Unearth the profound wisdom as we reconvene with the Mental Men, an insightful group who've made their mark on our show. The conversation between Pat Rice, Robert Cherney, Andrew Kang, and Dennis Sweeney is a treasure chest, brimming with the rich experiences of seasoned therapists who share their pearls of wisdom about the importance of mentorship in shaping the future of therapy. We delve into the differences in practices between various generations of therapists, peeling back the layers to reveal how these disparities can influence the future of therapeutic teaching and practice.
Journey with us as we dissect the significance of community support and mutual learning in our quest to evolve as therapists. Feel firsthand the power of peer groups, consultations, and supervision groups, as they nurture openness and foster learning. Tune in to hear our personal stories about our learning journeys and the ways we've shared knowledge with our peers, students, and how kindness, patience, and gratitude in therapy can weave together to form a strong therapeutic alliance.
We close by examining the importance of humility, continuous learning, and embracing imperfection in our profession. Be empowered by insights on how making peace with our mistakes can open doors to personal and professional growth. Also, tune in to hear about the power of self-control, the art of letting go, and being authentic in therapy. Our esteemed guests elaborate on how self-disclosure can pave the way for deeper and more genuine relationships with patients. Listen in to this engaging, thought-provoking episode and gain a fresh perspective on therapy from seasoned professionals in the field. Consider this an open invitation to enter the minds of the Mental Men, and partake in a nourishing feast of knowledge and insights.
Unearth the profound wisdom as we reconvene with the Mental Men, an insightful group who've made their mark on our show. The conversation between Pat Rice, Robert Cherney, Andrew Kang, and Dennis Sweeney is a treasure chest, brimming with the rich experiences of seasoned therapists who share their pearls of wisdom about the importance of mentorship in shaping the future of therapy. We delve into the differences in practices between various generations of therapists, peeling back the layers to reveal how these disparities can influence the future of therapeutic teaching and practice.
Journey with us as we dissect the significance of community support and mutual learning in our quest to evolve as therapists. Feel firsthand the power of peer groups, consultations, and supervision groups, as they nurture openness and foster learning. Tune in to hear our personal stories about our learning journeys and the ways we've shared knowledge with our peers, students, and how kindness, patience, and gratitude in therapy can weave together to form a strong therapeutic alliance.
We close by examining the importance of humility, continuous learning, and embracing imperfection in our profession. Be empowered by insights on how making peace with our mistakes can open doors to personal and professional growth. Also, tune in to hear about the power of self-control, the art of letting go, and being authentic in therapy. Our esteemed guests elaborate on how self-disclosure can pave the way for deeper and more genuine relationships with patients. Listen in to this engaging, thought-provoking episode and gain a fresh perspective on therapy from seasoned professionals in the field. Consider this an open invitation to enter the minds of the Mental Men, and partake in a nourishing feast of knowledge and insights.
Hi and welcome to Finding your Way Through Therapy. The goal of this podcast is to demystify therapy, what can happen in therapy and the wide array of conversations you can have in and about therapy Through personal experiences. Guests will talk about therapy, their experiences with it and how psychology and therapy are present in many places in their lives, with lots of authenticity and a touch of humor. Here is your host, steve Bisson.
Steve Bisson:Je vous remercie, mr Announcer, and welcome to Episode 122. If you haven't listened to Episode 121 yet, jenny Helms Calvin was on. She was amazing. I follow her on social media, got to meet her. She's an amazing interview. She's starting a group coaching and I hope you go and listen to that episode. You'll hear more about it.
Steve Bisson:Episode 122 is a follow-up of Episode 108 with the mental men. This is a great group of guys that I've known for years Dennis Sweeney, who I considered a mentor for many years he now calls me a colleague, which is always weird. Pat Rice, who has been on nine episodes and hopefully he will be back again. Andrew Kang, who is now on number two for himself, as well as Dr Robert Cherney. This is a great group of guys. We talk about different things and I never know where we're going to go with these interviews. So how about you listen and you tell me what you think?
Steve Bisson:Well, hi everyone, and welcome to Episode 122 of Finding your Way Through Therapy. I'm bringing back the mental men. We were on Episode 108, and we didn't even get through half the questions and now we, as usual, chatted. We've played golf and the whole nine yards, so now we have about 27 other topics. So this is great for a podcast, but also time management-wise not so good. But I want to welcome back my guests Andrew Kang, robert Cherney, pat Rice and Dennis Sweeney. Welcome, guys.
Speaker 4:Thank you.
Steve Bisson:Thanks for having us. You know, just as a quick I know we quick is not something that we do really well here, but quickly, if you can reintroduce yourself, if you guys, if everyone wants to have a better intro, go to Episode 108,. But just a quick intro and we'll start off with Dennis.
Speaker 4:Well, dennis Sweeney and been a therapist for a very long time now and my specialty is around addiction and recovery, but I have a pretty much a general mental health practice.
Steve Bisson:Well, welcome again, dennis, and I feel like there's going to be a part three just based on our 15-minute conversation prior to this. Pat Rice, you're next.
Speaker 3:I'm the elder statesman here, although I'm not the longest practicing one, because it was a midlife, mid-30s crisis that ended me in Dennis's office as my intern supervisor. But I developed a practice mostly around trauma and dual diagnosis and have shifted more recently into wellness, aging, spirituality, grief loss and some of that esoterica, and that's about it.
Steve Bisson:Robert Cherney or Dr Robert Cherney. I always forget the doctor part.
Speaker 5:Hello, my name is Bob Cherney and at this point in my career and, as Dennis put it, it's been a few decades now that I've been practicing I have the privilege, I think, of doing a couple of things. One is I'm the chief psychologist at a large mental health agency. It's a community mental health agency which gives me a lot of exposure to many, many different kinds of things, not just social class, psychopathologies, things like that but it gives me a lot of opportunity to teach, which I really enjoy, and I also have a private practice, so I'm a psychologist as well as a licensed alcohol and drug counselor, so I see a fair amount of dual diagnosis.
