Resilience Development in Action
Discover practical resilience strategies that transform lives. Join Steve Bisson, licensed mental health counselor, as he guides first responders, leaders, and trauma survivors through actionable insights for mental wellness and professional growth.
Each week, dive deep into real conversations about grief processing, trauma recovery, and leadership development. Whether you're a first responder facing daily challenges, a leader navigating high-pressure situations, or someone on their healing journey, this podcast delivers the tools and strategies you need to build lasting resilience.
With over 20 years of mental health counseling experience, Steve brings authentic, professional expertise to every episode, making complex mental health concepts accessible and applicable to real-world situations.
Featured topics include:
• Practical resilience building strategies
• First responder mental wellness
• Trauma recovery and healing
• Leadership development
• Grief processing
• Professional growth
• Mental health insights
• Help you on your healing journey
Each week, join our community towards better mental health and turn your challenges into opportunities for growth with Resilience Development in Action.
Resilience Development in Action
E.118 The Crucial Role of Therapy in Personal Evolution and Healing
What if understanding the unspoken language of therapy could revolutionize your healing process? In this reverse episode, your guides, Lisa Mustard, from the podcast "The Therapy Show" , and I take you on a fascinating journey through the world of therapy. Our candid conversations aim to demystify the intricacies of therapy, from recognizing your gut instinct when choosing a therapist to the potent impact of unconditional positive regard in a therapeutic relationship. We dissect how discomfort can be an essential part of growth and how shame can facilitate vital dialogues with your therapist.
Therapy is not a one-size-fits-all process, and we delve into the importance of a therapist who can tailor their approach to your unique needs. We'll also debunk the myth of quick fixes and emphasize the value of consistent, patient work in therapy. Together, we explore the transformational power of the therapeutic relationship and the profound personal growth that can come from being truly seen and heard by a therapist. We also discuss the intriguing dynamic of therapist-client relationships and how they can offer mutual benefit.
As an added bonus, we talk about the importance of surrounding yourself with good friendships and nurturing therapeutic relationships for personal growth. We also explore the Atomic Habits approach of tracking accomplishments, providing you with actionable insights to apply in your own life. We'll also introduce you to a 30-day journal, Empower Your Mind, designed to guide you on your journey to mental clarity. Finally, I share some exciting news about an upcoming documentary on first responders in crisis situations, shedding light on their crucial role. Join us for this transformative episode, as we illuminate the path to emotional healing and personal growth. You won't want to miss it!
Hi and welcome to Finding your Way Through Therapy. The goal of this podcast is to demystify therapy, what can happen in therapy and the wide array of conversations you can have in and about therapy Through personal experiences. Guests will talk about therapy, their experiences with it and how psychology and therapy are present in many places in their lives, with lots of authenticity and a touch of humor. Here is your host, steve Bisson.
Speaker 2:Merci, thank you and welcome to Episode 118, or the premier episode of Season 10. I'm so happy to be here. Yes, I will break a little barrier for you. So I am on Season 10 because I've done quarterly seasons. I call it the Survivors episodes, so to speak, just like Survivor did to get to many, many seasons on their TV show. But starting in 2024, I should say I will be doing a full season, the full year. So this is where you're going to see the last Season 10. This will be at the end of the year. We'll complete it and then Season 11 will be starting.
Speaker 2:A couple of new things for Season 10. We're going to start off with a few new concepts. One of the concepts that I'm going to do is I'm going to have someone who will be hosting last hosting. I will be there for her. You've heard her before on the show. Her name is Courtney Romanowski. She's been on about three times and she wants to be hosting one episode a season and since the seasons are going to go to yearly, we'll probably say quarterly or whatever comes around. But she will be very much doing it on her own starting next year, 2024.
Speaker 2:But this year we're going to figure out which episode. We haven't quite figured out one out yet, but before the end of the year I'm going to have, I'm going to co-host and then eventually I'm going to have a guest host for finding your way through therapy. I will also be working with a new editor. I'm so happy to be working with her. She was recommended by Lisa Mustard, which is going to become important about two and a half seconds.
Speaker 2:But yes, lisa Mustard had recommended Chelsea and I've decided to change editor in nothing that. I really enjoyed my work with Laura and I truly appreciate everything she did, but I wanted to try with a new editor for my own reasons and wanted to see how that goes. So welcome Chelsea to the team as my editor of my episodes. And then Lisa Mustard comes in, importantly because here's another concept we're going to do. I'm going to do a reverse episode, and what I mean by that is I was on Lisa Mustard's episode a few weeks ago so we thought let's do a reverse episode. So you're going to hear this for episode 118. My guess, because I was a guest on hers and it's literally the same episode, but please go listen to it on her podcast, the Therapy Show. But here is Lisa Mustard and I's conversation.
Speaker 3:Welcome back to the podcast, Steve Bison. It is just great to have you. Thanks for joining me today.
Speaker 2:Always a pleasure, always enjoy talking to you, lisa.
Speaker 3:Well, thanks. Well, tell everybody what you've been up to the past couple of months.
Speaker 2:My God, what have I not been up to? Yeah, you're my podcast Finding your Way Through Therapy on the Cycraf Network. Just like you, I really enjoy still doing the podcast, so that's a good thing Still seeing clients in my private practice and enjoying that I just started. Never would I have a friend of mine go group practice and our aim is a little different. We're going to make sure that it has a great space for clients but, more importantly, we really want to give space for staff to be happy and healthy in the work environment we create, and I think that's something that has not been really examined by anyone. So you know, gambit counseling will be aiming for that and making sure staff is as happy as we can make them, because it's a stressful job and I think we forget about that part.
