Resilience Development in Action
Discover practical resilience strategies that transform lives. Join Steve Bisson, licensed mental health counselor, as he guides first responders, leaders, and trauma survivors through actionable insights for mental wellness and professional growth.
Each week, dive deep into real conversations about grief processing, trauma recovery, and leadership development. Whether you're a first responder facing daily challenges, a leader navigating high-pressure situations, or someone on their healing journey, this podcast delivers the tools and strategies you need to build lasting resilience.
With over 20 years of mental health counseling experience, Steve brings authentic, professional expertise to every episode, making complex mental health concepts accessible and applicable to real-world situations.
Featured topics include:
• Practical resilience building strategies
• First responder mental wellness
• Trauma recovery and healing
• Leadership development
• Grief processing
• Professional growth
• Mental health insights
• Help you on your healing journey
Each week, join our community towards better mental health and turn your challenges into opportunities for growth with Resilience Development in Action.
Resilience Development in Action
E.112 Unveiling the Dance of Emotions with Therapist Maegan Garvey
Does the rhythm of our emotions dance to the tune of our body movements? Could dance be the language that helps you connect to your deepest emotions? Meet our fabulous guest Maegan Garvey, a seasoned mental health counselor and a board-certified dance movement therapist, who shares her remarkable journey in the unique field combining dance and therapy. From the drama of dance studios to the intricacies of therapy, Maegan enthralls us with her passion for dance and its therapeutic merits.
Maegan offers pearls of wisdom on the allure of private practice for new therapists, focusing on the freedom it provides in choosing clients and operating on a flexible schedule. She further emphasizes the significance of networking and establishing a nurturing network of like-minded colleagues. Our conversation ventures into the captivating world of movement therapy as an assessment tool, delving into how it aids in fostering a connection with clients and comprehending their emotional state.
Towards the end of our conversation, Maegan candidly discusses the challenges she faced in becoming a business owner and the vitality of maintaining boundaries between therapists and clients. The importance of fostering a supportive and non-competitive atmosphere in therapy resonates strongly in our discourse, mirroring her own practice at New Leaf Counseling LLC. With a plethora of resources at the American Dance Therapy Association, let's join Megan in this enthralling journey of dance and therapy, exploring the depths of human emotions one movement at a time.
Check out the American Dance Movement Therapy website here.
Check out Maegan's website here.
Hi and welcome to Finding your Way Through Therapy. The goal of this podcast is to demystify therapy, what can happen in therapy and the wide array of conversations you can have in and about therapy Through personal experiences. Guests will talk about therapy, their experiences with it and how psychology and therapy are present in many places in their lives, with lots of authenticity and a touch of humor. Here is your host, steve Bisson.
Speaker 2:Thank you, I'm going to try something new. Every intro you tell me which one is your favorite by the end of the season. Welcome to Episode 112. If you haven't listened to Episode 111, it was with Chris McDonald, someone who is a colleague from the Cycraft Network. She has her own podcast. She has her own practice. It was a great conversation about holistic stuff, so please go back and listen to that. But for Episode 112, I'm going to use again my group, the People I Know. Then I'm going to have Megan Garvey on.
Speaker 2:Megan Garvey is an LMHC licensed mental health counselor and board certified dance movement therapist. She found her way in this field through her passion for helping others. She did dance and psychology in undergrad and tried to figure out things and decided to do dance movement therapy. She found it was a perfect combination of psychology and movement. Her approach in therapy is someone you can trust and feel supported by. She uses person-centered approach, bringing creativity to her sessions. I've never heard her dance in there, but I'm going to ask her that question. I'm sure she's worked with a diverse population of clients at variety levels of care. She graduated with her master's from Lesley University in 2017 and has served on the board of the New England chapter of the American Dance Therapy Association, which I'm going to link to the show notes from 2018 to 2021.
Speaker 2:I hope you enjoyed the interview, and here it is. Well, hi everyone, and welcome to episode 112, 112 episodes. I can't even believe I did that, but I'm so excited, and people hear me say that all the time. But the most exciting guests are people that I actually know, that I don't know, and what I mean by that is this Megan Garvey has been in my office for about a year now and she's right next door.
Speaker 2:She's a good friend of Courtney Romanowski. She's been on the show a few times and I don't get to talk to Megan. One of the funniest things about working in the same office is we never get to talk to the people that are there. I have Kara and Courtney and Michelle. We got set up coffee time in order to talk and we're in the same office. So I'm just excited and we're in the middle of summer as this will be released, but officially it's the summer solstice, the day we record it, so that gives you an idea of my timeframe. But I wanted to welcome Megan Garvey because I really want to get to know her. So, megan welcome to finding your way through therapy.
Speaker 3:Thank you, steve, I'm excited to be here.
Speaker 2:Well, I'm very excited to hear more about you. I mean, it's this nice stranger that's next to me, always waving, always saying hi but we don't get to know each other. So in some ways it's going to be great to get to know each other and the audience will be right there with us to listen to us and see what we get to know each other. But ultimately I do know a little bit about you, but I don't know you a lot. So maybe you can tell me and the audience a little more about yourself.
