Resilience Development in Action
Discover practical resilience strategies that transform lives. Join Steve Bisson, licensed mental health counselor, as he guides first responders, leaders, and trauma survivors through actionable insights for mental wellness and professional growth.
Each week, dive deep into real conversations about grief processing, trauma recovery, and leadership development. Whether you're a first responder facing daily challenges, a leader navigating high-pressure situations, or someone on their healing journey, this podcast delivers the tools and strategies you need to build lasting resilience.
With over 20 years of mental health counseling experience, Steve brings authentic, professional expertise to every episode, making complex mental health concepts accessible and applicable to real-world situations.
Featured topics include:
• Practical resilience building strategies
• First responder mental wellness
• Trauma recovery and healing
• Leadership development
• Grief processing
• Professional growth
• Mental health insights
• Help you on your healing journey
Each week, join our community towards better mental health and turn your challenges into opportunities for growth with Resilience Development in Action.
Resilience Development in Action
E.114 Addressing Mental Health Challenges in First Responders: A Journey of Awareness, Support and Healing
Picture this: You're a first responder, racing against the clock to save lives, and the stress, trauma, and emotional toll are building up. How do you cope? This episode features a frank, heart-to-heart discussion with Jay Ball, a sergeant with the Framingham Police Department, and Brian Harkins, a firefighter in Stoughton, Massachusetts, who bravely open up about the mental health challenges faced by first responders.
Together, we blow the whistle on the stigma surrounding mental health and the importance of peer support. As we navigate through their personal experiences, we offer insights on how to change the culture within departments, the significance of leadership, and the power of informal debriefing. Brian, drawing from his own journey, offers an inside look at how he faced his struggles and now assists others in doing the same.
Finally, we address the often overlooked aspect of maintaining a life outside of work and the role of loved ones in supporting a first responder's mental health. From exploring non-traditional therapy options to breaking down stigmas, we aim to empower our invaluable first responders to seek help when needed. So join us, as we stand with our heroes, addressing critical issues and exploring ways to improve mental health support for those who dedicate their lives to public safety.
Hi and welcome to Finding your Way Through Therapy. The goal of this podcast is to demystify therapy, what can happen in therapy and the wide array of conversations you can have in and about therapy Through personal experiences. Guests will talk about therapy, their experiences with it and how psychology and therapy are present in many places in their lives, with lots of authenticity and a touch of humor. Here is your quick tip. Here's your host, steve Bisson.
Speaker 2:Bonjour tout le monde. Thank you, and here's my new type of intro. Welcome to episode 114. If you haven't listened to 113 yet, please go back and listen to it. Gina Mofa talks about her book. Gina Mofa Talks About Life. Just looking forward for you guys to listen to that one.
Speaker 2:But today is also an exciting day. I'm going to be interviewing two returning guests one who is, I think, on episode one and has been on nine times since then J-Ball Sergeant at the Framingham Police Department in Massachusetts. And we're going to have Brian Harkins, who's a firefighter in Stoughton, Massachusetts. He's been on before with another firefighter. I know this is going to be a dynamic interview, so I hope you enjoy it. And here's the interview. Well, hi everyone, and welcome to episode 114, 114 episodes. I can't believe I've done that. And there's a guy who has been on every season, but the last season he kind of blew me off last season. He's busy. He's a professor now. He's got a lot of stuff going on and of course he obviously knows I'm joking, If not, he lives down the street, so if you see him disappear from the screen he's coming after me. But, Jay, you've been on the most of anyone on my show, so you're still going to be up there, so J-Ball welcome.
Speaker 3:Thank you. Yeah, living down the street from you, I can't even hide my car from you.
Speaker 2:You try a lot, though I've noticed that. And then we've got Brian Harkins, and Brian is someone who was on the show last year and talked about firefighters and Brian was such an entertaining and I just got engaged to everything he was saying. And, of all people, it was J-Ball who recommended you coming on and I'm like, hey, this is the perfect combo. So, brian, welcome to finding your way through therapy a second time. Thanks for having me back. Appreciate it. I need to put it out there.
Speaker 2:You guys know, obviously, but for me, the first responders' mental health particularly, is something that is a deer to my heart and it's not something that I take lightly. And I think that what we tend to forget is I'm going to always do at least one episode about first responders every season until you guys say stop. But even if you say stop, I'll keep on doing it, because we don't really recognize some of the stressors that are very unique to first responders. And I'm talking a lot here, but I just want to make sure everyone knows listening, and you guys obviously knew that. But we just need to continue talking about it. That's why I'm never going to get tired of talking about it. But speaking of a guy who talks a lot. That's me. Now you're turning for you guys to talk about Brian. How about you introduce yourself to the audience who may not have caught your episode yet?
Speaker 4:So my name is Brian Harkins. I'm a Stoke and Firefighter paramedic. I've been in emergency medical services for 32 years. I started off in the Army Desert Shielded Storm, which was my first little traumatic incident happening. It just kind of snowballed from there, doubled the Department of Corrections five years prior to getting on the Friday Department and after my mental health breakdown 2015, I've been on the other side of the fence trying to assist people so that they don't follow my path and fall into the same problems that I had. Well, welcome Brian. That's just what I've heard. Thanks for having me.
Speaker 2:Jay, how about you introduce yourself? For what? The eighth time, then? How?
Speaker 3:are you doing? Jay Ball, Sergeant with the Framier Police Department Obviously Framier Mass, United States Army veteran with some deployments, and currently I'm also teaching at a psychology college in Massachusetts.
Speaker 2:Well, welcome, jay, and I was at a conference last week I think, but by this time it's going to be a month's ago and it was great to see Jay in action as a teacher, professor, whatever the hell we're supposed to call it, and it was just very interesting to see him. It was nice to have. I've been to a lot of these. It's an actual conference for mental health, and first responders Tends to be a lot more police officers than anything else, but I've seen it grow exponentially every single year. This year, that auditorium was pretty full and that was really, really good.
Speaker 2:But I guess my first question that I want to throw out to both of you, because it's something that I still find that there's some resistance from first responders in regards to mental health. I know that we've talked about this multiple times, but for me, until we break that wall, we're going to keep on talking about it. So why is it still a barrier for some to reach out for help for mental health at this point in time I mean 2023, we should get it by now.
Speaker 3:I'll speak on our side. I don't want to be police versus fire but I can say from my experience in policing I think I've said it before is culture number one and two leadership. I know at our place from the top down if somebody needs help, there's no questions asked almost and I'm not throwing the chief and the deputies under the bus, but if someone's having a struggle or someone needs help or something comes down the line, the deputies and chiefs know who to reach out to. They know who's close. We have got 140-something people right now in our job but they know exactly who's close with each other. And hey, jay, if it gets this level, let me know. But this person's struggling. And I think that leadership from the top goes down to the shift level and the division level with detectives and all that, and I think everyone in those positions does at least one person, if not everyone, on the shift level and detectives and the other special units that buy in to mental health. So at our place we're not perfect, but I think it's our culture and from the top. But there's other places that I think, and I'm not picking on smaller towns, I mean it could happen in large cities too.