Speaker 3:That's really cool. I love that idea and that concept. So what's the name of the group going to be? Gambit counseling, okay.
Speaker 2:Just like they. You know Chaston Gambit and people say, oh, if they don't like, someone said, oh, someone might not get it. Like, if they don't get it, that's fine, they're not going. Well, I'm not going with that. I don't understand that. They're like no, they have openings and they have a good message.
Speaker 3:So yeah, so it's going to be in person.
Speaker 2:No, all virtual.
Speaker 3:Oh, very cool.
Speaker 2:Completely virtual. Okay, we figured also that would be something that, on long term, we're able to translate to other things, and including coaching, because counseling is not just counseling, it's also coaching, because at one point you do better, so maybe you need more coaching. So that's something I've been working on with my colleague of mine, bill Dwinnell. So we're working on that and I created a journal.
Speaker 3:Sweet, let's see it.
Speaker 2:A journal, let's show it to everybody, because if you're listening.
Speaker 3:You know you can go watch us over on YouTube. So there you are, Okay, Empower your mind. The 30 day journey to mental clarity. I like it, that's nice.
Speaker 2:So one of the one of the things about good therapy is to also be able to do things outside of therapy. Mm, hmm, one of my biggest concerns for my clients is how do I start journaling?
Speaker 1:Mm, hmm.
Speaker 2:And what this is is a 30 day journal to. There's different prompts. There's not 30 prompts, there's about 26. I repeat one there's a reason for that and it's a prompt with a follow up question and hopefully, after 30 days, not only have you gained mental clarity, but you're also able to say wow, I can continue that on my own afterwards, or you can buy 14 of these journals and use it for that. I mean, I'm fine with that either way.
Speaker 3:Right.
Speaker 2:But it's just to help people, because journaling is people see it as such a very mysterious thing. Yeah, and ultimately I just want to demystify as much as I can, and it's good therapy outside of therapy to do so that's why I did that.
Speaker 3:I like that, and so where can we find your journal?
Speaker 2:Right now is on Amazon, and singularly on Amazon, because I haven't explored anything. It was just an idea I had and it blossomed very quickly. When the things that I told myself, like do I have to read it and all that, and I'm like no good music sometimes, are the ones who said oh, I wrote in 15 minutes, there you go I didn't quite write it in 15 minutes, but nonetheless it was a quick idea. I came up with the idea and I'm hoping that it takes off.
Speaker 3:So nice, so we'll put the link in the show notes if you guys want to go and check out the journal, because Amazon you just got to add to cart and have it sent. I like it Very cool.
Speaker 2:I mean very hopefully people will enjoy it and learn how to journal, because that's I think that part of my journey into mental health as a therapist and as a client is to journal and talk about my thoughts. Because I think it's not. I spend my. This morning is interesting. I'm my therapist at 10 and he's like oh so you've been working outside of here. I'm like you're damn right, I have, because therapy is not just the 50 minutes that I have with you, so that's good therapy too.
Speaker 3:So oh, yeah, I love that I'm, because I, you know, over the years I've been to therapy, I've been to life coaches and it's what you discover in that, the 50 minute session, that it's not just like thinking, you know, we can't just. Somebody just said recently like I think it was my interview, I think it was Auburn, why said you know, we can't just think our way and therapy, we have to actually get out and like do the do and take action. Because that's where I believe real change happens is through having an experience and always being kind of like self aware and introspective about like, what was that experience? Just like, what did I think, what did I feel? What do I, what did I take away from it? What stunted me, what was an obstacle? You know it's like always processing, but yeah, that 50 minutes that you spend with your therapist to me is like a discovery, a discovery time, you know, where you kind of kick around some ideas.
Speaker 3:Your therapist is curious about you. Through collaborative work you come up with what might be going on. So, yeah, and I know we wanted to talk about, like, what is or what makes good therapy, but I also just like catching up with you and, you know chatting with you. You are definitely, I know, have helped me open up more as a podcaster and share more of my story and be a little bit more vulnerable and authentic. So I have to give you major props for kind of spurring me into taking risks on the podcast and trying and doing new things. So thank you, sir, for being that inspiration. I appreciate it.
Speaker 2:And you're welcome and anytime, and I think that that's what real growth comes from through you talk about good therapy. We do great talks, what I love. I listen to your podcast. You know that, and I've listened for you for a while. You inspired me to go into podcasting, and so we were a mutual admiration society here Exactly, but I think, I think it's the same thing, like you will hear something on Lisa's podcast and or my podcast or whatever the matter to me.
Speaker 2:But don't just say, oh, that was good and then move on, use it. Go, go get Lisa's stuff that she has. I have a book that. I have also a journal. Use those resources. And even if you decide that you know, maybe it's someone else, that's fine too. But growth, good therapy comes from like I don't sit there and say let's promote Steve's book or Lisa's podcast. I'm like wow, this person really could benefit from Debbie Ford's writings or whatever. It doesn't matter to me. But good therapy is not just strictly that 50 minutes, but it's also what you do outside of, whether it's podcasting, whether it's reading a book. I mean it's important to continue to explore. You got to be critical of ourselves outside of that 50 minutes of therapy.
Speaker 3:Definitely yeah, and it's one of those things that you have to. You have to live it. You know you can't just talk about it or think about it. But yeah, I was thinking and when I first reached out and said, hey, would you want to come back on the show? I really want to talk about what is good therapy? A few months back I did one on like what is it or what makes a good therapist. But kind of thinking back to that episode, it's like, well, how do you find a good therapist is one thing, but then how do you know if it's a good therapy? How do you know if what you're receiving and getting is like good? Do you have a way to kind of frame that?