Speaker 3:Yeah, definitely so, Megan Garvey. I'm a licensed mental health counselor and also a board certified dance movement therapist, which I know Courtney has talked a bit about dance therapy on this podcast before. This is my first year in private practice and prior to that I was working with children in a middle school in South Boston as a part of the Home for Little Wonders. I've been in the field for about seven-ish years now, so still fairly new, imperatively, and prior to that.
Speaker 2:Thanks for making me feel a little there, Megan.
Speaker 3:Not my intention not my intention at all.
Speaker 3:Prior to that, I was a dancer actually, so I did not originally intend to go into this field. When 18, I'm figuring out what's the next step. I grew up as a dancer throughout childhood and actually went to college for dance. I have a Bachelor of Fine Arts in dance and had minored in psychology and during that time took an intro to dance therapy course and that's kind of how I found myself where I am now, of just taking that one class in college. That really sparked an interest in the field, in combining my love for dance and movement and my love for helping people.
Speaker 2:Well, you know I need to ask you a question. I know the answer, but it's just by curiosity. So my kids are literally right now listening to dance moms right at this moment, and I have a few girls on my soccer team that I coach. They're dancers and I've always asked them the same question. I'm going to ask you the same thing. Is that the drama you got to go through when you're a teenager with all this crap of dance moms?
Speaker 3:I will say I feel like it really depends on the studio, but it's not uncommon from what I've heard. Luckily I did not encounter that, though that was not like what I had to deal with but there's definitely a lot of studios that can kind of fall into that drama, if you will.
Speaker 2:And whoever's listening. I just found you a business model that works. Grab your business card, drop it off at every dance studio. Yeah, and it goes and loses it, give her the card there you go, you've got a business model right there.
Speaker 3:And you'll definitely get the clientele, that's for sure.
Speaker 2:I look at the dance moms and I know it's an act because it's a reality show, but still I'm like Jesus Christ, I'm not that competitive and I'm a pretty competitive guy.
Speaker 3:It's like a whole different level and especially the competition dance world. It's like there's definitely it's pretty cutthroat Jesus.
Speaker 2:Christ I think yeah. Here. I thought football was rough. Well, you know. The other standard question I ask everyone is it's the same because it is finding your way through therapy and the question is have you ever been in therapy?
Speaker 3:Yes, I'm actually currently in therapy, More as just like a maintenance kind of thing, I think the last year I had a lot of stress obviously. I opened a private practice, which is exciting but was uncharted territory, right, and at the same time was also planning a wedding and buying a house. So a lot of stress and a lot of life changes and so kind of just as like maintenance support to kind of manage the stress levels. But definitely I love my therapist. She's like so cool and I think it's like fun to be on the other side of it Also. It's very interesting.
Speaker 2:I like being on the other side too and love my therapist too, and you know one of the things that made me think based on what you just said, I think it's nice to debunk some myths. When we do this stuff, even when good things are happening starting a new business, getting a new house, getting married it's still stressful. And I think that I just want to mention that because most people are like oh no, stress is when bad things happen. No, you can have all good things happen. That doesn't mean there's not stressful.
Speaker 3:Right, exactly, and I think that's one piece that I also try to tell clients is when they're making progress and when we are at a point where we're revisiting goals, where are we at with them. They're in that maintenance stage, right, and they're like, okay, there's nothing pressing right now to work on, but that doesn't mean that we have to finish therapy. But it also could be a place to pause and then know that they can always come back. So it really is something that I think it's not talked about as much.
Speaker 2:Tell me more. What do you mean? That's not talked about. That, as in how therapy goes long term or not.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I think that's what my thoughts were, I think especially coming from where I was before. So I was at a school and so it was kind of just a client would enter onto my caseload and since I was in a middle school, it was three years, six to eighth grade, and so a lot of times if a client had started in sixth grade, we oftentimes would see them until eighth and then discharge them at the end of middle school, where, even if they had already reached their treatment goals, and so it's kind of that decision of do they continue, do they take a pause? And I think, being in private practice, there's a lot more availability to kind of say, okay, we can pause or we can switch down to monthly. We can really just take the time to figure out what works best for them, as opposed to that very like structured model in a sense.
Speaker 2:Do you think that therapy is for life, or is there an end game, so to speak?
Speaker 3:I think it could be either.
Speaker 2:Interesting. What do you mean?
Speaker 3:I think some people really benefit from having that like non-bias third party to continue to check in with. But I think some people it really is just kind of at the moment when something stressful or something is going on in life they need therapy more and then kind of they can always know that they can come back to it.
Speaker 2:And the reason why I ask is that on episode 108, which we know there was a few episodes ago the guys were debating basically as to is therapy finite? Is it forever, and how do we manage that, right? So I thought it was a good question, because a lot of people go into therapy and I don't want to be in therapy forever and I always go, you know have to, right? Well, I want therapy to never end. Okay, that's fine too.
Speaker 3:Yeah, exactly yeah.
Speaker 2:And people have always for me clinically, on a clinical standpoint, sometimes you may need to switch to coaching versus mental health treatment.
Speaker 2:But ultimately I think that at the end of the day I'm going to be in therapy for life, but right now I probably won't see my therapist till the fall. I saw him a couple of weeks ago and I won't see him till the fall. But he always says you know, something comes up, you need to reach me. You know where they call me or text me or whatever. So I think about it as if you want it to be a certain way, you can. But I don't just like a doctor, a mental health, a physical doctor. I always thought that mental health is the same exact way. But that's just me.