Speaker 3:But I think that stigma involved where they're going to take my firearm, they're going to not let me go out on the road. Well, that may happen if certain circumstances. But how about if it's just you need to talk to someone? Are you worried what the guy next to you or the girl next to you thinks? So I think that stigma happens at a lot of police departments.
Speaker 3:I know in class yesterday we were doing we do a veteran's suicidality class with firearms at the college and the question was posed so how do I tell someone it's safe to go talk to someone because they think they're going to lose their firearm? And I kind of posed it this way. Let's talk about veterans. There'd be about 50% of departments veterans would just leave tomorrow. If someone said they were depressed and anxiety, a mixture of the both PTSD you'd lose them. It doesn't mean that person's not effective in their job, whether it be a first responder or anything. So I think it's just it's belief from the top down and sometimes it has to come from maybe the bottom, maybe the middle, encouraging the leaders in the police department to open their minds to people need help.
Speaker 2:Okay, what about you, brian? What do you think?
Speaker 4:So I think for us the easiest side is we don't lose a firearm, we don't lose that part of the job. So we have it a little bit easier on our side of the fence. And all fairness for the team blue, but I am fortunate to work for a department that actually cares and I reached out to you today. I know this won't air for a while, but while some of you was in crisis and they department is at least making the effort, I just happen to have a few more resources. I've been at it a little bit longer, but the intention and support was 100% there. They're just not as into the system as I am, so we were able to reach out, get that connection set up. So it's all good. I come in when I'm having a bad day or something happens. I tell the young guys at roll call like that's enough, don't be me, because you're going to be me someday if you're not careful. And slowly but surely, when the young kids made a comment like Mount Hulks and Port and I grabbed them a little while later, I'm like you, like bust my balls. Are you serious? You go. No, I'm serious. I'm like you know we're getting through. So we're working on it. We're getting there and there are police officers that are on my PS4 group that comes in and who the chief was like you never dealt with this. I don't want to deal with it Like go away and do some phone calls, some connections, and they were able to get some help. But I think, as we keep beating that drum, as long as guys like Jay myself just keep listening to okay, we all have issues and keep beating it down.
Speaker 4:And Travis Howes just spoke at the PFFM convention this week. I was going to try to make it to that thing you guys had this past week, but we had our own convention. If you don't know, travis Howes he was a former police officer, became a firefighter. He was part of the Charleston Nine Firefighters that were killed years ago and he gave a great talk and people came out kind of shaking their heads. And he's talking again in July, which would be good as long as people like him. He gets up, he's very engaging, he tells a story and people came out instead of like what the heck is this? I don't need this crap. People were actually engaged and actually wanted to meet him and talk to him and bought his book and slave was surely the words getting out there and we need people like that needing from the front. And they are there. Mike's a group on the police side of things. He's doing a great job on the police side. We're getting there. We just have to keep beating that drum.
Speaker 4:And, like Jay mentioned a little bit about small-time police, the person that put us in touch with each other when I first met Jay, just bashing a small town while you can sit there and say, listen, I'm big city, shut up, jay's big city shut up. You're not us. But yet when this person's just bashing calls, they know them. You know what I mean. I don't know the people. I go to the gun shots, I don't know them.
Speaker 4:She's bumping into the families at the store, the grocery store, this and that, and that's a whole different level and we need to stop trying to one up each other and start to sit there and say your problems, your problems. However you got there, they're yours, let's fix it. And that's a big change in my own education and getting more experience of doing that. So a lot of people, a lot of things happen today that made me very proud to be part of what we're doing and so many phone calls went out and so many connections were made and I got more people looking to jump on to to help and out. So it's happening, it's working, that people seeing it actually working. So, so long when it's so, I was, like it says, I'm trying to get excited about this stuff.
Speaker 2:So, especially when we have successes like we had today, Well, I get excited too, actually, and so please continue to be excited, because that's the only way you're going to get through, because one of the ways and again, you guys, I want to hear a little bit about what you think but one of the things I had a firefighter recently come in struggling and I'm not like the other guys and the other guys don't have my issues, blah, blah, blah. And I said to him I said someone has a physical health issue in your, in your department, whatever it is. I don't want to even say it because you never want to wish it on anyone. It's the great equalizer, right, because everyone's going to be there for them. But you know, whatever injury, whatever they have, you're going to be there for them.
Speaker 2:Why is mental health not the same equalizer? Because, I mean, I look at you guys, you're already on you, you bought into the system, so to speak. But how do we not? We convince people that? You said leadership, but I also think that, on a other level, it's people seeing that mental health is as important as physical health, and I know who wants to go first, but that's just my view.
Speaker 3:I don't know. That's that's one thing I always say. You know, I always start on. I will say that's all. First day we use that class. When I first started teaching, it was if I drop the heart attack right now and I've said it on this show before and I want to keep beating that you know, you know saying the same thing but if I drop the heart attack right now, everyone knows what to do. We're going to get the AED, we're going to call the fire department EMS, we're going to get, we'll get them here, ok. Well, what's the difference? And I've noticed with younger guys I don't think it's across the board, but even in service, I've been teaching in service and I'm lucky, I did it through a will be about seven or eight smaller PDs this year and this mental health in service to Massachusetts for police every year I'm not sure, brian, they do it. Housing service for fire departments, done not to get off track.
Speaker 4:So we don't do it in service. We just do a connet for our paramedics that said we don't do what you guys do, the sexual harassment, if anything some departments just mandated online. So it's completely different from what you guys do.
Speaker 3:So we had we had two classes this year and we usually have something to do with mental health every year and I wanted to do this with with the seven, seven, the eight G's, maybe even nine departments or all departments. Guys I knew from my previous department and it was good because you sit there and I kind of hit sad because now I get annoyed watching, watching people. They're either not paying attention or whatnot, but some of those same people afterwards I think they're so worried they'll come up after class and they'll start Jay, just so you know where can I get help. Or, jay, just so you know, hey, I went to the on site academy. Hey, jay, just so you know.
Speaker 3:And I'm like, oh wow, and that's something that never would have been said years ago. I'm not sure if I directly answered your question, but it was kind of like in my head and thinking about how, how people it's changed, because no one would have ever come up to me five years ago, ten, ten, let's say ten years ago, and never said that hey, jay, I went to the on site academy. You're right, it's the best thing I ever did, jay, I went here. I just think the the buy-in's better and I'm glad we're doing mental health every year. So people when they see me coming they're like oh well, it's either about narcotics or mental health. My heart's about mental health this year. Like I said, the receding hairline and the grades that are somewhere I go, that's the old life with narcotics. I said so that's kind of like why we want to say that part. So I don't know what you got, brian.
