E.57 Why Your Burn-Out Badge Of Honor Is Wrong With Stephanie Simpson

In this episode, first time guest Stephanie Simpson discusses a variety of subjects, including stress, burnout, and trauma. Throughout the interview, Stephanie discusses how all these things can be addressed through a variety of techniques. Stephanie also discusses how authenticity has a huge part in our trauma-informed ways, as well as the connection to the mind-body-spirit can benefit us. Stephanie also discusses her dance and movement work with a wide variety of clients and how it has assisted them in ways that go beyond therapy, including their relationships, as well as their work.

Stephanie shared her experiences in therapy, including her experience in the entertainment industry, sports treatment.   She also discusses her work on trauma-informed leadership and conscious leadership. Stephanie also talks about how having more choices can lead to a better self and how she incorporates all of the above in her Leadership Workshops. 

Stephanie can be reached via her website here.

Her Instagram account can be found here and her Facebook account can be accessed here.

Transcript

Steve Bisson: 0:01

Hi and welcome to finding your way through therapy. I am your host, Steve Bisson. I'm an author and mental health counselor. Are you curious about therapy? Do you feel there is a lot of mystery about there? Do you wonder what your therapist is doing and why? The goal of this podcast is to make therapy and psychology accessible to all by using real language and straight to the point discussions. This podcast wants to remind you to take care of your mental health, just like you would your physical health. therapy should not be intimidating. It should be a great way to better help. I will demystify what happens in counseling, discuss topics related to mental health and discussions you can have what your thoughts I also want to introduce psychology in everyday life. As I feel most of our lives are enmeshed in psychology. I want to introduce the subtle and not so subtle ways psychology plays a factor in our lives. It will be my own mix of thoughts as well as special guests. So join me on this discovery of therapy and psychology. Hi, and welcome to episode 57 of finding your way through therapy. I am Steve Bisson. If you haven't listened episode 56 Yet with Lisa Dennis, please do so it was an interesting conversation for sure. But episode 57 is with Stephanie Simpson and Stephanie was recommended to me by a dear colleague of mine, Courtney Romanowski. And whatever Courtney tells me basically I trust because we've known each other for so long. So wanted to talk to Stephanie and Stephanie Simpson identifies as an artist, Coach facilitator, speaker, and the author of 21 day stress management workbook, a holistic and interactive guide to redefining your relationship to stress. Drawing on her background in movement, meditation, trauma and psychology. She partners with people and businesses and organizations to achieve their greatest potential by nurturing the connection between the mind body and spirit. Definitely something up my alley. skill that holding space so that people in businesses can get clear on their purpose and aligned purpose with their goals. Stephanie empowers her clients to live courageously to the fullest by created communities, workplace cultures that are human centric and trauma informed while fostering and valuing employee wellness and sustainability. I'm looking forward to this conversation. I know we're going to talk about businesses, we're going to talk about consulting. And we're also going to talk a little bit of movement as well as how to use that in our day to day life. So here's the interview. Well, Hi, and welcome to episode 57 of finding your way through therapy. It also episode seven on YouTube as I've just started to put him on YouTube. So I'm very excited about that. But more importantly, I'm excited to meet Stephanie Simpson Stephanie is someone that was recommended to a dear friend of mine who works in the same office as me. And she spoke so highly of her and I read her bio, I got some information from her. But that's not for me to share, let her share that. But just joking with her before the interview, I was saying that we're gonna gossip about Courtney for about an hour. And that's what I'm going to tell Courtney when I do see her so but Stephanie, welcome to finding your way through therapy.

Stephanie Simpson: 3:14

Hi, thank you for having me. I'm really excited to be here.

Steve Bisson: 3:18

You're in New York, right?

Stephanie Simpson: 3:20

I am based in Manhattan. Yeah,

Steve Bisson: 3:22

I wore my since we have video night where my Boston Red Sox shirt just

Stephanie Simpson: 3:26

oh, I'm a Red Sox fan. though. I grew up in Central Connecticut. My mom was born in data. My dad in Providence. I met Courtney at Emerson College in Boston, so very much a Boston sports fan and have continued to be a Boston sports fan since living in New York.

Steve Bisson: 3:44

Well, I love the loyalty I respect the loyalty. So obviously, I read your bio, I don't we've This is the first time we've actually talked face to face. So just the same for my audience. I'd like to hear more about who you are. So tell me a little bit about yourself.

