Hi and welcome to Finding your Way Through Therapy. The goal of this podcast is to demystify therapy, what can happen in therapy and the wide array of conversations you can have in and about therapy Through personal experiences. Guests will talk about therapy, their experiences with it and how psychology and therapy are present in many places in their lives, with lots of authenticity and a touch of humor. Here is your host, steve Bisson.
Speaker 2:S'il vous plaît, rassisez-vous, arrêtez d'applaudir. Please sit down, stop applauding. And welcome to Episode 130,. This is the most downloaded episode of the year. If you haven't listened to Episode 129, it was the favorite episode of the year with Brad Mastrangelo, so please go back and listen to it. But Episode 130 was with Gordon Brewer. Gordon Brewer was the most downloaded by far this year and I know I've tried to aggregate because of the later shows and all that.
Speaker 2:But Gordon won and I hope that you enjoyed the interview as much as I did. Well, hi everyone and welcome to Episode 99, or actually 98, I don't want to jump too fast 98, of Finding your Way Through Therapy. I'm so excited to have someone that I was connected with, with a former guest of mine and friend, lisa Mustard, and Gordon, someone that I got the privilege to be on his podcast not too long ago, and there's so many great opportunities that Gordon and I discussed and we're going to definitely talk about it during this broadcast. But I also really really appreciate Gordon as a human being, because I've heard of stuff obviously before this, but you guys don't know and I'm going to ask some of those questions, but I just like Gordon's story in general. He offers a slew of services, but it's hard to find a genuine human being sometimes, and just being a human, you're always human doing and he's a human being, and so I want to introduce someone I consider a friend at this point.
Speaker 3:Gordon Brewer.
Speaker 2:Gordon, welcome to Finding your Way Through Therapy.
Speaker 3:Thanks, Steve. It's my pleasure to be here. I've been looking forward to this.
Speaker 2:I can't tell you how excited I was to be on your podcast and now you're on mine and I feel like we've got to know each other for the last two or three months. But maybe my audience doesn't know who you are, so how about you introduce yourself?
Speaker 3:Okay, well, there's always kind of not sure where to start, but my name's Gordon and I'm like Steve, I'm a therapist, I'm also in private practice and I'm located in Tennessee. You might be able to detect a little bit of something in my voice that maybe gives that away. I'm in Northeast Tennessee and a place called Kingsport and we're right in the heart of the Appalachian Mountains, as I like to say. So it's a small area, a small metropolitan area called the Tri-Cities and right where Tennessee and Virginia and Kentucky and North Carolina kind of come together, up there in that little corner. But yeah, so I've been a therapist, I'm actually a licensed marriage and family therapist been in this field for probably oh gosh, let's see, it's almost Cali just now dawned on me at least 22 years. So that's been doing it a while. But I grew up in North Carolina.
Speaker 3:As I mentioned, I'm in private practice.
Speaker 3:I have a practice called Kingsport Counseling Associates and kind of my niche with my practice is I work with, do a lot of work with couples, but also with men struggling with sex addictions and pornography addictions and those kinds of things, and so that's a big part of what I do. And then also, as Steve mentioned, I have a podcast. I've actually got two podcasts now. One is called the Practice of Therapy and it's really geared more towards therapists and helping them navigate kind of the business side of running a practice and all of those kinds of things. And then my most recent podcast that I started last year is called the Kindness and Compassion podcast, and really that podcast is about exploring the intersection of psychology, spirituality, religion and those kinds of things and how we can live into more kindness and compassion in our lives and really my whole goal with that podcast was to help us kind of navigate, moving away from all of the polarization we're all sensing and feeling in the world here lately. So that was my purpose in starting that and that's an ongoing project for me.
Speaker 2:So yeah, Well, I haven't listened to the second one as much as I should, so I'll say that honestly. But I also have listened to your podcast for a while, really enjoyed it and obviously gives a lot to therapists. But I also would argue with my audience that I think a non-therapist can get some stuff out of that, because I've heard many people say their stories. Avail, who was on the show last episode, is someone that was also on Gordon's podcast, and you don't need to be a therapist to truly hear the compassion and a true story, as you probably have heard from mine anyway. But just wanted to mention that too, because I think it's not exclusively therapists, probably more geared towards therapists, but nonetheless wanted to give you that you have a broad stroke in regards to your reach.
Speaker 3:Right Thanks.
