E.40 The Ukrainian Invasion And It's Impact on Service Vets with Jay Ball and Katelyn Dehey

In this very important episode, returning guests Jay Ball and Katelyn Dehey discuss the impact of the War in Ukraine and how it affects so many people. We discuss the images of children crossing the border with no food, who will win, and the possible experiences of refugees based on past wars in the world. We also look at the mental health impact this will have on those fleeing the war torn country.
In addition, we discuss the impact on Veterans, which many first responders are, which can be from a call to go back to serve, to PTSD symptoms, as well as how family members are coping with this stress, including possible call-ups to serve if the war escalades.
We also have a great discussion on diversion courts, particularly Veterans courts, and how it can help veterans find their way.
I need to share the anecdotal story: on the first day we were suppose to record, Jay though it was 7PM. He had read the time of 17:00 but only saw the 7. So we had to reschedule.

You can contact Jay at benevolentguardianconsulting@gmail.com with any support you might need in regards to Mental Health First Aid, Veterans Court, or any other reasons you feel would help you, including veterans and first responders who may need a friendly chat. 

Katelyn works at Westboro Behavioral Health and will be the lead for the first and last responders component of the program. 

Transcript

Steve Bisson: 0:01

Hi and welcome to finding your way through therapy. I am your host, Steve Bisson. I'm an author and mental health counselor. Are you curious about therapy? Do you feel there is a lot of mystery about there? Do you wonder what your therapist is doing and why? The goal of this podcast is to make therapy and psychology accessible to all by using real language and straight to the point discussions. This podcast wants to remind you to take care of your mental health, just like you would your physical health. therapy should not be intimidating. It should be a great way to better help. I will demystify what happens in counseling, discuss topics related to mental health and discussions you can have what your thoughts, I also want to introduce psychology in everyday life. As I feel most of our lives are enmeshed in psychology. I want to introduce the subtle and not so subtle way psychology plays a factor in our lives. It will be my own mix of thoughts as well as special guests. So join me on this discovery of therapy and psychology. Hi, and welcome to season four. Yes, season four of finding your way through therapy. I am Steve D. So on Episode 40, returning guests Sergeant J ball from the Framingham Massachusetts Police Department. Jay has been on every single season very happy to have him back. And Caitlin de he, She's the lead clinician at Westboro behavioral health services. She's also a returning guest very happy to have her back to it was interesting couple of weeks ago is like, Hey, what are we going to talk about in this podcast episode. And J, who happens to also be someone who served in the army for several years wanted to talk about the current situation in Ukraine and and in a political way, he was very clear about that. And he wanted to talk about the effects that it has on veterans and veterans issues, as well as people who are possibly going up there and wanted to really just have a chat about that. And Jay doesn't typically talk to me about any of this stuff. And I think that he's really been affected by it. So I'm like, Hey, let's go with it. So very happy to do that. Caitlyn obviously agreed. And Caitlin is someone who has a lot of insight because a lot of first responders also are former military personnel. So I think that what she's going to bring into is going to be very interesting. And obviously, I have my point of view. So I'll bring that into. So please enjoy the episode. Hi, everyone. Welcome to Episode 40. Yes, Season Four first episode that's going to be it's, I can't believe I got four seasons out of this. I'm having again, two returning guests is usually the first episode of every season. And last time Caitlin was so popular, we brought Caitlin back, Caitlin D, and J ball and Sergeant J ball. And we've talked about a lot of first responders stuff. And Jay, I got to start off by kind of busting your balls a little bit. You were the most popular episode in the first season. And since then, nothing new yet. And I'm a little concerned about that. Because you know, you're here to like drive my ratings, and it's ain't working.

Jay Ball: 2:56

Much like the rest of my life. I peaked too early. So hopefully it goes up from here, though.

Steve Bisson: 3:02

I'll tell you that I'm expecting like, you're the highest download overall, you're still hard. I'll give you that. But you know, after that, it's just been going down. So Caitlin i, we brought you on, I thought you're gonna bring us up to I'm hoping you can bring up some

Katelyn Dehey: 3:14

See what I can do.

Steve Bisson: 3:18

I know it started off kind of laughing. But we're about I want to say 16 days roughly after the start of Russia invading Ukraine. And Jay, who served in the Army, not the Air Force. This is an old joke between me and him. One day, we'll explain it. I know that this has been so triggering. I've seen it like I see first responders and obviously first responders have a lot of military background. And it's been very hard for a whole lot of them. And you know, when I was talking to Jane Caitlin, right before we started bouncing ideas for this episode, Jay said, No, I want to talk more about you know, the experience of veterans, military personnel people came back and how that affects them. So you know, Jay, I know that I know a little bit about your background around that. But can you share a little more about what you know, I said it, but how long did you serve? And it did you go anywhere and stuff like that?

Jay Ball: 4:17

Yeah, I was in the Army active duty wise, from 95 to 99. I was lucky. I remember when I signed up, I was lucky enough to get a good score on the ASVAB. I got to choose my job. I was stupid. I chose artillery. Because they showed you these cool videos. This thing's blown up everywhere. And you're like at 18 You're like, I want to do that. So I got to pick my job. And then they said, Geez, you can pick your duty station too. And they said, you can pick this, this, this or this. And one of the choices was Germany. And in my mind, being a eight year old kid from Lawrence, Massachusetts, going to Jeremy was a no brainer. I was like, Sign me up. So I went to Fort Sill right off, went to basic training at Fort Sill. And then right after that, I went to A place called Schweinfurt, Germany leadwood barracks, which is in the outskirts of Bavaria, an hour and a half south east of Frankfurt.

Steve Bisson: 5:09

And while you were out there, did you end up going to any like combat zones of any kind?