Speaker 5:but I tend to keep my practice limited to adults because children tend to break my heart and it's difficult.
Steve Bisson:I forgot to say EMDR practitioner, but I'll plug that for you. I'm a what?
Speaker 5:kind of practitioner, EMDR. Oh yeah, yeah, I do that too.
Steve Bisson:Nothing like age to forget what you've done. There you go, andrew.
Speaker 6:Hey Steve, thanks for having us again. My name is Andy Kang. I'm a private practice therapist. This is my second career, also as a lawyer, in my past life. Do not regret that decision. So happy to meet you. I do also work with people with substance abuse issues Did. My training at Advocates with Bob and Dennis really taught me a lot, and that's why I'm here with you guys is to learn more.
Steve Bisson:Well, I think it's kind of what we were talking about prior. One of the things I realized talking to all of you is that I'm the youngest in this group, which makes me feel young and also, oh my God, what is our like? The people behind us, so to speak, coming up. And you know, part of the stuff we talked about in episode 108 is the mentorship stuff. I know that me and Andrew take that very seriously. I know that you guys had Dick, who really was supportive of you and kind of like mentorship, and we were talking a little bit about how you know what's.
Steve Bisson:You know, we used to think that there were too many therapists coming in. Robert said earlier, bob, I'm going to stop reading the names on the zoom but at the end of the day, we always think that and yet there's always some you know, young up and coming, new people coming in. So we definitely see a shift from one generation to another. I don't know what you guys want to talk about in regards to that, but I think it's important to think about what's next in general mentorship wise.
Speaker 3:That's a very good topic because I've said to almost anyone that would listen I think I retired out of the hospital system where I had an intern program for the same hospital. I met Bob and Dennis and worked under them as a student and then I was the guy in charge of the intern system for about 20 years, but that was 10 years ago, 11 years ago. But I said to almost anybody I really miss the students because, as Andy says, that's how I learned. I know Andy still teaches at BC in the social work school and I used to guest lecture for him. I loved it and it's because it's the best questions, and so one of the things that these types of connections and the connection that I have with all of you guys, often on a golf course these days as well, is that it keeps it fresh, because I never am without a panel to throw something by, which is how the mental men started and then expanded into a big peer supervision network, is that you have to have somebody to share things with, whether it is your personal challenges as they affect your practice or when we were meeting live.
Speaker 3:I remember some of those clinical case presentations for it. There was genius around listening to the formulations and the other peer eyes focus. So I really miss it and I noticed that one of the things that is, we shifted away from our old core in the peer supervision network. I've always encouraged students to find that just what the intern seminar was about to begin that process of always having a community is that there were some of the real newbies that started with us years ago faded fast. They faded out quickly as opposed to, and so it was kind of the core of the old guard. It's changed now, thank goodness, but I really miss the teaching aspect of it and value so much these connections because it helps to keep it fresh.
Speaker 6:We used to really maybe get more of that in the office.
Speaker 6:Going back to the office. This year really has been useful for that. But when we weren't in the office it was tremendously isolating. So it was even more important to see people and to talk about what's going on. But I have ongoing supervision that I pay for so that I, you know, in addition, just to have a specific outlet to discuss cases and to run issues by. But the peer supervision is really important too. So I think we can't ever get enough. But in terms of helping the younger folks, I just try to be available. You know, I just try to take all questions at equal value and weight and try to give the best advice I can to people. That's funny because as therapists we really withholding advice a lot of the time, you know holding back our reins, but in supervision it's almost the opposite. It's sort of you get to say what you think a lot more, which I kind of like.
Speaker 5:I think I'll jump on that, because I've had interns now for at least 15 years, or maybe 20 years, and I really have come to the conclusion that it's rejuvenating.
Speaker 5:You know, there's an energy that flows back and forth between whatever I am the teacher I suppose I'd call it to the students and the younger folks who are basically coming into the field, which I find really encouraging, on the one hand because there's so much enthusiasm and so much intelligence and it's a wonderful way to do it.
Speaker 5:But one of the things I do you know I've really come to understand is that as I teach I learn, and the older I get, the more I realize I don't know, and so it's a good thing that I keep teaching, on the one hand, but I also just translate into something.
Speaker 5:I always say there are no stupid questions, because a lot of, if I'm doing a group, especially now that we're we're do things on zoom, a fair amount, you know there might be 30 people in the room, so to speak, and people you know I'll notice certain people will just kind of like, not talk, and I know they have something to say because I've talked to them in person and so when I do this I often will just watch the screen and look for facial changes and things. So when people you know scrunch up their mouth or they tilt their head, and then I'll call on them and of course, they come forth with something. That's really an interesting point, and I'm always struck with how much knowledge and wisdom is in the room, no matter how old people are, and I really that's what I love, because you come out of it feeling Again like wow, we've got a great team here, they have a lot to offer and I'm glad I'm part of it.
Speaker 6:Bob, I was. I was bummed that my son, joey, decided not to go train with you guys, because I wanted him to be kind of at your knee for a while and to get his clinical training. He ended up going to a school where he's going to actually be able to do working with teams, so which is really what he wants to do. But I just I knew that was good, that would be good for him and then he would get a lot of great mentorship and information just doing those clinical hours. But he made the choice.
Speaker 5:Well, he's always welcome back Andy.
Speaker 6:There'll be more opportunities.
Speaker 5:I'm sure All he's got to do is give me a call and he's got a job if he wants it. So I really hope he has a great experience. You got to make a choice about that kind of stuff and he's wise. I think that's where he's going to have stuff that he really is interested and passionate about. The community mental health system gives you a very broad range of experience, which is wonderful, but it also the way I say it is. Sometimes we have to throw people into the deep end of the pool, even though they're not as experienced as I'd like them to be. So there's trade-offs, but you learn.