Speaker 3:Right, I would agree with that. I think it's something that you know you should continue to check in with yourself around. You know where is my head at. How am I feeling, not just physically but mentally, and also recognizing that the physical symptoms that might be happening could be related to mental health as well.
Speaker 2:So it's good to know that you think the same way. So, okay, you can keep your office for another year.
Speaker 3:Woohoo.
Speaker 2:I think it's always an interesting stamp up because I think people don't go into like they don't know what to do when they go into therapy, right right, and I think like, oh, you want to keep me sick forever? No, that's never really crossed my mind actually.
Speaker 3:I want to be someone that you can talk to and feel comfortable around, and I think that's the big piece of it is finding the right therapist that you connect with on that level and also building that relationship with the client where they can feel comfortable saying hey, I need to take a pause and let's just check back in a year, right?
Speaker 2:I'm one of my male clients who comes in every three to six months. He says it's his oil change. I like that Getting in for my oil change.
Speaker 1:All right, let's go Okay, everything's good.
Speaker 2:Everything's going okay or everything's not going so well. And maybe we schedule a couple of close ones for about a month and then after that he's like all right, I'll come back. I have fixed everything I needed to fix, so to speak. So just why I mentioned that. But the other thing I want to mention is that I met you, I want to say last June, at a networking event that we had.
Speaker 2:And you were like oh, I want to start private practice. Courtney speaks highly of this. I don't want, courtney, you owe us a plug just for the record in the future. Just saying that. But at the end of the day, I think that's always interesting. We all work in social services in general. When we leave, we finish our masters and then some of us end up in private practice and other situations. What made you decide to go into private practice?
Speaker 3:Yeah. So that was always a goal of mine when I was in grad school. They don't really talk a lot about, I think, what job opportunities there are, but I loved the idea of being my own boss and being able to be a little picky with the clientele that I choose, the demographic I work with, and I think for me I didn't realize that it could be such an attainable thing jumping into private practice. I think I always thought, oh, like 10 years down the line I'll think about it.
Speaker 3:But then I was at a point where I think there's always burnout in careers and I think I was noticing in myself that I was starting to get to that point with my previous job and I wanted more flexibility. I wanted more say in what I was doing and how I was structuring my week, and so, with talking with Courtney and attending the networking event, that was really kind of the pivotal moment of where everything's just kind of snowballed. And then I was doing a lot of planning, researching and preparation to launch into private practice. I think it'll be a year, beginning of July, but technically I didn't really fully launch I would say until end of September. So then, yeah, and from there I haven't looked back and so glad I made that leap.
Speaker 2:Besides the flexibility of scheduling, what are the other? Advantages that you find with your private practice.
Speaker 3:I get to be a little picky with the clients that I serve and I think working for a nonprofit organization or a bigger organization you don't always get that say. You also have the flexibility to say I'm at full capacity at a number where maybe if you are in a nonprofit organization they would say no, you need to have a certain billable expectation, you should be meeting with a certain amount of clients. But you can really kind of set that for yourself for what feels comfortable with your schedule. And I think the other piece of it is the flexibility for me to do other things. So I still teach dance on the side actually. So I teach dance classes at a studio in Adik and that's like my fun job that I had during grad school that I just never stopped doing. So it gives me the ability to make my schedule so that I can still be at the studio a few days a week and kind of balance that mental capacity.
Speaker 2:I've always found that people who jump from social services in general nonprofit, whatever you want to call it then they go into this field of private practice. Sometimes they struggle with the shift in the sense that you know you said something that I don't typically hear from people starting a private practice oh, I have the freedom of choice of what clientele I want to work with. And for the record, anybody listening to this saying, oh, she discriminates or Steve's discriminating.
Speaker 2:No, it's just, I'm not made for older adults. I'm just not made for that, and that's not against older adults. I just not made for that, and that's not a bad thing to be niched, so to speak. But do you feel that there is a significant difference between private practice clients versus social service clients, or?
Speaker 3:Not necessarily. No, I still have connections with people that I worked with at my previous job and do accept some referrals from them. So it's still like I will still be in communication with them and I definitely accept any referrals that come my way from them. But it's the age that's. I think the pieces Like how you said, like older adults, aren't your thing. I wanted to work with older teens and adults, so right now it's very much that I don't want anyone really younger than like 15. And where I was before I was in a middle school, so I was all under 15. So I think that's the biggest shift is being able to say, well, these are the age kind of guidelines of the clients that I find I can support the best.
Speaker 2:And it's about support that you can offer. It's also probably a little bit of more what you feel comfortable with. What could be wrong?
Speaker 3:Yeah, definitely, definitely.
Speaker 2:So if I was a new therapist thinking about going into private practice and I would be like, oh, but what if I don't make enough money when I don't get enough of the clients I want? What do I do?
Speaker 3:with that? That's a great question. I definitely had those thoughts as I was jumping in, as I think everyone does, right.
Speaker 2:Well, that's why I wanted to put it out there, because, while we want to make this for a therapist and clients, I want therapists to kind of hear about some of the trepidations we all have.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah, and I think the best reminders that I have for myself is that it's going to be hard. In the beginning I set myself up for that of thinking of me and my husband and it is a single income household. We kind of put that in our mindset of don't expect my business to be providing an income right off the bat, and we luckily had the ability to have that be an option. And I think that's a huge piece of this. And I think, networking, reaching out to people, maintaining connections so, like I had said, I still am in communication with colleagues that I worked with at the home or even my previous job before then at youth villages, and so having those connections still and then connecting with the colleagues within the network that you guys so welcome brought me into of those in the office space and beyond. So yeah.
