E.41 Relationship Trauma, How Does It Feel To Be a Client, And Boundaries With Rachael Chatham

In this episode, we are talking to Rachael Chatham about being a therapist and having received therapy yourself, relationship trauma, as well as complex PTSD. We also discuss the importance of the therapeutic alliance, flexible boundaries, and how to make it all work.

Rachael Chatham has been a Licensed Clinical Mental Health Counselor in private practice in Asheville, NC for the past ten years. She is certified in Buddhist Psychology, Traumatic Stress and Schema Therapy and she integrates experiential work with traditional talk therapy in her work with individuals. Rachael works with people struggling in their relationships with themselves and others and finds her work with clients to be deeply meaningful and fulfilling. When she's not practicing psychotherapy, she can be found writing, reading, cooking, walking or dreaming.

She can be reached at www.skillfulself.com
Her courses on Inner Child Work: Initiating Connection and Healing the Father Wound: The Father Fix can be accessed by simply clicking on the titles. 

Transcript

Steve Bisson: 0:01

Hi and welcome to finding your way through therapy. I am your host, Steve Bisson. I'm an author and mental health counselor. Are you curious about therapy? Do you feel there is a lot of mystery about there? Do you wonder what your therapist is doing and why? The goal of this podcast is to make therapy and psychology accessible to all by using real language and straight to the point discussions. This podcast wants to remind you to take care of your mental health, just like you would your physical health. therapy should not be intimidating. It should be a great way to better help. I will demystify what happens in counseling, discuss topics related to mental health and discussions you can have what your thoughts, I also want to introduce psychology in everyday life. As I feel most of our lives are enmeshed in psychology. I want to introduce the subtle and not so subtle ways psychology plays a factor in our lives. It will be my own mix of thoughts as well as special guests. So join me on this discovery of therapy and psychology. Hi, and welcome to episode 41 of finding your way through therapy. I am Steve Bisson. So if you haven't listened to Episode 40, I urge you to do so probably one of the hardest podcasts I've had to do in a good way. Obviously, we want to be able to talk about the hard stuff. But we talked to Sergeant Jay Ball. And Kaitlin Dehey about how the issues in Ukraine and Russia have affected people who are first responders who have served in the military and current people who are going to serve or still enrolled to serve and it was just a great conversation. So I hope you get back to it. But episode 41 is with Rachel Chatham. Rachel Chatham is someone I met through an online kind of forum because I had asked if anyone wanted to talk about their experience in therapy. So Rachel Chatham has been a licensed clinical mental health counselor in private practice in Asheville, North Carolina for the past 10 years. She's a certified Buddhist psychologist, trauma, stress and schema therapy. And she integrates experimental work with traditional talk therapy and our work with individual. Rachael works with people struggling in their relationship with themselves and others and finds her work with others, very deeply meaningful and fulfilling. When she's not practicing psychotherapy. She can be found writing, reading, cooking, walking, or dreaming. So yes, I'm looking forward to talking about so many things there. Someone who practices Buddhism, I have written a book, obviously, so I hope we can get to some of that stuff. But here is the interview. Hi, everyone, and welcome to Episode 41, of finding your way through therapy. Very excited. You know, it's interesting, you you find guests in very different ways. And Rachel Chatham is someone that responded to something I asked on, I believe it was LinkedIn. And I asked about a specific question, which we will get to. But Rachel was not only very generous with our time today, but she was also very generous with some explanations, but I truly, truly appreciate. And just like any interviews, where I don't know someone, some of these questions will be genuine, because I don't know. So, Rachel, welcome.

Rachel Chatham: 3:10

Thank you, Steve. I'm excited to be here with you.

Steve Bisson: 3:14

Well, Rachel, you know that the first thing I would like to know and really, it's a genuine question, but I think the audience also would want to know is Tell me a little bit about yourself.

Rachel Chatham: 3:22

So I am a psychotherapist in Asheville, North Carolina, and I have been in private practice here for about 10 years, I would say that I specialize in depth therapy, I use a very integrative holistic style. Most recently, I've started doing a lot of schema therapy, I got certified in schema therapy over the past year. I am also certified in Buddhist psychology, the certified yoga teacher. So when applicable, I bring some of that in. So I have quite a few different kinds of folks that I like to work with. Largely I like working with history of relational trauma, I would say that's kind of my main thing, long term, pattern patterns that people find themselves stuck in and kind of breaking that cycle with them. I do a lot of parts work as well.

Steve Bisson: 4:23

I just have like 27 different questions based on that answer alone. So I'm gonna try not to get too much off the subject. What are the things that we were talking pre interview is that I live now in Massachusetts, but you are originally born here? As I understand.

Rachel Chatham: 4:41

I am indeed I was born in Western Mass, and a little city called Pittsfield and I have nothing but really fond memories. But my family relocated to Florida when I was around seven or eight. So most of my formative years through my mid 20s, all in South Florida.

Steve Bisson: 5:00

And let's give a shout out to what part of Florida

Rachel Chatham: 5:02

I am from Palm Beach County. So I grew up mostly in Boca.

Steve Bisson: 5:06

Okay. Yep. All right. Yeah. Well, I have a lot of therapist friends down in Florida also. So that's why I wanted to give the shout out. So, yeah. So Angela, if you're hearing me, that's why I did that. I did that for you. But, ya know, I just thought it would be it's interesting, because I, you moved out of here, I moved in here. I mean, just that's just the, you know, the circle of life if you asked me, okay, so somebody doesn't wake up one day and say, All right, I'm gonna have a private practice. And I'm going to talk about relationship trauma and do Buddhist psychology. I mean, no way. If you woke up that way, that one day, we are very interested in that story. But how do we get to that journey in life?

Rachel Chatham: 5:51

Well, I think, you know, honestly, more and more, I'm thinking about the answer to this question, just as him and I'm in my own process of doing some writing. And I know you mentioned, you've also written a book, I have to say, if I'm being totally honest here, I think a lot of us come to this work from our own early childhood conditioning, within our families of origin, where we learn to be really sensitive, we learn to be really perceptive, we learn to take care of other people, we become really good at that. And I think for a lot of us, when we're at that point of choosing career and looking at our natural strengths, we tend to have some of that stuff already pretty well refined. So I think that's, I mean, that's been a part of it, for me, at least, just kind of growing up. And

Steve Bisson: 6:43

so being sensitive to others, or being sensitive because of your own family slash friends slash neighborhood process.

