Have you ever wondered about the intricacies of therapy and how it can guide you through the labyrinth of your mind? Buckle up as we engage in a profound discussion with our esteemed guest, Jenny Helms Calvin, who has been at the forefront of mental health advocacy and has carved a niche for herself as a skilled therapist in Kansas. Jenny shares her thrilling journey of managing her group private practice, her impactful work on social media, and her upcoming project which promises to widen access to clients in a coaching setting.
As we traverse the complex terrain of mental health, we emphasize the indispensable role of a therapeutic relationship that fosters a sense of safety and connection. We share our personal experiences and perspectives about therapy, debunk some common misconceptions, and underline that therapy is not a one-size-fits-all solution, but rather a unique journey that plays a pivotal role in overall well-being. The conversation dives deeper as we discuss the importance of therapist-client compatibility and how therapy can serve as a powerful catalyst for self-discovery and personal growth.
We journey further into the realm of trauma therapy, highlighting an array of effective modalities including EMDR, IFS, ketamine, somatic experiencing, and hypnosis, each powerful in their transformative potential. Hear about the mind-body connection, the distinction between therapy and coaching, and the evolving world of virtual mental health education. This episode promises a treasure trove of insights and perspectives that will undoubtedly broaden your understanding of therapy and mental health. Join us for this enlightening episode!
Have you ever wondered about the intricacies of therapy and how it can guide you through the labyrinth of your mind? Buckle up as we engage in a profound discussion with our esteemed guest, Jenny Helms Calvin, who has been at the forefront of mental health advocacy and has carved a niche for herself as a skilled therapist in Kansas. Jenny shares her thrilling journey of managing her group private practice, her impactful work on social media, and her upcoming project which promises to widen access to clients in a coaching setting.
As we traverse the complex terrain of mental health, we emphasize the indispensable role of a therapeutic relationship that fosters a sense of safety and connection. We share our personal experiences and perspectives about therapy, debunk some common misconceptions, and underline that therapy is not a one-size-fits-all solution, but rather a unique journey that plays a pivotal role in overall well-being. The conversation dives deeper as we discuss the importance of therapist-client compatibility and how therapy can serve as a powerful catalyst for self-discovery and personal growth.
We journey further into the realm of trauma therapy, highlighting an array of effective modalities including EMDR, IFS, ketamine, somatic experiencing, and hypnosis, each powerful in their transformative potential. Hear about the mind-body connection, the distinction between therapy and coaching, and the evolving world of virtual mental health education. This episode promises a treasure trove of insights and perspectives that will undoubtedly broaden your understanding of therapy and mental health. Join us for this enlightening episode!
Hi and welcome to Finding your Way Through Therapy. The goal of this podcast is to demystify therapy, what can happen in therapy and the wide array of conversations you can have in and about therapy Through personal experiences. Guests will talk about therapy, their experiences with it and how psychology and therapy are present in many places in their lives, with lots of authenticity and a touch of humor. Here is your host, steve Bisson.
Speaker 2:Merci et j'espère que vous avez eu une bonne action grâce. Thank you, and I hope you had a good Thanksgiving. This is Episode 128, which is the most downloaded episode. If you haven't listened to Episode 127 yet, go back. It's my year in review, kind of like raw discussion about how the year went, what I'm going to talk about in the future Again. I'll say the same thing. When I said on an episode please put a five-star review here and there. For me, that really goes a long way, more than you know. Write me a note if you enjoyed the episode, stuff like that.
Speaker 2:Episode 128 is with Jenny Holmes. She is the most downloaded episode of the season. Just truly. I know why she has a good following, but she's also very interesting. I like her demeanor. So I hope you enjoyed the interview. And here it is. Hi everyone, and welcome to Episode 121.
Speaker 2:I want to say that this is a person that I feel like I'm meeting, somewhat of a celebrity. I was watching her on TikTok during the whole quarantine issues that we had and just followed her stuff. She talks about so many important things about healing yourself trauma, working on difficult relationships, and now I got her on my podcast, which is just an honor for me. Jenny Helms Calvin has, as I said, there's many things that she does. She has one of the biggest practices of private practice therapists in Wichita, kansas. I looked that up. She also has a book which hopefully we'll touch base on, and she's starting a new project in October, so I want you guys to hear about that too. We have limited time, but we certainly will try to get through all of it. Jenny, I can't tell you more than anything that I appreciate you being here and thank you for coming on to Finding your Way Through Therapy.
Speaker 3:Thank you for having me, Steve. I am always glad to be having space and talking about this stuff. It's obviously a passion of mine and I'm just glad to be here, Hold space with you.
Speaker 2:I hope that you know that if this goes, we can't get to all the questions. You'll always be re-invited because, like I said, I really enjoy watching yourself on, watching you on TikTok and what you bring, because it's important to get that message out. So I really appreciate that. And since I know you only like on social media, so to speak, tell me a little more about yourself so that the audience can know you too.
Speaker 3:Yeah, so I wear a lot of hats. I started advocating for mental health and just trying to educate people through social media around the time that the pandemic happened. So, as you were speaking towards you know what I do on TikTok and things like that I was trying to put things out there that wasn't awful horrible relationship advice, like the things that I was seeing. You know, like one of the things I remember watching on social media was a video about people waiting eight hours before they responded to a text message or something along those lines, and when I started to see a lot of that out there, it inspired me to say we need more folks with an education and with even like you know the hard knocks education that could speak to what really I think a lot of folks were seeking, which is trying to heal some of that attachment and relational trauma, and so that sparked that, and I also, and the business owner, I started soma therapy about four and a half years ago and I also acquired new perspectives and other group practice about a year ago. So those two practices and even soma therapy alone, it is the largest group private practice in Kansas, and so I wear a lot of hats doing that and I'm very grateful and honored to do that too Love being able to support my Wichita community, which I originally I'm from Atlanta, and when I first came here I remember thinking I have a two year game plan to just get the heck out of Wichita and had a totally awful attitude about it.
