen after it's stigma, but then it's the, if that whole, you hit the nail on the head, and you said that all that just the inconsistencies that I've experienced
Steve Bisson:with higher ups. Well, and again, I'm going to address another thing that I'll pick on the fire in the police again for a little bit. Besides correction, and I if you listen to my January podcast with Brad, I talked about it there too. The whole like hands just pecking at each other. I've never seen it so prevailing more than corrections, police and fire maybe teachers. I'll go with teachers and nurses. Okay, sure. But you guys also like start like, oh, Eric went off for a couple of weeks. What did he go off for it? Now it started off with a simple mental health issue. Suddenly Eric was psychotic and wanted to kill someone like that. Fuck. And that's because of that picking stuff. Do you think that that also contributes to it because that whole like, pop up, up up? But that happens a lot. And if you feel like calling out anything, and I'm wrong, I'm fine with it. But does that play a factor? I look to you and you and Jay, obviously on that one, but not.
Jay Ball:Now, the way I look at it this way, I always point out a lot of things that are in the 21st century policing doctrine, you know, transparency, yes, when someone gets suspended, being a union official, a lot of my career, the general population within the department is not gonna find out about that. They know so and so's not there and all of a sudden, it's gone from Oh, they got suspended for a day to all the they're at the farm. They're at the this or that and they're making up every single thing about the person. And yes, you can't get out in front of it. But the rumors start, and this person did this. And before three days passed by, the story is so tall, it was the beanstalk next to it. And that's the problem. I'm not going to talk about firefighting, but I will speak from experience in policing. Yeah, you're absolutely right. The stories are crazy. We have one of my good friends is asked for reassignment. You know, it's funny, he's he's gone in front of every class saying before the room was get out. I asked to be reassigned because he got fired. Right. Oh my god. The room is ridiculous. We're like children.
Steve Bisson:It's a fish this big. Yeah.
Eric Knox:Oh my god. That's so true. There's a saying in the fire service. I was told when I first got on telephone telegraph fellow firemen. It's brutal. It just it just starts it's just the epitome of a rumor mill. It's just did you hear? Did you hear? Did you hear? And there's always there's always the go to people if you want to know. And there's always the people that talk and there's always those. It's brutal. Yeah, you never get the straight story until after if you're on off you end up working with a particular person or, or he didn't care what the story is.
Jay Ball:Yes, the way I look as if you care so much. What not find out how that person's doing column. Exactly. Oh, oh, so and so. So? Why have they been out six weeks? Just reach out to him? Make sure he's still alive? No. Why are you gonna ask me the question? Let's just see what happened. While we make sure he's not at the bar at the Elks every day because he's drowning in a way it's not the VFW or something like that, instead of, you know, spreading rumors. And I'm sure we're all guilty of it in small ways in large ways, talking to someone the other I'm sure some could point out if I run for office, someone's gonna point out and say, well, Jay, you did that. Well. Yeah, I probably did like at one time or a small scale. Sure. But it's acknowledging that it does happen and making corrections
Katelyn Dehey:like good point about like reaching out because I heard a lot of people in my programs they department was so great about getting me in So this program, like, they're super supportive, they like me, you know, they brought me here for my intake, like, super supportive. And then some people are in my program for two months or so. And they say, you know, I haven't heard from them since then, like I got in the program and haven't been on leave. I haven't heard from anybody from the department since since I got into treatment. And that's discouraging for people. Because they certainly are thinking like, oh, there's probably all these stories about me what you know. And that's really disheartening. And having people reach out and say, you know, Hey, are you doing checking in throughout that treatment period is really can make a difference.