Jay Ball: 5:16

Well, according to the United States government wasn't a combat zone. But in 1995, they signed the date peace accord. There was a war going on in the Balkans, specifically Bosnia Herzegovina. And I want it like when we decided to play in this, we were talking with leaving politics out of this. So two things, one, I'm leaving politics out of this and to this in my own thoughts and beliefs, not based off my employment. So I just want to get that out of the way women currently, so went to Bosnia. It was a war torn country at the time, since 1996. war torn country there was the fighting it stopped, because they signed that piece of paper in Dayton, Ohio, but there was still the warring factions, I was in a place called Doughboy DOB OJ, and they call that the Doughboy fingers because what happened was, there was zone of separation, and much like, and I don't want to compare it to Korea, but much like Korea was an area that the warring factions were separated, and I could name the warring factions off, and you would think, Oh, geez, well, these people may have been at fault or these people probably not at fault, but everyone was at fault in my opinion, you know, with the Serbians, Croats, and groups of Muslims and, and that's how they were broken up. And it's funny because stereotypically, I'm not going to point out a group but one person will point out a group and say, Oh, geez, they must have been the aggressors. And that group was probably the most peaceful, and I'm talking about the Muslims, the most peaceful. They were farmers, would they actually well, we were stationed at Camp Valhalla, I was stationed with the North Pole brigade, which we were a small faction of Americans with the Swedes, the Danes, the Finns, down the street with the polish and the Lithuanians were small, like I said, small contingency of Americans and we were on a peacekeeping mission. We fell under the United Nations not as the blue helmets that you would see but we fell into the United Nations and NATO when we first got there we were called S for we're a stabilizing force while we were there we did something which was called a red flag to i Four which was an implementation for so we stabilized the peace accord made sure the warring factions stayed away from each other. We were taught phrase study li put some I'll never forget it. Stop around Shoop. That was basically the what we learned. And we also had a row card, which many people military on the standard row is ROV rules of engagement, don't fire unless fired upon. And we were there for peacekeeping with a little skirmishes here and there. Yes. Did a lot of people want to see us there? No, in my opinion at the time, especially the Serbians. I remember crossing into Slavonski Brod from into Bosnia into slansky Brown, one of the first places in Bosnia and little kids, which I appeared and Steve Gnosis would appeared seem like they're given us the peace side. But without, you know, obviously, one on the one on TV, I can't show you. But it's two fingers that are up and it looks like that. But the third finger, the ring finger, I would say on the right hand is slightly extended. And it had to do with support for the Serbians. And once again, I'm not picking sides. Just from my experiences what happened coming in? You saw the atrocities and Brcko the massacres and says so Branca saw snipers, and Sarajevo. And we were coming in to make sure that that piece that was signed in 95, like I said, was there in 96. And 97, was stabilized, made sure weapons caches were destroyed. But we were going into a country that was in war for years. And you could say years going back into the early 90s. But if you want to go into history and study a little bit of history on it, you can go all the way back to and you can look it up prince Lazar back in the seventh century. And then obviously, you know how to world war one started. Same area with the Austro Hungarian empire. So this is an area of the world that has been a powder keg for years and people can blame it on Nationalities people can blame it on religion, but at the end of the day, we were there and we were there to keep the peace. So that's the the Semi long story and then go on to the Bosnia

Steve Bisson: 9:39

Oh no, I needed the long story. And you know, I was laughing when you said you were in the blue helmets. You know, that's Canadians usually. And I know that you you always strive to be Canadian after all, so that's why I think you mentioned that

Jay Ball: 9:51

no blue helmet on me though. No, never.

Steve Bisson: 9:56

None on mine either. I've never served so You know, Caitlin, I want to throw you in a little bit here and talk about, you know, like, this is stuff that when you work with veterans, you work with first responders. And obviously, you work with both. Yeah, give you give you a lot of credit. Jay, thank you for sharing so much. I've known you for 21 years, but I've never asked you once for these stories. And I appreciate No, it's knowing even more I knew about the three fingers. I knew about that. But, Caitlin, when you talk to veterans to first responders, do you get that kind of sense of like, I almost feel like unfinished business, basically from them on a general basis.

Katelyn Dehey: 10:32

I think it depends on which, you know, which place they went, which were they participated in? I think there's different levels of that. I think, particularly in the, you know, the war days was in, I think that or, you know, that war torn area, I think a lot of the veterans that were over there have similar feelings about unfinished business and, and are having a lot of like feelings brought up right now about that, because of what's happening in Russia and Ukraine. And, you know, that's bringing up things for a lot of people, not just veterans and that population, you know, people who maybe have, like, come to the US from war torn countries themselves, and saw their family members being taken by soldiers have invaded an invading country. You know, that's, and now they're here as adults in the US. And this is bringing up a lot of stuff for them as well, I think it's a really big thing that's happening and having a big impact on a lot of people right now.

Steve Bisson: 11:41

And I know that for me, one of my biggest pet peeves recently is been hearing that this is the first invasion since the Second World War, hell no. And I'm just sick of hearing that. I personally know that my guys are really affected by that. Because I'm like, yeah, we can name several others, between 1939 and 2021. And I think that, that there's a lot of this stuff that really triggers a lot of people. And one of the things that comes to mind, Jay, if you want to continue talking about your experience in Bosnia, that's great. But the first thing that comes to mind staying more like 2021 ish 2022 is how much my military guys were kind of screwed up about when we left Afghanistan. And how we did it. And again, there's no politics here. There's no of us. This is not my lmhc on the on the board, same thing for you Caitlin's, not your you're not a sergeant here. J. But you know, one of the things that I really fell from everyone around that time is that we were there for 20 years, we help so many things. And then we just up and left and screwed up so many things that we had worked hard for Jay and Caitlin and I'll let you both do it. But is that as something that's similar for a lot of people? Or am I am I getting all the outgo outliers and Thank you, Jay, for that word.

Jay Ball: 13:01

The first thing I think of is a lot of the guys. And I'm not putting them on the spot. But a lot of guys I work with, and a lot of people I know, a little bit younger than me, and my age also. But they were in Afghanistan. They were in Iraq the second time around. And I remember reaching out to him when things are starting to unfold with the withdrawal from Afghanistan. And it's hard for me not to touch into politics about it, because it has a lot to do with it. But looking at the way it was done. And I'm not struggling for words here. But I remember talking to some guys and they're like, Well, why did why did so and so die there. Why did someone so get maimed there? Why did so and so this happens on there for us to just pick up and leave. And I'm not saying 20 years needed to be spent there. But at the here and now of being pulled out and everything just leaving that affected a lot. And I know Steve, I think you mentioned that too, with maybe some clients, but I know that affected some of some of the guys I know, not debilitating by any means. But I know it's in the back of their minds. I know they wanted to talk about it. I know some people struggled with it, especially those that lost close, close members of their units close family members. You see a lot of movies that have come out about Afghanistan. I was not there. Have I done a little bit of research on it yet. Once again, I was not there. I've heard a lot from guys. It was it's a treacherous environment. The things that those men and women had to do in Afghanistan. It isn't you know point blank thing is mountains and the attorney and and everything they had to go with being surrounded by enemy forces people that are they an enemy? Are they not an enemy just like in Iraq? You know, is this little kid pose a threat does this little kid not pose a threat? Some countries and some warring factions don't don't conduct war the same way we do. I'm not saying that the United States it is perfect. We are far from perfect. Our military is far from perfect. But we tend on to play by the rules. And we put a lot of men and whim women over in four areas Afghanistan and Iraq to be specific. And they were. They were put in predicaments that their lives were in danger. But then coming home, the psychological well being, for lack of a better term was also in danger.