Speaker 3:And so it's funny how now I'm here, 10 years later, and not only have I grown roots but I really come to love and appreciate the community here and really wanted to make an impact. So it's funny, I came here being like when can I get out of Kansas or get the heck out of Dodge? And yeah, here I am and I'm actually really loving it. So I wear that hat as well. And yeah, I also see a couple of clients that I haven't really taken on new psychotherapy clients in a while, and so that really encouraged me to create a project where I could work with a few more people, not doing as deep of trauma work that I do with my clients when I'm one as a therapist, of course, but in the coaching setting and kind of transitioning into ways I could connect with people in that realm.
Speaker 2:Well, you know, I came here in 1999 from Canada for Montreal and I was going to get my masters and get the hell out of Massachusetts. And it's what? 24 years now, close to 25 years, and I'm still here for some reason. So I get where you're coming from. I've been there, done that and I have a few t-shirts. Love all your work. I certainly, I said the biggest in Wichita, kansas and Atlanta. Yeah, it must be hard to leave Atlanta sometimes, right, I mean still have family there. I do.
Speaker 3:Although we're a bit dispersed across the country now I now have family in Seattle and there was some in Texas. They actually moved back to Atlanta but yeah, and in Florida. So we're kind of we're all over the place, but I would say the bulk of my family still still lives in the Southeast, still lives in areas around Atlanta.
Speaker 2:One day I will visit Atlanta. I promise my daughter wants to see that Coca-Cola museum. I'm just going to what she says. I'm sure there's a lot more interesting things in Atlanta than that, but hey, I'm sure that's interesting.
Speaker 3:Well, and if you guys go random, side note, the aquarium is right next door and the aquarium is pretty, pretty neat. So if you all are into that kind of hit up both.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I am definitely an animal lover, so we were talking about that prior to getting on. But you know, one of the standard questions for finding your way through therapy is because we want to educate people around therapy. So the question I ask every guest is have you ever been in therapy?
Speaker 3:Yes, Yep, actually I started therapy as a teen teenager and I would say the first four therapists and it was probably the space I was in, to be honest, mostly I remember thinking were just terrible, they were awful, they were. I remember thinking it was dumb and therapy was dumb and the one smart thing about it was that they had convinced people to come and spend their money on it and I was like that's, that's pretty smart to just, you know, sit around and talk to people and take their money. That's that's pretty great. But as a teen I had an awful perspective until that fifth therapist that I, you know, to be honest, was kind of forced into because I struggled with an eating disorder in high school and that was right after I was my first hospitalization, I found a therapist that I really connected with and she changed my life and, you know, without being too dramatic, I mean in a way saved it because of what I was doing to my body, but also just from a psychological perspective I don't think I'm the same person from from the mental health perspective and how I've been able to navigate my relationships in the world because of that experience and so that was truly transformative for me and I'm a therapist that believes in ongoing work.
Speaker 3:I still go to therapy. I still am working through certain pieces, and in a different phase of my life. That might look different as far as the frequency or intensity of it, but I am currently still in therapy and I am so grateful for the work I'm doing. It's a journey. It really is. Without it being that cliche, it truly is a journey and I have no awareness or shame about sharing that with folks.
Speaker 2:There's no weirdness or shame to be had. I mean, when you go to your medical doctor for your annual physical, you don't go in with your hat on and glasses on, you just walk in. And I consider mental health the exact same thing. One of the pushes I make too, so we're on the same page too, is I have a few clients who are every three months, every six months, and they call me their oil change. I check in if everything is good, and if it's not good, then we stay a little longer and then we go on and we move on with our lives. I think mental health has to be seen as physical health too, and I'll say that until everyone believes me.
Speaker 3:Yeah, for sure, for sure, and I think that there are different depths, that people wanna go with that as well, and I honor that. There's gonna be things that work differently for folks and, I know, for me. I'm a very deep diver, whether for better or worse. Sometimes that is actually a pain in my own ass, but I'm a deep diver and so I'm definitely doing some deep work even right now and seeing how that has been manifesting in my day-to-day and it's pretty crazy to think that that journey. I know there have been several points in my life where I was like I'm done with this, I'm good, everything's good, and then life will happen and something may. I even had a recent trigger about a year and a half ago come out of the blue where I'd had probably a seven-year span of not having that type of anxiety or mental health symptoms arise for myself, and then it just kinda came out of the blue and I was like, all right, there you are, I got some work to do. So here I am on that journey.
Speaker 2:Well, I think that you're right. Mental health treatment is a journey and we go in with different attitudes. Sometimes we have people who need immediacy and some people need deep divers, and that's okay. The other part that I talk about in my podcast and in my life not every therapist is everyone's cup of tea. I'm not everyone's cup of tea, and that's okay. There's nothing wrong with that. There's a bunch of us go to someone else.
Speaker 2:I may not be the right gender, maybe I don't have the right look, maybe I'm triggering, I don't really care, I'll give you someone else, and that's important to know that there's. I'm gonna break a wall. There's not just me and Jenny as therapists in this world. I hear that somewhere, I read that somewhere and we gotta remember that. But I think that people misunderstand also therapy in general. I still have people to this day and I work with first responders that literally tell me I thought you're gonna lie me down on the couch and sit on the top of the couch and ask me you know what my relationship was with my mother? Can you tell me more? A little about what? Do you think people misunderstand about therapy at this point in time like it's 2023, and there's still a lot of misunderstandings?