Steve Bisson:Well, I think that being thrown into the deep end of the pool is exactly what the community mental health system is, and in a good way, because this is where you learn what you don't like and what you like and what others can bring to you. One of the things that I still remember to this day and sitting in that room with you in Marlboro and having a bunch of people throw ideas out. I think even of our supervision when we used to have it more formally as a peer support system. It was always interesting to have, like you know, pat would bring and again I'm going to give examples that are true. I think that Pat has a lot more of a spiritual sense to what is going on, which is very important in therapy, and I'll stand behind that until someone proves me wrong.
Steve Bisson:Dennis is much more grounded and is also able to look at things from that perspective. I'm more of a, you know, instinctual kind of like. I just say I blurted out it's called straight to the point, therapy for a reason, but that sometimes can be bad, and learning to be grounded is something Dennis has really taught me. And you know, at the end of the day, I think that when you talk about peer support and I think Andy was mentioning that is that when we have other peers, there's so much in like, there's so much in the room that we get to a different point of view. And I don't know, dennis, what you think, but I think that that's what I feel like the peer support can be beneficial to us.
Speaker 4:I think the peer support is extremely beneficial, in part because it gives people in the group, but also the individuals, an opportunity to sort of bounce things off, and the important part of that bouncing off is being able to take what comes back and being able to learn from that and when. One of the things that I've tried to impart over the years to interns or people who are new in the field, but I guess for all of us as we're evolving in the field, is that, to go along with what you said, bob, the importance of learning, and that one of the things that I was taught very early on is that the most important thing that you should take as sort of reward for what you do is what you learn, both about yourself and about your craft. You know what you're doing, what you know, how you can help people, because that's the most significant way that you're going to help people is by continuing to learn.
Speaker 5:And just just as a comment to piggyback on that, dennis, because I think it's a great point we actually have now within the clinics you know we have four clinics with about 100 clinicians we have peer support groups and the longer we have the supervision groups, consultation groups with more senior person running them, and then we've got, they've started, peer support and I think it's wonderful, because one of the things that I try to impart is to people, when we're talking and supervision, or just in the hallway, frankly, in the kitchen, be open and honest and you'll learn.
Speaker 5:You know, because a lot of people think, oh my God, I'm supposed to know everything, or I shouldn't feel this way, or I have no idea what to say. Well, I don't know one therapist in the world that hasn't had those feelings at times. And so a lot of people, when they have peers, when they have a peer supervision group, they can really, I think, open up and be more vulnerable, which I think is extremely important. And, like you said, you know, be you can, you can give it out, but be ready to, you know, absorb it back in and take it and when, when somebody gives you feedback and it's, it's a wonderful way to learn.
Speaker 3:So I'll add that when I started with you guys you know, in my house 40 years old I think, when I was licensed and but I start out my late 30s as a student it was an extraordinary system we had there with study groups and book book groups, and you know it was a remarkable which I then I carried forward. It's the only way I knew how these things could run. I encouraged every group of students and I have four or five each year to network with each other and they've stayed in touch and this is a plug for you, steve, I don't know, this may be my seventh or something, something like that seven or eight of these podcasts and I send them to all my students and they love them, and then I hear back and I'm mentoring more now, and zoom is a wonderful thing because they're all over the country, literally, and it's it's they stayed in touch with their groups, which I encourage them to do. You know their friends, they go to each other's weddings and things like that and that community.
Speaker 3:I can remember just recently actually thinking about you know how smart everyone is and the young people have a fresh pair of eyes. The younger clinicians have a fresh pair of eyes and many a time in Dennis's office, when we were doing the supervision life, someone, mark or someone else would would jump in with a formulation and I go. I never even considered that, you know. And then I thought to myself I'm really surrounded by some really smart people and, as you guys know me well, I'm not afraid to ask a question, you know.
Speaker 3:I kind of I I'm really open to that because I've said that so many times and I love the dialogue and my old mentor, all of us who knew Dick, dick Fleck, who was a wonderful, he was a chaplain and a wonderful man. It was on the team so we started with as a psychologist actually, but he used to he used to always be be referring to the fact that, you know, we have to stay grounded in our own humility and that we don't know as much as no one can be on top of everything, but we learn in a community. And he was also the one that I think instituted the secondary, initial diagnosis. Everybody that came in had some access one diagnosis and then it was unresolved grief. You know, and I've learned that that that's the, that's one of the vulnerabilities is that we have to I always have to me, I speak, I have to manage my grief, whatever it is.
Speaker 3:I agree, that's why I don't treat young people with opiate addictions anymore. I probably 200 of them I lost and the last one broke my heart, because it broke almost every heart in native, as I recall. But you know, it's just, you have to know your limits and being humble and being able to share that my limits with with passionate and smart guys like you and gals and women that we've we've have in our world as well, and I pierce supervision network. It's it's been invaluable. But the students love these podcasts they do, and they look forward to them. So I never said that yeah, I don't think, steve, and I want to have it. I want to just let you know. I send it to all my former students and it's kept me in touch with them and it's kept them in touch with each other because they send it with a big thing, so they all have each other's email.
Steve Bisson:So I know I have downloads in Chicago.
Speaker 3:Did you?
Speaker 5:tell Pat. Did you tell Pat about the royalties, Steve?
Steve Bisson:Oh, there's no royalties yet. They start in 2065. The royalty.
Speaker 3:The royalties is the knowledge that I take away and the friendship that I have with you, fellows.
Speaker 5:That's royalty. Yeah, they are royal.