Stephanie Simpson: 4:00

Yeah, sure. So like I said, I'm based in Manhattan. And I always start my story by saying I grew up and I still am an artist, a dancer, a performer, and it was through dance and musical theater and theater in general that shaped my life. So I started dancing since I could walk. And it was a way I mean, and I know we'll get into it at some point with like therapy. I think dance was my therapy. Growing up. It was the way that I processed what I was feeling and didn't always have the words for it, but my body would be able to share and I fell in love with dance. I fell in love with musical theater and studied it throughout high school and then decided to continue to study it in college, which was started at one school and then ended up transferring to Emerson. And when I got to Emerson, not only was I doing dance and theater, but then the world of like TV and film and production also opened up for me and just storytelling in general. So I then started realizing that not only was I really in love with is the movement and what our bodies can say. But also just like storytelling and people and a lot of also just like how people got to where they are, how they navigated the challenges in their life. And I, when I graduated Emerson, I ended up moving out to LA and I lived out there for about four years working in the entertainment industry in dance and theater. And we won't get into like, all those took a lot of risks. I left a job that was like a really great full time job because I was like, No, I need to focus on my dreams of performing. And so I did that for about four years out in LA, and then decided I wanted to go to grad school. And that was a really pivotal shift in my life, because I was taking myself out of the performing world to then go back and study and I didn't know what I wanted to do at first, and I ended up applying to a bunch of different things thought I was gonna go into dance movement therapy at one point and decided that wasn't quite I wasn't quite ready for that yet. And I ended up deciding I wanted to do my Masters of Fine Arts and Dance performance and choreography. So I ended up at Smith College. So came back to these coasts, came back to Massachusetts, just a different, different area, and studied dance at the graduate level. And it was my thesis my second year that really set the foundation for the work that I'm doing now 10 years later. So I was really interested in personally, why was I not showing up to my optimal potential during like auditions, or sometimes when I was on stage. And then I started noticing that in my students in the people that were in my choreographic projects, all of that. And at the time, I was also really close with the professional basketball community, both the college level and above, and was talking with a lot of the coaches in that field and how they got their players to show up in these like really intense games. And started hearing that many of the coaches had backgrounds in psychology, many of them have masters in psychology, and that, at that level, it wasn't so much about the physical training of their players. Like that's important. Obviously, there's a reason they go to practice and do your layups and all of that. But that there was a bigger emphasis on how were you holding space and coaching the individual as well as the team and maintaining the individual nests of everybody so that the team could be more performing and high functioning. And that really excited me and got me curious and interested. And I was like, we don't talk about that in the arts world. So I ended up doing a thesis all on how do we show up optimally in high intensity situations and studied sports psychology and positive psychology and self psychology, took all of those things and brought it into the dance studio. And when I mean brought it in, like physically making movement out of narrative stories that I lead my dancers through reflection exercises, and essentially was coaching them, though, I didn't know that I that wasn't the language I used at the time, just asking a lot of questions, listening to them, reflecting back what I was hearing. And we created a whole dance about fear and our relationship with fear. And through that thesis and the work I was doing, I then started creating mental training plans for performers, and started first with dancers, and specifically high schoolers that were trying to get into dance programs or musical theater programs. And as I was teaching them dance, I was also teaching them how to build their confidence from the inside out using these sports psychology and positive psychology tools and techniques. And as I started doing that, I Oh, and the other the other side of my thesis was also how was I analyzing how I as the leader was holding the space for my dancers to be able to feel confident and safe to make mistakes, or take risks or things like that, so that they felt empowered and took ownership over the dance. Because at the end of the day, I'm not up there dancing with them. They're the ones embodying it. So the other aspects of the thesis was really looking at group development theory, situational leadership, all of those types of models. And as I continued to coach people, I also started doing workshops and guest speaking around leadership and realizing, oh, it's not just the arts world that needs this, like the things I'm talking about. Everybody needs hearing my friends, interviewing for jobs or needing to pitch clients or things like that. I was like, Oh, these are all the same stuff. How are we embodying our best self and feeling confident and comfortable to show that to other people, as well as how are we as leaders and managers, creating environments where people are encouraged and supported to do that? And so cut to like, many years later, I ended up like I continued to dance. I had a dance company for a while I was teaching at colleges I was performing and then I got hired at a private school here in New York City to build their dance program and their musical theater program and had the opportunity to continue to experiment with this the different stuff I was doing inside my classroom and Then I ended up going back to grad school again, this time, at Columbia in New York City for a master's in psychology, with an emphasis in spirituality, mind body. So a lot of my work, the beginning was about the mind body connection. And then I continue to open it up to the mind, body, spirit connection. And spirit is defined depending on who I'm working with how they define spirit. And so I continued to practice different modalities, and everything I was practicing was coming from this trauma informed lens as well. I believe that we all have had traumatic experiences, and it's through acknowledging those of different degrees of and understanding them and healing them that we then are also able to feel confident to show our true selves. So when I was teaching in the city, and then go into grad school, I started getting really curious about stress and burnout, this was back in like 2016 2017. And there was a lot of talk in our society around burnout culture, and how were we handling that. And I just noticed in the school that I was at this private school that stress was like a badge of honor. And I was like, but that can't be healthy. And what are we doing to kind of shift this? And so my whole thesis there was how are we redefining our relationship with stress from a holistic Mind, Body Spirit practice so that it's working with us and for us and not against us? And how are we doing that at the individual level, the collective level, and then like the systematic institutional level, and was afforded the opportunity to create a coaching program at the school. So I was there for eight years. And now I have my own practice consulting and coaching practice, where I work with businesses and organizations on creating more sustainable trauma informed cultures where people do feel safe to be their best self and be more high performing.