Speaker 4:So I think the stigma came up this past week as well of I feel weak by saying something and to try to get that through. But I find the other problem is people don't know what to do when somebody comes up and says I'm suicidal, or when the phone call I get this morning was literally I don't know what to do, I don't know what to say and it's hard to have that adult conversation to say, are you going to kill yourself? Because people still think, well, I'll put the idea in their head and we have to get to the point and a lot of it is not very good at a lot of things in life, but I'm good at kind of breaking down these walls and getting people to open up a little bit when they don't want to. I think I, just just from talking to people for 32 years, I'm good at just kind of knowing their strengths and weaknesses and I know that person I can bounce on and I know that person I just kind of tip toe around. So I think as long as we just keep, I think we just need to keep listening and I think when people reach out and we have those resources available like the person that called today was like I can't look like in $48 you already have an appointment for this person. And then I'm like, yeah, because I go deep. I talk to people, I ask I'll text people, I'll ask questions. I make myself available 24 seven.
Speaker 4:I can't promise I can fix everything, but I certainly point people in the right direction and you don't have to always be the you know the hero with the cape to save the day, but at least if you know what I refer people, you know if I get a cop I might be like this is I don't know, I'll call Jay. And if Jay gets a firefighter, he's like I don't know how to call me. Like I'll be available. We'll take the office three o'clock and one, I don't care. That's what we're doing in slavery. Surely we're getting more buy-in. So I just got a huge buy-in from somebody today who's pretty well known and respected in certain areas and it's like I mean, whatever you need, tell me what I can do, I'll do whatever we need to do. So as long as things like that keep happening and people keep seeing the success, it's just going to keep growing, as long as we keep having successes. One thing, steve, also go off with.
Speaker 3:Brian said it's almost a challenge to people in police departments and fire departments, ems. I hope there's more than one person. But be the one person in your department that when you're having a conversation with someone, it doesn't need to start out. We had an officer and I know it's going to air down the line, so I'm not throwing anything out there but we had an officer just lost his mom in pretty circumstances that I know I don't want to be in what he was at the time and it's almost when you get the call from me, it's almost like hey, what's that? I'm not the most therapeutic person in the world. Yeah, that's, steve knows. But usually when you get the call from me, the texture of me hey, dude, you doing all right. The first five minutes we dance around and we talk stuff, and then all of a sudden and hey and this isn't specific to this person, but usually they'll get something back with hey, I may need to talk to someone. Or hey, you know what I was thinking about this the other day or hey, be that person, you don't have to start that conversation out with hey, you should go talk to someone, but it always dances around with another officer that's retiring. A big part of his identity is being a police officer. The conversation after the first 10 minutes of him and I talking was I'm not going to be a police officer anymore, I'm retiring and be that person in the department Hopefully there's 15 of them. But the big thing is confidentiality and we're talking about breaking an arm. These guys that come into me they're like oh, my gout's killing me. Jay, god, I got to do a detail today. We're easy, we'll joke about the gout or we'll go get help for that, but we won't help ourselves when there's other things going on. Okay, yeah, you can't walk because of the gout, but two days ago you were just at and I'll use a fire snare, you were just at a deadly fire, but you won't go talk to someone about that.
Speaker 3:Even as a police officer and I've said it before the first thing I used to do when I investigated fires I would show up on scene and I would meet up with the deputy chief or the chief and the counterpart and the first thing I would say was are all the firefighters all right? And I learned that that question was good, because they're physically maybe all right. Nothing collapsed, they were pulled out of the fire, but if it's a fatal, I wasn't thinking of okay. Well, two weeks down the line, two hours down the line, asking if they were all right at that time was caring of me, I would say. But did I ask the next day when I went to the fire department is everyone all right? Because maybe they came across a body or maybe they had to save someone's life?
Speaker 3:And that's the way I always thought was. I always thought it was the right thing to say to the firefighters. But then did I ask them two days later how they were doing? You know, is everyone all right? Because my thing was physical, okay, no one got hurt, nothing collapsed on a firefighter. They didn't have smoke inhalation, but we didn't. I never thought years ago that meant a health piece.
Speaker 2:And I think that you bring up a very interesting point that I see regularly too, because I think you're absolutely right. What I've always noticed is that people again it's not like in a movie you know there's a collapse, there's a fatal vehicle accident, where both police and fire show up, can be very hard for a whole lot of guys, but they're not going to be like that ghost and that frozen face right away. It may come up a day or two or three or even a week later, and what I kind of remind people is that saying you're okay is also a very think about the leading point of that question hey, are you okay? No, people will be like oh, you want me to say I'm okay, right, because that's what we imply, right, and this is something that it's almost sorry for hooping on both of your, the culture in both, but that's where we've always implied in the police and the fire, right? Hey, are you okay? You want the person to say yes, just so that it doesn't come up.
Speaker 2:Anything else and that's part of what I was talking about was wondering about changing the culture, a little bit like being able to ask the other question hey, everything all right.
Speaker 2:Do you want to talk about it or not. And then following up like I tell people it's not the first day, it's sometimes a week later that really fucks up the person and I think that that's part of the changing of the culture is to tell people like, check in little later on, hey, everything okay. I think that the last time Brian was on we talked about how firefighters get to go to the station after a call and maybe sit around the table and have a coffee and talk about it. I was really fucked up but I was tough Police, get all right, I'm leaving the scene and then you go to the next call if there's another call, but you're alone again. I think that there's a lot to be said about following up regularly and most people don't want that and I don't know if you think I'm absolutely nuts as a mental health counselor, but truthfully that's why I think is also missing as the culture in the police and fire departments.
Speaker 3:Steve, I would tell you the I don't know if I brought it on the show around Christmas time at 10 day old baby passed away. Did I bring that up on the show by chance?
Speaker 2:I don't recall.
Speaker 3:We may have had that private conversation, but I don't think it was here, so I was the CO that night, which in our department the lieutenants usually the CO, they're inside, they're in charge of the shift, then the senior sergeant. So I was in this night because the lieutenant wasn't there and we had a 10 day old not breathing. The officers shot over there. It was early, early, early early in the morning, so obviously we're doing our thing. So we got there just a little before the fire department and the officers come into this. This 10 day old firefighters get there and we work together with them and at that point our transition is I wasn't there, but we all saw what was going on and the child probably wasn't going to make it, which the child didn't. But we had to set up one crime scene. Sadly, because he can't just say it 10 day old passed away. We set up the crime scene and then we have to one's fire transports, we have to go to the hospital, because that's now the child's at the hospital. But it was almost.