Steve Bisson:And I think that that's the greatest thing, right, I mean one of the things that I truly enjoy and we were talking about this prior to again you guys have started to. You know, pat gave me new clubs and I finally can hit a golf ball straight and like with enough authority to not play 17 times on a par three. Not bad for lefties, just saying Just exactly. I mean, phil Mickelson will be calling me any second now. You know the royalties that I've had with this great group and this is something that I constantly think about.
Steve Bisson:Is that one of the things that Dennis taught me whether he knows it or not, and this is what you know, we keep on saying about the gifts that give. Dennis is the one who taught me a very, very young, a young time in my career that what I know fits in a thimble, and I got to be open to other ideas and when I was full of piss and vinegar and I was like 2223, I needed someone who grounded me that way, and I think that that's one of the things that happens to right with younger therapists is that you know, well, I've studied CBT. I know everything about CBT. Well, there's a reason why there's about 17 modalities there, buddy, I don't know if that's something that you've experienced too, and I'll start with Andy about having that different point of view just bringing us to the enlightenment, for lack of a better word to I don't know everything.
Speaker 6:Yeah, it's. I'm constantly getting brutal reminders of that by life, finding myself in some random dead end that I didn't say, that I thought was going to go all the way through, but it was a dead end. But yeah, you know it's I. I actually have to be careful with getting too directive, you know. So, trying to keep that listening head on, trying to keep that home humility going and not jumping in with my perceived solutions to things, I've found that, as as I, my patients dwindles which of course it does at times I get more directive and I really need to try to pull, pull that back. But that's when I hear your guys voices in my head about, well, you don't really know, you don't really know. Maybe you should ask another question or maybe you should.
Speaker 6:I learned this from Dennis to we all. We all have. But I learned the silence approach works. Well, sit there if you have to wait it out because it doesn't feel. It feels much longer than it really is just letting that space breathe. A lot of times the the person's coming up with something in that space. I don't think that answered your question but I'm here to answer questions.
Steve Bisson:We're here to get royalties, as I understand.
Speaker 5:I didn't check for 0.5 cents. I think that's a great comment site. That whole idea of like being patient, that's something I've had to learn and you know the Buddha says that the highest form of prayer is patients.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah, it's my entire life. That's probably the single biggest thing that Dennis taught me. Yeah, early on, was the beauty of just silence and being patient and let let, if you can allow the pay. I think Dennis was the one that said it, but it might have been Dick that said we give everybody to two titles here. You know, one is a job description and one is their title. It's the same word patient. When you're in healing mode, you have to be patient and it's, you know, it's.
Speaker 3:When we were talking earlier about vulnerability and powerlessness and all of that in our own lives and with our patients, andy made it talked about the power of gratitude. It's a grounding thing that keeps us grounded in the moment. But I have a quote that I think of constantly a lot from the fabulous ASAP, who wrote all the fables and he is attributed, was saying that gratitude is what makes what you have right now enough and it's, you know, it's. We think about being forward thinking and wanting more of this and more of that, more knowledge and everything, but if I can't be in this present moment, and especially sitting with a, with a client or patient If I can't say that what I have to offer them is enough right now, and if I have a skill set and sometimes it is just keeping my mouth shut and letting them figure it out and what I, what I do, I, we, we bring, I bring energy, and if there's one thing I miss the most about zoom telemedicine as opposed to in the off and I really don't practice in an office anymore is I miss the energy exchange. I have to work very hard in this format here. I know you guys so well that it's just it's there, but for someone especially that I don't know as well as I'd like to, I'm missing a lot.
Speaker 3:I think it takes longer to get a sense of them and get kind of an intuitive sense of how I can be of assistance, and sometimes I used to ask that quite quickly is how do you find that I can help? You takes a little bit longer before I feel it's. They have a sense of that, but most of it is to just be kind. You know the old Buddhist love and kind is just be kind and patient and and show up and be professional. Kindness goes a long way, though when you've been on the other side of health care. You know, a warm blanket in an emergency room and some kindness goes a long way. We provide that in our own ways.
Speaker 3:And I'll say one last thing that every student that will hear this knows I've said, that I probably have said at the every class I taught with the Indies students at Boston College as well, is that when you don't know what to do, in the end Just be kind, because you may be meeting someone you may not know it, but it may be the worst day of their life. And that used to happen in the emergency room a lot and I'm pretty sure Dennis taught me that, so it could have been Dick again. I can't remember. It was such a rich environment I can't remember. As Dick used to say, if you steal from everybody, it's just research, not plagiarism.
Speaker 5:You know I couldn't agree with you more bad. The fancy word we use is therapeutic alliance for this kind of stuff, and yet the basis of healing I'm very convinced after almost 40 years is the is Carl Rogers would say kind of the essence of the personality of the therapist. To some extent, you know it's really it's important that you're kind that your patient, that you allow enough space for that person to come forth. You know that's sitting across from you, so to speak, and I think that the gratitude you're talking about is so interesting, because that's one of the things that goes against capitalism right now. You know it's never enough and I really struggle with you know clients struggle with it and you know you have to decide.
Speaker 5:Alright, is this something that's, you know, as they say, a first world problem? Is it something that's really, you know, a necessity? And you see the stark difference between the community mental health system and private practice, and it's it's, it's, it's fascinating, but it's also you got to keep your yourself in check because you know when I get to the clinic I'm going to be in a state of emergency. I think it's frustrating. Sometimes I just sit back and I say what purpose does this behavior or this attitude serve in the person's life, because they're holding on to it so strongly that it must be something they're awfully afraid to give up, and it's just one of those simple things. But again, you know, the last thing I'll say is that when I talk to my students I always say if you're curious, if you remain curious and humble, you'll never get bored in this profession. And the knowledge base is just expanding. Ever you know so quickly now it's wonderful.