Steve Bisson: 11:57

You have said so many things in the last couple of minutes that I haven't like 27 More questions to ask. But the one thing that I want to say is that I can't tell you how refreshing it is to hear someone talk about the badge of honor being stressed, and how one of my favorite sayings is that we're human beings, not human doings. And I look at North America in general and used to be a Western Europe. It's becoming a badge of honor to be stressed and doing so much. So I mean, Bravo for the coaching idea, because that's perfect. I think we need people to start thinking about that. I don't even know where to go with my question. Other than one thing that you also really mentioned is that sometimes my body can say things that I can't say verbally. I think I get what you're saying. But let's pretend I don't. And we'll share it with the audience. What does that mean?

Stephanie Simpson: 12:53

Yeah, I really liked this that question because it just, it kind of like, it was an aha moment for me that so many parts of my life felt like at times, they weren't connected, though. I kind of felt like they were connected. I didn't know. And it's like, over the last year or two being like, oh, no, all of this makes sense. Right? So going back to stress, right? So stress is actually a physical response, our brain sounds the alarm and all that because we think that we're in a threatening situation, but we feel it in our body, right? Yes. And so I think when I was a kid, I was, and I had zero language at this tileable language I'm gonna use now I definitely didn't have there, right, my nervous system would get activated. I didn't know how to articulate that. I think it's something that we're getting better as a society having worked in the school systems of trying to do more social emotional learning and naming emotions. Though I definitely did not have that growing up. My arts classes allowed for it, but it was usually through playing a character, right. But like little Stephanie, talking about what my feelings were, that was not accessible to me, right. But I could go into my bedroom, feel all these emotions, put music on and have the music helped me to move them around, and can feel the shift, you know, in my body. So my work a lot with individuals and groups is getting them to come back to their body to understand sensation. And to know that sensation is not positive or negative. It's just a sensation, and how can we get curious with it? Though, I will say having said that, everything I do is trauma informed and having worked through my own traumas, and over the last many years, it's not always easy to be in your body that can be really scary, right? And so, I go to my head a lot, though, you know, something I work on with my therapists all the time is how can I get out of my head and then I always say, thank the universe and thank God that you've made me a dancer because I can always come back to dancing at least least and then be able to articulate what is it that I'm feeling?

Steve Bisson: 15:05

I love your explanation of what your body can say. Because as a person who is very self conscious about my dancing and my body that really helps to hear that. And I think what I would what I came up with, and I was listening to what you just said, especially at the end is that what about someone like me who may not feel like I can express my emotions through a body? Or through dance or through movement? I mean, we say dance, I like to include movement in there. And I know you use that too. But how do that?

Stephanie Simpson: 15:37

Yeah, I've so many answers to this, I first and foremost feel like everybody is a dancer, because to me dances of and this was always such a joy. When I would ask my sixth graders, what is dance? And the first couple of years, we would get certain answers. But as the years progressed, they were all seeking a way to communicate through movement. Right? So I think we have this idea, right? I was like, that was the joy of working in that way. I was just like, I don't have to do anything else anymore. And I intentionally created that sixth grade dance class to be about improvisation and their own exploration of movement, as opposed to, which I think happens a lot in our society. Oh, we go to dance class. And so you're learning a strict technique. And there's a right and there's a wrong, right. And there's a place for that there definitely is though, for me, I feel like trying to get people back to their body is creating a safe space for them to just be able to express themselves through movement that is a communication through movement. And we're doing it everyday anyway, the way in which we like say hi to somebody, right? Like the way we wave to them expresses something different. Like I know, some people will see this on video like me waving like this expresses something very different than me waving like this. Right? And so just understanding how we're engaging our body in that way, can go a long way. The other thing that came up to mind when you said that well, first is knowing that a lot of people are very self conscious about them dancing and everything like that, is where where did we pick up those those narratives? And how can we create spaces where people are just free to move without judgment? And that's the other part of things and like, I talk a lot through dance, but like, you're working in a business world where you don't have dances like something, but how are you as a leader holding and creating a safe space where people feel like they can do things and not be judged? Right? So all these concepts, though, sometimes seem heady, are very like practical in any setting. And then the other thing that came to mind was that sometimes with clients, yeah, moving their body is not maybe the thing that they want to come to first, but we can visualize things, right? So one of my favorite exercises to do with people is to get them to identify a sensation. And then really get curious about it and say what shape it is, what size it is, what color it is, what texture, is it and really tap into the five senses? Like, how would it move? Like, if you took it outside your body? And it was living in a museum? What would it look like if you walked around it? Right? So you're taking it outside yourself? And then I may ask them there. If you had to create a shape with your body that represents this, what would that be? And there is no right or wrong, because I have no idea what that sensation is right. And we've created this trust where I then get to witness it right, and I get to witness it. And that's the other part of all of this is how can we embody things and share it with people and truly be witnessed by other people?