Rachel Chatham: 6:50

Yes, yes. And I, I've always been fascinated by the human condition, and human behavior, and why do we do the things we do? And why do we do them repeatedly? Sort of to no avail? I've just always been fascinated by it. And, and the concept of suffering, you know, and what do we do with the suffering that we experience, which is part of the Buddhist psychology influenced to

Steve Bisson: 7:17

you, you just gonna keep on tempting me on that one? I was gonna say it's because of your desire. But anyway, what's funny is that I always ask that question everyone, because I always want to know where people got where they're at, in their process. And my joke answer is when I was 16, I did a test and one of them came up as a psychotherapist, and I said, Wait a minute, people are going to talk to me about their problems, and I'm going to get paid. That sounds like a sweet deal. But you know, ultimately, I know this is your interview. But you know, I, the real true story is, and it's in my book, it's my best friend died in a fire when I was 12. And that's really helped my journey started, after a little bit of issues for until I woke up that the loss of my friend is what caused me to have those issues when I was 1314 15. So we all have a story like that, I guess. And yeah, I haven't repeated that one yet. I'm happy I haven't. But maybe it's a good place to start off with a little bit of so many things I want to talk about. But

Rachel Chatham: 8:18

trauma is what brought you to this work. Right, which is exactly I think the thing for for so many of

Steve Bisson: 8:24

us. And I think that you're right, you know, with the trauma, the relationship issues, the other stuff that comes with that. And it's part of our work. I guess the I definitely want to talk about trauma a little later on. And I definitely want to talk about Buddhism as, like I said, pre interview, you've tempted me twice. It's hard for someone who follows Buddhist principles to not really bite into that. But I'm resisting temptation at this point. Because I don't want to desire anything. So I suffer. You know, I guess what the reason why is that I really, you know, you talk about how we get here and read because of our own journey. How do we get someone to start thinking about their journey into therapy, because, you know, my experience anyway, to this day is that a lot of people still struggle with, I need help I need to possibly talk to someone who's a good friend of mine says, You can't solve a problem that the same mind created. Yeah. So how do we talk to people about getting

Rachel Chatham: 9:23

there as far as getting people to be willing to get into therapy who would benefit from it?

Steve Bisson: 9:29

Because I think while we have been the pandemic is, for two years has really opened up some stuff. I still think there's a significant amount of resistance that I can take care of my own self that bravado for lack of a better word.

Rachel Chatham: 9:45

Yeah, I totally get what you're saying. I guess the word that comes to mind for me is just normalize keep normalizing that you know therapy, there is still this stigma that therapy is for psychotic Crazy people, and where I live. Luckily, that's not the case. But I know that I'm in a little tiny blue.in, the midst of a lot of red around and people in the city that I'm in tend to really want to do the whole self improvement healing thing. But there are many places that are not like that at all. And so I think that while right now we're in a unique period in history, where psychotherapy is more normalized than it has ever been before watching therapy, television commercials, and, you know, having it be so accessible, whether it's online therapy, or telephone therapy, or, of course, good old fashioned in person therapy, I think accessibility is going to continue to be a key. And I think, normalizing it. And I think the more people that are kind of like out and proud about the fact they're in therapy, that sort of, it helps the profession because for a child to say to their parent or their uncle, hey, you know, I'm in therapy and and here's what I find is helpful about it is just kind of like helping to provide that education for people who might still be caught in that really stigmatizing view of what this work really is and can be.

Steve Bisson: 11:23

And I think that you hit a few good points there. One of my favorite things is when I get my most resistant clients who come in, and now they tell me like I sit at a table, and I tell him, my therapist said, and I'm always proud moment, because I knew the resistance that started with and where they have developed that. So really lifting the stigma by showing your own treatment. And it's also kind of like, you know, we do have blue dots, we have red dots. But I also think that there's gender differences. There's racial differences. And, you know, I don't want to be I want to solve every world problem, but I know I won't. I think it's do you think that that's also something that plays a factor and breaking down the stigma is to kind of like, reach out to these maybe different groups that may not be willing to reach out because it is tough in certain circumstances?

Rachel Chatham: 12:18

I do. And I like what you started out by saying, like, I don't know that I can fix every every problem that exists are around this issue. But I mean, the short answer is yes, absolutely. I think there are gender differences, I think there's probably differences in terms of race, and culture, and what people are taught and believe in different cultures about the importance or the efficacy of psychotherapy, I think those are all, you know, big bridges to close the gap on.

Steve Bisson: 12:49

And I think that it's also reaching out to the group, you know, you reach out to most groups, you can increase the awareness and lift the stigma. And I hope that one day, my goal is that Massachusetts is apparently voting on this knock on wood. Once a year, you get a mental health visit For free. Wow. And I'm hoping that this is not only national, but being a Canadian, also, international, indoor Europe. I don't care the whole world, frankly. But I think that that's the stuff that I always kind of remember is like I how I try to lift the stigma is that you go see your doctor, when you're feeling fine, once a year, and you're not Oh my God, why do I have to see a doctor and then feel stigmatized, you just go in? So maybe this is a way to lift the stigma. And I really hope that people start buying into that too. Because, yes, there is people who have psychosis in have to go to treatment. And Jane and John Doe that I know, are not people that you would ever point out and they need therapy. And I think that from my perspective, I'm in therapy, well, not anymore, but find a new therapist, and good luck with that. I don't know if that's the same thing in North Carolina. Yeah, times are tough. But I think that getting to therapy is never going to be something I have no problem talking about my own therapy. And there's a little bit of like, the stuff that we we kind of pre interview again taught is that, you know, you talk a little bit about yourself being in therapy. And, you know, it's interesting, because I always wonder how does that inform your work as a therapist nowadays?

Rachel Chatham: 14:22

Yeah, so so much so and and I can't speak highly enough of the therapist who does their own work. Because I think that there are some huge potential blind spots for folks who want to be in the therapists chair, but are unwilling to be in the client chair. You know, so I think it's, I think it's incredibly important. I started my own therapy. There's a couple of experiences I can kind of tell you about, but I've done therapy a several different times, mostly in my 20s. So a little while ago now.