Katelyn Dehey: 15:29

I think I've heard a lot of that same stuff from people like, what we're there for all that time for we like so many lives, you know, of our friends and our service, like our fellow service members were, were taken and for what like for it all to just like, what, why did we do all of this? And I think that when you're talking about 20 years of what Jay just sort of described of like, people being over there and going for multiple tours, I mean, tour after tour and being in the difficult terrain and not knowing, you know, if a little kid who looks so innocent as an innocent little kid, or somebody that is gotten explosive strep to that, like, there's so many things that were difficult for people to see, while they were over there. So many atrocities that they saw, and then losing people on top of it. And that went on for so long for so many people that, and then to have it just be ended the way it was ended. Like, just makes people feel like, what did that what was my purpose there? You know, I think it takes away the sense of meaning for people. And I think, a sense of meaning is something I'm always talking about in groups and sessions with clients, because it's an important part of life for everyone. And I feel like the way that that all went down it for a lot of people I've talked to it took away that sense of purpose, that they spent all that time and then just sort of all fell apart.

Jay Ball: 17:05

Yeah, and another thing just going back, so with this current, I'll use the term war because this war, with this current war, different things affect different people. And one thing that I noticed and I say when we Kaitlyn, I teach Mattel for state or some other classes that I've taught, I bring up children a lot, a lot of problems with what I have gone out with myself, from my past that I never recognized was was children. And watching. Listen, I could watch the TV all day long. Wars war, I'm gonna say this, and people are going to be shocked people die. It's horrendous, absolutely horrendous. I see people watching, they've never been in the military and no discredit to them. And they're watching what they see on TV, whether they believe things or what propaganda is out there or whatnot. They're seeing a war. So myself and some other people I've talked to they're in the military. That's not the shocking part. The shocking part is two things that jumped out at me one, what this can turn into, and knowing the capabilities of nuclear powers, not to scare anyone knowing the capabilities of cyber attacks, knowing the capabilities of enps These are all things that when I watched the television, I see war happening and people are gonna be like, oh my, I can't believe he said this, but it to me and to other veterans that I've spoken to it is what it is, it's horrible. It's horrendous. And the second thing get back to the children. And I got an argument, not an argument I kind of got told to stop it. But I wanted to go but as silly as it sounds, I wanted to go to the Polish border. I wanted to protect the children coming across that could get emotional so don't blame me but just from things in Bosnia, seeing the kids come across the borders with one toy and like no food that really really affects me so so everything affects people the same different ways they Oh maybe the combat maybe refugees it's all what what affects you inside

Steve Bisson: 19:14

you know one of the things that touching base on a few things that you said and trying to bring you back a little bit here no one joins the armed forces to be not help you know, at least I can only speak intelligently about two countries here Canada in the US and you want to help those kids you want to help the people there liberate them or help them or whatever this is a little bit of what happens also with first responders right and and that's what they do. They don't choose these jobs to be confronted with these harsh realities. Even though they the first thing I ever hear is people like well, you signed up for this it now you didn't sign up for that I want to punch people when they say that. I think that from my perspective, what I'm hearing from you, Jane, thank you for being so that way. You know for me, it's watching That's stuff that's been very difficult for me. I've never been in those situations, but watching these trains being unloaded and pulling in these kids with like, their one rag doll, they're tired. I haven't slept in 44 hours. And you talking about food I just talked about, you know, again, maybe it's my own bias, but the mental health part that goes with that?

Jay Ball: 20:21

Oh, yeah, I mean, you've got kids that are being displaced. I'm not discounting adults by any means. But you've got little kids who should be at school should be playing in playgrounds playing different things being dragged out of the homes at a moment's notice. And fighting geometry, you know, and we don't see everything. We see kids crossing the border and think it's horrible. We see, I saw a nice picture the other day of a lot of Polish families putting strollers, just leaving them unattended at the border for them coming across. So some of the Ukrainian refugees could get them. And once again, I'm not picking sides, I'm not picking anything. But obviously there's numbers of people being displaced right now. And it's it's Ukrainian citizens. And the citizens that don't have a stake in this, they've been forced out of their homes. So it's similar to Bosnia, there were a lot of displaced people, a lot of the people we met through our translators, they weren't living in the homes they grew up in, or they were moved, and just look in their eyes, you know, say a five year old, a five year old, I should be happy, and you should see their reactions, and they should want to joke and talk with you. And we did have some that were like that. But sometimes we just had blank stares, staring back at us 567 10 years old. And that's not a child should should be growing up.

Katelyn Dehey: 21:41

Yeah, I think to just thinking about the lifelong emotional impact that has on the kids that are being displaced. You know, I've heard people who were sort of displaced in a similar way, when they were really young, in certain countries. And now as adults, when you ask them about their trauma history, and they, you know, washed their father be taken out of out of the home and killed. And they say to you as an adult, well, I guess you could count that as trauma. Like, I'm sorry. What do you mean, you guess you could count that as trauma, drama. But like, if you think about that, like, that's what, uh, you know, that was such a huge portion of, of people's lives. And so it sort of becomes this normal thing, it gets normalized, and then they move on with their lives, but like it, they have flashbacks, and they have nightmares. And that's good, an impact that is lifelong. And it's hard to think about that when you see these kids on the TV.