Speaker 3:And I want to say this once again to leadership you don't need to have I say this all the time you don't need to have stripes, stars and bars, informal leadership. You don't need to be the CO sitting on the desk, all these officers. Like you said, steve, now I got the house shut down, I got the officers guarding the child at the hospital and then we have more calls going on. But at some point you need to think, as a leader, is I need to call these officers in one by one. I need to relieve the guy at the hospital. He doesn't need to go in the room and stand next to the the cease, but so we can take down that contact but call your officers and call your firefighters. And I know you said firefighters, you'll go back and that's awesome. So call your officers back to the station. Hey, how are you doing? Here's the deal. Cut the bullshit, don't tell me if I know. No one sees a 10 day old deceased child and says, oh, I'm good.
Speaker 3:And there were some guys that were like yeah, I'm good, I'm good, okay, whatever. Do you think? There were some that I knew they weren't good but someone else had to talk to them because they didn't want to talk to the sergeant. And then I had others that felt comfortable enough that said, hey, can I take like a half an hour? Hey, take as much time as you want. This is a good night because we had a lot of people on, but that's the one thing. And if fire goes back and sits around the table and talks, that's awesome.
Speaker 3:But, like you said, police are going to different calls. Slow down, slow down. Call the officers in one at a time sometime during the night and see how they're doing. Do you need to go up to the gym? Do you need to go just to have a coffee? Do you need to sit around with us and, you know, maybe in dispatch and talk a bit, so we're not just sitting in a car in a parking lot at four in the morning thinking about what you just saw. I just want to add that part.
Speaker 4:Well, I think, to touch upon what I said, jay, is that you know we'll go back to the station after a call and we'll just kind of self-propeak what you do right, what you do wrong.
Speaker 4:And it's harder for you guys because you've got to go northeast, south and west and back to districts and do what you have to do. You guys, you probably do meet up in the middle of some point, but it's easier for us because our jobs are just, our roles are a little bit different. So we're all going back to the same place where you guys are kind of going in separate directions. In a bigger city you can't just sit across town in two seconds to go hang out. But I think the way that I found getting people to talk more is just, I don't come right out of them and say, hey, tell me about that 10 week old, it's a 10 day old. I'll just be like hey, will you northeast, south or west tonight? Oh, geez, wow, it's a little bit. How long is it to get there? And you know, oh, wow, you know I'll come up with other stupid questions and just get them talking about that call. And the minute they start, hey, would you? We first on scene. Second, third, like who's in charge? It's you, who's writing the report, who's in shift, commander? And by the time, and all of a sudden it's like okay, what time do you get to call? How'd you do? Who was your role? And they threw it before they realized what's going on.
Speaker 4:And it's an informal way of doing a debriefing without me saying okay, jay, when I sit down with a debrief you're like I don't know. But I'm able to just kind of like hey, are you the sergeant You're inside, like would you do? How'd you do it? Who'd you talk to? And then you just get rolling and some people just can't shut up once they get talking. And that's that's what's been successful for me and that's how Tom Greenloft and the police side of things he taught me and I and I took that to heart when he talked about that and from the fire side it's easy.
Speaker 4:We'll tend to get to shift seven, eight, you do well calls, you do training, breakfast, like then all of a sudden you get that conversation going and you just go through the day and it just kind of it's an informal way to do it and it's just been successful for me. So I think it's like I said, it's harder for the police. I don't know what you can do. You meet in the center for for a half hour, or you bring them all back for half. I don't know, but I like your idea of giving them that you need 30 minutes to go, change your uniform, take a shower, whatever you got to do. And just at 30 minutes is not going to end the world. It's going to actually make them a better roster when they get cleaned up and they feel refreshed and ready to go and feel like somebody actually cares.
Speaker 2:Cause I know what we talk about, sysm or I can't remember the other four letter acronym we used for that stuff but sometimes those take a couple of days to get together and all that. And I know, is it still stigmatized a little bit? Because I remember I haven't done this in about well, I want to say eight years now, but I remember doing SysM and there was quite the stigma of whoever speaks up, you, literally you'd see the rest of the guys roll their eyes, and I don't know if that's still the case or not, but I wanted to throw that out too, because SysM's do exist. They can be beneficial. They got to be a lot faster than, unfortunately, what we can now with capacity sometimes. But I don't know if that's still the same with SysM as it changed, as it evolved, or is what are your thoughts on that? Crisis intervention, stress management, just so I tell all my audience what that means. You're turning to go first, brian. You can't always defer to Jayman. He's seen it. I don't know, I guess.
Speaker 4:So again it's, there's a couple of things to have with SysM that I don't like. When you make it mandatory, I don't like that making anything mandatory because people shut down. And I think when you do put in a group without a little bit of like talking to people, you have to know your audience. I can't go to Framingham police tomorrow and be like I, every lineup would do this, because it'll you have to build a little bit of credibility and maybe I kind of win, I shoot the breeze a little bit and get to know people a little bit, and I want you to build that trust up a little bit. The last SysM thing I was actually involved in I showed up because people like they need to see you there so that they that they'll talk. And it's in my small town job that I work in and people started talking and once the quote unquote Visly veterans started talking and I'm the first volunteer because I don't care. Then other people started talking and slowly was surely we'll kind of work that in there.
Speaker 4:I've heard departments make it a mandatory mental health class. You have to attend it, but you don't have to talk and it's like why put them in that spot, cause all you do is piss them off, and the more we make things mandatory, the less people are going to want to do it. So I think there's better ways to go about it, and knowing your audience is key. Can I throw something in there? I don't know if the last time I talked to you or not, a friend of mine from uh, fight a pop and be shell to me said hey, I want you to come and add you two cents to this meeting that we're having with the administration. Did I tell you about this last time? He did not mention that. Nope, so I showed up just thinking it was. I was just going to have my two cents and this, you know me, I like to throw my two cents out. And apparently I was the guest of honor and I didn't know it.
Speaker 4:So they brought the executive leadership from the police of fire, the town administrators, and it was a lot of people there and it was actually kind of nice and I went through my story. They had the psychologists there that was riding in the cruises with them, and after that day I got two phone calls. One from the red team went from the blue team saying we get some in crisis, and I said we're going to both placed and I don't do followups. I tend to leave people alone. I don't want to. If they want to tell me, great. But once I make that connection I feel like I've done my part and I kind of back off a little bit.
