Resilience Development in Action
Discover practical resilience strategies that transform lives. Join Steve Bisson, licensed mental health counselor, as he guides first responders, leaders, and trauma survivors through actionable insights for mental wellness and professional growth.
Each week, dive deep into real conversations about grief processing, trauma recovery, and leadership development. Whether you're a first responder facing daily challenges, a leader navigating high-pressure situations, or someone on their healing journey, this podcast delivers the tools and strategies you need to build lasting resilience.
With over 20 years of mental health counseling experience, Steve brings authentic, professional expertise to every episode, making complex mental health concepts accessible and applicable to real-world situations.
Featured topics include:
• Practical resilience building strategies
• First responder mental wellness
• Trauma recovery and healing
• Leadership development
• Grief processing
• Professional growth
• Mental health insights
• Help you on your healing journey
Each week, join our community towards better mental health and turn your challenges into opportunities for growth with Resilience Development in Action.
Resilience Development in Action
E.119 "First Responders In Crisis" Documentary: Tackling Mental Health Stigma in the First Responder Community
Have you ever wondered about the hidden struggles that first responders face on a daily basis? We sit down with Keith Hanks, a retired firefighter EMT from Massachusetts, Scot Ruggles, a former football coach and actor, Corey Moss, the co-director and producer of the documentary 'First Responders in Crisis'. We delve into their experiences, shedding light on the mental health struggles they contend with, and how they find resilience amidst the challenges. We also pay homage to the brave men and women who put their lives on the line.
On this journey, we unpack the importance of mental wellbeing in the lives of those who are often seen as invincible. Keith, Scot, and Corey share their personal journeys with mental health, discussing various therapy modalities and coping strategies they have found beneficial. We take a moment to emphasize the need for regular mental health checkups, in similar fashion to annual physicals. We also discuss the documentary 'First Responders in Crisis', a critical documentary that brings the real, raw, and vulnerable experiences of these brave individuals to the forefront.
In addressing the elephant in the room, we tackle the stigma of mental health, especially in the first responder community. We explore the "tough guy" mentality and its impact on mental health, with insights drawn from Gabor Maté's idea of doing certain jobs to "repair our past".
So, tune in, engage, and let's spark a discussion on the critical issue of mental health among first responders. We believe in the power of shared stories and experiences to drive change and break stigmas. Let this podcast episode be a stepping stone in that journey.
"First Responders In Crisis" will be released October 3rd, 2023 and the trailer is available here.
Hi and welcome to Finding your Way Through Therapy. The goal of this podcast is to demystify therapy, what can happen in therapy and the wide array of conversations you can have in and about therapy Through personal experiences. Guests will talk about therapy, their experiences with it and how psychology and therapy are present in many places in their lives, with lots of authenticity and a touch of humor. Here is your host, steve Bisson.
Speaker 2:Merci beaucoup. Thank you and welcome to episode 119. If you haven't listened to episode 118 yet, it was a reverse episode. So basically, I took Lisa Mustard's episode that she recorded for her podcast and put it out as mine, because I thought it was an equal exchange. So I hope you enjoyed it and go back and listen to 118. But episode 119 is probably one of those subjects that I find so important to me in as first responders. You guys have listened for a long time. You know how important it is to me, and today we're going to talk about a documentary that will air officially October 3, 2023, and it's called First Responders in Crisis. It features former guest of ours, brian Harkins, and if you want to go back to listen to his episodes, please go ahead and do so, but the interview today will not be with Brian. We'll be doing something else with me. But the actual guest this week is three very important people of the movie.
Speaker 2:Keith Hanks is considered the person that is the main character of the movie. He's a retired firefighter, nemt from Massachusetts and 21 year veteran of fire service. He was a trainer, certified educator and field training officer. He was diagnosed with COPLX PTSD in 2015 before retiring and then ended up working on different things, including filming this lengthy documentary. He currently resides in New Hampshire with his wife and is a proud father of three grown children. Scott Ruegel is a football coach turn actor. He actually coached Division I college as well as high school, and he's now an actor. He also is helping with this documentary and he has been very fortunate to be throughout the process of first responders in crisis and wanted to be part of the documentary.
Speaker 2:And finally, and not certainly the least, is Corey Moss. Corey Moss is the co-director and producer of first responders in crisis. He is the writer, director of different movies, including White Elephant, has also been part of documentaries such as soccer slam, as well as Dear Jack. He's been around for a long time. He's been an executive producer at MTV, amc, yahoo, artist First, hearst and Complex Networks.
Speaker 2:Can't wait to talk to all three of them, and here is the interview. Well, hi everyone, and I can't tell you how excited I know I say this a lot, but this one is really dear to my heart. I have Greg Moss, scott Ruegel's and Hank's I want to say all the names correctly. If I screwed up, let me know. They're going to be part of a documentary called first responders in crisis. There's going to be a release on October 3rd 2023. But I know that there's in towns in Massachusetts are going to have a premiere on the 26. And, if anyone is listening to this, I have tickets for you guys to go and see it. That were that were provided to me. But this is so important to me because it talks about something that I know is very difficult first responders and mental health. I saw a little synopsis. I'm quite impressed and, as you know, finding your way through therapy is very committed to helping first responders as best they can. So welcome guys to finding your way through therapy. Thanks for having us.