Speaker 3:And really just connecting and saying, hey, I have openings. This is the kind of. This is these are the boxes that I kind of like to set of clientele that I'll work with and, if you see it, if anyone fits those boxes, send them my way and we'll talk.
Speaker 2:And it's key to have that network. That's why I a little pat on my back here, but, you know, that's why I created, kind of. We have a networking sheet that we share. There's about 30 or so names on there and I think it's important to have those reach to other people because we won't be able to do it on our own.
Speaker 3:No, not at all.
Speaker 2:So are you alone when you work in private practice, or do you need to network in order to feel less alone?
Speaker 3:I think having a network is important. I think you mentioned the word alone. It can be a very isolating job. Being in private practice I mean exactly how you started this show is you know we've shared a wall for in the office space for almost a year and we don't ever really talk, and so we're in the same space but there's not that opportunity for connection, say at any other job. It can be very isolating. And so having that network of colleagues that you can reach out to, whether that be for a question, whether that be to grab coffee, whether it be to ask insurance questions or billing questions right, having those people that you know you can rely on for support in any way.
Speaker 2:And that's if it wasn't for this networking, I would have met you.
Speaker 3:Exactly.
Speaker 2:I mean to me that's how important the networking is, and I'm not just trying to be nice to you, but you know, it's one of those things that Courtney has introduced you and right away I felt we could get along and people like, really, that's that easy for you. I'm like you got to be able to work with people number one, but number two, you also have to trust your gut. If I had to, ooh, I would have been like no, I think we're full. No, courtney is alone in her office. No, no, no, no, she's. It's because I lie down there most of the time. So, yeah, I can't do it.
Speaker 3:I need to take a nap in her chair.
Speaker 2:Yeah, my chair doesn't work Every.
Speaker 3:Monday and Thursday yeah.
Speaker 2:But I think that the other thing that I really appreciated of you and I think that that's something that we I think that everyone in our office commonly shares, despite having many differences is that we really see our job as a therapist as a privilege, and we really enjoy being a therapist. But maybe you can tell me more about what you think are the advantages of being a therapist and what are the positives that come from that.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I think there's definitely a lot of positives, and one of those being, I think there are certain people that just have the drive and desire to help others and, especially in the space that we're in, we have the ability to really support people in going through difficult chapters of life and also just being a person that they can rely on. I think there's so much to be said about that consistency and the being able to build relationships with people and connections. I think those are definitely some of the things that excite me about being a therapist is being able to connect and relate with others.
Speaker 2:For me as a therapist. I'm always touched by people sharing very personal stories and some stuff that they said. I've never told anyone that and it's such a great thing to have. And ultimately, I also think that there's therapists may not agree and you may not agree, but I think you will. I think there's something about connecting with people is also kind of like to me as much as I joke around that I don't like people that connection with people in my office on a regular basis, on a weekly, bi-weekly, monthly basis, there's something about that that makes it say there's part of it that makes you grow as a human being. Frankly, I think it's not just as a therapist, but I don't know if you agree with me about it.
Speaker 3:I do agree with you and I think it's kind of funny because I don't find myself to be an extrovert and I laugh that I went into a field where I'm talking with people all day or I'm having people talk at me all day, and so it's kind of funny in that sense.
Speaker 3:But I think it's more than just being around people. It's building that relationship and that is one of the most important things for me, especially in those initial stages of meeting with someone is building a rapport where they feel safe, they feel seen and heard and supported. And I think part of that is also like the dance movement piece, a little bit of being able to connect with them in a way where they might not even realize that I'm connecting with them, being able to read their body language and kind of assess how they're feeling in the space, even if they're not verbalizing it. How are they holding themselves, how is their affect, how is their body language, and being able to mimic that in a way or model that and mirror them, where then maybe they're noticing it and they can open up a little bit. I think that's also a really cool part of being especially a dance movement therapist.
Speaker 2:So you're telling me I didn't have to read about micro expressions and learn all these things so that I can work with the community justice people because they wouldn't talk at the look for all these body things in order to have a conversation.
Speaker 3:You should have just become a dance movement. Therapist Steve yeah.
Speaker 2:I'm absolutely the guy. I shouldn't see it Now. I got to restart my career.
Speaker 3:There you go. It's never too late, right.
Speaker 2:But when you were saying that, that's how I can think of it Like, oh shit, it's the same thing I do.
Speaker 3:Yeah, it is yeah.
Speaker 2:You're paying attention to certain things.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 2:So, and you know, one of the things that comes to mind and I joked around with Courtney- and a couple more people about this, but so I have a few friends who are went to Leslie College in Massachusetts and I said so. When you do dance, movement therapy, is it that everyone starts breaking into like a sudden dance and they they like to put their leg up and do some plies and releves right in the middle of a session, before the session. How does this work? But I'll joking aside, how do you integrate that in your treatment?