Steve Bisson: 22:50

It's also how trauma works, right? Because we you know, I again, think about first responders think about military think about whoever has been through trauma. Our brains almost block it out or normalizes it in order to deal with it. And guess that's trauma, really just guessing. It's like when people who you know, again, and not to discount any type of service, you know, you spend your time in San Diego or Colorado but you never left. Stateside, you may not have the same experience, as people maybe who have been like, we talked about Bosnia, we can talk about Somalia, we can talk about, I can talk about 40 different places. I mean, I remember some Panama stuff from a couple of my clients to that, you know, that we minimize with like, oh, I guess I just did my job. I don't know, again, how many times I have to say to people, I don't think you so you signed up for this shit. You sign up to kind of like defend your country, you care for your country. And that can so it's such a different situation, because I think about what you know, going back a little bit to Bosnia is quote, in peace. But really, there's still a lot of tensions down there. And, you know, the unfinished business that goes with that is just sometimes so difficult for our military personnel and the people who live through it. And yeah, it's so difficult.

Jay Ball: 24:19

Yeah, just I obviously want to jump on to maybe even Afghanistan and other other things, but in Bosnia, the the land CARF in the land grab and how things were set up, just that alone, thinking at the displacement, and you transfer that into current times. It's like, okay, great. 1.5 whatever the amount of refugees crossing the border are. Where do they go from here? Great. They're safe in Poland. All you hear is reports of the Polish people being unbelievably splittable. But But where do they go from here? You see a lot on television. Do you believe stuff? Do you not believe stuff than war? You have psyops us psychological operations. Obviously, we have reporters there. There's cameras there. But even lately, we see some things that this happened didn't happen. Now this happened. And, you know, it's a back and forth. But it's actually the the boots on the ground, for example, in Afghanistan, that's that see the things, for example, like you brought Somalia, I have friends in Somalia. And they, they've had jokes with me about, they'll call that a loss. And I'll call the Thai. It's sad to think that way. But they were thrilled. They were there for one mission. And it went awry. It's and when this started in Ukraine, I remember saying to my wife, I said, this is gonna get bad really, really quickly. And she didn't question me on it, but asked me why. And I said, because when you're defending your home, you know where to go. And you know, how you can, how you can sneak up on someone. And the only way this could go is into hand to hand combat, and guerrilla warfare in the streets. With that, on the psychological side, you've got women, children, and elders leaving on trains, and you've got their fathers and grandfathers brothers staying behind to fight. That's another psychological toll taken not only on the children, but also on their loved ones that are that are fleeing the country, where do they come back to? Do they have a place to come back to? Where do they settle? Just imagine, right now, you having to leave your house with one thing? In this cold weather? Where do you go? What do you do,

Steve Bisson: 26:31

and listening to some stories about people leaving with the bare minimum, but their ID in case something happens to them so that they can identify the body? It's kind of like a very dark thought process to think that you know, better carry your ID in case you they find you at least they'll know who's dead and who's alive. And I don't know, Caitlin, if that's something that has struck you in any way with how people feel overall, but I think that even I don't want to deviate too much about the military personnel. But I think that there's a lot of people watching it, who also seems it. It's sad, because it's great that we have more coverage, but it's almost like no, we're watching Big Brother instead of a real war. And I see that a lot in my clients who are not experienced with the military experience and all that. So I think that it's kind of weird. I don't know if you get that. But

Katelyn Dehey: 27:25

yeah, absolutely. I think on a couple levels, this is impacting people who are not, not veterans don't have military experience, for a couple reasons. One, the last two years, like this two years this week, right? It's like when we shut down for COVID. And so like the last few years have been kind of like this bizarre, like, I don't even know what like I that people have struggled so much with the psychological impact of the illness of the lockdown of the mask wearing of the social distancing and isolation. And then like, you know, we're sort of feeling like, okay, maybe we're coming out of this pandemic, like, mask mandates are being taken away, like, you know, most people are vaccinated, whatever. And then, okay, but now, like, now, we're watching this war unfold. And are we going to end up in world war three, like, people have fears about that. And I do think the coverage is, plays a part as well. I think about like, you know, all the people all over the world that ended up with depression and anxiety after 911 Because it was all over the TV, like, the same images of people jumping out of the Twin Towers and the towers crumbling and it was like on repeat on all the news channels and people. The exposure to that was obviously not direct, but to have those images be playing and playing people. That mean that mess that messed up people psychologically that didn't even live in the US because of of how the coverage the media coverage was. And I think that we're at risk of that happening with this as well, because the coverage is pretty intense. You have the plus we have access now to like live cams, my fiance's into live camps all over the place. And they have them everywhere now. And so you can like Google Live cam and Kyiv and it, like, bring stuff up and you can see things happening and explosions going off. And so there's just a lot more access to the visual, which is in some way can be helpful for people who don't have that military background to really understand the severity. But at some point, the prolonged exposure to that is can be damaging.

Steve Bisson: 29:53

From my perspective, the hard part is that you have this fake notion that someone's going to win No one wins. You know, I hate this because, you know, like I grew up in Quebec and born and raised and people in Quebec know about the app in 1941, where the English and the Americans knew that they were going to be set up to be shot from the beaches. And mostly it was a big round of backers that ended up going to war there and getting shot from the top. So when we won in Quebec, we didn't feel we went anything. And I think that that's the other thing that I'm a little concerned about. Because people like, oh, we can win this and we have numbers, and no one was, no one's gonna ever win this. No one. And I just wanted to throw that in. Because again, the history from my own country, and obviously this my shows, I do whatever the hell I want. But number two, number two, it really is something that for me, like, the app is completely wiped out of most history books, except in Quebec, where we're like, Yeah, can we remember this? So just wanted to throw that out? You're gonna say, Jay, I apologize.