Speaker 4:But that was beneficial and a lot of people responded well to it. They executive leadership, understood, because they did mention the EAP and I'm like I don't, who is a EAP? I don't know who they are. Why am I going to tell some between two people sitting behind the counter doing their internship? I have no idea who they are. And it was received very well. So that we are slowly, we're surely getting through these. So hopefully, that's the part when I told them you forced anything on anybody. They're not going to respond. Well, so it is getting out there. So we are slowly, we're surely chipping away.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and Brian brings up a great point, brian's going to get. I mean, I say this now because I know Brian, but you know Brian's going to get me to talk. But I think sometimes with the system we don't. There's no black and white board that says, okay, death of a child, we got to get system there. A car accident? Well, we'll see if we get. It seems sometimes what I see. It's sometimes we have it, sometimes it's don't. Like hey, is there a system coming in for this? No, and then two weeks later, something that maybe in my mind is lesser, we have, we have, there's a system for that.
Speaker 3:But what happens is someone like Brian and I'm going to talk.
Speaker 3:But when you see a lot, especially that I see an RN police, wise is they're not, they shut down, they don't want to talk in front of anyone. But then two seconds later, if you get the elks of the VFW, the whole story's coming out in front of strangers and I'm thinking all right, so I know why it's happening. Like you sit, it's like you just were in a room with guys and girls you work with, didn't say a word. Obviously something probably bothered you. But then once and I'm not even saying the beer, the alcohol is flowing, but you're now in a bar and you're telling I don't know if it's a war story or if it's, I do know it is, it's part of that person's therapy. But now we're telling civilians or strangers on the street exactly what we should have said to people like Brian in that Sism meeting. You know, and that's sometimes why I try and get across they go well, the first one tells a story out of here, but when we've got the professionals or peer support people here, we're not talking about it.
Speaker 2:The other part that you just I know a little bit about peer support, but how has that developed overall, the peer support, because this is not something that's been around for 50 years, really right.
Speaker 3:Yeah, brian, if you want to talk about peer support, because we're still developing. Our police, in my opinion, are way behind on peer support, and the MPTC, which is the Massachusetts Police Training Council, last year was a big thing. Formed peer support. Formed peer support, had a lot of good classes on it, but we're still in police-wise infancy, so I want to defer to Brian.
Speaker 4:So what all we are is? We're that middle person, that person who right after that, call so something happened in Framingham tonight. Jay says can you get down here? I'll be in my car in five minutes. I'm on the way to Framingham and all I am is just that person to say see how you doing what's going on today and I'll do those. Hey, you said at four, it's now midnight, what time are you supposed to? You know, all those questions get you talking. I'm just that middle person who is just going to take the edge off you, release a little bit of that pressure that's going on inside your brain, to settle you down a little bit and say listen, I've been there, done that, you know what I mean. It's no big deal. There's what it is.
Speaker 4:There's a lot of misconceptions about treatment and I heard it recently well, I want to be tied to a bed. Well, you're not tied to a bed, and there's a lot of that misunderstanding of what's going on. And listen, I worked in the Department of Corrections for five years. I'm a firefighter, paramedic, I've been around a little bit. When I went to McLean's I was terrified. I thought I was going to be fighting for my food. I thought I was going to be stabbed because I'm wearing some uniform. Like it couldn't have been any further from the truth and there's a lot of those people that still know that. So that's what my job is. It's just to kind of put that connection to the professionals, like what happened today.
Speaker 4:So somebody called me. I'm like, oh shit, is what we got to do. I reach out to my network. I made a ton of phone calls, things are hooked up. I step back. That's what the peer support is. We're that middle person, that bridge to get you from holy shit. You're in crisis because we could have made decisions to call 911. Do we need to section? Do we need to go down and physically grab them and bring them out? And that's all we are. It's just that middle person, just that voice of reason. That person has been there, seen a little things and can just kind of say it's going to be all right. That's what the peer support is. It's just that bridge. I hope I explain that well enough, but in my head it sounds clear.
Speaker 2:No, I think that was very clear.
Speaker 3:And what Brian says. One thing and to hear you saying, being in uniform, am I going to fight over food? That's such a I think that's maybe how I would think and I wish more people would come forward. And obviously it takes a lot, but people have gone to McLean's, people have gone to onsite. Anyone that's ever come up to me and said that was Jay, you know, it's the best thing ever. And some people who I would never have expected or never knew, because none of my business has said, oh my God, jay, you just brought up this in this PowerPoint. Going to McLean's or going to the onsite Academy or going wherever, and the best thing, jay. I'm like, oh, I'm glad that I don't want to be like almost described, but as people have come up to me, I'm like, wow, okay, I never knew you went there. First of all, thanks for sharing that with me and second of all, that's awesome to tell more people, because I know that if I had to go to McLean's, what you just said, brian, is absolutely 100% right.
Speaker 3:Because of movies we've seen, because of TV shows we've seen over the years and you know we're all the same age it was the stigma of Santa. I don't want to say one flu or the cuckoo's nest or stuff like that, but what we saw growing up was you're going to be in a room, that's going to be a TV, you're going to be in a white coat, People are going to treat you bad, and I think that's something that people like yourself. Brian, you just said it perfectly. I wasn't fighting over food. No one's hurting me, you know that's huge.
Speaker 4:It was the single handedly the best thing I ever did. And then actually on my background is, you know, white four kids, married 28 years, and I didn't want to lose what I have. I don't have addiction problems. I'm not a big drinker, I don't use the drugs Even though we could do a whole other podcast on why we can't do gummies but I can drink 17 beers and 18 shots of whiskey before going into my shift tomorrow. That's cool. Just don't do a gummy. Then go get a good night's sleep.
Speaker 3:Just had that conversation in Washington State at a conference.
Speaker 4:That's it. I'm kind of getting on that bandwagon with the whole. There's other ways, so we've got to come up with other ways of having people get hammered at bars and drinking themselves silly before they go home and cause more problems.
Speaker 3:No one thing like you brought that up conversation I had with one of my I hate saying one an officer the other day no, he's a friend of mine was that his big thing? He said you know, I'm got him older. I said what's that? He goes because if I was 25 years old, I'd be drinking myself to death right now and I'm like all right. Well, I don't know how to totally explain that, but part of it was a family of kids and I think that was in the back of his mind. But how do we get to that 25 year old, though? That's the other thing, cause some that was what some people have said to me and this, this person, my friend, this officer, said to me those if I was 20 years ago, I'd be drinking myself to death. So right.
Speaker 2:Well, I'm just going to tell you, as a therapist, when someone says the drinking stuff, I'm like oh, so you're not using Prozac, you're using Budweiser. Okay, that's a good anti-depressant, except it's a depressant, but that's okay, go ahead. And so you know, I joke around about that, but it's kind of make a point of yeah, so you're dealing with it in a different way, you're just self-medicating in a way that's socially appropriate, but God forbid any of you guys take a freaking gummy, because I'm going to lose my shit if you take a gummy. But point being is that I think that it's important to break down a few things, cause I think that you're right, everyone expecting nurse ratchet at McLean's, at onsite down in Maryland or a couple of other places that I know of, and like no, I've never seen nurse ratchet. I've actually seen nurse ratchet more the ER sorry, my ER nurses than I've seen in in patient setting, just saying. But I think that that's the the two things I want to mention, because the self-medication is something that happens a whole lot Because, like you said, I can have 12 beers before my shift and that's fine and there's nothing wrong with that, but ultimately that's the same shit as taking a Prozac If you really you really think about it. So I think that what maybe we can shift a little bit is the.