Speaker 3:Yeah, thanks for having us.
Speaker 2:What I like to do all the time is there's two standard things. I want everyone to introduce themselves, because I can never do justice, even with the bio you gave me. So I'll start off with Keith, if you want to go first, sure.
Speaker 4:So I'm Keith Hanks. I am a retired firefighter EMT from Massachusetts. I worked 21 years, from 1996, 2017, for different levels of fire and EMS organizations throughout the state. I ended up leaving the job on disability due to PTSD post-traumatic stress Before leaving in 2017, I got diagnosed in 2015, where I began advocating for first responders trying to get help, being okay to get therapy, being okay to talk about how this affects us, and it's sort of just taken off from there and led to a lot of different paths, both in books and writing and now film, and it's just been an incredible journey of trying to open up the minds of not just the first responder community but those that look up to the first responder community and trying to let everybody know that we're all human beings and that this stuff affects us and tends to be a tough world. So, in a nutshell, that's kind of what I do and who I am.
Speaker 2:I always tell my clients who don't know much about firefighting. I said imagine living somewhere for 24 hours and then going home and saying, hey, erase everything you just thought about or saw Bingo, bingo. That's very hard to imagine for many people. So welcome, keith, I'm happy to see you here. Corey Moss, you want to go next?
Speaker 3:Sure, yeah, I'm a director, producer, writer. I've been in the entertainment industry for over 20 years now. I've made a bunch of different movies and TV shows and digital series, scripted and unscripted. I've been working on quite a bit of documentary work over the last few years, including this project, and I'm excited to be on the show to talk about it and to talk about this important subject.
Speaker 2:Well, welcome, corey, and thank you for doing this project. This is near and dear to my heart for many, many reasons, and as we record this, it is 9-11. I know it won't be released on that day, but I want to note that we're recording on 9-11 because we should never forget so. Scott Ruggles, you're next.
Speaker 5:Yeah, I appreciate having us on. I grew up right down the street from where you live. I'm familiar with Central Massachusetts in a small town called Townsend. I'm a former college and football college and high school football coach, turned actor, producer and now director in Los Angeles, Grateful to have had the opportunity to live in all those professions, meet some great people and such an honor to do this project with these two guys.
Speaker 2:Welcome. One of the things that I find particularly interesting is knowing going from a coach to what you're doing now. I think it's all coaching and directing and sometimes can be very similar, if you ask me. But that's just my two cents. There's a standard question that we ask on finding your way through therapy and is have you ever been in therapy? And I'm going to start. I'm going to go back to Scott and start and go the other way this time.
Speaker 5:Yeah, I first went to therapy, I think as a little kid wasn't my choice but parents bring in. So I don't really consider that when I first went, but at 38, I went to a woman in Beverly Hills and she started the process of changing my life A process I think you're always finding that journey to be the best version of yourself, but grateful that when I was 38, started that deal, started that process, and has that changed your life in a good way, or did you find it difficult?
Speaker 2:How did it go?
Speaker 5:Yeah, I mean, I think everything's difficult, right, anything worthwhile is difficult, but it's been a wild ride that I don't know if I'd be sitting here if I didn't start doing therapy and some other things in life.
Speaker 2:I like to remind people that therapy is very messy and it's not like something where you go 12 weeks and you feel better and I send you in your merry way, Because if I could I would, but as a therapist that's just not possible. Corey, have you ever been in therapy?
Speaker 3:Yeah. So you know, mental health has been, you know, something that's come up a lot over the last decade, especially through work, just different things, and I knew right away that it was important in that these are things that we need to, you know, address more. And then it really hit me personally over the last few years at a really close family member go through a mental breakdown over Christmas while I was there, and then I had my first anxiety attack and both of those things were instrumental in leading to my interest in taking on this project. Believe it or not, neither of those things inspired me to actually go to therapy, which I look back on and I'm just like what was I thinking? And really what pushed me in was finishing this movie and telling myself like I need to put my money where my mouth is.
Speaker 3:I just made an entire movie telling people that they need to deal with their shit and not just bury it. And here I am burying my stuff and you know it had been, you know, over a year since my anxiety attack at that point and still hadn't gone to therapy. So I started last November. So I'm still very new, but it's been fantastic and I feel like I've learned tools over the last, you know, eight to 10 months that I use almost every day now, and so it's also, I feel, a little bit even more connected to this project, because I can't even begin to, you know, understand what Keith and what Brian Harkins and what a lot of the guys and gals in our movie went through.
Speaker 3:But I can at least relate to them on like, hey, we're all like dealing with it now and that's a good thing.
Speaker 2:So it's sad to say, but the pandemic made us deal with our mental health a lot more, and then it opened the eyes to other people with their mental health issues, and I still think there's a long way to go. But again, that's my little, my little soapbox here. I'll get off of it so that Keith can get on his. So go ahead, keith, have you ever been in therapy?
Speaker 4:Quite a bit. Much like Scott, I definitely was sort of not forced but led to therapy as a child and I sort of stopped going as a teenager you know, rebellious teenager, you can't tell me what to do, kind of thing and then, as my you know, the job sort of took hold and gave me, you know, some more skeletons in my closet. I went back to therapy at a lot of different levels and some was just regular therapy, some was I lost my first wife when I was 24, so I had grief counseling and then, like I said before, in 2015, I actually started trauma therapy and it was different levels of intense therapy, invasive procedures that had good and bad results. But I still stick with therapy and I use other modalities and stuff upon it and I swear by therapy. You gotta have someone you can lay this stuff on and get it out of you and process it and heal from it. And I absolutely you know I swear by it I still go every week.