Speaker 2:I also love the fact that you work with addiction, especially behavioral addiction, and I know that sometimes can be a controversial subject, but I do believe there is such a thing. Personally, I think that I've come from a school of, and you can give me your feedback on that. I think we're all addicted to something. Some of it is healthy, some of it is not so healthy, but, as any addiction, when it goes beyond health, that's when the problem lies. What are your thoughts about addiction in general, not only about behavioral, but just in general?
Speaker 3:Yeah. So it's a great question, steve. In that, and working with the clients that I work with, I always tell them that I don't really have really a way to measure if somebody's addicted to something or not. I think that's something each person has to determine for themselves. But what you can see is that if there's a pattern of being involved in any behavior that interferes in their life in such a way that it's disruptive to their relationships, to their work, to their life and that sort of thing, it's probably something to look at.
Speaker 3:Also, if it's something that becomes a preoccupation where somebody is constantly thinking about how are they going to get the next hit, next high or whatever you want to call it, with those behaviors, it's probably something to look at and something you probably need to explore. As I like to say, if it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, it's probably a duck, and so most of us have known people in our lives that have been addicted in different ways, whether it's alcohol, drugs, gambling, sex. Addiction is one that has become, I guess, in more recent years. More people are becoming aware of it, particularly with the advent of high-speed internet and updating myself because I realize there are probably listeners out there that that's always been a thing, but when that came into being, our access to things like pornography to gambling, I would say and any of those kinds of behavioral, kind of addictions are much easier to get your hands on, and so it makes it much more of a problem for people.
Speaker 2:Dating yourself would be calling it 2400 bod or something like that that would be really dating yourself. But if we're talking about high-speed internet or DSL. I think we're still a little on this side versus the old school.
Speaker 3:Yeah, right, Right, yeah well.
Speaker 2:I do think that that's a good point and I like how you said. It's our own measure that we got to think about, not what other people say and I certainly see that in a whole lot of people and you do seem very passionate about your therapy. I think you have a lot of stuff you're passionate about. I think that when you talked about how do I introduce myself, I have the same issue sometimes, but let's start about the basics, because I think I go back to what started you in all this is being in therapy. So how did you become a therapist? How was it the process of becoming a therapist for you?
Speaker 3:Yeah, so that's a great question. You know what's when I think about my story? I grew up in a home where my dad was a pastor, and so my whole life kind of centered around in my formative years, around going to church and being with all of that sort of thing. But something along the way I always had this kind of tug to want to help people, and it was probably reinforced in that when I was helpful at home or was the good boy, so to speak, that got reinforced in some way. But when I was growing up I'd always wanted to be a doctor because I thought that was how I could get what I needed in life. But when I got into college and started down that path, chemistry kicked my butt and so I didn't do well in chemistry and in order to be a doctor, that's something that you need to be able to do well, and so I kind of pivoted. And what I think what caused me to pivot was is there was again I'm dating myself there was a movie that came out in the early 80s called Ordinary People and it had Donald Sutherland and Mary Tyler Moore, and Timothy Hutton was in it and Elizabeth McGovern the people that yeah, she was very young then.
Speaker 3:But anyway, the premise of the story was a family that had been affected by the death of one of their children and Conrad, played by Timothy Hutton, was struggling with a lot of depression and had a suicide attempt and that sort of thing. And there was a scene in there where the psychiatrist played by Judd Hirsch had kind of a breakthrough moment with him in a therapy session. He was going through a crisis, that sort of thing. If you haven't seen the movie, I could recommend it because it's really a great case study on just family dynamics and what it. Of course you've got to take it in the context of the culture of that time, which has changed a great deal. There was a lot more mental health stigma and that sort of thing then that there is now. But anyway, it was watching that scene of.
Speaker 3:I can remember sitting in the theater and watching that and seeing that breakthrough moment with Judd Hirsch and Timothy Hutton and I was thinking, oh, that's really cool, I'd love to do that.
Speaker 3:And so that was over a Christmas break and I went back to, got back to college and I changed my major from pre-med to psychology and so that got my interest going into this whole field and getting back to your question, though, steve around therapy is that I had gone through some struggles during college and there was a college professor I did some therapy with he was one of our psychology professors and that sort of thing and it really kind of inspired me. Okay, he's getting me to think about things in a different way, or beginning to see myself in a different way, and so that's really what kind of latched me on to following this field. Plus, I think as you've probably experienced, steve, and talking with other therapists I think the reason most of us get into this field is because we're working on our own issues and we've had a measure of success with that and then just really feel compelled to help others with the same kinds of issues.