Speaker 2:One of the things that I check in with my clients on the first session, maybe a month in, is this still working for you? So you talk about a good therapist. Let's talk about good therapy. A good therapy is that you're still getting something after a month or four sessions, depending. If you're not going in every week, that's fine. But being able to say what are you, what are you getting out of this? Oh, you know what.
Speaker 2:I really have worked on my thought process. Or you know I've changed my behaviors, or I'm thinking about addiction in a different light, or I don't want to put the stuff on my spouse or what have you. So you're like okay, so there's growth. So I think that good therapy brings that growth. I mean, it doesn't have to be immediate and everything changes, but thinking about it outside of therapy is usually a good therapy thing to do. That would be the first indication for me, because if you come to see me for three months and you go, I haven't put one thing in play. I don't think you're right, I think you're wrong, and that's very bad therapy.
Speaker 2:And you know therapists are not everyone's cup of tea. I tell you that I, as you know, I work with first responders and medical staff, primarily, and the reason, what I always like to hear from my firefighters, my police officers, my nurses and my doctors. They say, steve, you're just real, you're just you. So I really respond to that and I said, yes, that's called the therapeutic relationship and for me, that's the other part about good therapy is that it's not that Lisa is better than me or I'm better than Lisa. I'm no better than any therapist out there, frankly. At the same time, I also have a better relationship with first responders, perhaps, maybe medical staff. Why? Because of the therapeutic relationship. I'm not. As one firefighter put it one day, you don't look like a therapist and I'm like, oh, so that's what makes it easier for you than, hey, let's run with that.
Speaker 2:But I think, that's part of therapeutic relationship and I think that's a big part of good therapy.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I agree, I think that is really important, as that relationship and I mean there's definitely I've had clients where we were not good fits, you know, and I'm not. You know, thinking over the years, it's like I think you would probably respond better to a male therapist, you know, just based on kind of like how it's going so far, and then vice versa, like I've had male therapists refer me. You know women 35 plus, you know, as clients. So I think it's it's you know it's all about how are you connecting with the therapist? Also to you know, I know we're speaking from like the therapist perspective on what makes good therapy. But what do you think from the client's perspective?
Speaker 3:Like you know, a lot of people are scared to come, they're worried, they're fearful about being judged. You know I've been doing this for so long that I've kind of forget that like those people out there have those thoughts and those feelings. Like I forget that some people are really nervous about coming because it's like it's the world that I work in and that I live in and I'm always like talking about it. I feel like it was, you know, friends or family, just kind of like encouraging people to talk about things. So I know that they are out there. You know, have you encountered that recently where you know you've had maybe some clients that it took them years to get to you?
Speaker 2:Every time I have a new client, it feels like it's been years. You know, I think, that what you talk about, the vulnerability in therapy I think that's the part that I also explain. Like you know, one of the lines that I use when I feel like people are not being healthy or they're not getting anything out of this, and I say, okay, do you think this is working? Which is always an important question to ask, and I also say and if it's not working, remember you're not wasting my time, you're wasting yours, which is even more valuable. And I put it on the client because if we always put it on the therapist to call it out, I think that's unfair because the client might have their own feelings.
Speaker 2:No, I just don't want to open to anyone and I realize that, with my trauma, working with a guy is not helpful. I'm a woman, or identify as a woman, so I need to go with, you know, a woman. I feel I'm more comfortable with perfect. Let's do that. Why didn't she tell me I was scared that I was doing it wrong, when there's no wrong way of doing therapy, there's just, you know, being able to read your own cues and you know I talk about body stuff, like if you come into a session you're anxious probably something you need to pay attention to. So that's.
Speaker 2:The other thing too is if you're coming in I have a friend of mine who went in therapy for the first time and you know I just had a bad feeling with this person and say that and then go find another therapist there's, even though there's a shortage, and we all know that there's a shortage of therapists. Trust your gut as a client and being uncomfortable is not necessarily a sign of not good therapy. Because I'm uncomfortable with my therapist I can tell you that much and I love my therapist, but it's being uncomfortable and not wanting to talk about stuff. Now that's something you need to be very mindful as a client, that maybe that's not good therapy for you and be mindful of that. So I don't know if that answers your question.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah, and I think it's, you know, of course, like it's so nuanced and it's like a case by case situation, because being uncomfortable doesn't necessarily mean it's not the right fit. It just means like what's going on in that moment that you're uncomfortable. So it's being aware and like kind of checking in with yourself.
Speaker 3:But for some people, yeah, if it's like they're uncomfortable, it's too much, they get flooded, they're out like they've tried. You know, I, you know it always comes down to like a case by case and it's always everybody's got a unique experience, everybody's unique to the process. Yeah, so I agree with you for sure, that's an interesting way of explaining like being comfortable or uncomfortable, you know.
Speaker 2:Being able to have that conversation about shame. I think that for me, shame is probably one of the most powerful emotions that most people have. And are you not talking about it because of shame, because it's hard for you to talk about, or is it because you don't want to talk to me about it? And sometimes that's important to kind of put it out there, because, again, this is not about you know, I have clients who send me memes all the time about I won therapy. You're never going to win therapy, you never. You just never win. But if you feel comfortable enough, that's great because that shame may bring you to a different place in your mind. But if that shame keeps you stuck, then be mindful of that. That's okay. You know, we're all have.
Speaker 2:If you don't have an embarrassing moment in your life, a I want to meet you. I don't know who you are, but please I want to meet you. But number two talk about it. And if it's not, if it's something too difficult to talk about because you're not comfortable with that person in front of you, then that's a good sign of bad therapy, so to speak. Not a bad therapist, not a bad client. Bad therapy, that means the therapeutic alliance is not there. And the other thing that I wanted to also mention is that I've been in therapy for many years now, so I don't care like my new therapist. He's been with me now a year and a half. He went bang right into it, but I'm used to therapy, so I knew what he was doing. So I'm like go for it, not as a not a therapist, but as a client. I knew what he was doing, so I'm like okay, let's go.