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah, that's a great question and it's something that I always preface with any clients or people that I meet with for a consultation is I'm not expecting you to jump into ballet or jazz or modern movement, like it can be something as simple as utilizing breath work in sessions, really doing a lot of grounding and mindfulness techniques, so bringing it in in a way where it is setting a ritual for the client.
Speaker 3:What do we do at the beginning and end of the session that makes them feel comfortable, like comfortable and in their space, their space meaning like being in the space with me, where they feel comfortable and like open to share. So a lot of times it's breath work, sometimes it's movement, in a way where we stretch, we do almost like yoga practices, in a way where we can do a some salutation and, really recenter, the client in the space or after using talk therapy, to go through a really challenging process. And I think another piece of it that maybe the clients don't realize is I am using it as kind of an assessment tool, like we had said, of like where are they at today and really meeting them where they are in the space.
Speaker 2:Tell me more about assessment tool I'm curious about how you assess people?
Speaker 3:So part of our training at Leslie is movement analysis, right, noticing small movements, noticing how clients hold their body. Is it rigid, is it relaxed, are they slouched over, are they more open? And noticing those little tiny body movements to see how they're feeling. Right, they might not verbally say oh, I'm really anxious about this, but noticing, are they more closed off. One of my clients and I it's funny, it's almost a joke at this point where the zipper comes up and the body goes in and it just is me just kind of like looking at her at this point and she's like, oh, I'm doing it again. And so using it as an assessment tool for noticing when emotions are starting to kick in, when you're starting to feel certain ways, and then supporting the client with, okay, we noticed that this happened in the body. What do we do when we start to notice that? How can we then implement a skill, a support and intervention to really kind of shake off whatever is happening?
Speaker 2:Literally, literally.
Speaker 3:I just like shook it off, she just shimmered. She shimmered. I like that.
Speaker 2:I think that that's a good way to kind of like go on YouTube. It's worth it, but yeah. I think, that it's a good way to give people that feeling. I noticed body language and micro expressions and I just make an observation Do you find that when you do use some of these techniques and these assessments, do you feel like people start talking more, talking less, feel different, or I think it depends.
Speaker 3:I think part of the work as a dance movement therapist is recognizing when it's appropriate to identify it versus not. So with that one client I mentioned, I can identify it for her and she uses it as a way to really kind of notice what's going on in her body. But there are definitely some clients that maybe don't feel comfortable with that, and so then that's just a mental note for myself, and then we continue to move on and I try to use more talk therapy approaches, especially if they're not into the dance movement therapy stuff. So it can really vary client to client if they talk more or talk less.
Speaker 2:What I find interesting too, and for my colleagues in my office that will hear this, it's nothing about you guys. Well, one of the mentions that I want to do is that I don't typically dare on Mondays, but I am there on Thursdays, and one of the things that's very noticeable when people leave your session, because we tend to end just about the same time. All your clients leave with a smile. And is that by design? Is it by? I mean, it's nothing against any of my colleagues, past or in the future.
Speaker 2:And it's a very noticeable thing that I can hear laughter. I can hear a lot of great things when the session's over, and I just want to mention that because I don't know if there's anything you're doing for that, or is it just happening?
Speaker 3:I think it's just happening. I think for me, in my mindset, my goal is obviously, as we talk about structure of a session, you know we all learn how to kind of fluidly move through sessions when we're, we do I mean, maybe I did, I don't know, maybe I learned self-taught, maybe no, no, it's Leslie's great education.
Speaker 2:Leslie College, do you owe?
Speaker 3:us a few dollars here, but I think I prioritize at the end of each session a sense of grounding Right. I want to make sure that they're leaving that space feeling that they had closure from whatever we were talking about, but also ending it in a way where they feel confident to move forward with their debt. I think a big piece of that was when I was in a school. Doing so, I did outpatient therapy in a school setting, and so it was extremely important for us to make sure that that client was in the right mindset to then walk back to class Right Right and reenter into a classroom, and so I think that's a piece of it that I continue to carry with me in private practices. I want to make sure that wherever they're going next in their day, they're feeling that we had some sort of closure, and it just so happens that they're always smiling. I guess I don't know.
Speaker 2:What's interesting is I mentioned that because this is a comment I got from the late great president of my old agency, bill Taylor. I worked with people in the criminal justice system, people in crisis, and one day he was waiting in the waiting room and ultimately he said he's like, I've been watching you. Everybody leaves your session with a smile, and I said why would you ever go back to a treatment where you're leaving with us frown or you're pissed off, Right, and he's like that's brilliant. He's like is that training? I don't know, training myself? I guess I don't know. So, and the other thing I wanted to mention too and again, I don't think we have a class on this, unless you had one at Lesley. I certainly didn't have that assumption. One of the things I've learned is that if I have to extend five minutes in order for a person to leave with a smile or feel better, then I just go ahead and do it, and I don't know if you do that too.
Speaker 3:But I do. Yeah, I will go five, maybe even 10. Sometimes if it was a deep session and we're meeting a little extra time, I'll go a little bit over if it means that they are able to move into the next part of their day feeling good.
Speaker 2:It's always important for me and you know we joke about the smile and I think that's important, but I also think that it's never like all right. You just disclosed the worst trauma I've ever heard, but the session's over.
Speaker 3:Have a good day, right.
Speaker 2:I'll see you next week, right, yeah? We laugh about this and please understand, this dark humor has more to do about how we survive our shit, not about the clients.