Speaker 2:I think I've shared this before in the podcast, but I think it's relevant to share again. I remember one of my first classes. I went to McGill University and it was a huge auditorium. There was about 1,100 of us not even a joke. And the professor in front says how many of you are here to better yourself and learn about your own psychology? And a bunch of hands came up and the next question was how many of you are willing to work on your own issues? Not so many hands went up.
Speaker 1:Well, for those who kept your hands down.
Speaker 2:You're gonna be terrible therapists. You should give up right away. And I remember like F you man, I mean like what the hell are you saying? But it is absolutely true that a lot of people go into this field just to work on themselves also, and it was nice to have a there. Like you said, you had a professor that was your, help you out and did some therapy with you. Other than that, have you ever been in therapy?
Speaker 3:Oh, yes, in fact I have a regular therapist now that I meet with regularly and I think absolutely and even people that I supervise that I do supervision with people that are going becoming licensed and that's one of the things I push with them is to get into your own therapy, because one of the things that I've learned over the years is that in working with people in therapy, people come to us and they hand us some pretty heavy stuff.
Speaker 3:There's just a lot of you know, just people becoming vulnerable with us and being able to share part of their lives, particularly people that have maybe gone through some significant trauma and that sort of thing. And if you're a human being at all, that affects you and I think you have to be able to process that and what it brings up for yourself into doing your own therapy. Plus, you know, as you've already kind of alluded to, we're human beings and we have our own lives and we have our own struggles with things. And just because I wear the hat of a therapist doesn't mean I handle it well all the time and so I know a lot of stuff about it, but when it's affecting me, it's a whole different thing.
Speaker 2:I think that sometimes what I've realized is that you can do this through supervision, but sometimes it's your own therapy. That's much more important, because if someone says something XYZ and I'm like I get lost in my head about it which does not mean I'm not listening to them, but I'm not listening as much as I probably should I'm like all right, gotta bring that up to Joe, because Joe's gonna help me Because.
Speaker 2:Joe's gonna be like oh yeah, that's because of XYZ, or whatever, I think that it's important, for I remember the psychoanalytic version is that you have to be in therapy in order to become a psychoanalytic therapist. I truly believe all therapists, or all people who work in this field, and I mean counselors, social workers, coaches frankly, I think we all need to be in therapy to just process some of the stuff we hear.
Speaker 3:Right, right, yeah, absolutely. And I think there's this phenomenon called vicarious trauma that people experience, and when you've I've worked with a lot of military veterans and they tell us some horrific stories of what they were having to do and things that were going on, and so that's tough stuff to hear and to process, and so I think you have to be able to process it and unpack it. And the way I like to think of therapy is you take what you're experiencing in your internal world and you try to put words to it and put it on the outside, and when you do that, especially with the help of someone else, you're able to see it in a different light. It doesn't necessarily change what has happened to you, but how you experience what has happened to you begins to change, and so I think that's kind of how therapy works it's that we have a different understanding of our own story.
Speaker 2:Agree. I think that the other part that is very important in therapy in my opinion is you talked about the mind, body, spirit- I think, while I'm not putting down any other medical professions, I think we're one of the few who actually think about all three and integrating that and that could be freaking, exhausting. I don't know about what you feel, but I think that that's part of it too.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I must have most of the days when I've had a full caseload of clients, although I've quit way back here in recent years. But I'll go home. I'm pretty exhausted and being able to be present with people and to be able to talk with them about the things that are weighing heavy on them and being able to kind of help them, kind of look at all the different pieces of it. I think about therapy is, I tell my clients as well, our lives are kind of like an onion. You've got different layers to it and when you start peeling back the layers, the more you get towards the core sometimes it's the harder. Those are the harder things to deal with.
Speaker 2:And I also think that you need, like I, go back. I think I'm gonna say this to every podcast now. One of my favorite things is you can't solve a problem that was created by the same mind. And that's not my saying it was someone else's, but I always think about that. So, like, if you have a problem and you're trying to solve it and it's a problem that you may have created in your own head, how are you gonna solve it on your own?
Speaker 3:Right, yeah, you need someone else's point of view. Uh-huh very true very true.
Speaker 2:And I think that that leads to the life lessons we learn as a therapist. I think we started talking about that. But I like to hear more about your life lessons that you learn as a therapist, besides vicarious trauma, among other things.