Speaker 2:But, if a therapist you feel is too brunt, too hard or it's not comfortable again, that's not maybe a sign of a bad therapist or probably bad therapy for you. And I think that when you talk about good therapy, it's also good to pay attention to bad therapy and see what that means to you.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and it's you know. It just reminded me of when you said something I don't exactly what it was but having that conversation with the therapist about. You know, I think so many people are just so used to ghosting or like not giving feedback or for whatever reason, they just don't want to get into it. I mean, there's certain things like I don't have the energy or the patience or the time to get into certain things that maybe bother me, but I'm like okay, but I understand why I choose not to engage in that. But when it comes to that, the idea of going to somebody and like wanting to get help on, you know, your emotional health, and it's it's you don't like it or you feel uncomfortable it's important to have that conversation with that therapist because that's part of the issue, that's part of the problem. The problem is not the problem, right?
Speaker 3:Do you remember doing that in grad school, like the problem is the thinking or the problem is the behavior, or the problem is the thinking or the problem. You know, so it's.
Speaker 2:Or the past or the problem is the process right. Right.
Speaker 3:Have you ever have that one? Yeah, actually, there's so much to mental health and to therapy and it's fascinating when I think about like this work in this field and you know just just where we are today and it's just like you said, there's a shortage of therapists. I mean, where I sit, where I am in South Carolina, I feel like everybody on a corner is a therapist. I feel like there's so many therapists and I don't. I guess maybe it's because of there's a university here that has like three different, four different programs. There's always like an intern that's looking to take somebody on. There's always like the counseling center, free services to the community.
Speaker 3:Mental health is really big, but I haven't, honestly, personally haven't tried to get a therapist recently, so I don't know what that process is like right now. Like if I wanted to use my health insurance and I was looking for a therapist and I was kind of going through the directory. You know I'm I'm probably more apt to like talk to a friend first and say who do you know that specializes in this right? But not everybody has a pool of therapist friends that they can, they can turn to you. So how do you suggest that somebody who's out there, looking, make a decision Like how do you how it seems so simple Go to psychology today, type in your zip code, type in your insurance.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 3:And then start filtering through. But is it ever that easy? I don't know, is it?
Speaker 2:Well, let's get back to maybe the basics of therapy. To give an idea, what I went in for therapy originally is not even close to the stuff that I'm talking about today.
Speaker 3:Right.
Speaker 2:So sometimes what we do is we think we know what we need. One of the my biggest pet peeves is that, oh, you need CBT. Call Stevie does CBT. What kind of behavioral therapy is great, but it may not be what the person is. Person comes in and says I know what I told my doctor. But really it's because when I had this trauma and I don't want to trigger anyone, I want to just keep it vague here for purposes of a podcast oh well, you know what. I'm truly not equipped for that. That's not my specialty, but Lisa can do so.
Speaker 2:When you look for a therapist, think about you know. You can think about what the problem is and maybe try to identify that. But remember that you also might go in therapy and you may want to address your relationship where your blank parent from the past. But ultimately, if you're not able to manage your life right now, you don't need a psychoanalytic therapist, but rather some more of a here and now, dbt, cbt, stuff like that to get you going right now and then maybe you get a psychoanalytic therapist Right. Ultimately it's feeling you know, go to psychology today. I mean, you know, I know, we, I don't know about you and we've had this private conversation about put it out there I get at least once or twice a week. Hey, Steve, do you know what? Therapist for blankety blank.
Speaker 1:Mm, hmm.
Speaker 2:Well, I can tell you who has openings. I can tell you, you know, or you can look at psychology today and figure it out, because not everyone's a cup of tea. Sometimes it's also going with your gut instinct in regards to that Right and not realize, like the. You know, there's so many people out there that have different styles, different ways. I'm a person who is, you know, hard on my sleeve, just going to say what I'm going to say and that's not everyone's cup of tea and that's fine, but that's not written on my bio. I'm the hardest because that's not going to sell so much, but you know it's being able to identify maybe one, two or three therapists and then look for them and see what you feel is like. Even having that 50 minute consult I don't know if that's common down there, but a lot of my therapist friends, including myself, I'll be like, hey, let's talk for 10 minutes, see where we're going Right. And sometimes, like I've had someone come in and say, oh, I want to work on my relationship with my, my partner, turns out well.
Speaker 2:There's historically a lot of trauma and physical violence in relationships and it was with, you know, a woman. They feel comfortable talking to a man, because that's not helpful to talk to a woman. I'm like, okay, that's a good fit, that's great. But maybe if you've had violence with a man and I'm a man who has a goatee and a shaved head and I know preconceived notions or preconceived notions, but hey, it is what it is right, we can pretend it don't exist, but they do, and so, oh yeah, my ex had a shaved head. Maybe I'm not your guy, maybe something else, but call, especially the ones who say at free 15 minute consult. Those are the best ones to talk to because they may be able to identify what you need or they may be able to say I'm not, this is a great fit or it's not a great fit.
Speaker 2:So I think that part of me is not only going to psychology today but finding people who are willing to consult. Because if I just say, come into my office I mean, you know, for my firefighters, my police officers, my medical staff at EMTs, paramedics I usually come from a reference referral from, like, someone else, from you know, the IAFF or whatever. So they kind of I come in with vested knowledge, right, and sometimes if you're just looking for a therapist and you're not coming from a referral source like that, find the ones with a 15 minute consult with them, because they may not be what you know. It says here that I'm very specialized in psychoanalytic theory and you say, okay, well, I'd like to do a little bit of shadow work, and they look at you, go, I don't know what that is. Well then, that's not your therapist. I mean, I know shadow work, but to say that I'm a specialist, in shadow work.