Speaker 3:Yeah, I think there are still quite a few misunderstandings, especially for folks that are newer to therapy or maybe they've only had certain therapy experiences. It's like you said you're not typically lying down on the couch unless you're doing some very specific modality. However, I think the other piece is a lot of people think that they're just gonna go in and have someone tell them what to do. A lot of people are seeking for their therapist to give them specific guidance and advice, and that's not how therapy works. I think they're also, you know, I think a lot of the times, what I'm seeing is a person who also thinks you may just go in there and validate them long-term, like you're just gonna sit on the couch and say okay, yes or uh-huh, and that's why they and I get it where they're saying you know, why don't I just go grab a glass of wine with a friend?
Speaker 3:right, I get why people and I wanna differentiate that because I'm like, if your therapy is like is the same experience you're getting from talking to a friend, that is also a problem. That is something to consider, and I would even bring that up with your therapist and say I feel like I'm only getting what I get out of having a conversation with a friend, because that dynamic is also not what I would consider good therapy. But I get why people have those misperceptions, right, they're like oh, I should just go to the gym or I should just go grab, you know, a glass of wine with friends or whatever, and that's my therapy. Or my dog is my therapy, and, trust me, I love dogs Of all people. I am a freaking dog lover and probably a little too attached to my dog, which I'm still working on in therapy, but-.
Speaker 2:I was gonna say, I'll give you my card after this and we can talk.
Speaker 3:I know right, I have some investment there. No, I love dogs.
Speaker 3:It is still not the same as therapy, and so I think on the other side of the coin is explaining what therapy could look like and, like you said, I think the first piece of it is feeling that safety and connection with your therapist Right and so if there's anything, whether it's conscious or unconscious, that's creating a feeling of mistrust or you're feeling uneasy around them and after several or I shouldn't say several, but, like you know, two or three sessions, if you're still having that mistrust, not feeling safe, that is something to consider, like maybe they aren't a good fit for whatever reason. Like you said, it could literally be their gender or that they remind you of somebody who was really hurtful or awful or traumatic in your life, or even just their style of therapy just does not jive with you, even in that point of your journey Cause I talked about this with therapists too where it's like I think there are therapists at different parts of the journey too. Some therapists they jive better with like more of the crisis, the acute, the like let's dig in to stuff in it. It'd be more of that acute type of therapy Somewhere. It's just that stabilization period with complex PTSD where it takes a minute to even just get into that process, because a lot of folks with complex PTSD it's not like they're gonna walk in and be able to just get into it and figure it out. And then other folks where if you're taking a deeper dive and you're doing deeper trauma work. They're gonna be a part of that part of your journey and so it's.
Speaker 3:There's a lot of different pieces to what makes a good fit, so I guess I think the encouragement is to keep trying. I also think a good therapist will challenge you from time to time. They're gonna be open-minded to your feedback because you're the expert on you, but they are gonna actually share something. So we've been saying what do you think about this, or this incongruity I'm noticing, right, like I think we tend to be pattern makers and observers, where we kind of see things that the person maybe isn't seeing about themselves or can't acknowledge about themselves yet, for whatever reason. And so I think if you're not learning new things about yourself with your therapist, or finding that you're ever challenged or asking yourself questions that make you see the world differently, that could be a problem, right. And so I think if you're doing some good work, you're gonna be challenging yourself, you're gonna be asking new questions, seeing things a little bit differently, yeah.
Speaker 2:And I think you also have to keep in mind that the therapist has to be a good match also, because sometimes you can be safe, but it's just not driving. So for me, swear words are not anything I'm afraid of. I'll use swear words in therapy, but for I worked with someone who was highly religious and dad did not drive. She liked me but she was like I can't, this is against my belief systems and I'm like, okay, I'll give you someone who doesn't swear and that's fine. There's nothing wrong with that. But I also remind myself that you know I work with first responders, medical people. I worked on a crisis team for several years, so the word fuck is not something I'm really afraid of.
Speaker 2:However, I know I have to also measure my words with certain people, so it's always important to remind ourselves that therapists also keep in mind that who their audience is, so to speak, and I don't know if that happens to you, jenny, but I also keep in mind, like when I work with first responders saying okay, guys, let's talk about cognitive distortion and how this dissonance has caused you. They're not gonna listen to me. I lost them on cognitive distortion. You know, your thought process is fucked, let's work on it. Okay, now they heard me and I don't know if you've had that experience to talking to other therapists or even for yourself, but keeping in mind who you're talking to and matching it, because that's also a job that I think a therapist should be very responsible about.
Speaker 3:Absolutely, if anything. I'm like that's a great point for me from a standpoint of I work with people across different ages and I work with teens, and then I have people in their 60s in my office as well.
Speaker 3:So it's like, if anything, I almost wonder if I curse a little too much with my teens because I mean they're fine with it but I'm like I've not really thought about, like I mean I know they're gonna be exposed to it in different ways but that's a good point. And I think the biggest piece is, if I ever receive feedback from a client that they would prefer something over another thing, that I'm going to be able to respect and honor that, as long as it doesn't like push against my own values, which I typically curse, but it doesn't push against my values to not curse, so I could easily like do that. It'd be more of the like catching myself and them having grace with the fact that I'll be like jig nab it.
Speaker 3:And then like to be honest, I do use a lot of humor in my sessions. I do think that, like I mean, obviously there are sessions that are more serious, of course, but I do think part of this journey is also having a good sense of humor and that's part of perspective, and so I think my clients are pretty used to me tripping over my words and laughing about it later.