Steve Bisson:I remember, at one point in my career was working with someone who they went, some someone in the department lost their spouse, and everybody was there to give him all the support they wanted for 10 for 10 days, after a couple of weeks, he was coming in, and like no one gives a shit, Steve. And I get the sentiment, of course, people do care. But people don't reach out after a couple of weeks, because they've done their duty. And I think that the other thing that I've seen in fire police correction, and I'll pick on everyone and equally on this one is like after two weeks, suddenly, they're supposed to be good. So everything's gonna be great. And I say, don't reach out the first two weeks, you know, give your sympathies do whatever you need to do reach out after two weeks, that's going to mean something to someone. And I kind of remind a lot of my servicemen in regards to that. Even in service. When you're talking about the armed forces. I do the same thing because they'll they'll reach out the first two weeks. And then after that, like Eric's cool. No, Eric's probably still fucked up. No offense or not you the other Eric, I know, just like the other. But yeah, I think that that's what I wanted to kind of, like, bring that up, because it is happening a lot. And I always say, and then part of it too, is because you want to lift the stigma. I also tell my guys call someone like yet no one's reached out to you. You don't need to sit there and like the phone works both ways. You can call him and say, Hey, I kind of screwed up here. Can you check on me and just like, give me a call. It's okay to ask for help. But that doesn't happen often, either.
Eric Knox:Yeah. So people rather
Jay Ball:talk about one thing we cover and service issue with the help preventing officer crisis is one of the things that sick time, love the old Deputy Chief long, long, long time ago, one of the first ones I added previous department, sick time was this big thing sick time abuse? Well, if you can find a pattern to say someone's abusing sick time because of their vacation, then also try and find a pattern why someone's taking a random Tuesday off in the Thursday, but coming in on their Wednesday and the police on the police service. You know, maybe if you poke at that, or look at that, and so saying it's sick time abuse should take in a sunny day off, maybe that person sister watches their mother or father who's elderly. And on those Tuesdays and Thursdays, they've got no one to take care of them. So before you know what, like I said sick time abuse, maybe before we push it that Think of what people are going through and look into that. A lot of things I say is listen, not everyone's going to have stripe stars and bars in the police service. But those don't make you a leader. There's informal leaders, for the people that either don't want to make rank or just haven't or whatnot, you're still a leader within your department, help people out point things out to supervisors say so and so struggling. They don't want you involved. But I want to let you know someone so struggling, okay, just so you heads up, because sometimes we forget to get everyone and we miss things. So there's going to be those informal leaders within a police department, I'm sure within a fire department too.
Eric Knox:Yep. No, those are I mean, in the trainings that we've had informal leadership, just a huge, huge deal. This kind of like the front of the house in the back of the house, you just kind of run the show. And then what happened back there, it's senior guys usually take that role, and burden, but there's a responsibility to kind of keep stuff squared away, you know, make sure stuff running, right. But yeah, informal leadership is definitely important.
Steve Bisson:And what I want to point out, again, is that we filled up an hour and they still have like a few questions that I never got to. And I know that the human ability to pay attention is about an hour. So I tried to keep these interviews in an hour. We talked a lot about different things, you know, and I wish we could gotten a little bit more to the cancer rate stuff. And what I'm seeing right now is a shortage of fire and police people going in and working in those departments and how that's affecting departments because you know, I have more than one firefighter doing 40 eights now. And that to me is just in human in human for anyone and when I see like, cops do 16 and 20 fours again in human that's not just that's just not right. I think that we have a lot more to talk about. So maybe I'll invite you again, Eric, if you wish to come back. And because I would love to talk about that and I know that you know something dear to your heart is talking about the cancer rates in the fire department. We never got around to that And we'd love to hear that because, you know, there's also some dangers around that that firefighters sometimes need to communicate. And I'm sure that there's things in the workforce in the police department that no one really kind of understands that the health risks that comes with that,
Jay Ball:I think to have the show that, you know, have a show where they're coming back with the, I'm not sure of his personal feelings on it, I think now, and we're not going to be friends and talk, but I think that's huge. You know, Eric alluded to it, you know, think of the I don't wanna say popery make light of it. But think of the potpourri of things that are on fire when they go to a fire. I mean, it's to me it's unfathomable. I'm not chemicals, I just unspeakable to me.
Steve Bisson:You can refer us a house in Massachusetts for having led or having asbestos. The firefighter can go, there's asbestos and lead in there. I'm not going in. No, it's just fucking out to go in.