Jay Ball: 31:00

And you just brought up something good. I forgot my initial thing, which is fine, but you just brought up something no one's gonna win. The the absolute destruction alone, if it was the end, right now, at this second, the cities are leveled. There is no moment back. And I know I said that few minutes ago. But like you said, there is no moving back. There are no winners. One thing I want to say, especially along mental health, may not be overtly noticeable. And some people are probably going to say, Jay, I don't know why even bringing this up. But there are a lot of people out there that may not understand or may not like the military. Obviously, you don't have to look back too far. And it was a long time ago, you look back to Vietnam and how the Vietnam veterans were treated when they got back. And I think it was deplorable, and I'm glad that isn't happening these days. But if you've got a veteran in your life, and or you come into contact, if they say things like, geez, I'm gonna go over there, geez, I'm gonna do this Jesus. They're not a war monger. They're not killers, they're not bad people. But there's they're struggling, they were given a skill set. And that skill set has to kill that that skill set. Can't you know, not empirical data, but the overwhelming majority, that skill set, especially being a United States, soldier, marine, airmen, anything, it is to protect people to help those just like if a bully was picking on someone in the playground, I did a paper the other day on cyber bullying and 60% of people, you know, two thirds of people think that cyber bullying should stop while 60% of them stand by and do nothing. And that's what you see with our US servicemembers. Right or wrong, whoever's right to have is wrong, they want to go help the person they believe is being attacked, and the person they're being picked on, regardless of political affiliation, regardless of propaganda, or anything along those lines. So think of that. That is I'm not saying it's a mental health crisis, but that is interwoven into into the United States military, we want to help people less fortunate. And yes, I can be countered by people that say, Well, you know, we've had some unethical and evil missions over the years. Yeah, no, no doubt, just like any other country as, but when I hear some of these guys talk to me, and we get into little groups, and we chat about military actions. That's, in my opinion, sometimes, those men and women struggling with what's going on, think of it if you've never been in the military, than a police officer, and you're sitting at home right now watching CNN, or Fox News or whatever, you're watching MSNBC, is your first inclination to grab a rifle, jump on a plane and go to a foreign country. I probably I probably bet that as your first inclination, and I started stat the other day, there's a lot of back and forth and not to get off the mental health, but just just to have how people are thinking, you'll 74 There was a poll out there and I don't believe in totally polls. Total, you know, yeah, truth at him. But 74% of people think we should put up a no fly zone. I would sit there with these veterans who psychologically know what will happen and how awful things will be. I sit there and I look and I just shake my head. I go, No, that's an escalation. Sometimes to get that blank stare of a veteran just shake hands. I get angry. Now my anger. Should I argue with the person that says this? No. Should I have a debate with them? I don't know. Maybe. But that's what's ingrained into my head and other veterans. I feel comfortable saying that's what other veterans think. We're not like I started out we're not watching what's going on TV. We're thinking of how bad it can get. Because, sadly enough, it's this is this is I don't want to say nothing because for a lot of people, it's everything. But thoughts what we know what we've been trained and what we've seen every veteran, singling them out alone. This is just the beginning. And it's not to scare people. But sometimes you see that blank stare My wife asked me, What do you what's wrong? You wouldn't understand, you know, it's one of those things like, I just don't want to talk about it. So and I see that a lot with guys I talked to I check on them some guys that I know that have been in Fallujah guys that have been in fights in Afghanistan, the real deal, they've they've done it, I know that they know what they're thinking, I know what they've done. I've know what they've seen. And, and even though they're not showing it on the the outside there inside them is torn up.

Katelyn Dehey: 35:29

I think that's a really important piece of this for the veteran population. Because I think that sort of inability to be able to just hop on a plane and go and protect people and be involved and be using that skill set that that you have as a veteran, I think that leads to a lot of feelings of helplessness and hopelessness. And that's where, you know, we get into sort of the danger zone with suicidal ideation, self medication, things like that, because your visceral reaction to what's happening in the news is, I want to be there, I want to, I want to be protecting people I want to be helping and, and you're not in a position to do that. And so what what, what do you do, and it's bringing up all these thoughts about what you didn't see and what what you were doing to help and, and it just can get, I think, can really spiral pretty quickly.

Steve Bisson: 36:26

And I know, this is not the main conversation we have here, but never forget the families that have to stay back. And you know, I have a lot of friends from my previous employment, who are, you know, spouses of military personnel, and they talk about, like, right now being on high alert, they this is not necessarily about, I haven't talked to him in a while, but they were talking about, you know, Afghanistan, you might be called up tomorrow. And you know, the family has to pick up everything and the other person is going and you may be kissing them for the last time. And that's kind of scary stuff, too. And I think that that's what you're talking about what veterans and people are feeling helpless here who know a little bit about the combat situation. Again, I don't have the ego to say that I understand it. But the substance abuse, the mental health crisis that that causes, and then it affects 510 20 people, depending on how big your family and your friends circle is. It does affect them a lot. And I think that that's where, you know, I want to throw that out to because, you know, there's police personnel that I've talked to, they're like, Okay, well, we got three guys who are on the reserves, what's going to happen to them. And that's the stuff that people tend to forget about how the impact of something happening away from you can affect a police department, fire department, a family, a neighborhood, everything, so just want to throw that out, too.

Jay Ball: 37:47

Yeah, and not to divert too much off but still sticking with veterans. As you know, Steve, and Caitlin definitely knows this. I'm a big believer in specialty courts. I don't care if it's a drug treatment court, I can name off a whole bunch of one being Veterans Treatment Court. You've got some veterans, either involved or not. And I always hear well, why don't we give him veterans a free ride? And I believe and I think I said in a previous episode, yes. They're not getting, they're not getting a free ride. Some of the treatment they do, I think it'd be much easier just to go to regular court and get through the process or go to jail. Frankly,

Steve Bisson: 38:20

some go to

Jay Ball: 38:21

jail. Yeah, I mean, it could but these veterans are working through their issues. A lot of them are younger. We see a lot of domestics. A lot of it's it's sad to say we see some firearms charges, but these firearms charges are stemmed from maybe they're self medicating, as Caitlyn said, Being toxicated or noise complaint. Next thing, you know, guns left out in the open and they're picking up a gun charge. Am I condoning them having guns while they're intoxicated on? Absolutely not. But obviously, there's a precursor precursor to their their trauma, a lot of the guys that we deal with in veterans court have have a lot of trauma from their, from their service in the military. So I just wanted to reiterate that part, you know, we may have veterans that commit crimes, but a lot of it needs to move into something like treatment based veterans court. And I'm not just saying all veterans, I believe in all, especially courts, but just reinforcing that fact. I

Katelyn Dehey: 39:20

think one of the things that just sort of popped into my head was like, What are you talking about trauma J and like, what I think one of the big reasons that this is so hard for people who have served in the military capacity is that this whole thing with Russia and Ukraine is a huge trigger. Like we try to, I try not to talk about, you know, people get triggered by all kinds of things these days, but this is a huge trigger for Trump people with with military trauma. It just is and that's, you know, can bring up all kinds of things to can bring people back to flashbacks and when nightmares and hyper vigilance, you know, all those sort of symptoms of post traumatic stress can be triggered by, by what's happening in the news. And so I think that is really a an important thing to keep in mind.