Speaker 2:And never gonna hear an argument out of me, and I think that it's important to realize that a modality can help you. So far, I specialize in cognitive behavioral therapy. I actually went to school in Worcester for it, but to tell you that I don't use the young shadow work, I am an EMDR therapist also, which helps with a lot of the first responders and the trauma people. So I do a lot of different modalities, because if you think only one modality is gonna work, it's just crazy, right? No pun intended, keith. How about you tell me a little more about the modalities you've been in, because you talked about a few of them but you didn't tell me everything, and you know wanna hear more of your experience.
Speaker 4:Yeah, it was really in 2015, when I started doing trauma work, that the other modalities started kind of coming up. And right away before my official diagnosis of complex PTSD, I tried EMDR, which several different sessions on several different parts of my life and had some good results. Had some bad results, but it was overall. Emdr really did help me process a lot of singular events throughout my life. While on a very lengthy inpatient, I also tried ECT treatment the electronic shock which was looking back on it. My trauma therapist at the time was like I'm not gonna tell you not to do it, but it may not benefit you the most, and I actually ended up. It helped me get out of my depression. I was in a massive depression at the time and it broke the depression, but it caused me significant amounts of memory loss still to this day, but it benefited me. It got me from being a suicidal person to being able to grasp reality, live in the now.
Speaker 4:The big thing I do with therapy these days is meditation and mindfulness and it's not always necessarily looked at. It's more so these days. It's not always looked at as like a mental health resource, but it keeps me more baseline than anything else I do because it keeps me in the now and it allows me to tap into things, to process things with my therapist that I wouldn't be able to do if I wasn't practicing mindfulness and meditation and trying to pardon the expression kumbaya myself every day, things that I used to frown upon as a younger man, for sure. But breath work as well. There's another modality I use Huge breathing. I mean, there's like countless amounts of breathing techniques. Anything you can do to hit your parasympathetic nervous system is only gonna benefit you, and I just kind of use a lot of different things and I always tell people I'm not the shy away from learning something new when it comes to bettering your mindfulness and your mental wellness.
Speaker 2:You know, as a therapist that does also Reiki, I joke around with a whole lot of people that I got a firefighter and a police officer to sit on my table and do Reiki with me. So if I never like succeed at anything else in my job, I succeeded at that and that's kind of a challenge, as Keith nods nicely because he knows how difficult it is. The other thing I would say also is I will never discourage people from doing journaling, because the work you do in therapy is one thing. The work you do outside of therapy is what makes therapy even better, because I can't do your life. I see you 50 minutes a week. I can't fix your life in those 50 minutes. I just can't. I'm pretty good, but I'm not that good just yet. Have you found, corey or Scott, that there's different things that have worked for you that may be outside of therapy has helped you for therapy?
Speaker 5:Yeah, go.
Speaker 3:I'm glad you mentioned journaling because that's been a big one for me. Like, and I think I, you know all of this stuff is like stigmatized right and even journaling, and I think I had it in my head that someone who journals pulls out like a leather notebook at the coffee shop and you know, writes like you know what they're feeling in their heart that day or whatever, and maybe that is what you do, but like for me it was just like, oh, you know, I sit at my computer and type and write movies and stuff all day long, like why can't I just write some stuff about me? And and so I found my way into journaling by just typing on my computer and like it sounds so silly, but it was like what I envisioned in my head journaling was and then what is actually worked for me are so different. I think that's a lot of like you know, what I've learned, just you know, and the almost year of Therapy is like it's not exactly that what you picture in your head.
Speaker 3:You know, even the, the act of like seeing a therapist, like you know, I, you, just you picture yourself like laying on somebody's couch and they're asking you like the deepest questions, and I think, like you know for one, you know, I think most therapy that I see and hear of now has all done like we're right now Over zoom or whatever, just pretty chill, you know it kind of lead. It's a different sort of Environment than laying on someone's couch and also like it's I've, I've. I was quick to learn that it's kind of like what I want to talk about it's not necessarily be improved with questions, and so I find myself throughout the week actually writing down things that I'll want to talk about. So I don't forget.
Speaker 2:Well, if you ever look for a therapist, just look me up, because those are my favorite clients who come in with an agenda because, as much as I'm a hockey fan, I'm from Montreal, so talk about hockey sometimes with my firefighters and my first responders, because that's what gets them talking. Then I transform it, the psychology and therapy, because that can be done. But my favorite ones are come in, they have like a penopon and all right, steve, I got plenty of things to talk about. That gives it a lot easier for us because, again, the work in therapy is 50 minutes. The work outside of therapy is the rest of your life and that's what bring you should bring the therapy. But again, I'll keep on pushing down until I get blue in the face. Scott, is there something that has worked for you outside of therapy that's been very beneficial for you?