Speaker 3:Oh yeah, so I think one of the biggest. There are a couple of things that come to mind when I think about this question. One is teaching ourselves how to be more in the present. Now that seems kind of cliche maybe to say that, but one of the things that happens, I think, is that we can tend to be either preoccupied with the future or preoccupied with the past. When people are preoccupied with the past, that's usually a place of feeling maybe more depressed, going through the all I wish I would have, I wish I could have, I should have done this, I should have done that. I like to say if we listen to that too much, we just get should on. And so the other side of that and that's really when you see, when I see people that are depressed or working through their depression, most of the time, when you begin to look at what their internal world is, it's a preoccupation with the past, with regrets and things that they wish they would have done differently. The opposite of that is a preoccupation with the future, of being oh, what if this happens, or what if that bad thing happens? And being worried a lot, and so that's a place of anxiety, of being just kind of living in their head in that particular place. Now I think we should always plan for the future and I think it's good I did anticipate the future and try to be prepared for that. But you can't live there in your mind, you can't stay there and really the reality is the only thing that we've got control of is right now, in what we're doing in this particular moment. So helping people learn how to ground themselves in the present, and that's one of the things that I've had to do for myself.
Speaker 3:One story I like to tell people is I remember when my daughter was in college, and where she was in college was about four hours away, and then, when she would you know, she'd call or text and say I'm heading home, and so she'd start on her trip. I would visually in my head start imagining where she was driving and the traffic and all that sort of thing, and then it would blow up to oh, she's been in a car accident and this terrible thing has happened. And you know the next thing, I'm in my head just thinking about a funeral and all this kind of crazy stuff that just snowballed into this big thing, because I was worried about something that could happen or might happen or all of that sort of thing. And so what dawned on me one day? Okay, gordon, you got to kind of practice what you preach. You got to get in the present moment and shift your thoughts and look at what you're just dealing with in front of you.
Speaker 3:It's not that I'm still not concerned about my daughter's trip home and all of that sort of thing, but I had no control over that, and so I think one of the things that I've learned is that is not to spend too much time on things that are totally out of our control. I can't control what's happened in the past. I can learn from that, and I can get a lot of life lessons out of things that I've done and mistakes that I've made and all of those kinds of things from the past. And, you know, learn from that. But really the only thing that I have control over is the present, and so I think that's it's a wonderful concept. It's easier said than done, but I think the more we can, and I think it takes practice. I think we have to practice learning how to ground ourselves, learning how to be mindful, being able to be aware and self-aware. It takes time, yeah.
Speaker 2:So many things came to mind when you were talking about that, and the first thing that I want to put in is that you got a practice of therapy. Is that what you're talking about? So a little plug there, yeah.
Speaker 3:Yes, yes.
Speaker 2:But I also thought about you know one of the things that you know. I grew up Catholic. I went for a while where I was an atheist and nowadays I'm a Buddhist, which makes me visit all religions and I really appreciate learning about a whole lot, and one of the things that Buddha talks about is that the past is gone. You can't do anything about it, the future hasn't happened. You don't know what's going to happen. All you have is the present. It's a very Buddhist thought process and a lot of religions actually embrace that. So, just for the record, when I say Buddhist, yes, that's the Buddha saying that, but you can find that in pretty much any religion, and I think that spirituality really helped me get through some of the difficult times in my life.
Speaker 3:Right, right. And so that's a great segue into this kind of other thought that I had when you were talking about what I've learned from my own work as a therapist and also just being a therapy, and that is the importance of finding meaning in your life. There's a pretty well-known book that a lot of people are familiar with and it was written by Victor Frankel, and Victor Frankel was you mentioned psychoanalytic stuff, which we think of Freud when we think of psychoanalysis, but Victor Frankel was a contemporary of Sigmund Freud and Carl Jung and some of those kind of fathers of modern psychology, but he was also he was Jewish and he was in a German concentration camp during the Holocaust and he saw most of his friends, the majority of his family and all of that just kind of annihilated in front of him. But he came out of that really as a whole person and really created that, and that's where he got the title of the book Man's Search for Meaning. How do you take something that's so senseless and then still find meaning in your life? And so he goes into that, and so one of the things that I, one of his quotes that I like, and I'm going to paraphrase this not to get it exactly. But he said that if we don't have meaning in our lives, we will substitute pleasure, and pleasure usually ends up being just kind of empty and void. It's not to say that we don't have to do things that are pleasurable I think we all all need that but I think, more importantly, we need to seek meaning in our life and there are any number of ways to do that through our spirituality, through religious practices, but also through our work.