Steve Bisson:You know, one of the things that I want to throw in a little behavioralism here is that people don't repeat behaviors that didn't pay off and even if it didn't pay off the way they wanted, it paid off and somehow and I kind of look and very curious as to what the payoff was for XYZ and what the motivation can be based on that Behavior.
Steve Bisson:You know, I think I've been, I've been a little bit more looking into behavioralism Maybe it's just the times but I also tell people that people don't learn from behaviors, they learn from consequences and and it's important to remember that, you know, you know what's his name skinner had something in mind when he created that operant conditioning system and I want to also mention that it was. You know, we, we have a great Commodery here and I always enjoy that, but you know, it's always nice. I want to note this because it's important. You know, I think all of us have just given lots of flowers to Dennis and I think, dennis, they're well deserved and I want to make sure that I mentioned that, because this is not something that we do just to give a tribute to Dennis, but we all mean it and I also think that the Sincerely of relationships is also very important when you do peer supervision and stuff like that. So thank you for expressing your gratitude, guys.
Speaker 3:This. You know, one thing that happens, that just I've just been aware of it here. It's just revisiting these things keeps it fresh, because you know, I've forgotten most everything. I have to keep relearning and I'm pretty sure it was. You know, one of the great psychiatrists Was dr John shot. That I got the privilege of working with and listening to and reading his Formulations, reading his notes and that impeccable, long, accursive handwriting. And and I think he was the one that taught us that the one question when you don't know what's going on, ask yourself one last question.
Speaker 3:When you're looking at a patient that you're meeting, maybe for the first time, or Is that? Is there any unhealthy gain to them? Steve, you're reminding me of that, but is there an unhealthy gain or payoff for the patient to retain their symptoms? And that is still one of my default settings. Is that when I'm always trying to figure out, you know, the simplest thing Occam's raised, or what's the simplest thing that explains everything Often it's alcohol, you know, or something like that but what? What could be the any unhealthy pattern that is developed in this person's life for them not wanting to give up this?
Speaker 3:You know, fear. There's always a fear of change. Was it, joseph cambell, that the historian that said that, the mythology historian said that the cave you are fear to enter holds the treasures that you seek, and that's kind of be something from so the sous-fils. You know it's so ancient but it's. The truth is that we're supposed to sit with somebody at times and try to help them face their fear, because that is the liberation, and sometimes that is meaning to tell the story. They're even afraid to tell the story and so it's. These are the little nuggets that every time I get together with you fellows, they come back to me and those are the things that sustain my ability to to be useful. I think, the people. That's why I value it so.
Speaker 6:I think I've been telling go ahead, dennis.
Speaker 4:I was thinking that over the years and, pat, you and I had this side conversation a number of years ago where Some of you would come across somebody that you didn't know or remember and this person Was really angry with you and and you had no clue why. And I remember having this discussion that over the years and I appreciate the the feedback that folks have given me today, but over the years there are people that consider me the devil, because part of of my job is not only to help people Come to face to face with their fears, but to understand what those fears mean and to try and let them go. And letting things go is tremendously difficult and Can call up some really significant anger. And and so that's, I think, part of the, the Sort of the underpinning dynamic to to what we do is helping people to figure out what do you need to let go of, and it sort of links to something that, uh, I hadn't thought of it in quite this way but, um, even in people's introduction, recognizing when is it time to stop, when is it time to change?
Speaker 4:Um, when is the time to to stop being an attorney and when is it time to work on being a therapist. When is it time to make a shift to Midlife, make a decision to become a therapist? Um, we go through these challenges of when is it time to stop throughout our lives? And Don't tell me I have to stop because I do not want to stop.
Speaker 6:And I don't like you for telling me that.
Speaker 4:Yes.
Speaker 6:Our, our students are to take it back to the mentorship for a second. They're so in fear of that reaction that and they're so under pressure internally to be right and that that's just that. That's leading them and the client in the wrong direction, where that the humility and curiosity is really the the place to to be, so that the person can really explore, and then you don't have to tell them any.
Speaker 4:And that's where it's important is that you're not telling them anything. You're asking them to ask. Ask themselves is it time to start?
Speaker 6:I've seen that a lot. The the younger people that I work with, the the more severe that issue is for them in in engaging in this work Is. Is that you know they're under so much pressure? It's it's life and death. I mean, the stuff we do is critical, but also if you coming in with that kind of pressure pre-loaded, it makes the job a lot harder. Yeah, so trying to get them in check with their own Feelings in their own passes is the journey we've all been on. We're still on it.
Steve Bisson:But I think it's also built in, and I'll give you the example, and I'm gonna say this on this is true, truly part of what happened to me, um, and it happened to a lot of people I've mentored across Throughout the years, is that if I'm setting and you know, I sat with Dennis when I was doing my internship and then started at a community mental health, I sat with bob at Community mental health a few times One of the things that we go in at school is that you can't be wrong. And now I can't look bad in front of bob or dennis. They're experienced therapists. They're gonna roll their eyes, they're gonna look at me, they're gonna judge me, they're gonna do whatever. And, for the record, dennis and bob and pat and andy have never judged me once. But that's kind of what it brings.
Steve Bisson:A little bit of the education sometimes brings that thought that, like you got to be so formulated Because they're getting ready for their dissertation or they're getting ready for what have you? If I'm wrong, they're gonna call me on it. Well, guess what? We're all wrong most of the time. I coach a bunch of young girls for soccer for the last 10 years and every month, if not more, when I'm coaching them I say, look, if I don't make 10 mistakes in a day, I've had a pretty good day. Um, that it's just life.