Speaker 5:Yeah, like Keith, meditation has been a big part of my life. But in addition to that, yoga has. You know I'm pretty intense by nature, you know, obviously with my coaching background and such, but you know there's not a lot of times and places where you can walk in a room with no cell phone, no talking, and I prefer, you know, a form of heated yoga. But it's been very relaxing, very calming and I think that has helped me in many ways in life. But especially to get into the meditation by doing the yoga has been a game changer for me.
Speaker 2:I Love yoga, and if you ever do Pilates, you'll see how Week we all truly are with our muscles, and it really is a great one too. So I like yoga and Pilates. But you know, scott, I the one thing that comes to mind and I think Corey mentioned it too is there's a lot of stigma that comes from mental health, and how did the address it? How do you address the mental health stuff in your life and other people that you know?
Speaker 5:Well, I don't shy away from it.
Speaker 5:I guess you know, I think a lot of people there's a fear, I think, with mental health, like it's almost like the version of the bully from our childhood.
Speaker 5:You know people don't know how to attack the bully, you know, especially with the suicide rates today, and not just adults but kids. So I just sort of attack it face first. And I think you know part of my job when I was coaching at UCLA was talk to Some kids with some of their off-the-field things that had going on in life and I would just get vulnerable with them and sort of expose some of the things that I've gone through to get them to open up. But I think the only way to really attack mental health is to face it. You know, head on. And you know again, I don't think you got to make change by tiptoeing around certain things and I think the only way to you know, go after some of these things that are very hard to discuss is to go dive in the deep end and I just don't shy away from it when I talk about it to people.
Speaker 2:Got a lot of people who struggled with the stigma and I always say that if you broke your arm, would you go try to put a you know an ace bandage on it and say you'll be good in eight weeks? No, you go see a doctor, you get it fixed and you get the PT, you get everything around it. Mental health is the exact same thing. You can't just like, oh, I feel bad, oh, go home and read a book, you'll be fine. No, you got to work at it, you got to do some effort and that's how you lift stigma.
Speaker 2:As you say that, if you think mental health is going to be easy and it's only for crazies, I've got the Evidence of four people here and many, many other people who have gone the therapy, who are not quote crazy but still really find the benefits of it. I don't know if you see anything type of stigma, corey, especially I know that everyone in Hollywood has a therapist, from what I understand. But Do you see any other type of stigma that you would like to confront in regards all that?
Speaker 3:Absolutely.
Speaker 3:And just to back up to what you said, steve, the analogy of mental health and physical health you know, We've all heard and I I love I was thinking about it the other day because, in regards to you know, just your annual physical and how your insurance companies require it and In jobs, and an athlete is required obviously, and I feel like there's there should be a mental health version of that. Like you know, you, you, you may claim to be the most mentally sound person on the planet, but what would be the harm of once a year going in for a mental health checkup, the same way that you do a physical? Anyway, I've been thinking a lot about that because I think that could be a really interesting way also to kind of Help break the stigma a little bit. I mean, the best way to break the stigma is to go one time right, because then you see what it really is and If you were required to go through your job or through your insurance or whatever it might be, maybe that would change and also, I think, just, you know, I think, changing it to where it was like, not necessarily something where you needed to go every week or, like you know, because I think that's, you know, one of the misconceptions is that you know, there you have to do therapy a certain regimented way and I, you know, I think Therapy could benefit people if it was just a once a year or whatever, or just certain times in their life or whatever.
Speaker 3:So but you know, I, absolutely I, you know, I grew up at a house with two other brothers and you know, like the four people on this call, like we were various forms of of athletes and tough guys and like just you know, not even therapy, but just really communicating about your feelings, it was not something that we did and and you know, it's years later now that we we end phone calls by saying love you, love you bro, or love you dad or whatever, because you know, we had no problem saying love you mom, but saying love you dad was different, and I think, like that's all stigma, you know, and so I've, you know, faced it my whole life.
Speaker 3:So, and I, you know, we didn't, scott and I didn't set out to make this movie, first responders in crisis to With any sort of agenda.
Speaker 3:You know, we, we've, we discovered an incredible story and Keith, and then, through Keith, discovered layers and layers of other incredible stories through other people and, but you know, when them, when we finished this film that we, we believe, is a, you know, a beautiful piece of art, you, it's very easy to see that this movie can do something beyond just, you know, entertain, which is to break the stigma, and In a huge way.
Speaker 3:I think the biggest way is that, basically, most of the movie is, you know, tough, tough guys and girls, women, you know, breaking the stigma and and communicating and breaking down and being honest with us, and so that's exciting, incredibly exciting for me, and I know Scott is the same way and Keith, those the same way, is About having this movie come out now, in a few weeks. Is, you know, we, we're doing it with this movie, like we're, we're showing people out there most vulnerable and I, you know I can't thank them enough for Doing that for us, for coming on to camera and and being real, breaking down into tears, going into, you know, dark places, and and so that's the thing I'm most excited about is being able to break the stigma with this movie.
Speaker 2:I Appreciate you doing that and you know the one thing I remind my clients have clients on the maintenance plan and literally one guy once said I come in every three months. You're like my oil change, everything's good, I just go on my way. If not, you know, you kick the tires, stay for a couple of weeks and then go back on my own merry way for three months. I think that's not the worst thing in the world. You know I go back to this important movie and, keith, I'm looking at you as one of the main characters, so to speak. It's not a character, it's who you are, obviously, but you know you. You talk about some of the stigma that some of the firefighters, police officers, emt, paramedics and everyone in the first responder world really struggle with. What's the biggest stigma that you feel are the most challenging for that type of population, so to speak?