Speaker 2:I'm not a shadow work guy, so I think it's important to maybe look at who offers a free consult and talk to them, Don't you know? It's not a. The good news is that, especially if you're saying down there, there's a lot of openings for different people who are available.
Speaker 2:Then you know, as they say in business, don't take your first offer, right? You know, go and explore what's going to be best for you, because I don't know what's best for you and I'm pretty trained in that. Lisa doesn't know what's best for you and she's pretty trained in that you will know what's best for you. And that's important to kind of like explore that with a therapist prior to engaging in, you know, in a, you know a session or six sessions or six months or 12 weeks or whatever you want to call it. It'll matter to me, but just being able to engage is important to get that 15 million consult. So maybe that's a good way to look at it.
Speaker 3:Yeah, no, that's good advice. I like that. That's probably, I mean, if I was if I was, you know, going to get back into it right now that's what I would want to do If I didn't have a personal recommendation from somebody. Yeah, I like that. I think that's really good and I think back over the years to the different therapists that I've had and like how different they all were and how unique and the different skills that they bring to the sessions. It's really really fascinating. You know, like to think about it, and you know who jives well with me or who I jive well with is.
Speaker 3:It's really it's pretty fascinating that this is like a job. You know, like we sit and we talk with people and we listen. You know, like people ask me all the time like, what do you do? I listen really hard, I just listen. You know, I just I listen, I listen, I listen and I'm listening for new. You know I'm kind of like listening, for I don't know how to even describe it, but like whatever they come in with and they want to, you know, kick around and they'll start to kind of share and I hear like, oh, I just heard. You know, you just mentioned that event that happened with your partner. How did that you know? How did you feel after you had that conversation?
Speaker 3:I think people like think it's such a mystery what we do, but it's just kind of asking questions, it's kind of kicking ideas around, it's probing for more information, it's, you know, asking about. I mean, really, I'm a systems person, a family systems person, so I'm usually going to ask a lot about you know how they grew up and family of origin, and you know what was it like, what would your father say, what would your mother say, like if your dad was here? You know, like that kind of stuff. And then we would explore, like you know, the stuff that came out of that. But yeah, it's just different, different orientations, different models, different ways of doing it.
Speaker 3:But at the end of the day, it's about that relationship that you have and that's where the new, the because we say, if you know, going to therapy, the process, or the new experience is the way through. You're doing that with a new, like a person sitting in front of you. That is what therapy is. It's having that experience with a person who listens to you, who doesn't judge you, who says your, you know your thoughts and feelings and actions are valid. And you know what is it? Unconditional positive regard, right.
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 3:So it's like that's what therapy is. It's having that experience with somebody and sitting with them and having all those things happen. And you're holding up a mirror to your client and you're saying this is this is what I see going on. You know, I know it's sometimes it's like really hard to put into words what we do, and then sometimes it's like, oh, it's, it's easy.
Speaker 2:Well, you know it's something that I sometimes realize is that there's times where for some clients maybe newer clients I'll kind of rehearse what I'm going to say next to them. And then there's clients that I've known for five, six years. We don't see each other like every week, but none of them for a long time. I blurred it out.
Speaker 3:Yeah, right, yeah.
Speaker 2:And it's circumstantial too, like if someone's going through a hard time with their relationship with their mom, for example. Maybe me blurting out when they have an impulsive mom is probably not very well caught thought. So, as much as sometimes it's hard to put in words what we do, it's also hard to say what we do all the time, because if I've had a problem with a woman named Lisa and then I'm talking to you as my therapist and you say something oh, you're against me, yeah, and I'm going to start reacting to that, you got to be careful. Like oh, you know, I know you've had a lot of hard relationships with women named Lisa. I haven't for the record for anyone who's listening, it's not at all true for me. I just giving an example.
Speaker 3:Right, I got you.
Speaker 2:But you know, like I know, it's hard to hear that from a woman called Lisa, but can I give you some honest feedback? And then just changing that wording makes it so much more palpable. The hardest part of our job is to explain that we need to react to the situation sometimes versus everything else.
Speaker 2:I rarely have. I have verbal diarrhea, apparently here but on podcasts. But in therapy I'm usually a guy who'll wait for the questions. And today I went on for like 10, 15 minutes and at one point my therapist says, okay, stop, before we plan your next 20 years of your life, how about we talk about a little bit of the crap you just gave me? And I'm like, oh, okay, yeah, that's, you need to stop me there. And you stopped me suddenly. And it was helpful and I'm not a I like to talk therapy. So what he does with me is body scans. And I'm like, oh, I'm a freaking body scan, but guess what I freaking work? Yeah, so it's important to like realize that our job. I wish it would be easy enough to just listen, yeah, but, as I remind people, is that it's just like physical health.
Speaker 2:Another has what I don't even know how many types of treatment I am. Heart disease has that many treatments. Diabetes has a lot of treatment in therapy, for good therapy is to realize that there are different approaches and when you do a family system versus a psychoanalytic versus a CBT versus a behavioralist or people who do the, you know the, the second, the, the medication, and it's all good, but I I as my client sometimes go like do you think I should be taking like MDMA? I'm like, okay, no, well, it helped that person. Well, mdma and historically is for people who have done all the treatments You're responding well to this. So you want to solve quick. Therapy, unfortunately does not solve quick. And if someone says to me, well, medical does, I'm like, oh yeah, cause the first diabetes shot solves your pancreas right away. Oh, wait a minute, it doesn't, it takes a long time. So it's the same thing with us.