Speaker 3:Yes, yes, yes, because we care for the clients. Definitely not about the clients.
Speaker 2:I just realized I would mention that one time of the podcast. You get a little dark sometimes I'm like, yeah, but it's not about you guys, about how I survive, my stuff, right, right. But I think it's also important when you talk about clientele. I didn't grow up this way but kind of, like people said, it's kind of you live in the military world, so if you're there five minutes early, you're early. If you're there three minutes early, you're on time. And if you're there on time, you're late. And what I do with also choosing my clientele I have police officers, I have military personnel, I have firefighters, I have medical personnel a lot work with a lot of those that personnel. And I've always said to them I said if at the end of a session you're all screwed up, I'm going to keep you on until you can at least walk out with somewhat feeling good. That means that if I'm late for five or 10 minutes of your session, I don't want to hear a freaking word.
Speaker 2:And all of them have always said you're like no, that's cool. And most of them are like you didn't need to say that. I'm assuming the person needed that and one of the things that we mentioned about the advantages of private practice. I'm so happy, not that my old clients and social services weren't understanding all the time, but when my particular clientele they're like no, I figured, steven, they needed the 10. I am not even arguing with you, and so I think that that's the other part I want to mention, because we're talking about the advantages of being in private practice. I just think that you get to choose your clients and clients who kind of understand the process.
Speaker 3:Right, 100% yeah, and recognize that you're also a human, and so they'll understand if I'm running out from being with a client before and I need to go use the restroom or I need to follow up on something quickly. They understand and they're OK with it because they know that I would do the same for them if roles were reversed. Right of you take care of you and so that way we can be in space together.
Speaker 2:I think we're done with the whole blank slate therapist. I'm sure they exist still. I'm not putting it down, but I don't know. Like I look at our office, definitely no blank slates in our office?
Speaker 3:Definitely not, no.
Speaker 2:And this is a compliment, kara Michelle Courtney, it's just a compliment, not anything else. But do you think that that's the other good shift that also brings in things like dance therapy, where we're no longer these blank slates but we bring our personality sometimes into it, not to overtake the session but to also kind of like open up that opportunity for people to know you?
Speaker 3:Yeah, and I think that's part of what breaks down the wall and helps us build relationships with them. Right, I think it's extremely hard to build a relationship with someone who's just kind of sitting there blank face, not really showing any personality at all. I wouldn't want to talk to anyone like that. It would be a hard hour, I think, to kind of sit through and so being able to share a last, being able to connect with them about whatever maybe they're talking about and it's obviously keeping boundaries and making sure that there isn't any overstepping but being able to relate with them.
Speaker 2:And I think I'm not there with your sessions. But I think that what I also kind of like feel from everyone in our office anyway is that we bring our personality, but our personality doesn't take over the session, and if something's going on or we relate a story of ours to what someone's saying and I feel like everyone in our office does that too I feel like we also don't make it about us Right, and I think that that's what people got to understand is that blank slates don't work. But if you start going, let me tell you about my freaking problems.
Speaker 3:Right, right. There's a line there and you don't want to cross over it. You know you've got to know where to be with it.
Speaker 2:You know, I once had a conversation with a client of mine and then maybe it's you know, I'd like to talk about other challenges that we have in therapy. But I remember a client of mine like, oh, we would be great friends. I said, what would you do if I started telling you about my problems? Oh, I said so that's why it's not a friendship.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:I'm a paid friend if you wish. But and it's not because we're not friendly with our clients and all that, but I sometimes feel like, because I bring my personality, as you clearly can tell, everywhere I go, because I can't fake me and I'm OK with that yeah.
Speaker 2:But the end of the day, I think there's some challenges sometimes where we can be seen as a good friend and no one's ever crossed any boundaries with me. I'm not saying that at all, but how are there like? Is that a good thing? Is that a challenge you've faced before? Are there other challenges you faced in doing counseling or therapy?
Speaker 3:Yeah. So I think in terms of like with relationships, not as much. I think challenges throughout my career were finding myself as a therapist, figuring out what is my niche, where do I fit in, how can I become an individual person as a therapist, and I think, working in some of the settings that I've been in, there's a lot of like high intensity, high pressure situations, and so that's something that has kind of shaped me a little bit. But then finding myself in private practice, I think some of those challenges were not as much related to who I am as a therapist but more as who I am as a business owner and figuring out that piece of it. And so I think there can be a different set of challenges for anyone throughout their career and it's just kind of figuring out how do I overcome this, how do I face these challenges?
Speaker 2:Well, as an older therapist, I can tell you that the challenges continue to happen, as you go along.
Speaker 3:I look forward to it.
Speaker 2:I can tell you, though, that the challenges that you face are a lot more fun. Yeah, in the sense that they're not. Oh my god, this is like a dilemma where I got to go the left or right Right and I'm like, no, these are actually more interesting. It's something that podcasting has become part of my practice, isn't it? Because, again, clients whoever I've ever worked with you can listen to this. You can think whatever hell you want, but sometimes it gets tiring. I've been doing this for 23 years, but I've been high intensity crisis work, high intensity outpatient in a community setting and, again, as my one police officer once pointed out, so of all the adults that are high functioning, you decided to take us crazy first responders and medical staff, and I'm like I'm just missing out on the teachers, and I'll be right there.