Speaker 4:So there's a got a misnomer right which is part of the stigma. And what is what has happened in the last probably 10 years in the first responder and veteran community is there's been awareness brought to this. We now accept the fact that there is a mental health and suicide crisis in our, in our culture, and that's fine and that's great and that's super important. And one of the sort of unspoken parts about the stigma, at least in, you know, the first responder community, is that it's accepted that you talk about the stuff that's affected you from the job, that you're still a tough guy. Of course you're upset because you saw 16 dead babies in a week, but of course you have said you had to carry a day grandma of a burning house. But what isn't talked about is the personal effects on you, the stuff that happened before you went to the job, your childhood, personal things that happen when you were on the job, that had nothing to do with the job, and that's sort of the hard part, the hard sort of like the stigma itself.
Speaker 4:Mental health stigma is like the umbrella and this part is one of the tears under and that's one of the tears I go at when I Get on the stage and I talk about this shit is I pull out of the plugs and people don't expect it, and the one thing with this with these, with this audience, is that they can handle raw stuff.
Speaker 4:They don't want to talk about the stuff that isn't the tough guy stuff, but they can handle the raw stuff. And that's what needs to be done is we need to start talking about the other things, not just you know, the lights and sirens. We need to talk about the stuff that happens when we're sitting on our couch, the stuff that happened before we decided to go to the academy or boot camp or whatever it is, and there's a lot of us out there, other speakers, that are starting to do that, and I think that's an important part, and one of the most difficult parts of the stigma is getting the men and women of the first responder world to be able to appreciate and Believe that. That's a lot of what makes us who we are on the job. Is this stuff to happen before or this happening off the job?
Speaker 2:And I also go back to a little bit of Gabor Maté and he talks about all the jobs we do. We do sometimes to repair our past and I look at the first responder world and you know, thinking about first responders in crisis, sometimes because they've been in crisis themselves in the past or like I don't want anyone else to go through that, so they get involved. I don't know if that's your experience, keith, I'm just talking from a therapist perspective. I will not steal, I've never been a firefighter, police officer and I'm not any of that, I'm just a therapist. But I've worked enough with the guys that and gals and women and men that like that, and I don't know if you find that that occurs a lot because we try to fix our past. I think that's all we do. I.
Speaker 4:Always I quote bringing up the dead in Nicholas Cage help others and you help yourself. And that's a very true statement. There's a lot of us who are trying to patch up our past, whether we did something bad or had something bad was done to us. We're trying to find that purpose. We're trying to be there for others when someone wasn't for us and I know, for me, hey, getting on the job really wasn't a choice to me, it was gonna happen regardless. My family been doing it for 150 years. So it was, it was just gonna happen, but I did it. My purpose for doing it was because I wasn't gonna let someone else suffer. If I could help, I was gonna do it, and so many other first responders. If you sit down with them Maybe not at the firehouse kitchen table, but if you sit down with them, that's what they're gonna tell you. No one was there for me. I'm gonna make sure I'm there for them. I yeah.
Speaker 3:I'm really happy to bring this up, keith, and we've never talked about it, actually, but when we were editing this movie, we had hours and hours and hours of incredible interviews and footage.
Speaker 3:It was like what are we going to include and what are we not going to include? I think it would have been easy for us to say, well, there's a lot of stuff in Keith's life that isn't connected to being a first responder. But my instinct was but this is who he is and this is an important part of all of the story, and so you'll see in the movie, the movie isn't entirely about being a first responder. We go into other parts of Keith's life that is not connected. We go into other parts of other people's lives, especially the veterans to their experiences that aren't part of it. And I think the reason that felt so important for Scott and I as we were putting the movie together was it isn't just, like he said, about the sirens or whatever. It goes beyond that, and I'm glad that we ended up going that route with the movie, because I think it would have been really easy not to Got any thoughts?
Speaker 5:No, just to go on what Corey said just an amazing opportunity. Never had any idea what this community goes through. You just see, they show up when something bad happens, but at the end of the day, they're human beings that are going through the same shit as everybody else. So the fact that we get to play a small role in getting this stuff out to the public was an unbelievable opportunity, and can't wait for everybody to see it.
Speaker 2:I'm excited to see it. I saw the synopsis and one of the most. There's two striking things in the synopsis that you put out on that, corey, for the first responders in crisis is 2% of the population is first responders, yet they represent 20% of suicide attempts. That's number one. And our mental health system is broken at 100%. I'm a therapist. I can tell you from firsthand it's even more broken for the first responders and I don't know again. I just saw the synopsis. I'm looking forward to seeing the documentary.
Speaker 2:One of the hard parts is I see crisis intervention, stress management or SISMS, when something occurs, and I've been part of those teams. I'm no longer part of those teams for the simple fact that once they're mandatory, once they're forced, who the hell is going to freaking talk? And that's just my two cents and that's from experience from my other guys, and I don't know if you talk about that in the documentary, but if not, I mean, keith, I'd like to hear your impressions on that, because that's part of the crisis, in my opinion, for the first responders and they're like oh, you saw two dead babies and you held them in your hands. Let's all get together 48 hours later with 27 people in the room and let's talk about our feelings. I know enough first responders. They don't give a fuck about doing that, but anyway, keith, or anybody who wants to talk about that.