Steve Bisson:And I think that part of what you're talking about about being a good mentor, being a good supervisor and even a good teacher Is to say, look, you're gonna be wrong a whole lot, but you're gonna probably be right more often than you're wrong, and that's okay, because that's what we're here for, that's why we're supporting each other and that's why it is life or death sometimes, but most of the time it can be fixed, because the words sorry, I was wrong is not that hard for me. But it was very hard when I was a little young and full of piss and vinegar and I knew again. I knew everything because I was 24 and I knew absolutely everything. And at 48 I'm like my god, was I ignorant? And I still am so much more ignorant than I used to be, and I think that humbling experience is so helpful to remember.
Speaker 3:Yeah, it's a, it's humbling, it's um, it's so important. I think that when I look back at, uh, what were some of the seminal things I learned is that, to the pain that Dennis used to get this one as a student in doing groups together he used to get this funny little look that I learned very quickly meant that I was making big mistakes. I get a little curious. That, I know, is going to be a great session afterwards, but sometimes when I what I remember was it was he that said this and I'm sure you stole it from somebody, dennis, we all steal it, but I was glad to have heard it that, um, you, you, we're not going to learn much from what you know how to do already. You'll only learn a lot from what mistakes you make Somewhere along the line. And it could have been on my other mentor who told me that, um, the there's hardly a greater pain that you can experience as an intelligent person to make the same mistakes over and over, which is what I'm a recovering addict and alcoholic for many decades, and you know that's part of the forgive self, forgiveness of the paradigm. 12 step paradigm is to to forgive yourself for being so breathtakingly imperfect at times. But you can learn a lot from making a mistake only once and learning from it. And that's what I've always tried to encourage people to do, whether they're students or when I used to elect to Andy's class. He's seen this, he's the.
Speaker 3:I'd walk around in the circle there and I wouldn't not let people not be engaged. You know, come on, take a chance. You know you can't be wrong, trust me, you can't be wrong. And they, they would take a chance and I'd say that's a great, of course, and then it'd start something and you could see the relief, but also the moment of oh, that's powerful, that moment when they suddenly realized I have something awesome. And that's when they awakened. And when we've all seen that with patients when all of a sudden the light comes back, always, students, when, when you take someone In your in a position to just be there, when someone starts to come back, when the hope pilot light comes on. If that doesn't get you going, that still keeps me going Is that when you see that, that emanation coming out of people, and Now these ideas, when people can break the fear paradigm.
Speaker 3:You know, um, I was, I used to. I studied many years ago to become an astrophysicist, really, until a dance calculus threw me in a different trajectory. But, um, everything in the universe is energy. It met, you know. You take a little thing that's an atom, you break one of those in half and the city disappears when you release that energy.
Speaker 3:And sometimes, as Dennis was eluding, the power you know, um, is that I have done that, I have been the, the one that they attributed to being the cause of their misery at that moment. But it was simply, and often later on they would say it hurts a lot, I was so overwhelmed by it. But you were right. I know you were right and sometimes you don't get that, but that's part of what we do.
Speaker 3:I had to learn and you fellows taught me a lot is to to not be afraid to to try things and with goods, with good counseling and supervision and groundedness, and in a kind of a spiritual core, meaning knowing myself and liking myself. Um, and then, and knowing there was more to all of this than just this one transaction, I felt that I could be helped, um, I, I felt that I could be helpful and I've only tried to pass that on. And, uh, I also know. One last thing I'm dominating here, forgive me is that, um, I've told every student, because it was told to me, if you're not authentic and taking your own advice Won't have any credibility. You know that bumper sticker take my advice I'm not using. It doesn't fly at all in healthcare and, um, and so I really, you know, and and peers like this keep me honest with that.
Speaker 3:You know some of the more dark moments when I think I've made mistakes, you know even recent years, someone on this panel here would be someone I would talk to and have to be talked off my own ledge of imperfection. I'll just put in a plug for a book you all know well, but if someone hasn't read it out there and they listen to this podcast, it's called, if you're a recovering person, it's called the spirituality of imperfection and it's coming to peace with the fact that we. The only way you learn is by making mistakes. So the only thing we do perfectly is being perfect, and that's hard for some folks to the tyranny of perfectionism in so many ways. So forgive me, I get, I go off.
Speaker 5:I love your stuff, man. It's great I can look in all day. Yeah, yeah, me too.
Speaker 4:One of the truisms that I was taught early on is that the only real mistake we ever make is one we don't recognize.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 5:Yeah, yeah, that's really. You know. I'd like to jump on that because you know both. You're all talking about how we have to let go or letting go is so difficult. It is so difficult because there's such a fear of so. If I don't do that at least one of the fears you know, and I've learned this both professionally and personally so what the hell am I supposed to do if I let that go? You know that's, that's been a go to. You know booses like this. You know like, hey, what's my answer to this? I think I'll take a drink or five, you know.
Speaker 5:I mean, and there's a, there's a lot of that that I see in my family and it's just a matter of trying to figure out. Do we need to replace the, the unhealthy habit with with healthier coping skills? And for some people, I think we do need to help them learn not only that let it. This is destructive, this one's destructive on this side, but can we actually provide some hope that there's some different way of doing things that can can be useful for them and get them to a different place that's going to be much less painful and, you know, much more fulfilling, and you know, an example of this is something that I'm smiling, because I have a very interesting family and I've learned a lot of things.
Speaker 5:One of the things I learned was anticipate the negative, and it's such an interesting thing because, if I was raised Catholic and one of the things is don't worry, don't get too happy, you know things are going to go bad, you're going to suffer at some point soon, and I and I think it's such an interesting thing because, depending on your family, especially if you grow up in a dysfunctional family what you learn is to be scanning, I call it, and you scan for the negative to happen, and if you do that, guess what? You're going to find some. And the problem is, though, it takes you out of the moment. I think, pat, you were talking about this. It takes you out of the moment, and it's so nice when you can just let go and be, and if something happens, then you can deal with it. So let go of that anticipatory kind of urgency or the anxiety. It's fascinating how much room that takes up and how much energy it takes up, and letting it go so it's relieving, but you got to keep on working it.