Jay Ball: 40:16

Absolutely, absolutely.

Steve Bisson: 40:18

There's so many things that both of you said that are so important. I mean, I've been with a veteran where they hear, you know, a garbage container top fall on top, you know, when they close it, and they get triggered by that sound, because it does sound very difficult for some people. I've worked with veterans who they have a gun, you talking about the gun? It's not about the gun. For me, it's about what made you take out the gun. What what has, you know, obviously, I've started a couple of recovery courts in Massachusetts, and the, you know, gun charges do come up. And I'm like, Well, yeah, that's lack of judgment, because of substances or trauma, stuff like that. So it's not just like, like, I know, you know, we got to be black and white, sometimes in law enforcement, and I get it. But sometimes that gun charges, nothing compared to the other stuff that goes with that. And that's where you got like the My Favorite judge who works in the recovery court in Worcester always said, there's a difference between the spirit of law and the letter of the law. And you need to remember that there's a huge difference between the two.

Jay Ball: 41:18

I gotta say, not to divert too much, but I gotta look the other day from a defense attorney. In the staffing meeting, I said, is that a real gun charge or fake gun charge? And they gave me this crazy look, but exactly what you said, Steve, you know, this firearm was some cases that are found during another incident, and are being actively used and yes, dangerous situation regardless. But it's you know, exactly what that Judge friend of yours said.

Steve Bisson: 41:46

Yeah, well, I think that that's why I like a little bit of what's going on right now. You know, we talked about Ukraine, we talked about Russia. We talked about how it's affecting the vets, we need to understand that we're, we, I'm done with the social media, warriors, who know everything about what's going on in Ukraine and Russia and the vaccine and whatever else you want to talk about. They, they also know about my, you know, my possible issues with fatigue. And I'm like, Yeah, that's great. You don't know nothing. And I think that what I really want to come back to is how do we help veterans, we talked about the drug courts, which is one aspect, but right now, there's several other aspects whether veterans, inactive, military, active military, there's a lot of different people who are very much affected by this. And obviously veterans, I'm not trying to dismiss them. How do we help them? And I asked that the both of you

Jay Ball: 42:42

Caitlin's gotta have a much more educated answer than me. So I'm going to start so she can just like, brush me up, one with veterans to start talk to him, call them. Yeah, guess what, you gotta run to a stone wall of veterans, sometimes they're not going to tell you what's wrong with them is going to move on.

Steve Bisson: 42:57

never noticed.

Jay Ball: 43:00

But But remember, on the side, though, they're probably going to talk to the brothers and sisters on that end. So it was all help hope. Check in on him. As for others, like I said, I'm going to defer to you and Caitlin the professionals in this as for others, help them through it. My problem is when this first started, I relaxed that term exploded. Like I said, you know, a lot what's going on, you know, what can't happen, what potential there has to happen. And you say things that you probably shouldn't say, around people that are just trying to get through their normal day, and you bleed over your thoughts and your concerns on to other people, and make them more scared. That's something that can affect their this like he also in my opinion, I'll stop there, because I know that Caitlin's gonna have something much more technical to explain.

Katelyn Dehey: 43:50

I mean, I don't know if it's, I don't know if it's more technical. I think you're right. I think if you have that if you have veterans or active military people in your life, like yeah, check in on them reach out, how are you doing? How are you handling things? And maybe they say they're fine. And that's great. Maybe you check in again and another week? Because we don't know that.

Steve Bisson: 44:12

I gotta stop you for a second. How many veterans have you checked in that weren't fine? What do you mean, what my experience is every veteran I spoke to is like, Oh, I'm good. I'm fine. I'm good. They never really opened up right away. They sit in my office for 60 minutes, and then suddenly, there's shit going down. But before that, if I call them or text them and like, everything's great. I'm good. Thank you.

Katelyn Dehey: 44:35

Well, yeah, I mean, it depends. I've I have checked in with people and had them Be like, not good, then that's okay. Well, when we, you know, then we deal with it from there. Um, but yeah, it's not a common experience. But you know, like you said, like, they're gonna oftentimes just say they're fine all the time. And maybe, maybe they are, but maybe they're not. And so content sort of continually, not every day and so thoroughly, but like, give it a week and check in again, because things change drastically over the course of a week, especially in a situation like this. And so I think that's helpful. I also think, you know, if if you do know, a veteran or active military member who's struggling, and they are looking to get help, you know, making sure you point them in the right direction for that help, because, like we've talked about with first responders in general, not every therapist is prepared to cope with that, with that, you know, with somebody sitting in their office talking about the war trauma that they have from years ago, or whatever. So, you know, making sure that the place that we're sending them for help is an appropriate place is important. And, and just knowing that, like letting people know, too, that, that we support the veterans, whether that's with a social media post or donation to a military organization, you know, just I think sometimes that support gets lost in the shuffle. And I think that can be important too.

Steve Bisson: 46:06

And I was joking, of course, some veterans are very honest, but you know, part of Jay laughs so he knows exactly what I mean by that. One of the ways I found personally to do is if I ask him that, how he's doing it, and they say, Good, which is the standard bullshit answer. I always say, Well, how's How's your wife dealing with this? Or how's your partner dealing with this? Or how's your kids? Now suddenly, they had, they're, they're affected, not the veteran. So I take that information, and kind of like, oh, so none of that is affecting you. And usually I can get the conversation going, usually. So that's the other advice I have is that if someone's kind of closed down for their own reasons, obviously, because as I've never obviously, we've talked this about talked about this in another episode, I'm going to ask for a story from Jay, you know, I never will ask you for a story ever. And so you don't necessarily want to do that. But in the presence as a friend, as a family member, sometimes it's getting to talk about other people that they care about how it's affecting them, in order for them to open up about their own stuff. And so that's why I joke around about, you know, the standard answer, but please, whoever is a veteran and is very offended by my answer. I'm okay with that. So I think that the other part that I wanted to kind of like discuss a little bit is, is there a way to help veterans heal? Because I know it's a simple? It's a very complex answer. Obviously, I'm not that dumb. But how do we help them because this is not it's triggering for the population. I think that triggering also this simplistic view of sometimes who people who have been served or people who don't know about a war, and reading some z in the art of war is not being an action whatsoever, as one of my clients has pointed out, how do we help them heal at least at least a little bit? Because the reality is, is that you're absolutely right, Jay. It's not going to end in Ukraine. That's not That's not? I don't, my own personal opinion, is that this is just the start. And so how do we help heal in this very troubled times for them?