Speaker 3:I know that for me, my work as a therapist is very meaningful through our interactions with family. I think for those of us that have kids, being able to see our kids grow up and take part in their school activities and all those kinds of things it brings meaning to us. And then just also just in general, just being helpful to others. I mean, I think about volunteer work and that sort of thing. One of the one of the most meaningful things I've ever done in my life was I did some, went on some mission trips to the country of Honduras and started out with just going with habitat for humanity and that sort of thing, and it really really was life changing for me in that, in that sense, and so, yeah, I would say that's really what has led me to be where I am today, but it was through those, those meaningful activities, that that really brings a whole lot more fullness to life.
Speaker 2:And I think I go back to Victor Frankl's book, which I really appreciate also and I'm gonna paraphrase also. But one of my favorite parts is that when he talks about who survived the camps that weren't, obviously, you know, hurt, and what he said, it was the people who still had hope, Hope that tomorrow might be a better day, maybe the world be liberated. And those who had lost hope, or the ones who didn't even need to be going anywhere, they would die in the camp because they just had no meaning in their life.
Speaker 2:So, I'm paraphrasing a little bit of what you said, but I thought that that was one of the things is that if you don't have something meaningful in your life and you don't have hope, you die.
Speaker 3:Right, right, yeah, and I think the thing about it too is one of the things that we can do and I've learned this again through my own therapy and just work with others and that sort of thing is that if you think about the times when we are really struggling in life whether it's struggling with depression, anxiety, addictions you know, fill in the blank of what we're struggling with. If you think about it, it's very much a very self-focused kind of thing. We get preoccupied with what's going on within ourselves. But if we can begin to kind of turn that outward and really focus on others and focus on helping others and, as you said, hope, when to me, when I think about hope, for some reason I draw the connection that that's more about others, that's more about being connected to others and that there I'm not lost within myself I think that's when people really begin to change.
Speaker 2:I think it's a good place to kind of like talk about other stuff, including, you know, connected to others. I was able to go to some training and they talked about that. The most protective factor you can have is a connection to others. This connection to others makes you, you know, we're social animals. Whether we like it or not, we're animals number one. But we're also social animals, so isolation is probably our worst enemy. I know I find meaning in relationships with others. How are other ways that we can find happiness in our life? I mean, this is something that is kind of like a constant search for some of our clients. I'm sure you know that.
Speaker 3:Oh yeah, oh yeah, there was something I heard recently is that two of the biggest factors that determine happiness are there's several factors, but one was to be in good physical health. People that are in good physical health are generally happier, and also they have several, several different places in which they experience community, whether it's through their work or through, you know, groups of friends, through its, you know, through religious organizations or any of those kinds of things where a person experiences community and they're not isolated, those are the people that are happiest. The other other other factor, too, that I think goes with that is learning how to have some control over your own emotions. I think it's. You know, the one way that that's referred to is emotional intelligence. In other words, when you're feeling something negative inside yourself and knowing what to do with that, and learning to learning somehow or another to sit with some of the discomfort, you know there's not a, there's not a day that anybody experiences where they don't experience some level of anxiety over something. You know whether it's the trial, whether it's like it was for me this morning, but I got behind this person that was driving incredibly slow and I was in a hurry to get to the office and so yeah, so, yeah, that's, there's a little bit of anxiety and it comes out through anger. And you know, I didn't fortunately I didn't road rage over this person, but you know that, again, those are, those are the little things that happen to us every day. And then there's just all the other stuff that can happen throughout our day and in our lives that can create discomfort.
Speaker 3:And one of the things, just on a more kind of brain science level, is that that part of our brain that protects us, called the amygdala, and it's the whole purpose is to keep us safe and keep us alive.
Speaker 3:And it's that, it's that part of our brain that reacts to things in such a way, you know, if we, if we were to have a snake crawl out in front of us or something, or might be a spider in the room or something, we would jump into action and not really even have to think about it.
Speaker 3:And that's because that part of our brain, the amygdala, perceives that and what can happen. Particularly if people have gone through a lot of trauma or been through traumatic situations, that part of our brain can become very active and very, almost hypervigilant. And so part of being happy isn't learning how to override that, because a lot of times there are situations in our life that are not dangerous but they're just difficult, but that that amygdala, that part of our brain that's there to keep us alive, can't distinguish between the two and it also doesn't respond to language in any particular way, and so you have to learn to kind of override that. I didn't mean to get too far off on a tangent there around brain science, but I think the more we can become aware of that, the more we could be mindful of those kinds of things. It creates the path for greater happiness, I think.