Speaker 2:The one thing that's frustrating for me too is as a therapist, people expect me and that this has happened more frequently than I care to say. They come in like so you're going to analyze me, I'm just going to ask you questions. You want to talk, you talk, you don't want to talk? I don't give a crap, you just do what you need to do I. But I'm assuming you're here for help. So you know, the more you tell me the truth, the more it helps you. But I think that there's also some misconceptions about mental health and going to see a therapist. Do you think that that plays a factor? Also Because, as much as I love McLean's onsite, I think that we also skip sometimes because we wait till it's too far ahead. How about we get to where mental health can be approachable on a mental health counselor basis?
Speaker 4:Here's why I think I get through to people, because I don't. My story is my story. My story is no different than anyone else and I don't try to preach woes me, because we all have a story. Where I think I'm finding my success is that we don't tell our spouses what's going on. We don't tell them what's going on. So my wife, she talks. You know, not a bad thing, but she likes to talk, and when I come through the door after doing a shitty call, I don't want to hear 75 different things. I need time to process and get my head right, and it took a little bit of time. But now she leaves me alone. I come back to the room, I send stuff down, I do what I gotta do, I relax and when I'm ready to socialize I'll go out.
Speaker 4:We don't tell our spouses what's going on and I hear it all the time my wife sucks, she doesn't get it. My husband sucks, he doesn't get it. Well, have you explained what's going on? Well, no, they won't get it. Well, of course, they're not gonna get it if you're not explaining. You have to explain what's going on. I had to explain how you're feeling and unfortunately there are spouses who are like well, I work in this field and that's more important, and they don't understand what we do and that creates some issues. But I think the more we explain to our families and more we explain to our significant others that we love and care about that, this is what's going on in my head.
Speaker 4:I can't process a dead child. I can't do it. And when I had my breakdown I couldn't process it, like I was in my hands and knees bawling my eyes out of the hospital Like they're gonna two-year-old childs the worst thing I've ever seen, and it doesn't get easier. And I can tell you this some of the worst calls in my career I've processed them all except for the two-year-old girl that broke me and that was eight years ago. I just can't get through that one call.
Speaker 4:But I will tell my wife when I do a shitty call, text her or call. I'll be like, and she knows I get the group coming up and she knows I have resources and she'll, she'll how me, she'll know when things aren't quite right and I'll be like I'm fine, I know to talk to you. I'll reach out to people because I don't wanna burden her with it, because I have resources and we have to be better about telling them what's going on so that they know. You know being an asshole when you walk through the door. I just need to.
Speaker 4:How do you process it? A near-dead two-year-old kid like? How do you process that? How do you process a 10-day-old baby? I don't know. I don't know the answer. If I did, I'd be a lot richer and I wouldn't be sitting where I am right now. I'd be in a tropical island somewhere. I don't have the answers, but you just have to. Let me work through it and I find you know, video games is a thing for me, and camping life is how I process my stuff. So we have to get better at telling our loved ones, telling our kids, what's going on so that they know that they don't take it personally when we're having a day. We just I lost in our own little brains.
Speaker 3:So Now, I agree, I never was part of that thought process. I'm still only about 75% there, but I how do I say this? I'm 100% exactly what you said, brian. I agree with you. I'm only about 75% there, but I wasn't until I heard Dave Augusta, who was a Lawrence cop. He did part of our insert. Well, he did a video about his life and grow up in Lawrence. I knew him, actually, his dad too. Oh, I was a little kid there. Lawrence cops and Dave says similar thing.
Speaker 3:You know, how do you expect your significant other to understand if you're not talking to them and you don't have to, and correct me if I'm wrong, brian you don't have to tell them every single detail but what you dealt with. Sometimes I sit there and listen to the news or watch the news and some horrific things that I know that I would have trouble with. Just the other day in Ohio and I'm not a trigger warning for anyone who's listening, but just the other day in Ohio, the father who hunted his four, six and eight year old, I'll say it. We have a group text between about four of us and we were talking or police officers how we would have dealt with that arriving. I think, the professionalism of the two officers, if you haven't seen it. Professionalism of the two officers when you know that black box sitting there that the public can't see are those three dead children and the father's just sitting there and hearing the details. Okay, great.
Speaker 3:Well, what happens from there? Those officers already took the father into custody and saw those children. Who comes next? Well, they don't mysteriously disappear, the bodies, they don't get moved right away. No, the fire department's coming, the paramedics are coming, everyone's seeing this happen. And the reason I bring this up is you don't run into your house and say, well, guess what this happened? Blah, blah, blah in detail, but do explain. Hey, listen, I was on this call today and the father? However, you can explain it, whatever the threshold limit of your significant other is and, like I said, brian's light years ahead of me with saying things. But you don't have to and correct me if I'm wrong, brian you don't have to go into too much detail, but give the basis of what you dealt with that day.
Speaker 4:So we had a code I would text her to check on the kids and she would have to let me know that each of them were breathing and alive and snoring, sleeping, whatever they were doing. I would just get the oh no text back, okay, and then five minutes later, they're all good and I would know. And what she was doing is she was Googling. Stotans were in the news a lot, so she would Google and say anything with framing it. You guys are in the news a lot, so they'll Google and they'll see what you go into. But I don't give details. I just say check on the kids and she'll know. And you're going to group? Yeah, want to group.
Speaker 3:we're talking and we're good, so and that's another thing you brought up group. I can't throw a shameless plug out there, but I have a friend that works for a hospital that does first responder groups and also for veterans and we tried to hook someone up and I it was like it's a balance. The person did would benefit and understood they would benefit from a group, but then, oh, it's three days a week, jay, I can't do three days a week. I can do all patient once a week maybe, and that's something that always got me. It's like what would happen if I was in that position, if I definitely needed to go. Do I make time? I was talking to my spouse enough? Do I need to go three days a week? So when also I'm just thinking of this when you bring up groups as someone who's been to a brand, what's your thought process? When someone I try and point someone towards a thing that's nine to one three days a week, but then I get the Jay or whatever I can't do a three days. What's your thoughts on that?
Speaker 4:So and I tell people again, I'm a little bit more depending on who they are, I'm a little bit more blunt and so you're going to lose your wife, you're going to lose your kids. Most likely You're going to lose your career. If I send you away for 30 days to a place down in Florida I believe you know Sunny as well, right? So if I send you down to Sunny for 30 days, it's 30 days of your career, which is your Academy with six months you're in services a week. It's not a lot of time at the end of the day, when it looks at it. So if you don't go, you're going to want to pay in child support, alimony, whatever else.