Speaker 4:It's ironic you bring that up and I'll kind of get into this little inquiry and kind of follow it up. But yes, sisms and one of the things we actually we actually opened up the film with this, with a scenario about this, and one of my first fatal fires was within four months of me turning 18. I got on the job two days after my 18th birthday and I had a fatal fire within four months of it and it was a pretty bad. It was a murder, suicide and we almost lost our fire chief in it. And the call itself is really bad.
Speaker 4:But the way the SISMS was handled after because it was 1997, it was one of those things that the person running it said it in a way that he didn't really want an answer, he didn't want people to talk about it. It was like all right, you guys bad call. You know someone died, someone almost died, you almost lost your fire chief. Does anyone want to share feelings? And the way he said that no one was going to speak and it was a room of all men I think there might have been one, looking back, there might have been one female cop, but all men and I'm 18 years old and there's other guys who just got on the job with me. We're not going to talk if the old guy's not, and he ended up with, you know, copy and donuts in the back and we broke up.
Speaker 4:No one, you know, we went on our own thing. We're going to, you know, stroking each other and being like, oh yeah, blah, blah, blah, but we didn't talk about it and I'm 18 years old and that to me, that was part of the foundation that was laid and I then became one of those guys who never talked about it and I never. I went to maybe like two more systems throughout my career and I was a black cloud. I was going to bad traffic calls, probably weekly, and I only went to two systems because of that. And you know Corey can kind of go more on that, but we originally were going to use that scenario as the title to the movie.
Speaker 3:Yeah, the Keith told us that story the first time that I met him and you know, it really struck me with. This is this is a story that needs to be told and, like you mentioned, we we called the movie Coffee and Donuts and we called it that throughout the entire time of filming and editing it. And then it was about to come out and we're like people might think this is actually about coffee and donuts, so we put a movie on hookup, so in the very, very end we changed it. It'll always be coffee and donuts to Scott and I and Keith.
Speaker 3:But you know it's interesting because you know that was the an awakening for me as far as, like you know, these guys are not being, you know, our country's heroes, are not being given the proper mental health care that they deserve, and you know I knew that from that initial call with Keith and that was what we, the story that we went in to tell what I came out with, what I had no idea that that I would discover, you know, working on this was not only are they not provided the proper mental health care, they're actually really given the absolute worst advice possible, which is vary it, don't bring it home, don't talk about it.
Speaker 3:And that was, you know, that was just absolutely shocking to me to just interview after interview. You know these experiences about. You know, not necessarily directly, but especially like systemically. You know, like most of the people in our film, like Keith, you know, got into the family business and you know their parents showed that they don't bring it home, they don't talk about it. And so you know, the military was the same way. A lot of our characters are veterans. So that was the shocking part to me. It's like, you know, obviously, yes, it's a problem that there's not being proper mental health care. You know, it is a much bigger problem when the opposite advice is being told, you know, and so that was, that was a very eye opening.
Speaker 2:Did you? Were you there, scott, when they talked about that system stuff? Because I'd like to hear your impressions on that stuff too, because you know how it is when you have a team of people.
Speaker 5:Yeah, yeah, definitely got the witness sat and you know with the gentleman in the dock that talks about that and obviously what Keith said.
Speaker 5:But I think you know that's what makes a great team is when you can have open lines of communication, both good and bad.
Speaker 5:And I think if we're going to change things, whether it's in a team becoming more united, which I think would give you better results in the field, or you know same thing in a firehouse, a police station, in the military, if these guys could freely talk with you know other men and women in their companies or their units, you think about how strong you know they would be overall and I think you know the world owes them that solid or that favor to find a way to lift this. You know stigma, that you can't talk, that you're weak and start. You know, using like a visual, that the toughest people in the room are the ones that are willing to talk about it. It's not the guy that's willing to go up to somebody in a bar and punch them in the face. That's not tough, you know, and I think that's what people you know think is tough. But the strongest and toughest people that I've met are the ones that will freely open up that they might be having a bad day and they could use them out.
Speaker 2:You know I look at Brian who has been there, done that. He went from the military to Brian Harkins, who went from the military to the Department of Correction to fire and he's a pretty impressive dude. And then you listen to him talk and he's so open and it just makes you want to talk about it more. And I know he's part of the documentary first responder in crisis and I have a lot of admiration for Brian because I've talked to him several times now.
Speaker 2:One of the other things that I don't know if you address in the movies that you spoke to a doctor, the hardest part for me as a therapist is, you know, I don't claim to be a first responder. I don't like to put that there as an expert because I think that's just a way to keep people away from you. But how do we train people whether it's the community within the fire system, whether the police to be much more open about mental health and finding the right people? Because again, I think I do a pretty good job, but again I don't want to. I feel like as soon as you put first responder expert as a therapist, it's a total turn off. So I don't put that there anywhere. I say I work with first responders. I don't know if that's your experience or anybody wants to go and talk about that.