Speaker 3:Yeah, you're letting go. We see a lot now and I know some of you are advocates as well of the manifestation. You know philosophy, that you know if you're absorbed into something you can manifest it. You know if you're giving off positive energy you will attract positive energy. My old man to Dick told me this, you know. He said I was going to be in a conference in the city and he said OK. He said you want to test this? He said for three city blocks at noon time you go out for your break. For one block, scowl at people. You know just look menacing. First block, give them a thousand mile neutral stare. And for the next block, smile at everybody, nod, say hello. See what you get back. It's stunning we get back. And so I've taken a lot of time to not focus on outcomes that I don't want. Focus on the outcomes that I do want and that's, you know, the manifestation business. That is, putting out energy that then attracts same energy.
Speaker 6:I had a guy just the other day say to me a patient talking about anxiety and he said I can't let go of my anxiety because my anxiety is always right. In other words, what he and what he meant by that is everything I'm worried about. Always happens because I'm smart and I'm thinking ahead and I can see what's coming. And I didn't have a response right away to that because I had never heard it put that way before. But it's what you're talking about, pat, about manifesting. It's about you know what are you putting out there? That's also coming back your way. But he's viewing it as he's excluded himself from the equation and it's all just stuff that's happening to him and he doesn't want to let go because it's his predictive mechanism. He's actually to your point, steve, about what is the payoff. He gets knowledge of the future out of it. He gets actual predictability out of it, which is, I mean, makes some weird sense. But it was just fascinating to hear it that way. I've never heard it like that before.
Steve Bisson:Self-fulfilling prophecy is what that is.
Speaker 3:Yeah, has anyone ever made an 18-inch putt that you knew, as you stood over it, you weren't going to make it.
Steve Bisson:Not yesterday.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Steve Bisson:I think that's what it is. I was going to say, like okay, so when we play golf, it's going to go straight, it's going to go left, it's going to go right, or it's going to hit the water or the sand. There we go. I predicted what's going to happen. Yeah, because you made five predictions, so of course one of them happens to be right and you're going to omit the four that were wrong. You're going to say see, that one was right, I knew it. So that's what I talk about when I tell my clients. I've had a few anxious clients who didn't put it exactly that way, but I said well, if you make 15 predictions, there's a likelihood that one of them will be right and you'll omit what was wrong in order to say look, I can predict the future. So that's how I challenge that personally. But I wanted to jump to something else, because one of the things we kind of like all alluded to is that, as therapists, we're not perfect, and what I also think is important to realize is that I was sitting here prior to the interview, even before you came on. All five of us have stuff going on that are not related to therapy, that are outside of us and not sort of private lives. And Pat started off by saying oh, if I'm distracted, something's going on in my life. I'm not here to put anyone out, so I'm not saying what that is. If you want to share, that's up to him. But I think that we were all talking about that and I think it's important.
Steve Bisson:When I say finding your way through therapy in this podcast, I keep in mind that we need to also lift the veil that therapists are human and that sometimes for me, like you know, I right now I'm good. I, like you know but there's times where I'm like sitting with a client or sitting with my peers and I'm already thinking about, all right, well, this is going to happen, or what have you, I'm probably looking at surgery in the next few weeks myself, and so sometimes like, oh, how am I going to manage this? And I'm like, oh, my God, I'm in my head. I'm no longer doing two things at once. It's not possible, because I'm not paying attention to the person in front of me, whether it's therapy, whether it's a peer, or whether it's just my kids or my life in general. And I think I want to humanize that in a little bit and talk about our powerlessness as therapists, sometimes too.
Speaker 3:The knowledge of who I am isn't up here, it's in the heart. You know there's been so much study and talk about the heart as a morphing, but it's also part of our centeredness and what we are. It's what makes us smile at little babies and kittens and all of the things that people find heartwarming, literally, and I think I've learned over the years. More recently, I've been focusing and trying to get people out of the head, which is where anxiety and fear lives. Forgive me, I'll be in delicate. My term for it is the itty-bitty, shittie committee that keeps rattling around. It's a stress engine. And to get people out of that there's an ingenious thing that forget.
Speaker 3:Who came up with it? It'll come to me, but oh, it was Eckhart Tolle. Tolle, I think he's Swiss, but it's a quick breathing technique and then you basically think about you know and evaporate the last thought and then wait for the next thought to come in your mind. Nothing comes because you've changed it out of the head and into the body and into the heart. It's an ingenious way, but it's just getting out of that perseverating thought.
Speaker 3:So we hear about all of the time where forget. It must have been a Buddhist or a Sufi quote. But worrying about tomorrow or what's in the future doesn't change it. It just changes today for the worse. It takes peace of mind out of today. So these are the techniques. My techniques have to do with breathwork and the energy work and things like that. They can get people kind of oriented to thinking more, being more in their heart and letting that direct action as opposed to the head. But there is, if you're for people that are really smart, sometimes that's an illusion of control is that I know what's going to happen next. There's no point to me saying that, because I know what they're going to say.
Speaker 4:And really there's also a dynamic of control of ourselves and that I do believe very firmly that when we're sitting in therapy and one of the core elements to professionalism as a therapist and a capacity that allows people to stay as therapists is that when you're distracted like that, when you're feeling at your worst, it's when you can sort of buckle down and focus the most and stay with the patient, stay with the client. If you can't do that, you won't last. It's one of those things that I believe is just an absolute requirement, and that's about self-control. It's about recognizing what not only can I do, but what I need to do if I'm going to be able to successfully stay in this kind of practice for any length of time, and that's that is. I think that's also one of the core elements of burnout over time. We do have to put that energy in.