Steve Bisson: 14:57

I thought you were 25 Yeah,

Rachel Chatham: 14:59

right. Yeah, no, I'm just just a scat older than that. But in my early 20s, I had had a really terrible kind of relationship trauma. So going back to that, with a boyfriend who I was dating, just a relationship went really south. And I was personally lost. You asked, How did I get into this world of psychology and therapy too, this was the pivotal time where I sort of had to declare a major and figure out what direction I was going to take. And I was just frozen scared, I had no idea didn't want to make the wrong choice, kind of didn't want to make any choice for fear that it would be the wrong one. And I ended up going to see a therapist at that time, who, essentially I think, I just really needed someone to talk to, right. And she did this really wonderful thing for me, I didn't see her for very long, just a few sessions, really. But in the course of my relaying my relationship trauma with her, I was in tears and just crying and crying. And I think I probably had my hands over my eyes. Also, there was so much shame involved and what I had experienced. And I remember at one point, I took my hands down, I looked over at her, and she was also crying. And it sort of like, it hit me in this really intense way that what I'm describing, and what I'm feeling is enough to elicit tears in someone else. Wow, this must be like really real. This must have been like, really bad. And it wasn't just that I was feeling sorry for myself. It's that, oh, this is like a really sad story. So that, for me was one of those pivotal moments in my life. When I saw that in her. It kind of made me think like, gosh, I feel stuff really deeply, you know, could I do work like this. And, you know, that was a really a really big positive experience. And, and even you know, to this day, I make it a point that if I'm with a client, and they're sharing with me a really sad story, or they're emoting in such a way that it is just evocative, I will shed a tear with them. I'm very cautious, I should disclaim this. I'm very cautious not to sort of overwhelm and kind of take over the session with anything I might be feeling. But I'll sort of shed a tear with them. Let them know, hey, wow, like, This is crazy. The story you're telling me is unbelievable, unbelievable tragedy. And I am in the hopes, you know that they can feel empathize with that they can really feel felt and that because it was so monumental for me.

Steve Bisson: 17:52

And just a reminder of listening to finding your way through therapy, we're sitting with Stevie saw Rachel Chatham, we're talking about something very important. I love what you said in regards to the therapists crying with you. And there is a professional way of doing so. If you take over the crying and make it about you, that's one thing. But I have zero shame to say that this has happened to me listening to my clients stories, I make sure that I don't take over the session, and there is a way to ethically do that. What if and I'm challenging you I know the answer kind of talked about it. But what if someone says, Well, that means you can't separate yourself from your clients, therefore, you're not professional. What would you say to someone who says

Rachel Chatham: 18:34

that? I would probably start with the word Ouch. Which is a favorite of mine. I would beg to differ. You know, I think I think I'm very capable of separating myself professionally. And actually, I think I keep pretty good boundaries, which is another thing that I feel like I've learned from my experiences with clinicians who have not had a stress stronger boundaries. So I don't think it's a boundary issue. I don't think it's a professionalism issue. I think it's a human issue. And I think that when you are with someone who is suffering profoundly. I feel like it's a part of just I mean, I'm a HSP, I'm highly sensitive, I'm an empath, right, all the things for me not to feel with them would be totally inauthentic. And again, I think that it does have there is something about that, that is healing just to see someone else feeling with you.

Steve Bisson: 19:37

And I agree, I agree wholeheartedly. I wouldn't say ouch. I would say first of all, I don't care. Number two, but if you need a explanation, I would say similar things to you. And I would also add that clients need to feel that their sufferings real because we as human beings, do you know a lot of people More of a rhetorical question that really validate their hearts situations. They really just like, Oh, I'm a wimp. I can't handle my own stuff and or Why am I crying still and all that? So there is a validation when that someone else does that. And you talked about boundaries? I think it has to do with boundaries. And I think the misconception of boundaries is that they have to be rigid, or they're bad. And I tell people, no, there's three types of boundaries. There's a rigid boundary, there is a flexible boundary. And then there's a porous boundaries. This is not my own stuff. This is a someone else brought that up. So I'm not taking credit for it. But I think that being a therapist, learning to have flexible boundaries, not crossing any lines, but flexible boundaries, that includes what use you talked about, and I don't know if you agree with that. You said it wasn't about boundaries. I tend to disagree. I think it is about boundaries, because we are we have to be somewhat flexible.

Rachel Chatham: 20:57

I agree with you. I like the three I like the three but I hadn't heard that before. But I like to think,

Steve Bisson: 21:02

oh, it's mine. But if you've never heard it, then it's fine.

Rachel Chatham: 21:07

Yeah, I mean, I think I agree with you. Flexibility is sort of the name of the game, right? We're trying to adapt how we are based on what the client is really needing and what's going to be most effective for them. And so I think that's part of it. That's part of the healing process.

Steve Bisson: 21:25

And I think that I use different language, but I try to keep it as non swearing here as I can on my podcast, but you know, sometimes people will say stuff, and they're like flat about something that's pretty horrendous. And I go, Oh, that's screwed up. And usually that elicits a strong response. And I think that it's okay for us to say that because some people minimize really terrible stuff, especially when you talk about relationship stuff.

Rachel Chatham: 21:51

Absolutely. And I like to incorporate as much swearing, as is comfortable for my clients. I'm happy to take that, take that and run with it if I have a client who enjoys that. And similarly, with a flat aspect, I think there's there's lots of ways to get in there and sort of reflect that back where, yeah, like, what are you feeling as you're telling me that horrifying story with absolutely no. visual expression is the go to for me.

Steve Bisson: 22:20

There's two signs in my office. One of them says maybe swearing will help. And then I have another sign that says swearing. I call him sentence enhancers.

Rachel Chatham: 22:30

I love them both.

Steve Bisson: 22:32

So so great. Unfortunately, the episode before yours, I think that is the I always very careful about not swearing. That one I probably swore more times than I can ever recall and like 39 episodes before that. So I'm going to try to make up for that too on this side. But I agree with you, I think, what do you think that swearing helps you talk about flat ethic? Do you think it helps in other ways for

Rachel Chatham: 22:55

clients? Yeah, like a sentence enhancer? I think that really captures that. I don't know if your George Carlin fan or familiar familiar with his work. But what he did for the F word, let's say I think really, he really showed us how many different uses and how it can really, you know, add to what we're saying there's so much emotion in swear words. And also I'm not sure if you're familiar, some research was done about when we're experiencing physical pain, right? If we swear, it reduces the physical pain that we experience, which is, I mean, science, you gotta love that.

Steve Bisson: 23:39

Well, I've heard also that people who swear tend to be more authentic. That's a research and we must be like this than cousins or something. Because on my wall, it's a it's a take on George Carlin. It's called the seven dirty words in Steve's office. And the seven dirty words or if but try coulda, shoulda, woulda, probably. And that's because they're all conditionals. So I am with George Carlin fan and I took a little bit of his seven dirty words and put in my own thing. So I agree 100% About your your swearing and my work with first responders and medical personnel and correctional staff. It's always funny because they'll swear and like, Oh, is that okay? I've worked in a jail. I've worked with police, parole, probation, you name it. Yeah, you can swear I think I can handle it.

Rachel Chatham: 24:32

That's so great. That's so great. You know, because then people can really be themselves to with you. That authenticity piece. I think that is real.

Steve Bisson: 24:41

And I think that that's where I wrote down when you start talking about like, you know, when we have shame, we can't be authentic. So sometimes even using different language, including swears, do you think that can help also lift that shame a little bit, too?