Jay Ball: 48:11

Well, one thing that I look at, it's a bad analogy, but get a Volkswagen tires, take the tires off it, hook a chain up to it, and tell the you know, person to pull it because that's what it's like getting. And I'm not speaking for all veterans, but that's what's like to get a veteran, sometimes first responders into therapy as both you know, because that's your specialty. But once you get them in there, it takes a while but they they open up maybe they disappear for a while maybe they come back, but it's incumbent upon anyone listening right now versus spot and I'm not like I said, No disrespect to anyone that's not a first responder, not a veteran, but obviously the show is singled upon them to come up with upon those who have been to therapy who have talked to someone maybe it's just talking to someone to let them know it's not a place to be afraid. I know a lot of things come out of oh my god, I'm gonna get section two. Oh, no, you're not gonna get sectioned. Oh my god, they're gonna think I'm crazy. You know, they're not gonna think you're crazy. I can't believe I'm weak. Well throw the weak thing out because I don't want to hear that anymore. You need help. You need to talk to someone. There are people that specialize out there. Caitlyn Steven, for example. There are veterans who are clinicians, there are police officers who are clinicians. So what what I'm saying to people who are struggling or not struggling and don't want to go to therapy, reach out to someone who has listened to the people that have if you have gone to therapy if you have talked to someone if you just do it to decompress encourage those struggling if you see that stare veterans know that's their clinicians know that so you see that stare you're at home you see the outbursts I don't say danced around it. But no, let's start with each other because no one thinks you're any less of a person any any tough because you're going to go talk to someone I bring up and Caitlin knows this. She must be annoyed with it by now, fellas To drop a heart attack right now you got to help me with the heart attack. If I, if I have a problem psychologically, why do we stare at people and think they're less of a human being okay? So help help each other, you know, encourage others to go get help, it may take a while I know there's a good friend of mine that every time I talk to him, I feel like he hates me about going, he disregards it. But I know, he hasn't told me yet. But I know he went. Because just by the way, he talked to me one day, so you may not know it, but what you do to encourage people may have a profound effect. I think too,

Katelyn Dehey: 50:34

there is me saying this and mental health first aid to like there is hope for recovery, like you want to give people that people can recover from severe trauma and severe post traumatic stress. There's all kinds of treatments out there to help with with trauma, there's EMDR, and transcranial magnetic stimulation is one of the newer ones that is out there for for that kind of stuff. And I think there is treatment for it. And with that, though, like, Yes, I think you can heal, you can heal people trauma, but that doesn't mean that that wound won't get back, open back up again. You know, I think with all you know, depression, bipolar, whatever anybody's diagnosis might be, you can go to therapy, and you can get treatment, and you can take medication, and you can get to a point where you're, you're managing it and you're doing it, you're functioning well, and, and you're healed, right, like you've recovered. But then maybe something happens you some, you know, a loved one dies in a traumatic car accident, or, you know, for veterans like this, maybe they're a veteran, I'm sure that there are veterans out there that have had gotten to a place of healing their trauma, and then this Ukrainian thing comes up and it sort of rips that wound back open. And so then it's another process of taking care of yourself and, and going back to therapy and getting getting healed again, which again, like Jay said, but the heart attack thing, like that's what you do if if you get a cold, you, you rest, you take care of yourself, you heal. Are you never gonna get a cold again, in your life? Probably you are. And so you have to go through the same thing again. But it's always healing, I think is always a possibility. And recovery is always something that I think people should have hope for.

Steve Bisson: 52:25

And I think I go back to one of the analogies that Jays used before, like anything from the neck down. That's okay, we can talk about it that's wide open, whatever is up next up, whoa, whoa, I'm not dealing with that. I mean, I, I joke around that if someone had like a big mark on their face, you will not mention that. Because oh my god, I can't mention. But if they have it on their arm, like hey, what the hell is that? And so I think that that's the stuff that I talked about, about me being okay. And I use your analogy in another podcast, and I gave you credit for it, Jay. So just for the record, the thing that I want to go back to what you said, Jay, just because it's true, and most of my clients laugh about it. So it starting in January, I have a little board on my wall in my office, and it says fu on it. And people ask me, What does that stand for? I said, Well, when I really get my clients, particularly my first responders and my military personnel, they sometimes look at me and go, you know, and to me, that's the ultimate compliment. And people always laugh. They're like, really, that's that seems like mean, I'm like, No, that means they respect you. That means they you got them. And so if the insurance company is listening, it's an F dash use of follow up, it's that's what I need to do. The rest of you are real. It is what it is. And I think that for me as a therapist, what I found this to be okay with kind of pressing stuff, and I'm not very scared of that. I will push people and if they pissed, they're pissed off a little bit for a short while. 90% of them come back and say thank you for pissing me off. And that's okay. There's nothing wrong with that. The other thing that I want to mention too, is that you know, we talked about trauma. I'm an EMDR. Guy. I've done EMDR for years. I tell people trauma you don't you don't. I hate the heal word of trauma. Because you get you get through it. You never get over it and it never disappears. So yeah, it will be triggered again. And I don't care how good my EMDR is, there's going to be some things in front of military personnel that I've worked with. These things are triggering. So let's not play games that we heal from trauma. I've never healed anyone from depression, anxiety, bipolar, schizophrenia, trauma, I've helped them get through it. And sometimes they get retriggered and that's life. That's includes my own mental health. I've had my own stuff in my life and 90 sometimes need to go back to work at it. So just want to throw that out to

Jay Ball: 54:44

just one thing. I know we're probably getting close to wrapping up but this episode is about veterans. Absolutely. But check on your neighbors. This is a time that maybe some of our people older than all of us Think back to the Cuban Missile Crisis. This has an effect on everyone. Yes, they we focus on veterans. But let's check on our neighbors. People are sitting by the television watching every single minute of that. Yes, they're not in Kyiv? No, they're not in Ukraine. No, they're not in Eastern Europe. But people are watching this as if it was a mini series, not saying the discarding that this is real life. But check on your neighbors check on your veteran friends. Like Steve said, you're probably going to get the fu probably going to get like I say, people are good. There's a great video out there. I'm good. You're not good. Check on your friends, check on the military members. Okay. That's that's just one thing I want to put out there. Let's not anyone be sitting around stewing on this 24/7. The news hasn't stopped. It has a profound effect on everyone, not just people who are in the military or currently in the military.