Speaker 3:There you go.
Speaker 2:And again, don't get offended.
Speaker 2:if you're offended, Call me but it's not meant as an offense, but I think that for me, one of the challenges is to learn to manage my tiredness, because, even though I love that work and I don't think I could ever do the whole other stuff and I'm not saying any other problems are less, I'm just saying I couldn't do it myself I think it's been reinventing myself as I grew. It's been one of the challenges, because the saddest day of my life and I've mentioned this before and I like to always remind people is like when in the saddest day of my life is the day I was full in my private practice. And, as I've said before too, it's because, ok, that was the goal of. Now what?
Speaker 3:Right.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and that was quite a slap on the face. So I'd like to tell you that it's a fun dilemma to be in in some ways. Right, who's going to complain about being full?
Speaker 3:Right.
Speaker 2:But at the same time it did bring another slew of challenges, and I don't know if we ever grow out of those challenges.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I don't think we do, and also part of me wonders like would we want to grow out of that? Because that keeps pushing us, that keeps us motivated. In the sense I feel that challenges can be really good sometimes to really continue to push you to reach new levels, whether that be in your personal or professional life.
Speaker 2:So if I asked you right now what's your goal in your career right now, what would you say Other than finishing this podcast, of course, that is a big goal right now, being my first podcast ever and hopefully getting through it. You're fantastic.
Speaker 3:Good. It's good. I think I like to think of, within the next year, maintaining and kind of continuing with how I've been growing my practice, and another piece of work that I really enjoy is supervising. So throughout the past two school years I've been an offsite supervisor for dance movement therapy students at Leslie for their internships, and that has been a piece of my work that I really enjoy, and so I think finding other ways to bring that supervisory piece into my work would be kind of like a more short-term goal and long-term, just continuing to see where the practice and the field takes me.
Speaker 2:I like that. I think that if one of the other things that you mentioned this at the beginning about how they don't teach us in class how all the opportunities for our jobs are the other thing, too, is we don't get to have a class that tells us that you can reinvent yourself, we can change pace.
Speaker 2:You decide you want to do less of this, you want to go do supervisory stuff, that's fine. You want to spend more time traveling and training people and coaching people, you can do that. I think that the other thing that comes to mind when I was listening to what you were saying is that I don't remember unless you. Again, I never want to say that assumption is the end, all that be all, but did you have a class as to like oh, what are your goals as a therapist in the future?
Speaker 3:Not that I can recall. I think we had conversations about it sometimes in my supervision class Within the dance therapy program. We had a very small supervision class both years that aligned with our internships and it was five to seven people in the class. We were able to have more conversations about opportunities within the field, but I think part of that was the professors I had I'm sharing about the different opportunities that they've had as a dance movement therapist, as a licensed mental health counselor, and so it opened up kind of the idea that there could be a lot of job opportunities but there wasn't ever like a goal setting. Where do you want to go with this? And I think that would be important to add. I think there are a few things that could be helpful to add to curriculum, but that's just me Well you know.
Speaker 2:The other thing too is I don't know, you may not know this, but I'm actually a child and family specialist. That's what I went to, an assumption for how many kids or families have you seen walk into my office? Right, and I think that that's the other part, too, that I wish, would like. And it's nice because being I work with people who are in their thirties, and sometimes they have kids, and they're like, oh, I have a question about this development, boom, boom, boom, boom. And I'm like, oh crap, I still remember that.
Speaker 3:It's back in the file of facts of the brain. Let me pull it out, let me.
Speaker 2:But I don't have any interest in working with kids Just because and again, you can listen all you want, but or not, you can cut it off, because that's what life is. But I just couldn't stand the parents, it wasn't the kids. I think you relate.
Speaker 3:I do. I think that is one of the hardest parts of being a child therapist is the added work of then collaborating with the parents, having the parents come to you with more concerns or other comments or questions or needs. And, yeah, I enjoy working with adults, which is kind of funny. It's like I chose to not work with children anymore because I didn't want the pressure of parents. But then I'm like but I'll work with the parents as parents, and so I think there's like very much like it's like I'll do one or the other, not both.
Speaker 2:But I find like when parents come in for themselves they tend to listen a whole lot more than for their kid. I joke around like my again dark humor, whatever you want to call it. When I worked with kids the parents were literally like hey, hold my beer for a second. And you're like what, where are we?
Speaker 3:What the hell is just going on here.
Speaker 2:What dimension did I walk?
Speaker 1:in.
Speaker 2:And so that's kind of like the joke I make. And now it's never happened that way, and I think that it's important for clients to you know the other thing too that may be a good way to think about how we choose our clients. Just a question that came to mind while we were talking can clients choose their therapist?
Speaker 3:I think so. I definitely. I think there are sometimes where I'll do consultation calls and I end it in a way where I feel like we're a good match, but I might send some hesitancy from the other party and so I leave it with kind of up to them Do you feel that we're a good fit? Because as much as I want to make sure that I can support them with whatever goal areas they have, I want to make sure that they're able to connect with me. It shouldn't be a space where you're dreading to go talk to this person. It should be, oh my gosh, yeah, I get to go, like go to therapy today, right, which maybe they're not always that excited all the time, but like I like to think that sometimes maybe they're excited in that way.