Rachel Chatham: 24:56

I think that possibilities there certainly exists Oh, yeah. Yeah.

Steve Bisson: 25:02

Because I think that sometimes my people who don't know me and start with me to go, you know that some of them like now you can finish your sentence, I'm fine with that. It's just you're talking here. And because shame also keeps us from saying stuff. So, when you said shame and swearing, yeah, it's all in my wheelhouse.

Rachel Chatham: 25:23

Yeah, yeah. So interesting.

Steve Bisson: 25:25

I was gonna ask you about you go from going to a therapist. To go. Maybe this could be my future. I was wondering, did you end up doing that for your senior year, your junior year? Did you end up kind of like, going This feels good. This feels too real. Because sometimes, you know, people go into psychology and and they hear the real stuff behind it. And you're like, Oh, crap. I don't know how was how your experience was?

Rachel Chatham: 25:54

Yeah, no, I got into it after a semester as an elementary education major. And coming to find that that was not my passion project. I quickly got into psychology and I ate it up. I loved it. I particularly liked abnormal psychology, that was probably my favorite. But I did I ended up pursuing. After a few years in the working world, I ended up going back to get my masters which is actually when I had my kind of next stint in therapy as a part of my master's program, we had to spend one year in weekly psycho psychodynamic psychotherapy. And so I enlisted with a male therapist was in my mid 20s, maybe 2627. And I think at that point, I was really, like, help me, I was like dealing with depression, I had a trajectory now, so I was a little bit on firmer ground. But I really needed him to help for me to sort out my life and my psyche. And luckily, I got a great therapist, and it was the best experience to date that I have had in therapy, I would say the things that worked really well about that are that he sort of held space for me like a champ. Like even when I just needed to come in and cry. He could just be in the room and be like a steady male presence, which I really needed. And, you know, he he did a lot of pushing me out of my comfort zone, just methodically, nearly it felt like nearly every session, he was having me do an empty chair, he was having me do meditation, he was having me do guided imagery. At one point, he was holding up a pillow and I was punching him and just all of these things that I just I think I never, I never would have done, he kind of supported me to get some of my feelings out in these various ways. And that ended up overall working well. I was a pretty resistant client at that time. But it ended up working pretty well. And and there even came a point in the therapy with him when I was kind of able to talk about the therapeutic relationship we had had like a rupture. And I was able to bring it up to him. And that's impressive. Yeah, I mean, I think for anyone, I'm always so impressed when someone can do that. And when I think about my like little 27 year old self who was just so struggling, I'm so proud of me that I was able to say that didn't feel good. And it was amazing to me that he was able to respond and he was able to take accountability and he was able to make changes with me going forward. And that far and above. Better than any technique he used. Totally life changing for me, generating some secure attachment with him. But I'm still to this day really grateful for that particular experience.

Steve Bisson: 28:59

That sounds like he brought you through every single possible thought process of therapy. He did your Raj Aryan therapy. He did your Gestalt therapy, probably did a little bit of psychoanalytic theory and most CBT it's kind of interesting that he was able to put all that in what a year worth worth of sessions and maintaining a rupture.

Rachel Chatham: 29:21

Yep, yep, that's right. He he brought it all he was really interesting therapist, he actually he and a fellow therapist of his every year twice a year would take clients who were interested on vision quests. So I ended up doing two vision quest experiences with him as well. So in addition to all that you mentioned, we're also doing this kind of like Native American ritual, kind of a transition ritual that I've got to do with him a few times. So there was it was it was packed.

Steve Bisson: 29:53

Wait a minute, that is not shown scientifically to work. How would you do that?

Rachel Chatham: 29:59

Yeah. Yeah, yeah, I feel like this is good. This is a good place for us where where it actually, you know, both yay science and also sometimes well, you know, science, because science is not the only. Not everything is proven by science in this world of healing and yet so much still works.

Steve Bisson: 30:18

Feel free to swear, I didn't say you couldn't swear I said I couldn't clarify. I've got to make up for my episode before this one. So that's all. Gotcha. You know, it's interesting, because I think that everything you just said made perfect sense. Because I, again, wish I had my notes in front of me in that way. But a few episodes ago, I said, You know what the most effective therapy is in the world. The therapeutic alliance?

Rachel Chatham: 30:49

Period. Yeah, the

Steve Bisson: 30:50

CBT might be slightly better for mood disorders. But ultimately, it's that therapeutic alliance in the therapeutic world that you bring into your therapy. And it sounds like you and him really had that going in the vision quest. You know, I had had a vision of you going down to South America and having ayahuasca and doing all that fun stuff. So that's why when you sit Native American, I'm like, Oh, okay.

Rachel Chatham: 31:15

Nice. Yeah. No, it wasn't exactly that kind of vision quest, but it was it was in the desert, and Joshua Tree and Mount Shasta out in California, and, but really profound experiences. And I agree with you. Yeah, it's it's the Alliance, it's the relationship that heals, you know, that is the consistently proven. Again, if we want to go back to science, we could, that's what works. The relationship is what works to help the change people.

Steve Bisson: 31:44

But I think that, you know, I will paraphrase, I will phrase exactly as you said, science. My experience, I think that when you think about therapy, we are a medical profession, psychotherapy, private practice, whatever you want to call it this week, I really don't care. But I think that what we we tend to forget is that we have a medical privilege to have a very intimate relationship with our clients. And if you don't respect it as an intimate relationship that has a lot of like, exchanges, then I think that you're not respecting with therapy does.

Rachel Chatham: 32:19

I agree with you, I think there's a lot of power in the therapeutic relationship, maybe more so then any other doctor client, doctor patient relationship, because as you said, there is so much exposure, and we're, we're getting together once a week typically, so that we can build a relationship so we can build trust and safety and, you know, start to make repairs for you know, whatever got lost as a result of whatever trauma happened. So, yeah, it's a powerful relationship.

Steve Bisson: 32:51

Listening to finding your way through therapy CB, so here's listening to Rachel chat I'm talking about, I feel like I have my long lost sister somehow here. You know, I like to quote Kristen Bell to my clients, Kristen Bell had a therapist. And it's in when they talk about how long does it take to get better and all that. And Kristen bells therapist once said, You can't expect to walk five miles into a forest and get out into. And so I always remind people, like, if you've been fighting this for 20 years, I'm not fixing that in six weeks. I'm good. I ain't that good. And most people laugh about that just like you do. And they like, it makes sense. But I think that, that sometimes there is people who come in with expectations of, you know, my insurances, they'll pay for 12 sessions. So you know, fix me in 12 sessions. And even if you don't have that, it's like, okay, I have like, $1,500, that's good for 10 sessions, fix me in 10 sessions. How do we kind of like, nicely debunked that craziness?