Steve Bisson: 55:52

One of the things I also would mention that if you're checking on neighbors, people, whoever you check on, doesn't matter who you check on. One of my tricks that I tell people is if you say the same word three times they're lying. And what I mean by Are you good? Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, that means they're lying. They're not good. And I tell people that that's a trick to kind of like note, and everyone, you both laugh because you know, I'm right. And I always tell people, if they say the same thing three times or more, they're not meaning it and it's okay, not the press someone and maybe you don't get a fuck you you make you get a silence or whatever. Say, can I check back on you later on? I think that's a great idea. Any closing thoughts from you, Caitlin?

Katelyn Dehey: 56:32

Oh, I just I think all of what you guys just sent us is really relevant. I think, you know, I do outpatient groups. And it is impacting everyone, not just people who are in the military, I think that's really a valid point, but with anxiety are reading the news and feeling anxious about about all of it about, you know, the nuclear threats and the, you know, the economic impact, and the, you know, all just all of it people get anxious about about things like this. And so I think it is having an impact on everyone, especially the veterans, and just be mindful of that when you're talking to people about it. And I think that's, that's all,

Steve Bisson: 57:17

I'm gonna, I'm going to finish off with that a couple of things that I would I say, I've said to my clients for about, ever, but recently, in two weeks, I've said a lot, spend 10 minutes watching the news in the morning, watch the news, 10 minutes at night, that's it, you don't, you're not gonna miss anything, nothing major. And if there's something major, you're gonna hear it in the morning, you're gonna hear it at night. It's not like that news is gonna like you're breaking it, you're not you're not MSNBC, you're not Fox News. You're just some schmo listening to the news. So get away from that get away from your phone. And that, and again, I'm going to sound a little bit of a softy here, but I'm fine with that. Let's stop talking about this divisions over politics and human beings and stuff like that. I don't care what your I don't care what your political stance are. I don't care what your race is, I don't care what your gender is, or gender identity, whatever that is. To me, we're humans. And you know, the commonality of being a human being and being affected by people who are crossing the border of Poland, going through the disturbing images that if you've never been in combat and seeing things on TV that I can't believe we're putting that on, go back to the Vietcong at this point, for Christ's sake. But, and I think that that's where you also kind of like have to start thinking about how we're going to treat each other in the long term because most people know I'm a bleeding heart liberal from Canada who is not American. Yet, I've never met someone who believes in conservative views that I didn't love in some way. And I know I sound like a peace and love type of guy here. I don't really care. Because they're just a human with an opinion. You know, if they pulled a gun on me, and they said, You gotta believe what I believe maybe I'd have a different point of view. But no one's ever pointed, pulled the gun on me, no one's pulled a weapon on me. We've had disagreements I wear my Montreal Canadiens jersey, a Boston Bruins game and I get crap for it. But at the end of the day, we're all humans. And I know I sound a little piece and love and I'm a little teary thinking about that. But let's, let's take this as an opportunity to see it as a human issue. Not just a Ukrainian, Russian, white black, she her them. And I'm not trying to point any particular but you know what I mean? I'm a Canadian who would fight for this country in two seconds. I would fight for Canada in two seconds. But it's because they're humans, and I love them. And we need to remember that so sorry, Jay. I went a little soft on you there.

Jay Ball: 59:43

No worries.

Steve Bisson: 59:44

So I want to thank you again for this great episode. I think this was impactful. I think Caitlin's the only one who didn't cry she's Yeah, I can't remember that far back now. But it's Memorial realize forever. And I do hope that this helps some people, not only first responders, veterans, but also you people who listen to this podcast because I think there's a lot of therapeutics and mental health stuff that comes from this. And I want to thank you for your time and season five is going to be right around the corner again. And you know, you're both invited again.

Jay Ball: 1:00:23

Thanks for having me. Hopefully, I won't sleep through it.

Steve Bisson: 1:00:28

I didn't mention it once. I did it once. Maybe they're in here. We I had to. You can get the show notes. And I'll explain that later. All right. Thanks, guys. Thank you. Thank you. So Wow, very apropos subject. Very heavy stuff, very difficult stuff. We tried to touch a whole lot of different things, didn't know what I was going to go. But you know, Thank you, Jay, for opening up about your experience being in Bosnia. It's it's very generous of you to open up about that. Caitlin, your insight with your current work, and also your history of working with first responders. I can't tell you thank you enough. You know, the feeling helpless the families, what it has triggered in other people, the past traumas, current traumas. I know I finished off a little philosophical the episode. But yeah, that was something. So I really am hoping you guys give me a lot of feedback on this. Because to me, that was probably such an important topic. But more importantly, just just very difficult. And I think that we're not trying to be political here. Just a very difficult subject to talk about veterans, and how it affects them. When there is war, essentially, on live TV at this point. Episode 41 is with Rachael Chatham. Rachel is a therapist, and she responded to a message I had said that I want to talk about people's experiences in therapy, and she was more than happy to do so. She is a licensed clinical mental health counselor in Asheville, North Carolina, and she practices Buddhist psychology, traumatic stress and schema therapy. And we'll talk a lot about different things on that subject. And I can't wait to hear about her experience as a therapist as well as, but we're going to talk also about the experience of clients in therapy, and I'm very excited about that. So I will see you then. Please like, subscribe or follow this podcast on your favorite platform. A glowing review is always helpful. And as a reminder, this podcast is for information, educational, and entertainment purposes. If you're struggling with a mental health or substance abuse issue, please reach out to a professional counselor or therapist for consultation.