Speaker 4:I think a big buzzword and you probably know this in these days when first responders is culturally competent, when it comes to this and it gets misused, it's really hard to have culturally competent modalities and therapists. If you're not going to allow these people into our world, you can't get the experience. If you can't get the experience. And it does take a unique personality, and that's all it is A unique personality to be able to tolerate the things that a first responder man or woman, you know, salty, veteran or newbie is going to tell you, because it's not just the job, it's not just the bad cause. It's waning for that next call, it's coming home and being off for 72 hours and not really being off, it's hearing the bells and seeing the house lights go off and hearing the radio when you're nowhere near one. And that's the stuff that therapists and other modalities clinicians, licensed social workers, whatever they are in order to become culturally competent, they need to get into this and they don't need to become a first responder. If you're going to deem, if one of these people gonna deem themselves culturally competent, they need to get more clients in that culture and that's all it is. And I think a lot of and I deal with it all the time.
Speaker 4:Well, this person is in part of this clique. They're not part of this fraternity house where you can go and talk about your war stories. It's like, well, you gotta let them in. These people gotta get experience with people like us, because for the past hundred plus years we've been putting up a brick wall and telling these people to go pound sand and they will not get better at it. They will not get better at dealing with people like me. I am one of the most stubborn, stoic people you will ever meet. Well, I used to be, I'm not as much now but and I could deflect like nobody else. And you gotta get their best to be able to see past that and to be able to see that.
Speaker 4:Oh, this person is deflecting right now because this is what a first responder and a veteran does, because it's not about them, it's about everyone else. Is everyone else okay? Is my team okay? Is my family okay? Is my brother or my sister okay? And that's part of the cultural competence that, I think, is. The misnomer is that these people need the experience in order to get the cultural competence and we're slowly getting there. But the problem is or our own worst enemies in the first responder and veteran world. We don't wanna let outsiders in, but in order to get these culturally competent practitioners, we need to let people in so they can get the experience to understand how we work outside of just the regular. Yeah, I had a bad call.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think that I think my friend Jay Ball says it fast when he says most first responders speak two languages English and sarcasm. Dark humor, yeah, and you gotta understand that dark humor sometimes is a survival skill and sometimes you gotta address it and there's a fine balance and you gotta know when to take those shots and I think that that's why it's hard to be culturally competent on that subject. But just my two cents and I've been privileged to work with the firefighters and the police officers, not only in therapy, did some jail diversion stuff, but ultimately I think that with the first responder in crisis, I think that we need to also find ways to make people actually culturally competent.
Speaker 3:I don't know what you think, corey or Scott, but yeah, no, I think that it's a super important point and it's tough because this is such a massive issue and it's so complicated in it, so there's so many different directions that we should be pointing people and things like that Like more than could ever, I think, be put into a film. I think if you wanted to make sort of the definitive mental health first responder documentary, it's probably like an eight to 10 hour series or something like that. So I think we made the decision to, from the very beginning, not try to make the definitive mental health and first responder documentary but instead to shine a light on this issue through the lens of one community, and I think it's a subtler sort of approach and but I think it definitely sort of opens opens, hopefully, viewers' eyes and starts to take them down the path towards this stuff. That said, it was very important for us to also sort of show how what people are doing now, and so really the last third of the movie is sort of our happy ending, in a way that everybody is dealing with their shit and doing it in different ways and we kind of have whole segments of that and then the movie ends.
Speaker 3:It's my favorite stuff, which is Keith and Brian bring their families out to a farm that was opened by another firefighter for that purpose, for first responders to be able to come out and, just you know, connect with animals and be away and put your phone away and that kind of thing. And that was not a type of you know therapy or you know method of recovery or whatever that I had ever heard of or thought of or whatever. But you could see, just the day we were there, you know, we could see the weight lifted from these guys and see it work, and so that was a really cool part of the experience.
Speaker 2:I think that it's important to also figure out, you know, what works for a person. You know I look at there's a veterans program in Ashland Mass which he's a first responder himself. He's talked about his own crisis. I know him from just knowing with him. Apparently I'm on the board of directors, I didn't even know, but what he does is he takes people out on the boat, goes out in the Atlantic Ocean and fishes If they want, if they call me once in a while and they say, hey, steve, I think this guy just needs to talk to someone. Go on a boat alone with him, okay, fine, sometimes they do, sometimes they don't, but sometimes fishing, going to a farm.
Speaker 2:We talked about other modalities, but I think it's important to find what is gonna work for those individuals and when you think about first responders in crisis, telling them you know what you need ECT, you need EMDR, you need CBT, you need whatever. I think is a big problem also because it's not as easy, as I just said. And again, I see both of you nodding. I see you, scott, nodding. What do you think Scott nodding? What do you think Scott about? Like, how do we help them? And what's the message of the movie that you think people should get from this movie.
Speaker 5:Well, I think you know the old saying Rome wasn't built in a day.
Speaker 5:You know you're not gonna cure somebody with mental health issues in one day.
Speaker 5:And I think the theme really for you know, people outside the movie watching it is, you know, take that first step, get the place started, get off the sideline, because in order to fix yourself and start that journey, you gotta take the first step. And I think that's so hard for people when they're so down they can't see, you know, the future or the end of the tunnel, the light at the end of the tunnel. And I'm hoping this movie, whether it's people in the first respondent world or somebody you know just sitting at the house, you know having a real rough time, as they can use these people that were so strong to come out publicly and talk about their stories in their life that it'll, you know, they can see that and say, hey, if that person can do it, so can I, let me find the right person and get this journey started. So you know, hopefully what the people did for us by going on film can truly help people, obviously within the first respondent community, but hopefully around the world.