Rachel Chatham: 33:56

I love that Kristen Bell is such an advocate for therapy, and that she quotes her therapists pretty regularly as well. You know, I think again, it kind of goes back to that idea of like, psycho education, I think her quote was a great quote. And, you know, we don't fix a lifetime worth of trauma in eight quick sessions. But we're, I feel like in the country that we live in, we have grown accustomed to quick fixes, and things that we can kind of like, get in, get out. And I just, I, it's rare for me that I have a client that I see for, let's say, three months, that ends the therapy at three months and says, I got everything I needed. Perfect. We're good to go. It's rare.

Steve Bisson: 34:40

I would have had the book that you have to write if you could do that. And eight sessions. I'm like, I want to buy that book, putting the first thing in line, I will want to get that book.

Rachel Chatham: 34:49

Wouldn't we all

Steve Bisson: 34:51

Yeah, and I think that that's, you know, when people ask me, Well, how come and I say, Well, how long did it take you when you break a bone of any kind of new By takes half a second, maybe two seconds if it's really painful, but you still have to be in a cast for six to eight weeks. So something that took two seconds is going to take eight weeks to heal. You've been doing this behavior for blank amount of time, why aren't you giving me at least that blank amount of time to kind of like process it? This is just how it works. No one questions and being in a cast for eight weeks for a broken blank. But you know, I've been in sessions for eight weeks, I'll come I'm not better. No, it takes six months, roughly, before you start feeling good. And it's not six months, or three times a week. But maybe that's what you need. Sometimes it's every other week, but don't expect a lot of change if you haven't worked on it hard enough. And I bring that to my therapy too. Because I having been in therapy myself, probably since 20, naneghat, my license 2728. I've been in therapy since then. And negative outcomes with clients, stuff like that, obviously start to affect you. So I've been in therapy since then off and on. And I bring my experience in therapy, to my clients. And I sometimes even share some of the stuff I've been through, just to help kind of like negate like, my clients usually say that makes you human. And I really appreciate that. What have you brought from your experience in therapy into your therapeutic relationship with your clients,

Rachel Chatham: 36:23

I think I think actually bring a lot from my experiences of my own therapy, like anything from kind of the most logistical things like having been in a what felt like a dirty and cluttered therapy office as a client that kept me kind of preoccupied. I just try and keep a really clean, clear office space so that people can feel comfortable, and they often will comment on that to me. You know, we talked about boundaries, things like communication, I try not to have any distractions. In my sessions. I once saw a therapist who listen, pets are great, you know, I have a cat love them. Dogs are great. She had her dog in every session. And she wanted me to engage with her dog at the outset of every session. And I'm coming to her like a people pleaser a self sacrifice or so yeah, you want to talk about your dog for five to 10 minutes of our session, okay, like, I'll do that. But that's not why I was there. Or, you know, I saw someone whose office was in their home at one time. And I remember their husband walking through the corridors as I'm sitting in the living room with her and just thinking like, oh, I don't feel safe at all here now. So I mean, just these like very fundamental things, you know, no distractions I want my clients know, they have my full attention. If a client tells me, you know, there's a rupture, we could talk about it, I'm always trying to take responsibility, accountability, make changes, if they want it to be more like this, I try and do more of that. And you know, another thing that I will say, with my, my therapist out in California was, I'm actually quite comfortable as a therapist pushing people out of their comfort zones. Because I know that sometimes experiential stuff is just exactly the kind of shift that they need. So I will do a fair amount of that I try and do it with empathy. And with you know, we can always stop at any time. But I feel like my experiences as a client have really informed my experiences as a clinician, I don't know, if I, I do use self disclosure, which I think is kind of what you're what you're alluding to, I try and be really, of course mindful about it. I try to really kind of choose where I'm going to share and with whom. But if there is, there is a moment, when I actually was meeting with a client yesterday, we're talking about religion. And I live in the south, of course in North Carolina. And I ended up letting my client know about my, my religious background, which is not something that I think she would have ever asked, or I would have ever brought up if we were not already talking about religion and how it plays itself out in her practice with what she does. So I do use self disclosure some as well.

Steve Bisson: 39:29

And I'm sure you've heard this 100 times, you know, by Mind, Body Spirit, and I talked about spirituality with my clients. I disclosed that I'm I practice Buddhism, I also sometimes disclosed and I'm a recovering Catholic. I've finally you know, I still use Jesus Christ and God once in a while, but I also tell people that I've also re conciliated my relationship with that type of spirituality because I think all spirituality has value. I don't know if I use disclosures as you know, freely, but sometimes I feel it's important kind of like, relatable for clients? Because I think that one of the things that I talked about self disclosure, my clients, or that I've had for a long time are always laughing because they say, I know if I asked you how you're doing, you're going to answer honestly. And I'm like, I am asking you for honesty. Therefore I if you tell me, how are you doing, and I'm not doing good, I'm like, bad. And I think that it's, I use self disclosure as a way to kind of like, not tell people my own stuff. But to really kind of like, model the behavior. Authenticity, right? Because, you know, recently was, was like, my relationship didn't work out that I thought was gonna work out. And that was like, two minutes before my client was coming online. So my client comes online, she's like, how are you? I'm like, I really don't know.

Rachel Chatham: 40:58

And fair and love

Steve Bisson: 40:59

did disclose everything, just weird phone call, but thank you for asking. And we're hearing about you. And yeah, so I think that I use self disclosure as a way to kind of like, be authentic, be myself. But I don't go, oh, my gosh, you have a 30 minute session for me. I think there's a huge difference between the two. But I don't know if you agree or not?

Rachel Chatham: 41:20

I do. Yeah, of course, I think absolutely. You know, if there's something going on with me, you know, our clients are so perceptive again, you know, kind of goes back to that relationship. If there's something going on with me, and I'm not copping to it, they're gonna know. So I might as well just cough and say, Yeah, you know, my knee is sore today, or my, you know, whatever, I'm tired. I did not get enough sleep last night. So bear with me today or whatever.

Steve Bisson: 41:47

This is only my first cup of coffee. I need three more before I get in the good mood. Exactly. Here's, here's my addiction tendencies, I guess. But yeah, I think that, you know, you talk about a lot of good stuff that you bring into your relationship and the therapeutic alliance with your clients. What if there's a budding therapists listening here? And saying, Oh, my God, I don't know if I can ever talk about myself. Or if I could talk, you know, bring what I learned from my own therapy to a session? What type of advice would you have for them?