Speaker 3:So but, yeah, I think that's a great point, that like even values, because I do know for some people they are gonna be a better fit and they want somebody who can incorporate certain things for them from a religious standpoint, politically, like there's all sorts of things which I know for me, if someone needs it to be very specified, I may not be the best fit because I'm not very specific. And so, yeah, like you said, I think people luckily there are a lot of different therapists out there that come from different belief systems and the big piece is like you observing what's working for you and if you're feeling challenged and if you're, I think one of the funny things I was the I said I don't wanna, I don't wanna de-identify this. I was talking to a person in my life and they were sharing their experience with their therapist and how they were like, oh, I don't know, maybe I need to switch, and I challenged them. I was like I actually think that that's good work that you're doing.
Speaker 3:And I know it's hard, but that you know it being hard or it being tough doesn't necessarily mean the switch. I mean, of course, if you're uncomfortable or unsafe, that's a different story, but I do think part of the journey. There will be times you may not love your therapist's feedback and part of that therapeutic relationship can even be talking about that, and so I always encourage my clients. I'm like I even like preface it in the first session. I'm like there's probably gonna be some point in this process where I piss you off and I wanna encourage you to come to me and at least let me know Like I mean hopefully you feel safe enough to do that. But I'm just letting you know like this stuff is hard and I'm probably gonna piss you off at some point, whether I mean to or not, and I just hope that you feel comfortable enough to tell me.
Speaker 2:I'd say that pissing any client off is probably the best place for change. Frankly, that's just my two cents and for me it's always important. Like I tell my clients, I'm going to work harder than you to get you engaged, but after session three or four you tell me if this still works. But you're going to bring your stuff. It's not always my job to go. Okay, we were talking about trauma. No, you got to bring up your stuff because it might be an immediacy. Oh my God. My partner asked for the force. Well, working on your trauma at that point probably secondary to that and making sure that the client is an active participant. You talked about safety, authenticity. I also think about active participant. If you're not an active participant or you don't feel like you want to actively participate with your therapist, pay attention to that. Maybe that's not the right therapist for you and, again, nothing wrong with that. But keeping all those things in mind is so important.
Speaker 2:And you were talking about language. I coach my 12, 13, 14 year old, my daughter's 13, but they're 12 to 14 in my group. So when I coach, sometimes I go that was believable, isn't it? And isn't that great. And I know I got to be careful of what I say, but in session I mean with adults, most of them I say if a swear is a problem, you let me know, but ultimately I will swear, I will not be trying to show off. Then I'm swearing, it's just that I swear, and most people are receptive to that and definitely talk about that, and I think that it's a good transition. When we talk about safety, authenticity, good match and all that, we need to figure out what helps people heal and I wonder what's been your experience as to what helped people heal? I think we talked about safety. We talked about the authenticity, a good match, anything else that you can think of?
Speaker 3:I think this is my opinion and based on my experiences working with other clinicians them sharing their experiences, my own journey.
Speaker 3:But I want to ask stress is that I'm not the end all be all of sharing what I think is helpful for people in their trauma journeys.
Speaker 3:I just know my experiences and I'm grateful that I've been able to have that for myself and a weird position where I've access to learning about a bunch of other therapists and their clients too, because I work with so many clinicians and we do our team meetings and I literally get to observe and be in a position where I'm just soaking in a lot of that.
Speaker 3:I think the biggest pieces for folks to understand is that they it does what I see being long term change is doing deeper trauma work and the reason I say that is I don't want to dismiss behavioral change and, like you know, brief focus solution work. I think it has a purpose and it serves really well for the acute changes. However, I've seen how people transition where they may heal one part of what they're doing or their behaviors or symptoms and then transition into something later on if they're not really addressing the root of it and they're not really doing the trauma work is what I would call it, at least, and so I'm a big believer that if you're wanting long term change, you've got to do trauma work, and when I say trauma work, I'm talking the deeper EMDR, ifs. I mean, there's different, there's all these different values.
Speaker 2:Can you explain what IFS is? Sorry, you're right.
Speaker 3:Sorry, I'm doing all the ABCs of our, of our fields. You're out for your.
Speaker 2:I am a big fan of acronyms, it makes us easy for me and you chatting this just tells me that you forgot you were on a podcast, which makes me feel even better. Yes, but however, we got to think about the audience. And EMDR I'm a EMDR practitioner. I movement, desensitization and reprocessing and I'm a Thank you and I love that.
Speaker 3:And IFS stands for Internal Family Systems Work, which is like jargon for like doing. I feel like we're given a really brief, simplified overview. It's almost like the parts of us are different responses to things. We call them parts and how you navigate those parts and how our relationship with those parts. So your relationship with your own responses and how you navigate your emotions, and that all becomes what we call your internal family system. Okay, that's my brief overview, very simplified.
Speaker 2:I think it's very simplified, but IFS is definitely worthwhile with trauma work. I interrupted you, but I hope you understand why. Please continue. You were talking about how EMDR and IFS hard work is what helps the most in the trauma work.
Speaker 3:Yes, yes, and again, people are going to have different feelings and thoughts, but I'm really loving the work that I see with ketamine as well.
Speaker 3:I'm excited to see what happens with psychedelics. I don't know a ton with the psychedelics yet, but what I've seen with ketamine has been really eye-opening and transformative. I was definitely a skeptic when I first heard about it. I was like, oh, this is just another thing that the pharma industry is pushing because they're going to make money. But I've actually really seen that be transformative and so, yeah, I would really encourage that work as well, and somatic experiencing I've seen be very transformative. That's not the work that I specifically do as a practitioner, but I've engaged in it and I also believe that that work can be really helpful as well. I've also heard good things about hypnosis, so I'm trying to piece together. I mean it doesn't necessarily mean it has to be one specific type of trauma modality, but I encourage folks to do some sort of trauma work in their journey and to work with somebody who can help them really get to understand themselves and delve into attachment trauma. And, as cliche as it sounds, they're going to be asking about your relationship with your mama.