Speaker 2:I like that. And, corey, what do you hope people get out of this movie?
Speaker 3:Yeah, I think we've talked about it a lot already and I think you know just how important it is you know this line's in the movie at least a few times but just how important it is to communicate and to talk and not to bury things. And you know that maybe that's therapy, but maybe it's also just a spouse or a friend or a colleague, a fellow firefighter or just a fellow player on your team if you're in sport, whatever it might be. And you know, and I also think, like you know, we show you people who really have gone through a lot of stuff Keith at the very top of that list and you know now they're doing really impactful things and I think that's really encouraging for people to see. Like you know, I might be struggling with something right now, but you know I can see an example of someone who came out of that tunnel and now they're doing so much good for the world.
Speaker 2:I like that message, Keith. What do you hope people get out of this movie?
Speaker 4:One of the things I always tell people and this was told me during my initial training and it was meant for a different reason, not mental health, it was told to me start getting comfortable being uncomfortable, and that phrase has stuck with me for 27 years and it always was, you know, more geared towards the job and our tasks. But the biggest leaps I made in my healing with trauma has been getting out of my comfort zone, because the thing with trauma and mental health is oftentimes, as uncomfortable as it may feel, it's still more comfortable than trying to deal with it. And when I dealt with my shit and I started taking this shit head on, it was because I was getting out of my comfort zone. I was getting into an uncomfortable zone, and that's the biggest thing I always tell people.
Speaker 4:And I hope because at several parts and Corey and Scott have already alluded to this at several parts in this film there are grown ass men who break down in front of the camera and they had the opportunity to be like I don't want that in the film and these men chose to have this in the film and that is the uncomfortable zone. That is, they were living in the uncomfortable zone and that's a hard place to be and we did it and these guys did it and that's where people really need to look if they want to heal and they want to be okay to heal. You just got to get out of your comfort zone because it'll bring you down, it'll kill you, and I hope people find some hope, find some strength in seeing people bear their souls for no other reason but to help people, and I really hope the message gets conveyed that it's okay to be, okay, just reach out for help and get better.
Speaker 2:I think that the other message I hear from everyone is that reach out to your team and be there for each other, because one of my favorite quotes from my buddy, jay Ball, who talks about how you don't need to have bars and stripes in order to be a leader in any department of where you're at and I think that my hope is based on what you guys are telling me people will also see that you don't need to be a Sergeant or Lieutenant, a Captain or a Chief in order to really make a difference with your team, and I don't know if you agree with that, but I just want to throw that out.
Speaker 4:Leadership is not defined by rank 100%.
Speaker 2:I think that, on that note, I'd like to hear more, a little bit about Corey. I'd turn to you the release of the movie. Where can we find it? Stuff like that? Can you let me know?
Speaker 3:Yeah, absolutely so. The movie comes out October 3rd and it'll be anywhere that you can buy or rent movies so, apple being, itunes being the biggest one, but whether it could be Amazon or Direct-Eview or Red Box or whatever it might be. There's a screening in Townsend, obviously on September 27th, big 500 seat theater, so there's plenty of tickets still. We're bringing out all the characters from the film will be there and sort of celebrate everyone's hard work put into this and stuff, so that's going to be really special. And then we're doing a Los Angeles premiere at the Awareness Film Festival, which is on our release day on October 3rd, and that's going to be a really special night too. It's actually a fundraiser for the victims of the fires in Maui, so that's going to be a really cool event as well.
Speaker 3:And then, yeah, that day, october 3rd, is when the movie comes out, I believe September 23rd. Around that time, a few weeks out, there's going to be a special free buy discount where you can buy the movie early for like 4.99 or something like that. So if you follow the movie on first responders and crisis on Instagram and Facebook and TikTok, we'll have all the details there as far as the pre-sales and those types of things and details on that, premieres and whatnot. But yeah, thank you for asking, thank you so much for having us on and it's important what you do, steve, and we're champions of that and always here to help you and we really appreciate your support for our project.
Speaker 2:Bottom of my heart. Thank you guys Keith for putting yourself out there, corey and Scott for just being part of this project. That is so important, and I'm going to link all this stuff on the show notes from the podcast and we'll definitely have a lot of people go and watch it because it's a very important project. So, thank you guys. Well, thank you. Well, that's it for episode 119. Thank you so much, scott. Thank you so much, keith, thank you so much, corey. Hope you go and listen to this documentary, available October 3rd on all platforms where you can buy or rent movies. For episode 120, though, will be a returning guest, lynn Key, who will talk to us in regards to the different parameters that she has faced in regards to legal issues, based on the story she told on different episodes before in regards to the sexual trauma and abuse that she went through. So I hope you join us then.
Speaker 1:Please like, subscribe and follow this podcast on your favorite platform. A glowing review is always helpful and, as a reminder, this podcast is for informational, educational and entertainment purposes only. If you're struggling with a mental health or substance abuse issue, please reach out to a professional counselor for consultation. If you are in a mental health crisis, call 988 for assistance. This number is available in the United States.