Rachel Chatham: 42:21

I would say get supervision around self disclosure, because I think when used well, it can be really a powerful tool. But when overused, it can be really detrimental. So and I think someone starting out is not going to know this sort of this is a generalization not everyone's starting out is gonna know the nuance of when might this be appropriate? And when might this just be me trying to make them comfortable? Or me trying to make me comfortable? Or what is there an MO? You know, is there an ulterior motive to this?

Steve Bisson: 42:56

Right. And I think that the, I have a client who happens to be a social worker who asked me, you do self disclosure really well. I said, You never disclose something you haven't resolved? Yes. If you haven't resolved that no one should know about.

Rachel Chatham: 43:12

I agree wholeheartedly.

Steve Bisson: 43:13

I mean, your therapist should know about it, and maybe your friends, but ultimately, not your clients. So you know, when I talk about great supervision, I think that's a great idea. But my clients are like, oh, so when you talk about that, yeah, cuz if I'm not resolved, and I make it about me, what the hell does that say about our relationship?

Rachel Chatham: 43:30

Well, then it just energetically, you're kind of putting like a blob on the table, and then it's just there. You know, I agree with you. Don't bring it up. If it's not resolved.

Steve Bisson: 43:44

I think that that's my advice. And I wanted to hear yours. And I think yours is absolutely great. Thank you. Is there anything else that you would say to someone about if you've been in therapy before you and you've become a therapist, a psychotherapist, a social worker? I mean, I'm not trying to discount anyone here. Sure. Is there other advice that you would have for them?

Rachel Chatham: 44:05

Yeah, I think when we think back on our experiences, and in therapy, I think use use that experience of what felt good to you. Did your therapist make you feel safe? Great. What is it that they did that made you feel safe? Did they not make you feel safe? What was that about? I feel like we learned in absentia, as much as we learn in a straightforward way of wanting to emulate what someone else did. So I think take that experience and anything from like I said, What did the office feel like to you to where was their attention? You know, another therapist I saw for a while was a union analyst who wrote during our entire sessions and I don't know what your style is even I think anyone can do. I think people can use different methods and working with folks but for me to have someone I'm there feeling my heart out. She's writing everything I say, not even making eye contact with me. That for me was like, awful. That was really bad. So now I don't do that, you know, there's one session where I'm writing and I tried to be really clear with my clients. I'm gonna be writing this is not typical. Please bear with me. I'm trying to do a history taking. I'm trying to catch up with you. Otherwise, it's you and me. I'm right here with you all time.

Steve Bisson: 45:29

My smartass answer for your therapists who was a young man, I said, Is this your social mass for you not to deal with me? But anyway, that's my smartass answer for that. Totally,

Rachel Chatham: 45:39

totally. What is this persona?

Steve Bisson: 45:40

Right? You're Why are you putting on a persona? Because you ask. And again, I'm trying to be as honest as I possibly can. And frankly, it's my podcast, I'll do whatever I want. I don't always take notes. But I have found that maybe in the last three years, my memory wasn't the same as when I was 27. So sometimes I'll be like, I can't write this down. I'm gonna forget this was good. Because there's days where I wrote nothing. And it happens a lot like today, I would say that I think I wrote with one client, that's about it, just because there was a good process going on. But I didn't go like my eyes down. You can't see it on here, because there's no camera, but I didn't keep my eyes down, I put my eyes up, try to keep eye contact as much as I can. So I think that you can develop whatever style but most of my clients and you confirmed it. I had a client of mine who said that, that he had a therapist who sat there with his laptop in his lab. And while they were talking, oh, dear. And I'm like, Okay, I'm bad, because I have to write a few notes. I hope I've never done that. Yeah. And, of course, everyone has their own styles. And that's okay. And I want to be respectful of that. But to me that therapeutic alliance cannot be that good if your eyes are on the screen or on a piece of paper at all times. So, and again, it's my podcast, and you seem to agree with me. So hey, we'll do whatever the hell I want. So I appreciate all that. And I gotta go on the other like curiosity thing, because I am so fascinated by other parts that you've talked about. You talked about something about you like the history of relationship, Trump, you talked about how was probably your own stuff that brought you there? Can you tell people who don't know what that is a little more about what does that mean? Because I kind of know that I think that I always want to assume that people may be curious about what that means.

Rachel Chatham: 47:35

Yeah, absolutely. So when I think about relational trauma, I just think about the, essentially the wounds that occur in our relationships, I think of, I don't know if you're familiar with Pete Walker's book, complex PTSD. But that's essentially what we're talking about is complex trauma, the trauma that takes place over time, as opposed to being like an acute trauma, which it sounds like, actually, you've done a fair amount of work with acute trauma. And folks with, you know, first responders and things that, of course, for them, it becomes chronic, because they're in that line of work. And that was one thing after another after another. But when I'm talking about it, I'm thinking about the clients I work with, are doing things now as adults, out of habits that got formed when they were really little, because their parent was not able to meet their early emotional needs, for whatever reason, right. So our parents are really well intentioned, and yet, there's very few of them who are perfect. I would say 00 of them are perfect.

Steve Bisson: 48:45

I'm not perfect, and I'm okay with that. Thank you.

Rachel Chatham: 48:47

Same i to Brian, my name is Rachel. I'm a parent of three boys. Imperfect parents. Right. Exactly. So and yet the there are core emotional needs that all kids have. And when those needs don't get met, again, and again, and again. And again. It's a trauma. You know, there's neglect there. There can be emotional neglect, there can be physical neglect. Sometimes there was abuse. So there are families that get split up. There are there are so many things that can happen, you know, moves can be traumatic, getting bullied can be traumatic. So many of these things occur in our early lives that that all do constitute over time. This kind of like, I want to say like slow drip, trauma, as opposed to the whole the whole fosse that is on, you know,

Steve Bisson: 49:40

I think when I hear you say that parental education comes to mind immediately. Yes. And I think and maybe it's a northeast thing, but I think it's pretty across the board thing. But you know what, what we used to call latchkey kids. Yes. And there's no disparaging remarks here and I'm not trying to pick Can anyone and if anyone who knows me knows I pick on everyone equally. So I think that that's a little bit of what I heard, you know, complex trauma. I can't wait for the powers that be at APA start recognizing it as a diagnosis. I have a good friend of mine. She was on the show too. And she talks about complex PTSD. And she's like, and I said, I hate to be scientific right now. But until we kind of like have it in the books, I believe in it, it doesn't mean it doesn't exist. I just can't wait for it to be approved. Because I think that that's the stuff that I can't wait to see what we can do with that word. But I also have, again, my current notion on March 10 2022, this is not the day you're going to hear the podcast, but this is the day we're recording. I don't think that the treatment will be much different than PTSD. There'll be complex, but it won't be as you know, it's not going to we're going to discover like Ayahuasca treats Complex PTSD significantly better than simple PTSD. So, yeah, that's,

Rachel Chatham: 51:09

that's an interesting idea. The ayahuasca, maybe the Ayahuasca idea. Yeah, I mean, this is gonna be the new thing.