Speaker 3:They are, and so that's part of it as much as we would like to think that we are independent beings and our brain was not formulated in relationship to other folks. The science says otherwise and Dan Siegel actually has some really really fascinating work on that where he's looked in. I mean, his stuff is so dense, he is so brilliant that some books I won't lie Like I take a minute per page to really just even digest it and I still don't understand it fully.
Speaker 3:But the parts that I do understand he has shown in the neuroscience how our brain literally develops, not just from the genetic standpoint but from our environment, and how we literally have to have access to certain things for our brains to develop in certain ways. So, yes, we're going to ask about your mom Just saying.
Speaker 2:Well, it was interesting. Last week I had a client say why does it always come back to your mom.
Speaker 2:I said because in most cases and again I don't want to make an overgeneralization so in most cases, who raised you? And in many cases it's a mom, and with that you're gonna spend a whole lot of time with your mom. Hence there's gonna be some issues at some point in time that may have affected you at some point in time and that you still carry to this day. Whether it's your communication style Doesn't have to be trauma, but I think that that's why it all comes back to mom. Dads are very important too, and I'm certainly well involved with my kids, but I'm sure I'm traumatizing them in some ways, but at the end of the day, we all are yeah exactly.
Speaker 2:That's just how it is right. But I think it's important to remind people that of course, it's gonna have the most impact. I mean, you can have a partner for many, many years and it's still probably won't equal the time your mom spent with you or your dad in some cases, for many, many years. So it's reminding yourself that that's a truth, a reality and it's okay to talk about that. And you talked about different modalities it's important to think about. I love CBT. I'm a CBT specialist. I went to school for it. I rarely do CBT with my trauma clients because telling them oh, it's all or nothing thinking would probably not go over very well. But even for therapists, reminding ourselves to do humanistic like the Rogerian stuff when you're going to trauma work, which mimics a little bit of EMDR, is so important.
Speaker 3:I don't know what you think of that, but Well, I'm not super well versed in Rogerian, even if I accidentally use it, if that makes sense. So I don't want to speak to that. But I will say what I've observed too, and I love CBT. I feel like CBT is just like a part of the language of therapy in a way Like it's almost like you got to have some CBT of some sort in a way.
Speaker 3:I don't know I could be wrong, somebody be like no, I don't ever use it and I'm like okay, that's impressive, I definitely use it and I think what's because I think it's part of the education of our brains and like from the top down approach that they get.
Speaker 3:It helps people like in their brains when they're starting to do the work, especially if they're very. I'm trying to make sure that this is like the right kind of language that people would understand that aren't therapist, especially if you're just more in your head Like it's a really helpful language. It's a really helpful to go there and for our brains to be able to understand and to kind of catch our thought processes and behaviors and things like that. However, where I see it lack at least in my experience in clients have been when the nervous system gets involved and you could know better, but your nervous system still takes over and so it's one of those hard things where there's that gap of like. When I've seen trauma work in complex PTSD show up in clients, it's that sensation where they're like I know better and when I'm like in my normal like or I guess for some folks they're never there, but like when they're in their safe nervous system state where they're feeling calm and creative and curious they know it.
Speaker 3:It's easy to do CBT in that moment, but if they're activated it's like that system gets overrided or it gets overrided and they go into other places, and that's where I think the deeper work has to happen. At least, that's what I've found and seen. I don't know if you've seen different stuff.
Speaker 2:I agree with wholeheartedly. I think that the work of the EMDR eye movement desensitization is essentially taking the midbrain, which I'm gonna super simplify by saying mostly the amygdala particularly gets hijacked, but the hippocatomtalamus is also in there too. If it gets stuck there, that's when fight, flight or freeze occurs, or fawns sometimes for some people. But I know that's still in the work and the process of research. But I believe in the fawn response also. And then if you don't have that, you work on that. That's great. But if you don't have skill to talk it back on your prefrontal cortex, which where CBT lies, it's gonna stay stuck.
Speaker 2:I've had a couple of people who said I did EMDR but after a few months I was still all screwed up and I said, yeah, because you didn't change your thought process on the prefrontal and the frontal cortex. So you went back to your amygdala because your amygdala's like hi, I'm here, I'm gonna make sure you're in fight, flight or freeze at all times. Thank you very much, have a good day. And so I really have that conversation with my clients, particularly my first responders, who go to do EMDR, and it's revolutionary and it's helpful and I agree with that 100%. No arguments here. But when you don't do cognitive behavioral therapy in any type of therapy, but I think we all do CBT in some way, whether it's DBT or other thought process challenges. I think that we need to help people get through to trauma through EMDR, but give them the skills so that when it hits the frontal cortex it doesn't go in panic mode.
Speaker 3:Yeah, that's very fair. I think it goes both ways right and I think there's so much usefulness out of both and you've got to understand which one you're needing for what part of your journey, like we were kind of describing earlier, where it's like okay if you know, if you're able to think through it, but your system and your body is still not going there. That might be something where, like I need to do more nervous system work. And if you're feeling like you're like you're just kind of at a loss and you don't have the education and you don't have the tools or the ways to talk through things, then I think that's where CBT and DBT play a really critical role. So I yeah, I think that's great that you put those two together and I'm glad you did.
Speaker 3:I just know in my journey I was like very much in my head and so my own bias is like I was like CBT was awesome, except for that was part of my issue was I felt safer being in my head and I was totally disconnected from my body and that's how all the other parts of my life like I was acting out and I'm like, oh, it's cause I'm like not even connected to my body fully, and I know it sounds silly, but that took me a while to figure out and I would imagine you, like first responders, like they've survived by probably disconnecting from their nervous system, because our natural nervous system and the situations they face would just go haywire right. And to do their jobs they have to, and so I'm grateful for the work you do, because they do need someone to help them navigate the balance of that and how to transition and be human outside of work and be the non-humans they have to be in their work. That we're so grateful they are.