Speaker 4:In Massachusetts they're not very kind to you. Your career is going to be over. And then what? How do you go from a cop making 150 to 200 grand a year with details and masks which is very lucrative for those that to making what? 60 grand? What? Doing what? Like campus security somewhere, like I don't? Where do you go from that?
Speaker 4:So I think when you look at 30 days as opposed to the rest of your life, it's a big, it's something that people have to look at and that's one thing I try to explain to people. You are literally going to lose everything and what saved me is that I just I do myself in the mercy of people, planes and say whatever's going to happen, it's going to happen, but I'm not. I'm not just going to, not fight for my life, you know what I mean. So and there's people who have just up and left, fight upon, just never showed up again. They're in other states doing methadone and living homeless. Last year wife, kids will never talk to them again for a drug that can kill us. About you, these are some of the things we have to correct sooner rather than later.
Speaker 2:So blunt works yes.
Speaker 4:I mean, I think you need to read the room. I think you need to read your audience and know some of you who I don't know I've had to tiptoe around and there's other people on like it's just going to fly and I've had screaming masses of people but I knew I could have that with them. There's other people who I've just had to kind of tiptoe around, but I think once I get my clutches on people and I kind of know, and I get a read for them, I kind of know where to go and I'm not afraid to throw out. You're going to lose everything. You're marriage will end. You'll lose your career. Well, stop planning another career. I don't know what to tell you, but it's going to go away if you could terminate. So what's your choice? If you don't like what I'm saying, then stop what you're doing. I don't know what else to tell you, but you're going to lose it all over Things that are very correctable.
Speaker 2:You know I said blunt and I wanted to take it back right away, because I think what you're talking about is honesty, and I think that for me, when I do as a counselor, when people come in I always say like, if you don't want a non-ist therapist, that's fine, I can be as you, all you want. I can ask you about your feelings and say how's everything going today. Or I can be the guy who goes and tells you like look, you got to work on this, you got to set some proper boundaries with everyone else, you got to start talking to other people. Because you know what. I've been around you, guys, but I don't know everything and I will never claim I know everything. But use your resources, use your. You know.
Speaker 2:You talked about going fishing or going hiking or going whatever I mean. The other thing that I tell guys is that you know like, okay, come to me, come to someone at your department, but at the end of the day, what are you doing to take care of you? Because that's the other part too. That ends careers pretty easily, because if you're all consumed by fire or police and correct me if I'm wrong, guys your life then becomes nothing, especially when you get close to retirement or if you're so consumed that you don't have enough outside life that it eats you alive, and I don't know if that plays a factor too. But I just want to throw that out too, because I really feel guys forget about that stuff.
Speaker 3:And Brian, I'm sure we'll echo this because I'm sure it's the same in the fire service, because I'm just sure it is. But if I make it to 55 years old, trust me, I got the clock counting die of eight years. Seven months left, five years. After that, no one's going to give. First of all, no one's going to know who I am. All right, I live my entire life being a police officer, which I love, and I did it for years, living just. I'm a cop, I'm a cop, I'm a cop. I call my previous department now and I, hey, what's going on? Stray ball for MPD. Who's this? I've been gone 10 years. There's a handful of people up there. I don't exist.
Speaker 3:If you live your life to be a police officer rude awakening to some of the younger guys, because I know some of the older guys I hope the older guys understand this the day you leave, the day you retire, people remember you. They'll tell funny stories about you, but as like our department, 60%, I want to say around five years or less, once that goes, there's people's names we bring up jokingly and some of the older guys will bring up them the guys that retired and the stairs. Oh, he sounds like a funny guy. Guess what If you live your life as a police officer, entire career, and that's all you have. Once you leave, people aren't going to remember you. You're going to show up for that police memorial Sunday and people are like who's that guy? Oh, that's J Bal. Who's J Bal here? Oh, j Bal is here. From such and such and such. Oh, okay, whatever man, have something outside policing Fire and Brian Crabtree, if I'm wrong, you're saying fire service.
Speaker 4:I got two years left and it's one thing to have pride in what you do, but to live it, to make it your whole life. I'm a husband, I'm a father. You know I do other things. You know what I mean. I don't want to be just known. I don't want to walk out the door and then die six months later.
Speaker 4:You hear these cops who work 16 hours a day, seven days a week. They've got a million dollars in the bank, big fancy trucks in the big fancy house that they never get to use, they never get to see, they never travel, because details can be detailed. You know I don't live an extravagant life, but I'll tell you what. I'm pretty relaxed and pretty comfortable in where I am and my PTSD is getting better. The more I travel, the more I do other things. We don't need to live our lives 24 seven or on the job and there's other things to do Fishing, the fish and the fish and the hike and the camping. Do other things for the love of God and his life outside of this.
Speaker 4:And there's so many books on life after badge and all these other options. There's other things to do out there that does not need to consume you. There's a story of a New York City police sergeant who did 40 years in the job. 40 in New York City, like insane, or else Jesus Christ, right, right, like. And yet the day he retired I'm not exactly exaggerating a little bit, but pretty much like the day he was high five and he'd be walking out the door he dropped dead, didn't enjoy a single minute of retirement. And you see, these guys that hang on, they hang on, they hang on. They're 40 years in the job because they have nothing else.
Speaker 4:There has to be something else. You have to take time for yourself and self care and whether it be meditation and yoga and all these other things that people need to be aware of and people need to learn about. And we're slowly but surely spreading the word that there's other options other than therapy, and I got a great meeting coming up with the Department of Public Health representative soon. We've got the event that I'm doing in October that, hopefully, is going to save the world. If you ask me, I'll tell you we're going to save the world. At least that's the goal. I'm going to let people know that there's life outside of the job and there's therapy outside of just sitting there talking to somebody who's uncomfortable that there's other. The meditation, the yoga is saving the world and it doesn't take a lot of time to do it.
Speaker 3:And I want to say something on that my guy from the VA. He's been hitting me over the head with yoga, yoga, and I'm almost embarrassed. Every time I go see him I say no, haven't done it yet. Nope, haven't done it yet, and that's part of my side, my fault. I wish I do it and that's something that I haven't gotten to yet. But I want to say that I believe everything you just said.
Speaker 3:Brian was dead on it, but it's just something, and I'm trying to appeal to the others out there that haven't said oh my God, yoga, I'm not doing freaking yoga. I've had sold to me a million different ways. Hey, jay, 10 o'clock on Sunday, come with me. There's a lot of sightseeing to do and people are trying to sell to me. I just haven't bought in yet and that's personally with me. So I hope that if anyone ever just heard Brian say that and I was like, oh, fucking yoga. Yeah, I was like that and I'm slowly but surely trying to get to it I've actually had conversations with my wife. I need to do this. I just haven't yet and somewhere I need to jump over the fence and say, okay, it's time to do it. But I 100% believe in what you just said. You know the, the, the meditation, the yoga. Everything you just said is is you know, it takes a while. I'm still. I'm still not there, but I'm. I'm invested in exactly what we've been talking about.