Speaker 3:Right, yeah, that's a good point. You know, I think that's something that a lot of maybe even like in the work that I do now, there's a lot of I need to get. I need to get fixed really quick. You know, and I don't I need to do this because I want to do this and you need to tell me, you need to sign this and say that I'm okay, I'm like whoa, whoa, and how long did it take for you to get here, for all these symptoms were kind of like part of your life, and now you want a quick fix. I think that's a kind of a I don't know if that's the myth of what we do in counseling, but it's that, I think, frustrates me a lot. But that's probably just kind of like where I am and in the work that I do.
Speaker 2:But I would argue with the work you do with. You know nutrition and exercise. You know what I want to lose a hundred pounds in two weeks? Let no, that's just not possible. Well, I'm gonna go get lipo. That doesn't solve your thought process, that doesn't solve your eating habits. That doesn't solve anything. They don't do that anymore. They don't just give you that. You need to work through it and there's no treatment that I know that takes only 30 days.
Speaker 2:As I promote my book that says 30 days journey to mental clarity. Now, this is to start you off so that you can continue your mental clarity. I didn't offer a solution. I think that unfortunately, we have this quick fix solution, society and, yes, we can blame America, but I look at you Canada, I look at you Europe and I look at you Australia, japan. We want things to be resolved right away and it just doesn't work that way. I don't know about you, lisa, but if this book literally saved your life in 30 days, I would give it away. Here you go, everyone, have one. Sure, I'll be fine, I'll figure out something, I'll go do something else. There's just not one book. I joke around with my clients who are like I just want to be fixed. I'm like, oh, I usually hide this from my clients, but let me look in this drawer. I think I have the fix for you in here, and they all laugh exactly like you just did.
Speaker 2:And they're like oh yeah, I get it.
Speaker 2:And I'm like that's I think the problem is is that people think they want the response right away. I've never fixed a human being in my life, I never will. I haven't even fixed myself and I'm still working on that. So I tell people it's not about being fixed, it's about working through some of the stuff, because maybe your shame today has to do with shame when you first started working, or you were body shame, but now you're like being shame for your thought process or whatever. It's not. I don't know everything about your life. You know everything about your life and you can't figure it out. How do you expect me to figure that out in two seconds?
Speaker 3:Right, yeah, makes sense, makes total sense. Yeah, I know it's just like maybe it's just the environment that I work in, working for the military. It's like they want. Well, they want what they want when they want it.
Speaker 1:And.
Speaker 3:I'm kind of like that's just a frustration I have at times. It's easy for me to put that out there because I can complain about my job or I can see it as OK. Well, if I know that I'm up against that, how do I explain it to them? How do I set up a plan for this person? What does healthy look like for this person? So it's just like I like to kind of. You know, I got to vent about something, steve right.
Speaker 2:Exactly, this is your venting show.
Speaker 3:My podcast, I don't know.
Speaker 2:But no, but I work with the other side of your military because they end up in first responder jobs and stuff like that. And a lot of them come in and like I just need to fix my relationship Right, your relationship of five years that has had some problems. You want me to fix that in 30 days? No, that's just not how that works. People who work in marketing, people who work in banks, whatever, it doesn't matter they want that quick fix. It just doesn't work that way. I don't think it's just your profession. I think the military is a little more pronounced because they, you know and again I'm overgeneralizing, so don't write to Lisa or me about this you know they want 30 days, have a gun in their hand and be able to be shipped out to XYZ to take care of business. And I'd love to say that Lisa is able to do that and I think that she does a fantastic job, or any human being who works in that field will do a fantastic job. I just don't think that that works that way.
Speaker 3:Right.
Speaker 2:So you know.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I hear you. I mean I think that makes sense. I mean it doesn't work like that in anything. I mean, you know, even kind of taking it to when we you knew and I kind of talk about like our podcast and like how it takes time to grow and how it takes time to, you know, get new listeners and get more downloads. It's like you and I both want it overnight, right, because then that's just what we want, but it's like that's not the case. Like we enjoy what we do, we like talking with people where we have curious minds, we love our profession, we love our peers and we want to, you know, give value and you just wash, rinse and repeat that enough times. It is going to. You know it is going to grow or it is going to increase.
Speaker 3:I was listening to a podcast today and it's not talking about therapy, but the lady was saying, like the rule number one is be consistent. Rule number two is be inconsistently consistent, like so if you have an idea or you have something that you want to start and you're going through a season of life where it's just not possible to be as consistent like you and I were talking. You know, summer is just like crazy around here and every summer I forget how crazy it is and I just forget that. You know my schedule is going to be off but I stayed inconsistently consistent as much as possible and it worked for me. You know I'd like to have a better plan for next summer, but hopefully I will.
Speaker 3:I should learn from this right. But it's similar Everything. Nothing happens overnight. Nothing happens overnight. You know. Better relationships don't happen overnight. You don't lose the weight overnight. You don't magically cure your trauma overnight. You know time takes time, takes time, takes time and patience. And you know being willing to look at your stuff and kind of pivot when you need to, I guess, and you know I feel like.
Speaker 3:I'm just not randomly right now.
Speaker 2:But I don't think you are, because I think it's absolutely right. Therapy is consistently inconsistent. I mean consistent. You show up regularly. I tell people who come in weekly I said have 100% of my sessions been helpful to you? All the time. And most people are like and I'm like no, no, you're not going to break my heart, go ahead Now.