Speaker 2:You're way too nice to me. It seems like you're doing the interview now, so I appreciate that. But no, I really like the idea that you talked about the mind-body connection. And then I tell people like, besides therapy, doing mindfulness, exercise, doing relaxation stuff, doing yoga, doing Pilates, doing some exercise is so key to a healthy mental health. And they typically look at me like I have four heads originally and then they realize, oh, I'm more open to it.
Speaker 2:That's why, when you talked about humor, for example, these are a lot of dark humor because of the people I work with and because they use that humor. It opens up those thought processes and it actually helps to have dark humor. So what would be very offensive to a whole lot of people if I repeated half the stuff I hear? They don't realize that that humor really changes the way the brain processes the whole information that happens. And then we add physical activity, whether a walk, and we talked about all that. But literally taking a walk and being mindful during your walk is easy to do, makes it so much easier for your brain to process anything you heard in therapy.
Speaker 3:Absolutely. Yeah, I think we can't forget about the biochemical parts of ourselves too. I feel like that's what you're speaking to, like if someone has anxiety and they're drinking Mountain Dew all day. I have nothing against Mountain Dew, but if you're like constantly on stimulants, something that's going to be triggering your nervous system, and you have anxiety like eh, it's not, you're not really working for yourself, right, you're working against yourself. And I I don't have great metaphors for that outside of like typically I think of it like an athlete, like I mean they could have a garbage diet and still perform out in the field, but they're working for themselves when they have something that's fueling them and like having all those pieces in play. Just like you know, when you think of those professional athletes, I mean I know we're not like doing for that, but like we are biochemical creatures, we have to consider our environment and how we're moving our bodies, what we're putting into it, all of those things.
Speaker 2:You know, I I think that the other part that I talk about body stuff is that you know we were laughing before the interview and having a conversation and you relaxed and I do this with all my guests and then I also might make people forget that there's a mic in front of them and there's a podcast going on, because that's when we can be ourselves. Once we're overly stimulated or over conscious of where we're at, we tend to go and then it's a fight, flight or freeze, and I've had that on a podcast guest a few times and you know I'd be like tell me about yourself, my name is, and I'm like okay, we got to start over, relax, just be you. There's no microphone, it's just me and you. Who cares? If there's two people that listens, that great. I have more than two listeners, I promise. But if 2000 listen, that's even better, and if it's 20,000, even better. But right now it's just me and you, there's no one else. And that's really what you know. Even in therapy, sometimes like giving that space. We talked about Rogerian therapy and Rogerian therapy is just like repeating what the person just said in different words so they can continue on that thought process. And to me and I'm simplifying it again, obviously but it really opens up a person like wow, hey, you listened to me, you heard what I said and you're giving me the space again, and sometimes that's just key to letting people have that space.
Speaker 2:Or if you make an observation, as you said earlier, I have a client who said I'm very comfortable with blank and I'm going to keep the information vague later on but I truly don't feel safe with that person. How can you be comfortable? How can you be comfortable but not feel safe? It's they don't work together. What did? And then they're like you caught me and I'm like that's okay. But that's also the science, sense of observation that we develop with a lot of the work that we do. And it's so important because clients, when they speak out loud, they realize that their unfiltered thought process needs to be reeled in. And it's not in the way that we judge it or anything. We just make observation and make them realize oh, maybe I am feeling unsafe at this person or that person or whatever.
Speaker 3:Yeah, it's like a way of them getting like. I use IFS like probably my own, not official version of it sometimes, but I feel like it's like a way of getting people to understand and just verbalize those parts of themselves. And I've even noticed that with myself where it's like I could feel this internal friction and anxiety, and then I'm able to like talk about it and if someone reflects it back to me and kind of helps me really hold space for those parts of myself, then I understand it better and then it's like, weirdly, all that tension and friction goes away Right. And, like you said, like for anybody, like if we're just not in our safe, calm, curious part of our nervous system, we do we like go blank. Like you were saying that earlier and I was like, oh yeah, if I'm like an invite or fly, I'm like what is my name?
Speaker 3:Right, like I've been in conversations where I'm like, how in the world am I forgetting all of the things? And it's been something because, like I wanted to kind of learn how to not like fully fly a plane, but like have some parts of it so I feel comfortable enough to like if I ever needed to land it, just because my my husband's learning how to fly a plane right now and I'm trying to like feel more comfortable. And my first thought was I was like, oh my gosh, if I get freaking activated, I'm just going to like I'm totally free and it's not. It's so funny because I could know all the things and so I have so much empathy for that. Because, yes, for any of us, we're going to have our different responses where, you know, if we get triggered, you can't even remember our own name.
Speaker 2:And it's normalizing it and making sure that people understand that. That's part of it. And you know, to be fair just to also clarify for an audience, which I wanted to do earlier but trauma is not necessarily PTSD, but PTSD is trauma. And very important to explain that to people because we can have traumas that don't turn out to be PTSD, but PTSD is always based on trauma. So that's a big differentiation.
Speaker 2:Being a therapist who has been involved with clients who have been through trauma and they say I've got PTSD, I like okay, wait, before we jump to that conclusion, let's explore it a little more. And sometimes you can, like I, tell people we can keep it as an acute stress disorder if we can like really address it immediately. And that's a great thing to do. And I don't want to go into too much jargon again. I feel like we're falling in that jargon again. But it's important to be able to kind of like find that balance and when we think about trauma and that type of work, we really think about therapists. But I know that you are also going into coaching and one of the things that I always kind of like want to remind the audience is what's the difference between therapy and coaching. I'm a coach too. I do therapy also, but what's the difference between the two?