Steve Bisson: 51:18

But no, I think that. The other thing I tell my first responders is that, you know, some of them are older, some of them are younger, I kind of explained to them, I said, trauma and your job is not the first trauma you see. It's the 27th one that really triggers you. And it's realizing that you can call it complex PTSD. And then again, fine with that. I tell people that trauma is not just like the first one triggers you and everything is from that sometimes it's going to be like, one of them just triggers everything from your past. And I don't know if you find that plays a role in relational trauma. I misspoke earlier. So I do apologize for that.

Rachel Chatham: 51:54

Yeah, no problem. I think just to clarify, I don't I don't know if if this makes sense, or will answer your question. But I think the impression I get with complex trauma is that it is more about childhood experiences than adulthood experiences. And I think to answer your question, that people who become first responders become first responders for a reason, like people who become therapists become therapists for a reason. And you're right, when that 27 acute trauma where they're seeing something absolutely horrifying, or needing to deal with something horrifying hits, I think there can be a cascade of effect of well, not only was this really intense, but oh my gosh, you know, maybe there's more than ends up coming up from their history as they're exposed to more and more tragedy.

Steve Bisson: 52:44

And I will look up that book, because I'm very interesting, because it may be my own perception, my own and again, this is not scientific, it's talking about complex trauma. I always I didn't see a distinction between, you know, maybe you have a happy childhood, everything goes well, you have a happy everything. But then you take on a job that causes significant trauma. And you know, there's occupational trauma. I think that right now the world is going through complex trauma in general, when we go from a pandemic to a war that just makes no sense for a significant amount of people, and how that can be triggering from past experiences for particularly the first responders and military personnel. So I think that for me, again, not knowing and I appreciate the clarification, I always thought that complex trauma can be both, but I could be absolutely wrong.

Rachel Chatham: 53:33

Yeah, I feel like, I feel like Pete Walker kind of it, I highly recommend the book. And I feel like he he's really, he dives into it. And honestly, it's been a few years since I read it. So he might he'll provide a more comprehensive definition. But yeah, I mean, I think we are in a collective, we are in a collective trauma with the pandemic and the war. I mean, it's on Unreal. Well,

Steve Bisson: 53:59

again, finding your way through therapy. I'm sitting here, Rachel Chatham. I'm Stevie. So, you know, it's almost been an hour already. I don't know about you, but it flew by again. It's just a great conversation. I have about 12 Other questions for you. So I'm going to try to keep it as easy as I can. I will be getting Pete's book because I really want to know, I really want to read more about that. We talked about trauma therapy. We did Buddhist psychology. I again, my podcast I decide where we talk about as a practicing Buddhists, who has found that very helpful to get through a lot of difficulties that have been happening in my life. I didn't even know that existed Buddhist psychology. So thank you for that. How does that look in therapy? Sorry, I'm just curious. We don't know what else is here.

Rachel Chatham: 54:54

Now it's a good question. And I'll say, you know, I think my understanding when I got my Buddhist psychology certificate. My school my graduate school was only the second in the country to offer any Buddhist psychology certificate programs or master's programs. Second to the school in Colorado whose name I can't think of right now. But I, when I was doing my, my grad school, has my grad school experience, one of my teachers was Buddhist, and she, I she was one of my favorite teachers, I loved her so much. Shout out to Amy, Amy K in California, and

Steve Bisson: 55:32

you're gonna say P Masha drone and Amanda? No, no, no, no, you can't

Rachel Chatham: 55:38

love you know, it was it was Amy who sort of really introduced this idea of like, well, if, you know, we had her students were really interested. So she ended up creating this certificate program and, and basically teaching us how can we, how can we have this dance within ourselves about the nature of you know, suffering and compassion and the human conditioning? And how can just having that perspective, change the way we show up in the therapy room. And so that was, that was a really, a really important thing for me to come to, to understand. I think it does kind of change the way I show up with my clients, in one way it shows up is that I teach my clients how to be mindful, how to be more self aware how to meditate, you know, how can we drop our awareness deep, deep inside? When we are living here at the surface level all the time, or externally, I should say externally. So that more than anything else? Yeah, I would say that more than anything else is is a huge game changer for so many clients, you know, just becoming aware of what's happening in my body as I'm fighting with my partner? Or is there an image of some memory that's actually coming up? As I think about this situation with my career? Is this old? Is this familiar? But it's just this thing scratching?

Steve Bisson: 57:08

And I didn't know what you were getting to say. So I didn't want to cloud? Your answer. One of my clients recently asked me, How do you practice that in your therapy. And I said, because I worked with in crisis team, because I worked with the police because I've worked with different places. I've learned that the only important person in my life is the person in front of me. Because tomorrow is not given not even the next hour is given. And you know, being present in the moment is a very Buddhist principle that I think has helped me just ground myself. So I'm not thinking about and, you know, knock on wood, this is not happening. But the suicide, the homicide, the overdose of that happened a day, a week, a month before that. I'm just in front of you know, right now, the most important person in my life is Rachel, because I'm talking to Rachel and this is not, you know, it's not about pedestals. It's not about anything else. But you're in front of me. I can't do anything about my friend in Canada right now. I just can't, but Rachel's here, we're gonna do my best to just be present for her. So that's why I thought you were gonna say that about Buddhist psychology, but I didn't want to like that's how I practice through my work my spirituality as well as being therapeutic.

Rachel Chatham: 58:24

Yeah, that's so great. And it's such a great point is that we really only have this present moment. And, you know, we only are with who we're with in that moment. You know, even these ideals of like impermanence, reminding myself reminding them you know, this is an impermanent situation, or how can we bring compassion to this really hard thing, the shame or this guilt or this regret? or So there's so much there's so much there that just blends so nicely with the whole therapeutic experience and relationship teaching people law, what does it look like if I'm, how am I supposed to be compassionate with myself, you know, and then we do that. We just take up practices and things just sort of, gosh, bring a little gentleness, bring some internal kindness and some loving compassion in here and not always for the people out there. actually bring it home, bring it home. And it's there's so many great tools just in those practices.

Steve Bisson: 59:27

And I think about the Eightfold Path, as a way like, I have that in my office I have in my own house. And some clients like that seems easy. I'm like, Alright, tell me how many times you do it in the next week, and we'll talk and I'm like,I think I practice it pretty well and it's really really, really hard.

Rachel Chatham: 59:48

So simple, but not easy, right? Isn't that a very off and off used Buddhist sentiment? It's simple but not easy.