Speaker 2:Sometimes I feel like you know you're not, you know you're off or I'm off or whatever, and I'm like OK, great, that's absolutely true. Why can't you be that way outside of your life, at other places, whether it's volleyball, soccer, taking care of the kids, taking care of the house, taking care of whatever? And people are like oh, that makes sense. I'm like look, I'm not perfect, I know. Like I say to people I hit about 80%. I'd say 80% of my sessions are very good. 20% maybe I'm rambling, maybe I got off topic. Yeah, it just happens. And you know insurance companies, who are listening to me right now, understand that that's every human being, so I don't care and my clients all laugh about it. There's days where I've talked about I'm a hockey fan. So police and firefighters in the Northeast of the United States are usually hockey fans and I've had sessions where we talked about hockey and maybe a little bit of the psychology of hockey, and I don't know if we accomplished anything. I said yes, we increased our closeness because whether you don't like the Montreal Canadiens, which is my team, you're a Boston fan. We joked around, we had a good relationship and we can still bring that up in the next session that even though we don't agree, we can work together. And people are like, oh, that's great.
Speaker 2:So even the most random stuff that I talk about with my clients, I always remind them that's part of the therapeutic process and that's good, because I talk about religion and therapy and I practice Buddhism and the principles of Buddhism, and if you tell me about anything, about any type of religion, I am more than willing to talk about it. And people are like, oh, that's not therapy. And I'm like how many people do you talk about your spiritual life or your religion? Oh, I didn't think about it that way. That means there was a lot of vulnerability in this room, which is part of the therapeutic process, and that means our therapeutic relationship is healthy, because you were able to tell me and again, don't write me any letters, I don't believe in God, or I believe in God but he's after me or whatever. I'm just making it up here. But point being is that that's part of the therapeutic relationship, even though it's not therapy.
Speaker 2:And I can talk so much about David Burns and Aaron T Beck and Sigmund Freud and all these great guys that I love, but at one point I don't want to talk to Marshall in a hand. I just don't, I just can't. And lover to that, I just can't. I love Gabor Maté. I love his book on the myth of normal. It's an amazing book and I can't talk about Gabor Maté every single session with people.
Speaker 3:Right, right. No, I totally hear you. Yeah, and I mean it's what people bring to therapy and kind of where the conversation goes, and I loved Gabor. Usually it is a helpful conversation. You know, there are some sessions where you're like you know I've had over the years.
Speaker 3:I've had clients kind of come and go and a lot of times they just want to check in and let me know how their lives are going and I think that's really special, not so much that they have anything that they, you know, really want to work on, but just kind of let me know that this is what I'm doing, this is what was happening. I think about this that you and I talked about years ago, and I think that's a sign of you know, this is a good therapy, this is good therapy, this is a good, a good relationship that has been built here. I don't know, sometimes there are other have been cases for me where it's hard to terminate therapy because I really like the client, you know, and it's like, oh, I wish you weren't my client because I think we could be really great friends.
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 3:You know those types of things too over the years, and I think the longer I've been doing this, the easier it is to say to kind of let that stuff go. But but it is a sign for me that says, hey, I'm missing something in my life. Maybe you know like it's a good, like the one I'm looking for, parallel process. Perhaps you know that I'm needing something more in my life with friends or with acquaintances and I know I'm just kind of like going off of our, our discussion here, but but the therapy is for therapists too.
Speaker 2:I mean honestly, we we know like part of what. Let's break a wall here for a second. Sometimes doing therapy with my clients opens up stuff that I need to address.
Speaker 3:Oh yeah.
Speaker 2:You know and, um, if, if you're offended by dad, by anybody listening to this, sorry, but that's the truth and one of the things that Lisa knows about me and I know, if you listen to my podcast or other stuff, that I said I always will be truthful and I joke around. I had a few clients say that like we could be friends. I mean this is too bad, where I'm like, okay, let's play that scenario out for a second. We go out for dinner and then I start telling you about my problems and they go, oh no, no. And I'm like, exactly, so we're not friends.
Speaker 3:Right, we're friendly.
Speaker 2:We have a paid friendship, if you want to call it that way. But yeah, you don't really. Not that you don't want to hear about my problems, but the relationship is a lot more about you telling me about your stuff rather than me telling you about my stuff.
Speaker 3:Yeah, that is spot on. Yeah, Imagine. Oh, you want to hear. Let me tell you about what's going on my life now.
Speaker 2:Let me tell you about my partner for a second.
Speaker 3:Yeah, did you hear? Oh my gosh, let me tell you about my, my um, my husband, and what he did yesterday. Tell me what you would do. What would you do? Yeah, it's fascinating what we do and it's like I don't know. It's a pretty wild job If you think about it. Pretty, pretty incredible.
Speaker 2:You know, I the, the, the good therapy too is for we talk about good therapy One of the things that I realized in time, and I've realized this for about 15 years. When you talk about, you know where we end up at the end of our lives, whatever that is. You know, a lot of times you know you're like, oh, I'm going to, I'm going to dig into that very sort of thing, and when you come back over and spend time talking about it maybe talking about it in a little bit- more acceptingia or you know something else to that good strategy.
Speaker 2:You know it wasn't sort of giving me. A lot of people, really a lot of people, regret not spending time with family or friends or giving more to charity or whatever. I'll never have that regret and I know that. No matter, even if it wasn't a good match, I was always about that. It's like you learn from them and one of my things that I do with all my clients that I terminate. You talked about good termination and good relationships.
Speaker 2:When I terminate, I tell them, my clients, do you want to go for coffee or you want to go to a restaurant or whatever? It's on me? Obviously it's not therapy, we're just going to talk. And then we go out and I say, okay, this is where I tell you what you taught me in therapy, and most of my clients leave with that high of oh.