Speaker 3:So I'm glad you brought that up, because that is a common question and I would feel free to interject if you have more to share on this subject as well.
Speaker 2:I will, don't worry.
Speaker 3:My okay, great, Good, wonderful, I would say. Based on my experience and how I address it, I don't do the deeper trauma work in coaching. Like, for me, coaching is more about educating folks, about empowering them, about going over certain topics and things that I'm like. These are the themes and the things that I see come up in this area and let's talk about them and have education around them. And it is. There will be, at times, a bit more directive than therapy work. Like therapy work Typically, you're really going to be like we are not telling you what to do. Ever, really hardly ever, I should say Asterisk.
Speaker 2:But coaching is more directed. We're back afterwards. I do that. Yay, it's all good.
Speaker 3:It was. It's a. I mean, I think you can. You can challenge people and say, here are your options right, or you could share things like that. But I think you're at least as far as my therapy work, I do. I never tell people you have to do this, unless it's like a boundary, of like like I've had to do that sometimes with my eating disorder clients, of like you've got to like they need a higher level of care, things like that Right. Like if it's safety, I will become directive. Does that make sense? If it's safety, if I'm like hey, we got abuse, abuse, I will call that out.
Speaker 3:That means that with coaching, I think it could be a little bit more directive and educational. It's going to be focused on more of the surface level and if you're delving into trauma work, that's where you really need to be working with somebody who is licensed and in a therapeutic setting, and I would encourage that I don't and I'm not here to say people can't do some version of like moderate trauma work, I think in a in outside of therapy, but I think it's safest to do it in a therapeutic setting with a licensed professional with trauma experience.
Speaker 2:I remember I agree with you 100%. I think that what you're saying, too, is what I someone once said on this podcast and I wish I could remember who it was, because I like to give them credit and they're like you know, therapy is a lot of like, like retrospective. How can we deal with that? Or how is it affecting you today, where coaching tends to be, you know, in the future? What can you do now? What are you going to do to set your goals in the future and boundaries? So I always liked that definition too. I think that takes in a lot of what you said about educating and empowering, while also looking future, because you're not sitting there in coaching going All right. Well, let me tell me more about your relationship with your mom, because that's not exactly what coaching is.
Speaker 3:So yeah, yeah, you're not getting like as Specified and going deep one-on-one with someone doing that like it's. It's more of a like I will say, and coaching. I have been like, hey, we're gonna look at this to see like what you're doing moving forward, but it's not gonna be the same as like we're gonna go back and like get to the roots of that and and heal that specifically and use this modality.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I remember one of my Professors used to draw a circle and what therapy is is to dig deep into the brain, where Coaching is a lot more like superficial, but also moving you forward. And he's like and friends will just keep you, not even like they'll let you go in Depth, but they're gonna, not gonna fix you. And you know I joke around with my clients. You're like oh, we could be friends. I'm like well, first of all, I'm a paid friend, so you know, no offense number two, remember that if you, we are friends, that means you got to listen to my shit too. And they're like yeah, oh, no, I don't want to do that.
Speaker 3:I'm like are you ready for that?
Speaker 2:Exactly and usually most people are like oh, I don't want to hear that. I'm like, okay, so then we'll continue doing this will be fine. It's a good way to set the boundary, but also to explain in a laughing matter. So people really like relate a hundred percent, 100%.
Speaker 3:That doesn't mean I mean I really I mean I'm grateful that I do tend to like Love and enjoy most parts of my client and.
Speaker 3:I'm not like, not a human where I don't have parts I don't love, like we all are, but I will say like I mean you do get to have that like specific insight into that person's life and get to see all the cool parts that other people Don't get to see sometimes. Right, that being said, we are not friends, but I do. It's funny how much I'm like I do care for them. I feel like I get to see the cool things I even sometimes their friends don't get to see about them and see.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you give me anyway it's cool.
Speaker 3:Yeah, for sure, for sure.
Speaker 2:I, I always.
Speaker 2:I was an honor and I think we I don't know how you do it I share a little bit of my life, but never to make it about me, but to put it parallel to their what they're talking about, and they're like, yeah, okay, that makes sense. Or if I have another friend or whatever who went through, and people are like, oh, that's good that you share that. And I'm like, again, we're not friends and I don't make it about me, which is the other part about therapy. That's very important. If the therapist sits there. Let me tell you about my crap today. You probably don't have a good therapist.
Speaker 3:Yeah, you should charge them. I'll get your money back, but be like all right.
Speaker 2:I'd like the credit card. Thank you very much, but as we we get close to the hour, I know that you wanted to talk about your new project and I'm very excited to hear about it. Can you tell me more about your virtual coaching group?
Speaker 3:Yeah, so we're actually getting that started really soon. I think it's next week or the week after. I have to talk to my gals and helping you with that. But, um, we are doing a virtual group and the reason I wanted to do it that way was I found that there were a lot of folks that were like Is there a way I can work on this thing or do you have resources for this thing? And over time, I just found that there were so many folks and a lot of people were actually asking to work with me too, and Not that we're gonna be able to do therapy work, but I wanted to give them something where they could meet weekly, we could talk about these different themes and topics, and what my hope is is that they will take that and they will do deeper work in the ways that Work for them, like we can go over the the surface level, we can go into these topics in a safe community and you can go and do that deeper work, and that it's affordable. That's the other piece too. If I'm able to do it in this group platform, it becomes affordable, because I know that that can be a barrier for folks I know in our community as well.
Speaker 3:Just getting into somebody right now has been a barrier for folks.