Speaker 2:Well, let's start off with a simple one. I can talk about neurological processes forever, and I think that it's important for people to understand brain chemistry, so I don't think you went on a different path. I think it's a path that most people have to understand. I explained a little bit of. Most of our reactions come from the midbrain. You talked about the amygdala. There's a lot of a midbrain reaction that we have and I tell people it's creating a road that goes to the higher functioning brain, the frontal cortex and the cortex in general, and that takes time.
Speaker 2:I tell people you got to start off. It's like a road. I always give that analogy to roads. So you start off with some gravel and then maybe you pound it down, put some sand, maybe get some concrete, put some cement over it. Maybe it's only one lane, maybe it's a little bigger, but in time, as you work on it and work on it, it becomes a six lanes superhighway and people are like oh, that's great, I said, but just remember, a superhighway is not maintained just by being six lanes.
Speaker 2:You got to go in there, you got to work on it. If there's a pothole, you got to go after the pothole. And if you really think about brain science and believe me, we can talk about this anytime you want, gordon, okay, yeah, but I think it's the part of psychology that people have to understand. It's like it's our brains that are like that. We're not afraid of the saber-toothed tiger anymore, but our anxiety, our fears, our depression, whatever, it's the same thing as the saber-toothed tiger. What is your saber-toothed?
Speaker 2:tiger is a good question to ask. So I can go on and on about sympathetic versus parasympathetic also.
Speaker 3:Oh yeah, oh yeah, and I think that's the road understanding all of that and understanding how we each experience it within our bodies, because it's a physiological reaction to things.
Speaker 3:And so, yeah, the other thing too which this is a way to think about it that I saw a quote the other day which was a good quote, and I think I saved it somewhere and I can't remember it but when people become start to become happy, they learn how to not react to things as much, but learn how to respond to things. Because, guess what, we're all going to be handed stuff that's going to be difficult, you know whether it's, you know, some jerk on the road or whatever it might be. Those things are going to be. We're going to be handed those things throughout our life. And so the difference is is not to just react to that which usually gets us in trouble, but to learn how to respond, how to slow things down, how to learn, like you said, learn how to have better control of that midbrain which takes practice. It's not something we can just flip a switch and do. It just takes time to be able to do those things.
Speaker 2:And our mid brain made us survive all these years. Oh yeah, oh, you know, I tell people that if you try to shut down your mid brain, you're basically gonna die. We need it right.
Speaker 3:Right, absolutely.
Speaker 2:So, and I agree with you, I think that you know we we've changed the way we deal with stuff and Acknowledging the emotions I think you know when you talk about you know finding happiness is that. You know. I give this as an example. I'm happy to see you, gordon, you know that. But you know there's also like a little nervousness. I want to make sure that's a good interview. People are gonna pay attention to it and there's a fear that maybe I'll get off topic or you'll be. You'll be off topic and we're not gonna get to what when. So there's three emotions for what started off as happiness and they're all valid. It's just making sure that you also Gravitate towards the one that's gonna be much more successful for you. It's easy to go down the road of fear. It's an. It's an easy way to go down a road of anger. It's a lot harder to get out of that road and try to find which one is gonna be most successful for you.
Speaker 3:Right, right, yeah, we're all, as you said earlier, we're all human beings and you know we're all gonna make mistakes and we're gonna, you know, maybe come out Looking not so great all the time, but the truth of the matter is we can recover that through that, and I think the the other thing, too, is just speaking of a key to happiness is is finding those people in your life that you can be truly vulnerable with. Is another key there? Because we all have Things within ourselves that we're afraid of, that were maybe ashamed of Also. Those things that bring us joy, those things that bring us happiness, all of those things are things that we need to be able to share with people in a deeper way. And when, when people can begin to do that, that's where, in my mind, where healing occurs and where we really can find peace, contentment and happiness in life.
Speaker 2:I Don't know about you, gordon, but do you know anyone who made it on their own completely?
Speaker 3:No, I do not. I think we have to. We have to have others. I mean, that's how we're, that's how we're created. We're all we're created. As you said earlier, we're created as social beings, were social creatures, and we have to have others. And to think that you can absolutely do it by yourself is crazy. That's not a very good mental health term, but it's just yeah, you get, you got to have others.