Eric Knox:Yeah, and it's funny, just like the cancer case. It's just it's, it's also just, I don't know, fire stations or garages with the garage. We live with diesel engines. With it, there's so many little pieces of like works or comes from there. Even finding out our gear can get a Kansas now. So. But yeah, it's a it's a pretty big, prevalent thing, which is important.
Steve Bisson:So I think I'm gonna have you back on Eric. But I wanted to thank all of you for coming in. Caitlin. I mean, like, usually it asks what you're going to plug. But you know, Caitlin, how about you talk a little bit of what your program is? Because I think it's so important that people know about it.
Katelyn Dehey:Thank you. Yeah. So unless we're behavioral, we have first responders specialized treatment program. We have partial hospitalization, and intensive outpatient hospitalization. So it's sort of intensive crisis stabilization treatment, the partial hospitalization is five days a week from nine to three. And the intensive outpatient is three days a week from nine to one, group therapy based. And so far, the people that have been through the program, most of them start out saying, I don't know, group therapy is gonna really be my thing. And then having that connection with other first responders is really what makes it valuable. So people typically have seemed to have made good progress and have have a good experience in the program. So we're here for first responders, police, fire, EMS, veterans, active military nurses. We're here for all that. So you have if you are somebody, you know, needs that kind of help were were there.
Jay Ball:And can I throw a plug in for Steve? Yeah, absolutely. We did an open house a while back, which I love doing. And can I say it was embarrassed? Yes. embarrassed because the fire departments showed up, and the police didn't. And this is kind of my plug out there to police. Dog at the fire department beat us just like the hockey game. They're showing up. They're caring for their their people. In all seriousness, all right, they work off shifts, just like we do. If you're a leader out there, you've got stars on your shoulder boards show up when they have these open houses, call Westboro Westboro behavioral health, call your local service providers. I said, because I believe my heart that the firefighters are lightyears ahead of us. I think it's I think it's more accepted. But that's my opinion.
Steve Bisson:And I tend to agree and you know, from the bottom of my heart, Caitlin, I have met people who went to your program, and it's exceptional. So I really encourage I don't gain anything for the record for saying that it is absolutely just so want to make sure you said anything you want to add Eric, go and plug or say yay. Go IAFF or something.
Eric Knox:No, I keep inviting me. I've watched the show a few different times. Steve, it's interesting. Finally Nice to meet you guy. No, but it's all good. It's all important stuff. And just good to talk about just you know, like going to therapy and it's it's just I don't know, it's good just to talk about just and be part of something that's a little individual. So about that.
Steve Bisson:As I said earlier, me and Caitlin are kind of like civilians in this but you know, I truly if this is my part of helping the service, have done my job. And J benevolent guardian@gmail.com
Jay Ball:benevolent guardian consulting@gmail.com Yep. Still, it's funny how people come and hey, can I teach classes the and help you to help so it's slow, but I get a lot of people asking for mental stigma classes. We love doing it coming out. We're small, we don't really advertise. It's always worried about so thanks for bringing that up.
Steve Bisson:I will and I actually was on another podcast where we were talking about fire and police. And I actually talked about your service because it was in a different state. And I'm like, No, it is available. They were like shocked that it was
Jay Ball:oh, it's available. I'm a JetBlue mosaic member Absolutely.
Steve Bisson:And that's what I said I said uh you know he he will go he will go anywhere. And that's because of its sunny I don't know if I don't know if iOS sunny but we'll talk about that some other time. All right, thanks. Thanks, guys.
Katelyn Dehey:Thank you. So let's see.
Steve Bisson:Well, that concludes episode 89 of finding your way through therapy. Eric Knox, Caitlin D. And J. Ball. Thank you quite a dynamic conversation. We didn't even get to the questions that I wanted to ask. So we're going to have to have Eric back sooner rather than later. Episode 90 will be a continuation of my story. I know that people have been curious in regards to that. So I'm going to continue that conversation in the next episode. Please like, subscribe or follow this podcast on your favorite platform. A glowing review is always helpful. And as a reminder, this podcast is for information, educational, and entertainment purposes. If you're struggling with a mental health or substance abuse issue, please reach out to a professional counselor or therapist for consultation.