Speaker 3:There's a lot of underserved communities in the mental health space and so, again, it's not to replace therapy but to be a part of that journey and education and helping people along the way and that way they can know specifically, like when they're looking for resources, what do I look for, how do I get it, where could, where do I need to delve deeper, because I think half the battle for folks is even just recognizing the spots that they're needing work in.
Speaker 3:Like we all have our blind spots and as we go through stuff we're like, oh, that isn't normal, like no one talks about it. So until it's really part of that discussion and giving people resources Along the way that they can, they can use to help them in these different areas of their life, specifically the areas we're gonna be talking about our relationships. We're gonna be talking about money. We're gonna be talking about sex. We're gonna be talking about all those spicy, different topics that can have their own, like baggage and taboo and even Addiction. I say addiction, but I use that word broadly to say anything in our lives that is causing dysfunction in other areas, so that can even be things like being addicted to our phones, which, you know, not all of us want to talk about, but let's talk about it.
Speaker 2:What are you so?
Speaker 3:we're gonna be covering all those different topics Exactly. He's holding up his phone.
Speaker 2:Oh, it's on YouTube.
Speaker 3:Like 12 inches from ourselves, right. We're like, oh hey, here it is, um, no, but just to speak to that, so yeah, so we're gonna be delving into all those different areas and Just wanted to give a safe educational space for that and you know I look at your, your social media stuff.
Speaker 2:It definitely shows all that education, that work that you want to do with them. So you're the perfect person for that number one. Number two I love group work for coaching because then it brings people to oh, wait a minute, laura's going through it too, johnny's going through it, or whatever. I mean I'm making up names here and they might also bring up something like you're, you're there sitting as a group leader, go yeah, I'm gonna say this, and then someone brings up a better point. Well, you know, go shit. No, shut up now.
Speaker 2:And it's a good to have that coaching from a group perspective, in my opinion, I.
Speaker 3:Agree, because you and even sometimes people will share something that maybe your brain wasn't ready to quite share. You know what I mean, and not just like from a like you feel shame, like that's one part, but the other part is sometimes there have been things that have been unlocked for me that I'm like I didn't even know. I struggled with that until you said it out loud and I was like, ooh, I feel attacked. What the kids say these days right. I feel, I feel like that was about me and it's, it's so crazy how that works.
Speaker 3:And so you're right, like in the group setting. You set yourself up for that environment when you can see things that your brain is not letting you see and you can take the shame, the stigma, you can learn from other people and being like oh, that's perspective, it's, it's great.
Speaker 2:And you know the I'm a, I'm 48. I'm allowed to call people kids at this point in my life, so just for the record. But I really like the fact that you also talked about, you know, being able to talk about addiction, because for me, addiction is something that people like, oh, it's opioids or it's meth or no. Oh, you talked about this. You talked about sex. Sex can be an addiction and people like, oh, sex addiction. I'm like, think about it as people who have this obsession about being with a partner to that could also be part of an addiction.
Speaker 3:She was.
Speaker 2:So I tell people we're all addicted to something. For me right now is coffee, which is really okay, that's the greatest. But I'm addicted to coffee and definitely trying to break this one with my phone Because it's so important. But, jenny, as we wrap up here, I want to know how can people reach. I'm gonna put all the links in the show notes, but how can people reach you, especially for that group, because I think that's gonna be important.
Speaker 3:They could reach me by looking at any of my social media channels. It's at Jenny and Holmes. J E N N Y A N N H E L M, as in monkey, yes okay. So, that's a good way to yeah, it's a good way to check out my style.
Speaker 2:So Instagram tick tock Facebook, yep, yeah although I will say my ex.
Speaker 3:Oh, you know what I'm terrible with, with tweeting, so just just keeping it real. So you're not gonna see a lot of content there, but I would say, if you're, if you're really wanting to connect with me, I'd say Instagram and tiktok are the best platforms for that and I'm gonna. I'm gonna say that.
Speaker 2:I've been watching you on tiktok and I'll joke around with people so that they are forced at least go see it. She makes the most amazing coral when she turns around and looks serious, puts up her sleeves. I'm gonna tell you stuff that you need to hear, so this is my tease for tiktok, tiktok, tiktok dance moves.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I got a pointing down.
Speaker 2:You're, so you got that oh you're so awesome. I really like that. I like there's days where you turn around I'm like is she what's wrong? What's going on in her life?
Speaker 3:But no.
Speaker 2:Yes, I wasn't drawn as a kid, let's come in back.
Speaker 3:If you could be a good therapist, you got to be into drama, that's what I said, oh man.
Speaker 2:Yes, but, jenny, I can't tell you, like I said, maybe my fanboy is the diminished a little bit, because it's truly nice to talk to a colleague, someone who has the same passion and caring for her clients. So thank you so much for that. I still will be a fan, don't get me wrong, but hopefully one day you come back to the show if you want to, because you're gonna always have a space here and Please people, go, go to all those social medias. She's she's gonna start that coaching group in October. She'll be great and I mean that she did not pay me to say this. This is truly Something that I enjoy. I really enjoyed Jenny. She has great insight and I really appreciate. So thank you for coming. Thank you, steve. Well, this concludes episode 128.
Speaker 3:Thank you, jenny. How's?
Speaker 2:I hope you enjoyed the most downloaded episode. Next week it will be my favorite episode of the week episode. Next week it will be my favorite episode and Brad Mastrangelo hey, I got his name right will be the Favorite episode of the season. So join me then.
Speaker 1:Please like, subscribe and follow this podcast on your favorite platform. A glowing review is always helpful and, as a reminder, this podcast is for informational, educational and entertainment purposes only. If you're struggling with a mental health or substance abuse issue, please reach out to a professional counselor for consultation. If you are in a mental health crisis, call 988 for assistance. This number is available in the United States.