Speaker 2:I think that's the other good change from social services versus what we do, because social services is like here's Megan, she'll do your intake and this your therapist.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And so for us, I mean, like you know, if it smells like a rose and looks like a rose, it's probably a rose, and if it doesn't feel right and doesn't look right, then you got to trust that too. And I think that clients need to understand. I know I'm not everyone's cup of tea, and that's fine, there's nothing wrong with that. Megan is not the cup of tea for everyone, and that's okay and that's fine. Giving people chances to think about it in a different light might also be helpful.
Speaker 3:Definitely, I agree.
Speaker 2:Well, for someone who was nervous, you know we're getting close to the hour of Mark already.
Speaker 3:That went by fast.
Speaker 2:Right. People always say I go to the studio just being nice. I just looked at the clock and I'm like, oh my God, this went fast. So anything you want to add, anything you want to talk about, plug or whatever that you want to put in here.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I think thinking about what to plug right is a little bit about myself and a little bit about dance therapy, right. So kind of doing a little plug of if you're thinking about private practice, take the leap. It's not as scary as you think it could be. So my practice in New Leaf Counseling LLC that's my company, that's my work, which is really exciting and I love it, and thinking about other things that have brought me to where I am. So dance movement therapy obviously is why I am where I am today.
Speaker 3:And so taking a moment to plug a little bit about the American Dance Therapy Association and all of the resources that they have available on their website. It definitely has a lot of really cool resources where you can find a dance movement therapist near you. You can look at programming if you're interested in becoming a dance movement therapist. There's all the information on their website of the different tracks that are available. So, steve, there is still a chance for you to become a dance movement therapist they have a fast track of. You know, you don't have to go to a university or a college.
Speaker 2:So I'll joke again. It sounds interesting, yeah.
Speaker 3:And I think just like a quick thank you to you and Courtney and everyone who kind of supported me in this first year of private practice, like as we talked about on the podcast that you know it really does take a network of people to continue to support each other and, in turn, supporting those other's goals.
Speaker 2:I appreciate it. I will put in the show notes links to your stuff as well as the Dance Movement Therapy website. The other thing I want to mention for everyone in your stance you know, sometimes podcasts put on a show and all that fun stuff. And yes, there is a little bit of my persona in here, but I truly appreciate Megan for who she is and I don't compete with any freaking therapist in my area or anywhere in the world.
Speaker 2:And the reason why is that we're all in the same boat. We want people to feel better.
Speaker 1:If we run out of people.
Speaker 2:I'll find something else to do. I like working in supermarkets anyway, so I'll go and do that.
Speaker 1:I love that stuff.
Speaker 2:But ultimately I want to make sure, because I just feel connected to just about most therapists that I've met and most people are like, well, what if they get more clients than you?
Speaker 3:Hey, good for them.
Speaker 2:No skin off my back and I want to mention that because I think that, even though, like we're not that connected, unfortunately, because of scheduling and all that, you know, there's true love between all our the therapists in our office and there's always like oh no, that's, that's a Kara person or this is a Megan person or what have you.
Speaker 2:It's not about. Oh my God, if I don't take this client, it's going to be taken away. So for clients who feel that maybe you get pushed to someone else, maybe it's because we thought it was a better connection and it's because we don't compete with each other. It's just not. We just don't do that.
Speaker 3:Yeah, a hundred percent agree, and I think that's the beauty of the work that maybe isn't talked about. Right Is that it's not a competition. It is simply we want to help people, and if we don't feel like we're the best fit for them, how are we helping them? And if we're not, they need to go to someone that can help them.
Speaker 2:And that's why, like when you came in, and anyone who comes into my office, or even people who call me off. I want to do everything for them to succeed and I think that I get that from you and you know, that's why our I think our office is so well, it's so fun. We could hang out, but we just don't so.
Speaker 2:I just wanted to thank you and leave on that, because I think it's important for people to hear that, because sometimes they don't like really, I'm like, yeah, you can have, and I don't think you want that you have. You have 40 clients every week and that's what you want, and you can do it, and you, I've got Congratulations. Nothing's going to change in my relationship, right? I'm just going to be happy for you. Exactly, I want to put it that out there too Great, yeah, I agree. Well, I appreciate it.
Speaker 3:You were going to say something I was going to say thank you so much for for having me on the show and thanks just so much for for being a support through all of it.
Speaker 2:And you know it's interesting. While we were talking, I came up with a couple of ideas. If I ever invite you back, you're willing to come back.
Speaker 3:Yeah, definitely.
Speaker 2:Perfect. Thanks, Megan.
Speaker 3:Thank you so much, Steve.
Speaker 2:Well, this concludes episode 112 of Finding your Way Through Therapy. Megan Garvey, so much fun to get to know. You. Can't wait to continue to know you and I have a few ideas for a future season of having you on again, so hopefully you'll agree to it. But episode 113, not that the other ones are not exciting for me, but this is probably one of the most exciting returning guests that I've had in a long time. Gina Mofa is someone who is releasing a book and is someone I consider a friend. I met her through Instagram, of all places, but Gina's releasing a book. I'm so excited. It's about trauma. We've talked about trauma on this podcast on a regular basis. Me and Gina really connect on that stuff and I hope you can join us for that episode.
Speaker 1:This number is available in the United States.