Speaker 2:Well, I once believed I can do it on my own and my therapist was a lot worse than crazy. He said even worse and I met and I respected him tremendously. I don't think I get stuck on semantics per se. I just think it's important for people to understand sometimes the spirit of words versus the literal meaning of words. I think crazy fits really perfectly here.
Speaker 2:Yeah you get too hung up on. You know semantics, I think we're. You're making yourself anxious, you're making yourself depressed and I think that if you need clarification, ask it, and sometimes people do mean it in the raga Tory term. But I think the key to happiness is if someone says, oh, that's crazy, and you personalize that maybe before you personalize it. Hey, gordon, did you mean I was crazy? And learning to be happy with like asking for clarifications if you're not sure what the person means.
Speaker 3:Right, right yeah absolutely.
Speaker 2:I think that that's part of. Is there any other part of Finding happiness in our lives that you think is very important for people to know?
Speaker 3:Well, I think, I think I'm pretty well covered it. I can remember. I'll tell. Let me tell a little little quick story here that is maybe gets to kind of when it really kind of clicked for me.
Speaker 3:One thing that we have to look at as people's Development. I'm I'm gonna say I'm an old fart now because I'm past the age of 50, but I remember in my in my mid 40s being with a group of friends and we were just at there, we were had gotten together, two families, our kids were still kind of little and we were sitting around in their living room. One of one of my friends is a great musician. He had his guitar and he was singing and we were just cutting up and the kids had like their little school instruments and stuff and we were just cutting up and laughing and singing and you know just, it was a great time and I could remember during that moment Just becoming filled with emotion of just thinking, okay, it doesn't get any better than this, something that simple of just really being recognizing.
Speaker 3:Okay, I'm in this moment, we're happy, there's a lot of joy here, all of that sort of thing, and and it just dawned on me, this is it, whatever else I pursue in life. Nothing is gonna get any better than this simple little thing of finding joy in, in these simple things, and so I think that's that's one of the things that I, you know I would want to share with people is find, find the little things that you can find joy in. You know, because there's pursuing or living in the in the FOMO zone or fear of missing out zone is Is it is really gonna that that can just tear you apart in the long run.
Speaker 2:Yeah, the part I remember seeing this Recently too is that you know there are moments of joy. So your moments of happiness, they don't involve usually a camera, they don't usually involve a selfie. It's just being in the moment. That's the stuff that you want to relive and relive. And I remind people of that because even if they go to social media and they say, well, you know, johnny's looking like he's having a good time or Jane's having a good time, that's a at best 15 second clip of their 24 hours.
Speaker 2:If that, and Learning to be okay with just like, I'd rather be with my friends, and I've my best friends in the world that I've had for 35 years. I cannot recall the last time we took a picture together, but I do remember good times we had, you know, talking on the phone two weeks ago or Mm-hmm spending time together on Christmas, but there's no pictures of that. It's just being in the moment. I think I remind people that when you only have the moment, it's a true joy and happiness because you're not worrying about who will know about it. You won't know about all that.
Speaker 2:Well, right, right, totally agree yeah which brings us to another moment of happiness, and for me is this podcast. I love podcasting and I think that I Want to be able to be I don't think I've mentioned it anywhere until now and I think maybe, if people are, you know, caught it. I put on maybe one or two social media posts and they're gonna see it on my logo, but I'm very proud to say that you invited me, and I gladly accepted, to be part of the Cycraft Network.
Speaker 3:Yes, yes, yeah, I'm so.
Speaker 3:I was so glad to get to, for us to meet in that context, steve, because you know, one of the things that you know, after some encouragement of people, I've been podcasting now since 2017 and One one of the things is that that I've learned is there's a lot of us in kind of this mental health, self-help, you know, sophical whatever you want to call it kind of zone where we're doing podcasts, and one of the things that I wanted To be able to do was for us to do exactly what we've been talking about already is form a sense of community and to be able to Kind of bond around this, these common themes that we we do, and support each other through that.
Speaker 3:And so I started the Cycraft Network last year and the the whole purpose of it is is really for us as Podcasters that are part of this network. Number one is that we're we're in very similar niches or similar types of podcasts around. You know, psychology, self-help, mental health, even entrepreneurial kinds of things are all within this kind of genre, and to be there for us to, number one, have community, but also to be able to cross, promote, support each other and to you know, I'll say, is to be able to make our podcasting more profitable in the sense because it takes, takes time and money to put these together and To be able to make it worthwhile for ourselves of creating you know, creating maybe just degree a career out of it.