Speaker 5:Dennis, Deng Dennis, I think that whole self-control, the ability to kind of align yourself with what is in front of you, what is the goal, what is my task, what's happening right now and what I talk to a lot of students about it what I've experienced over the years is that you are living your life outside of the therapy room and things happen a lot and, for example, say, you have a relationship and there's tension and conflict in that relationship. You're walking into your therapy office trying to figure out all right, I'm going to center myself, I'm going to calm myself and I'm going to put that off to the side. We have the fancy name of compartmentalization, but that's not an easy thing to do, especially if you get triggered by someone who's talking about the fact that they're struggling with their wife or husband or partner. And so I agree with you with 100%, and it is a discipline that over time you learn, but it does take a lot of energy at times you.
Speaker 6:Compartmentalizing is, I agree, 100% required for the job. But at the same time, trying to be a human being in the room requires for me and I'll get myself here, and I know that not everybody agrees with this dogmatically, but requires to some degree a sharing of yourself. You know that, in order, so often I weave in a story or I will share something about what's going on in my life and I find, nearly 100% of the time, I know which clients can take it, which ones can't, let's just put it that way. But the ones who can and they actually crave it, they actually want to know more about you. And then that presents a whole other roster of issues about what's appropriate and what isn't.
Speaker 6:But I find that that tends to be connective tissue for the relationship, because it's a relationship and we can't, it can't just be, in my estimation, one way, which is how I think we wanted to do it 50 years ago. It wanted it to be on the couch in one way and don't ever look at me and don't ask me any questions. But if we want to be humans and we want to work with other humans and have real relationships, it's got to be more two-way, and so I try to invite that, but it requires quite a bit of finesse to not go over to not, you know, be triggering yourself by interposing your own set of feelings and circumstances. But you do learn how to get better at that.
Speaker 4:Yeah, and that's where, staying focused on that skill regardless of what's going on outside, finding that balance, that's where that's critical.
Speaker 5:Yeah, andy, it's a wonderful point and I think that people can tell if you're being authentic. And the authenticity I think builds the relationship and sharing at times it strengthens the therapeutic lines, the bond, whatever you want to call it that happens in this room, the energy between you. But again, like you said, it requires discretion and discernment and it's really a matter of trying to figure out what can this person, what would benefit this person. I will share if this is going to be helpful for that person and if not, then don't. But it is an interesting question. I agree 100%.
Speaker 3:Sometimes it's at a moment where the patient needs to learn, to be reinforced, that you are just as imperfect as they are. You just have a certain set of skills they don't have. They have their own skills. And there are those moments. I learned it from a student, actually my very first student. I came in, I was working until 11 o'clock at night and I was in the hospital at 7 the next morning. I was a bit of an over-worker in those days, but she looked at me at 7 am and she was heading over the ER and said you look really tired and I get defensive Like I'm not supposed to be tired and everything. And then I finally did it. You're absolutely right, I'm exhausted, and so I'm going to let you go over and send you, come back and if you need some help with this or something, one of the moments I realized was that it was my first student and I was in a more of a trying to orient myself to my persona as a teacher or a mentor, and I've learned that with my patients as well.
Speaker 3:There are times they just need to know, because some of them have asked me I mean, do you ever have problems? I go, oh my God, yeah, but my job is not have you take care of me and you're very good at taking care of other people, so, oh yeah, and pointing out to them that this is not new. It feels very unique to you because you've never experienced it, but this is all too common. The hardest thing to do as a human being is something unique. You know, with 7 billion of us on the planet at this moment in time, everyone goes through a lot of their own stuff. Everyone has to deal with things, and we, I don't know. Compartmentalize is the word I would have used, but I know when I need to leave it on the other side of the door and which is, as I've said, practicing at home is harder, you know, in a home office situation, because everything is just on the other side of the door, it's not a 20 miles away or whatever.
Speaker 3:And which is why sound machines work just as well in the home office as they do everywhere else is just to keep a barrier like a white noise barrier on the other side of it. But I had to learn to become and it was always taught to become human in a way, and if I'm operating with motivated by just trying to be helpful and and utilizing the skills that I've been taught on my boundaries are good, you probably can't make a mistake with a little bit of kind of generic self disclosure. It's like when you decide with a male or female you're going to wear a wedding ring. That's information. You know. We used to think you couldn't share anything. You know that's. That's not the way it's. I don't think the way it's done. Now, and especially with Google and other things, people can find out all kinds of stuff you know about you.
Speaker 4:One of the things I was taught is that you can pretty much share anything, as long as you are ready to deal with the reaction.
Speaker 3:I've heard that before. Great comment From the same source.
Steve Bisson:But I think it's also you know you talked about different types of things that we believe in. I believe in the law of attraction, in the sense that you'll attract the right people who will be able to take that information, and also the discernation, the, the I can't find the word, I'm saying it in French, but being able to tell that, you know, with Dennis today talking about my own stuff is not a good idea. But Pat is okay and Bob is, I don't know, we'll see if I just like put a feeler out there and we get that clinical experience, but we can't have, you know, going back to a little bit of what we talked about earlier, we can't have those feelers without knowledge and being able to make those mistakes. I'm trying to put a little bow on it because I'm looking at the time, we already filled an hour and because we're not busy at all. We all have places to go and things to do.
Steve Bisson:So, again, you know I had what? Another seven questions. We got to two per usual. So you know, guys, you know the new season is going to be starting in January this, this is October, but in January and I'm obviously going to re invite all of you and I want to be respectful of your time, so I want to say again thank you. I should be on the golf links in two weeks. Hopefully we can still play and I'm looking forward to that. But again, thank you for coming to Finding your Way Through Therapy and hope you enjoyed your experience. Chad Mastrangelo is someone that I've known because I worked with his wife for a long time, so I hope you join me for that next interview. This number is available in the United States.