Speaker 2:So you did listen and you did learn and I'm like, yeah, I don't know everything. What I know is so little of life and you're teaching me about how difficult it is to have. You know to come out of the closet, for example, or you know the white privilege that I have, or the male privilege that I have, or you know having a debilitating allergy to nuts and what that could do to you and how you've been scared of your life, like that's stuff that you brought me. And people are like, wow, you really do listen and you learn from that. I'm like, yeah, because that's part of good, of therapy too. The therapist who really listens actually gets a lot from the client too, and that would be another way to put it out there. In my opinion, yeah, that's great.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I really like that. Well, this has been a really, you know, different kind of episode that I've, and I'm excited to have had you back on the show. Is there anything else that you want to share with our listeners about what you're doing, or anything?
Speaker 2:I said at the beginning, you know, and truthfully, if people can listen to Lisa, you listen to me on my podcast that's great. But I truly believe that you know what we do is amazing work and what you can get from our podcast is important to take out, not only of your car, but remind yourself of where you can practice that stuff. You know it's. I can't think of any of my guests or your guests, lisa, yet I listen to my guests and yours, but there's always something that I can get and sometimes I'll even write a note when I get into the house about what I heard over Lisa's podcast or if I'm talking to my. I have a book here where what my podcast guests have taught me. Remember that don't take what you heard and go. That was a great. Entertain me for 40 minutes and, with all due respect, we're not the handmade tails. We're not. We're. We actually are hoping you get something out of this. So if you want to look at podcasts, it's not only entertainment but something you can get out of.
Speaker 2:I think Lisa's podcast, my podcast, a lot of the psychcraft network podcasts are exactly that. So bring that somewhere, because Lisa has a lot of great guests. That really brought me to different views and really helped me. So and again, because I want to say one of them I can't think of any, but Lisa knows I write to her all the time about oh, I listened to so and so and I heard this or I missed that or what have you. So, please, if you, one message besides good therapy is to listen to podcasts and think about what's the one thing I can get out of this, and if it doesn't help you in two weeks, then throw it out. It helps you for the next two years, then great. That means what Lisa said has really brought you. So I know I'm plugging your podcast. It's because I have a lot of respect for you, lisa, and thanks.
Speaker 3:Steve.
Speaker 2:You know, good therapeutic relationships and good friendships are sometimes similar. I don't think that when I first contacted you about getting on podcasts we'd end up on the same network and be so close. But hey, here we are. So that's, you know, it's great stuff.
Speaker 3:Yeah, it's pretty neat that you know I always say stay open to ideas and possibilities and opportunities. You just never know what is going to present itself and I think that's that's something that I've learned over the years of you know my own therapy is, you know, try to stay open minded, have an open heart. I mean, I could probably, I can share so much what I've learned about myself over the years, but I won't do that at the end of this episode. I am curious that what is, what is something you're doing right now besides journaling that is, that's been helpful for you with, like any new habits or skills you've picked up recently that are helping you kind of, like you know, with your own emotional health.
Speaker 2:I use. For the last, I want to say about year, I use something from the Atomic Habits book that I still continue to use. That is really helpful. We do a lot of things during a day, but sometimes when we go to bed at night we go like, what did I really do?
Speaker 2:Well, Atomic Habits talks about putting like marbles into a you know, like in and out, so to speak, and what I do is I've now I'm on my third jar of marbles, of things I've done in the last year, and the marbles there's, like you know, I never counted them, but there's a lot of marbles in that thing and it makes me feel like sometimes, when there's days where I'm like God, what the hell did I do? And then I have my barbells right here. That tells me what I've actually done and it makes me realize that we do a lot more than we give ourselves credit for, Because I think that, you know, we don't realize that taking our kids to school and making a healthy lunch is too great accomplishments in a day. We're going to be like, oh, but I didn't finish the podcast right. I didn't do my full intro. No, I did a good lunch and I took my kids to school and I didn't rage, so that's all good stuff.
Speaker 3:Right, right, yeah, no, I like that. I think that in you know, today's culture and society, it's like we measure ourselves sometimes against what we see on social media and we think, well, if I didn't do what they did today, then I'm not. I'm not. You know, quote unquote successful, however, you would be defining success. So I think that's really important is, you know, it sounds like you have a defined a successful day by being a present father who is. You know, your kids are one of your highest values and I think that's that's pretty neat, pretty cool. I like that Very cool.
Speaker 3:Well, steve, thank you so much for being here today. This has just been great. You guys go ahead and grab his book. The link will be his new journal. The link will be in the show notes. If you want to listen to Steve's podcast it's called Finding your Way Through Therapy, and I'll put the link in the show notes as well and definitely check out the other shows that are part of the site craft network. I know that they would love to have you find them, so I'll put a link in the show notes as well for you to check them out. So, once again, thanks for being here.
Speaker 2:Thank you so much, Lisa. Well, that concludes episode 118 of Finding your Way Through Therapy. Thank you so much, Lisa Mustard, for doing this reverse episode. Hope you all enjoyed it. I certainly did. But episode 119 will be a special episode because it's something near and dear to my heart. We're going to talk about first responders in crisis. It's a documentary coming out October 3rd 2023. And we're going to have the co-producer, an actor, as well as the main character of that documentary, and I hope you join me then.
Speaker 1:Please like, subscribe and follow this podcast on your favorite platform. A glowing review is always helpful and, as a reminder, this podcast is for informational, educational and entertainment purposes only. If you're struggling with a mental health or substance abuse issue, please reach out to a professional counselor for consultation. If you are in a mental health crisis, call 988 for assistance. This number is available in the United States.