Speaker 2:And I think that the other part that I really like and is meeting the other podcasters. We have our happy hour Hour. I can't remember exactly what we call it Hours.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I got a happy hour.
Speaker 2:Because it's turning into a happy hour, I'm not opposed to that, yeah because it's nice to have other people who are in the same position as we are.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and.
Speaker 2:I think that for me, podcasting as much as we have an audience at times can be very isolating, and Having this group has been such a gift to me and I don't know how you feel about that, but that's just kind of you know. Yeah, there's all the other parts that you talked about. Absolutely, I love, my love doing this. I would also love to monetize it, and I don't think there's any shame in saying that.
Speaker 2:I mean right. I think we need to be able to say that. But for me it's really about the community in the sense of community that I truly get from our group.
Speaker 3:Right, right, yeah, and that's that's what we're there to do is just support each other in that and and to be able to Kind of spread the word about our podcast.
Speaker 2:And I think that it might be a good time for me to say how about you spread the word about your podcast right now?
Speaker 3:Okay, so, yeah, so if people, first of all, if you want to find out about the other podcasts in the network, just simply go to psychcraftnetworkcom and you we've got a you know the website up there with links and ways for you to get to all the different podcasts in there. We've I think we're up to eight now people fit eight different podcasts in the network and so that's uh, that that's exciting. I hope to grow it some more. I don't want it to get it to be this huge behemoth by any means. But yeah, just really looking forward to the, to the future of this.
Speaker 3:If you're interested in the practice of therapy, which is a Website that's really and the podcast is devoted to Really resources both on the business and clinical sides of things, or therapists or those of us in this kind of mental health space of helping people with that, you can find that at just practiceoftherapycom and then my, my other podcast, the kindness and compassion podcast, is. You can find that at kindness and compassioncom, and so all of those, those are the different places you can find us. But if you go to the sitecraft network Dot com, you can find those two, two podcasts plus all the other great ones that are part of the network and.
Speaker 2:I certainly recommend anyone to go there and follow everyone, because it's you know, it's just a passion of mine to Listen to other people and learn from them, because the day I stopped learning is probably the day I won't be of this world anymore. So, I want to keep on learning, and just a great group of people obviously.
Speaker 3:Yeah, well, yeah, and and Steve, I'll say I'm grateful to you for starting your podcast, because I think what you give voice to is something that is very much needed, particularly in this particular era where, in season of life, or whatever you want to call it, I think more and more people are are really learning the value of therapy, but also, you know, the the whole idea of our mental health is no longer Stigmatized, and I think you're helping people with that.
Speaker 2:The day that everyone sees Mental health counselor the same way they see doctors or medical doctors that they see on a regular basis. It's the day I've said mission accomplished. Yeah, I don't think it's gonna be anytime soon, but if it is anytime soon, I have a hundred other projects I can come up with, so hopefully.
Speaker 3:Oh yeah, we can do it. I'll say, it will yeah.
Speaker 2:Well, gordon, I just want to thank you again for everything that, and I was gonna say do you have anything else you want to add?
Speaker 3:well, no, I don't really, Steve. I think if you know if a person's interested in really doing some self-improvement and to really Create change in their life, find a, find a therapist that you can talk with and find Someone that you can have a good fit with I mean, not every therapist is for everybody and I think you have to find the right person that can help you, that can that you can Create a connection with. I think it would absolutely make a huge difference in your life.
Speaker 2:I'm not everyone's cup of tea, and that's okay. Gordon is not everyone's cup of tea, and that's okay. And hopefully you do find a cup of tea and I think that there is someone somewhere that you're gonna connect with right right. Gordon, thank you so much again for the time and I know I'll see you very soon.
Speaker 3:Yeah, thank you, steve. Thanks for having me on your show.
Speaker 2:Thank you. Well, this concludes episode 130, gordon Brewer. Thank you so much. Hope everyone enjoyed it and I hope that you join me next week from my favorite episode of the year and I have a soft spot for Gina Mofa. She has a great book. I've given it to many clients and a lot of them have found it very helpful With the grief of the loss in her life. So Gina Mofa is the favorite episode of the year. She'll be on next week and I hope you join me then.
Speaker 1:Please like, subscribe and follow this podcast on your favorite platform. A glowing review is always helpful and, as a reminder, this podcast is for informational, educational and entertainment purposes only. If you're struggling with a mental health or substance abuse issue, please reach out to a professional counselor for consultation. If you are in a mental health crisis, call 988 for assistance. This number is available in the United States.