Speaker 2:I've had guys when I asked them about what they do outside of work and they look blankly at me. I'm like, go take a class on underwater basket weaving. I don't really give a crap what you do, but you got to get out of your job. And that's not just from for you know, first responders, any job, but I'll speak with first responders. That's that's 80% of my conversation. Sometimes I'm like I'm not sufficient. I can't be the guy you always dump on. And that's not because I I don't think I can handle it, it's the fact that I can't be that thing you need to have, like gardening. You got to have. You know you talked about all these things. Go be active in your community. Go volunteer to yo yo. I mean, I really don't care what people do, but I ultimately that's that. I want to throw that out because I feel like first responders in particular to get in love with the job but they forget that they have a life outside of it.
Speaker 4:I do not spend one minute. I don't watch the news, I don't follow anything. I don't listen to the scanner. The only time I do is just because I'm the union president, so if something big happens, I kind of need to know about it. Other than that, unless something bad is happening with the guys at work or the girls at work, I don't care. I don't care. There's a five alum five in Springfield right now.
Speaker 4:As long as somebody died and we get hurt, I don't care. It's not my problem. I keep my own lane. I got my own problems and that's what allows me to keep my mind fresh and clear, because I do take on a lot of other people's problems, as do you, and we've discussed this before. It's a lot and people get worried about me saying you know you listen to all this other stuff, but I dump my stuff too every now and then and I get it out there and we have to find other things to do, whether than listen to scanners all day and listen to death destruction in Mayhem. I don't care what's happening in the town Next to me unless it involves me or my family. I focus on myself right now. I got to take care of me so I can take care of my family, then continue doing what I'm doing trying to help other people.
Speaker 2:I'll be. As soon as we're done with here, I'll go check on my kids. But I'm going to go play in my garden and I weed it and I take the rocks out and people are like, why do you spend time doing that? Because I just don't need to think. I just I like not thinking. I love not thinking. And for meditation, I can go on and on. I'm just going to say this quickly Meditation is not what most people think. You can meditate by drinking water, by walking, by working on the garden. It doesn't have to be ah-oom. Ah-oom is helpful, Don't get me wrong. But we got to also break those barriers and I think that that's what I'm happy to hear about that in October, that it's happening, Because last time we spoke you were working on it. We didn't really have a date or anything else. So I just was wondering if you have anything on that.
Speaker 4:October 30th is going to be at a hotel on LEMISTER. I will send the official details out. We're going to process signing a contract. We're going to have federal agencies involved, state agencies, pfa, found. I'm going to send out to every police and private department union, to pretty much anybody I can send it out to, and we're going to advertise it.
Speaker 4:Well, we've got a lot of support from some charities, nonprofits, and we're hoping this to be the success that we all grew, the one we're going to enable. We all grew it in days and which was a nice problem to have and we're hoping to get between 200 and 300 people. We're hoping to have 20 to 25 different vendors. I'm going to invite anybody and everybody that wants to attend, and family and spouses are welcome and significant others, whoever your support network is, and we're going to have service dogs there and teach people about what's out there for resources and you can, I'm not going to be in shackles at your facility and these people will be there to say, no, this is, you're not going to do that. This is what we're going to do. And there's going to be people that are going to do massage, do yoga, do meditation, all of these other natural holistic approaches that I'm a huge fan of and three years ago, four years ago, I was not. I would have made fun of you, but now I'm a huge believer of the natural holistic approach as opposed to medication, and I'm hoping that we can take this on the road to be adventurous from other states.
Speaker 4:You know that Kenosha, wisconsin, where they had the riots during the last couple of years, one of the people that's going to be a speaker at my event she was in a firefighter out there and they do not have peer support. They have nothing. If something bad happens, they call in the city, chicago peer support. I mean, that is insane to me. So these people just went out home after the riots yeah, go do whatever, don't bother us, and it's so. We're going to take, hopefully, these conferences on the road and spread the word throughout the other states, so we'll send all that out to everybody and anybody that'll listen to us.
Speaker 2:Well, you know you can count on me and Brian to be there and, as a rate key practitioner. People always laugh, but you need you. Yeah, I, you know I'll tell people. I'll go to my grave saying there's a police officer and a firefighter that both got on my table, freaked out because of how it worked. So I'm like I've done my job in life, I've convinced a few people, but as the hour approaches, I just want to thank you guys again for this time. It's just very, very helpful. I think we need to do this again because I didn't get to have those questions and anything else you want to kind of like talk about. And the last time, brian, you also gave out your email and all that.
Speaker 4:So I will give out my. My phone number is 7747660852. It's on 24 seven. If I don't know you and you text me, just kind of give me a heads up to so I don't just ignore it. And my email is just my name be Harkins H A R K I N S. Two eight one four a Gmail. Any resources I can provide for people, I will certainly do my best.
Speaker 2:I'll put that in the show notes. For sure, brian J. Anything to add?
Speaker 3:No, you can put the info, like you've done before, in the show notes. That's fine and I'm glad. I do want to say it's weird. I do talk a lot and I meet a lot of people and people say that, but someone like Brian alluded to someone that I've known from my previous department reached out to me one day. I had no idea what I was doing because we lost touch over 1011 years and then hooked me up with Brian and it's been a pleasure to know when, brian so it's pretty cool how those things happen you lose touch with someone for 1011 years that you've worked with as a close town and then they say, well, geez, you should talk to this guy. And there's Brian. So I think it.
Speaker 4:Yeah, we are.
Speaker 2:I want to thank both of you. I definitely want to have you back on number one, but number two just personally. Thank you because I always feel privileged being in these conversations. I particularly like the last half hour where you guys were talking. I was just like putting in a few words and you guys were talking because to me I don't think what you say lightly and I truly appreciate it. Thanks, Thank you very much.
Speaker 2:Thanks, guys. Well, this concludes episode 114. J Bal, brian Harkins, looking forward to connecting again. I think we just have great interviews. I have a few ideas of other stuff that we can talk about, because we're never done talking about first responders. As you can tell, this podcast has also committed to talking about first responders and their experience on a regular basis, but episode 115 is going to be an episode where I'm going to give you a kind of like where I'm at in regards to the flight that happened in March 2023. This is, you know, as I will record this. It will be July, so it will probably be six months removed, so you can know where my mindset is. I know this is going to be released somewhere in August, but I figured you'd enjoy hearing about that and I hope you join me then. This number is available in the United States.