Steve Bisson: 59:58

Right? So No, I really appreciate that answer. And it's good to know that, you know, we have that in common. The other thing I want to finish on to is you talked about writing. Obviously, you we tried to segue to that I know you were but you know, writing is so helpful for, for me, I love writing my book. I write every day, started a book with, which has like a one phrase prop, and I got to write a whole page on it, which has been very helpful to me recently, in my own life. I journal and I've journal off and on since 92. Yes, that tells you everyone's you know, my age, most of you if you've listened to more than one episode, you know, my age. I've been 29 for 17 years. Thank you very much.

Rachel Chatham: 1:00:42

We're pretty close in age then actually. Are you about? About 46?

Steve Bisson: 1:00:46

I'm exactly 46. Okay, I'm

Rachel Chatham: 1:00:48

44. So not not too far out. Yeah.

Steve Bisson: 1:00:51

So yeah, so you know exactly what I, but we both look like we are in our 20s, of course. So that's what I think. Yeah. Oh, no,

Rachel Chatham: 1:01:00

of course,

Steve Bisson: 1:01:01

I want to hear more about your writing. And I told you a little bit about how I use it. But I want to know, like, what do you do? Do you write for yourself? Do you write to create for other people? How is your writing influenced your

Rachel Chatham: 1:01:12

life? Yeah, well, I do have have had, I've had a long history of journaling. Over the past, I would say, five or six years, I kind of got back into writing for pleasure, took a few local writing classes at our community college, and then some of our other local writing programs. And I think what I find that I like the most really are things like memoir writing and essay writing and writing about the experience of being a therapist, I think I, you know, as part of that effort toward normalization, I would like to continue to sort of demystify the experience for people through writing so that they can come to better understand some of these concepts. We're talking about, like, complex trauma, like what is how do you do self compassion? What does that actually look like in the therapy room, but to do it in a way that's, that's kind of entertaining that I get to bring all of my parts forward? For, you know, the, the entertainer part, the part of me that likes being kind of funny. And so yeah, I mean, right now I'm, I've, I've written a few things, I've had a few things published, like in literary journals, I've published some things on medium and on elephant journal, I like to write about the human condition, the human can, I mean, if I had to sum it up, that would be my, my big passion project is kind of commentating on this human condition and the dynamics that occur in relationships, which fascinate me endlessly.

Steve Bisson: 1:02:45

Well, if you want to personally send me those, I would love to read them, number one. Number two, if you want me to share it with our audience, I will put the link in our show notes for that, too.

Rachel Chatham: 1:02:55

Cool. I appreciate that. I think everything that I have published, is all linked to on my website, which I will share, what's your website. So I actually have two, two websites on my private practice website is full self therapy.com. That would be for folks who actually want to work one on one with me doing psychotherapy. And then my other website is called the skillful self, which I think you could appreciate that the name of coming from that skillful ways of the Eightfold Path. And on the skillful self, I have a few different offerings, I think, on my homepage is where I have links to all the writing I've ever done, as well as my other podcast, I'll be adding this one there. And then I have two courses actually online that I created on the skillful self. One of them is called the father fix. And that one is a four week course on healing the father wound, and I use, you know, CBT techniques, I use schema therapy techniques, I use Buddhist psychology techniques in that one, particularly for people who have struggled in their relationships with their fathers. And then the other course I have is sort of like a mini course, it's on working with your inner child. And it's called initiating the connection and initiating kind of connection with the inner child. So those are my kind of offerings there.

Steve Bisson: 1:04:19

And what I'll do is they'll be linked in the show notes. So for those who want to go directly, obviously can do that. Anywhere else can you be reached other than your two websites?

Rachel Chatham: 1:04:28

No, that's it. And thank you so much for your willingness to put that info in the show notes.

Steve Bisson: 1:04:34

Oh, no problem. And I gotta tell you, if it were up to me, we'd be talking another hour about Buddhism. Awesome. Yeah. I gotta, I gotta control myself. But if you want to, I'm hoping to have you know, it's not going to be canceled by anything. So you know, hopefully season five, season six, I'd love to have you back on. And we can have a longer conversation about that too, as well. As you know, I'm going to inform myself more about complex trauma and because again, therapists are humans, and they don't know everything, just for the record for everyone. That's true. And I'm okay with not knowing everything. I hope I continue not to know everything. But I would love to have you back on this was Rachel, it's not, you know, sometimes people say that on a whim. And they say that for being nice and all that. Truly, Rachel, like I said, I feel like I lost a long lost sister.

Rachel Chatham: 1:05:25

Oh, I'm so glad this is yeah, this was a blast. And I would be happy to come back and talk more about, you know, Buddhist psychology and how we do that in the therapy room. And, yeah, keep me posted on where things go here.

Steve Bisson: 1:05:38

It is a fascinating subject that a lot of clients have asked me about. I have people from this audience who have asked me questions, and I think that there would be a lot of people to be interesting. So yes, we will definitely do this again.

Rachel Chatham: 1:05:52

Oh, that's great. Yeah. I'm like, oh, maybe people can send in their questions, and we can sort of answer them together. That would be fun.

Steve Bisson: 1:05:59

I think that we're gonna leave it on that because that is an excellent idea. So please send me information. Obviously, you'll have Rachel's how you can reach her. We'd love to answer questions. I don't know all the answers is, Buddha did not know the all the answers either. But we'll do.

Rachel Chatham: 1:06:17

Yeah, we'll do our best. Yeah. So, Steve,

Steve Bisson: 1:06:20

thank you, Rachel. I truly appreciate it.

Rachel Chatham: 1:06:22

Yeah, my pleasure.

Steve Bisson: 1:06:24

Well, this concludes episode 41 of finding your way through therapy. Rachel Chatham, thank you so much. We had such a great conversation talking about therapy, how it was for you how it is for your clients and what we can do. We talked about complex PTSD and looking forward to reading a book by Peter. We talked about Buddhist psychology, which is a great thing. I really truly was fascinated. I hope. When you come back we will talk about that. We talked about relationship trauma, and relational trauma, parental education, shame, and really a lot of good stuff that needed to be addressed. And I hope that you enjoyed it as much as I did. Episode 42 will be with Bethany Amatucci. Bethany, someone I've known for a long time. We have a great story. I hope we get to it at the interview. I don't know if we will or not, but I certainly hope we do. She is a coach. And does also I think is going to become a yoga instructor if she is not one as of right now. So I hope you'll join us for the next episode. Please like, subscribe or follow this podcast on your favorite platform. A glowing review is always helpful. And as a reminder, this podcast is for information, educational, and entertainment purposes. If you're struggling with a mental health or substance abuse issue, please reach out to a professional counselor or therapist for consultation.