Steve Bisson: 18:46

I think that the one thing that you really struck a nerve and made perfect sense to me is what narrative are, you're telling yourself about your dancing in your body. And I think that a lot of our narratives are based on fear where we talked about also earlier. So I thought that, you know, those are good points that you made there. I always remind people that I might have some movements when no one's listening, or watching I should say, but those are my movements. And I have a 14 year old daughter and a soon to be 12 year old daughter. Yeah, they tell me to stop moving a lot. But ultimately, I still do it. And I'm fine with that. I was wondering if you could elaborate a little more about like I talked about the body as how we embody also our emotions. One of the things that I've learned to do is that when I feel anxiety, where am I feeling it and for me, largely in my chest and the heart area, but some people feel it and are tingling, so their fingers and all that. So do you talk a little bit about how they their bodies hold those emotions in different ways?

Stephanie Simpson: 19:45

Yes, yes. And that kind of goes back to also that the stress part of things is that we're holding stress in our body. And if we not recognize it, it's going to cause some really physical challenges in our body, right so I'll give an example from my own life. I was right after grad school, I was going through like a really stressful, overwhelming time. And I had this low back pain that was so bad that I thought I injured myself from teaching or something. And I was going to massage therapists and different types of massage therapists, and it just wasn't getting better. And it was so painful. And then finally ended up having to go to a chiropractor because my sacrum had actually shifted. And when I started realizing like it wasn't from an injury, it actually was, that's where I was holding my stress. And then got curious. And I use the word curious. That's not probably what I did before. But I use it now of like, what, what is underlying this, I then started realizing it was some of the relationships I was having in my life didn't feel authentic to me, I wasn't being authentic, I wasn't being seen in the way I wanted to be seen. And for years later, anytime I was having issues in relationships, my low back would start to like fire again. Right? So with clients, that sensation practice is something I really do you know, when you when and it's different for everybody. So like, when you mentioned that your anxiety, you feel it in your heart, mine's in my low belly. And I now because I'm someone who practices what I preach. So like, anytime,

Steve Bisson: 21:22

love ideas that I know, right?

Stephanie Simpson: 21:25

Every time like this morning, it came up for different reasons. And I was like, well, instead of ignoring this, Stephanie, what if we sat here right now? What if you were breathing with it? What if and then what what color? Would this be? What What is it feeling and everything that and once I became to the other aspect of that sensation thing is, after I lead clients through this or myself through it, I'll then say, Okay, now what is the feeling or emotion that's coming up from this sensation? And then what is the story? I'm telling myself, when I feel that emotion or that feeling? And then from there, I use different tools of like, okay, well, is that is that narrative true? What evidence do I have for it? Or the last time this happened? How did I work through it? What would better serve me? Like, what narrative would better serve me right now? What would I rather be thinking? And then try to shift that try to say that over and over and over again, to then be like, Okay, now what emotion is coming up? Okay, now, how is that shifted? What's happening in for me, my low belly? Like, what color? Would it be now? What texture? Would it be now? And, you know, sometimes it takes longer than others. Sometimes it's like, more of like, a minute. Sometimes it's like, no, I gotta sit here with it for you know, 10 or 15 minutes. And sometimes it doesn't fully go away. But at least I took a little bit of its power away from it.

Steve Bisson: 22:47

Just a reminder, we're listening to finding your way through therapy sitting here with Stephanie Simpson. I'm Steve be so great conversation so far. I really like the Mind Body Spirit connection. That's something I do on a regular basis and talking about movement, and where do you feel it and those emotions, one of my other, kind of like, I'm moving into coaching right now I'm gonna, I'm gonna it's gonna be emotional management coaching. And one of the things that people underestimate, because it's a hard emotion to admit. And you mentioned it earlier, I mentioned it too, but I'm gonna say it again, fear. And when I think about movement, I think about my own therapy, I think half my conversations with my therapist is about fear, because it shows up as anxiety or depression or anger. But really, it's all fear. Do you find that that happens, not only on the dance level, and a lot of people as your coaching, and you know, you talked about doing the college and the professional for stuff for the basketball players, I really feel that something that is underestimated by a whole lot of people is that the same experience that you've had.

Stephanie Simpson: 23:53

Yeah, and I actually I work less and less now with, like athletes and dancers and more with executives and leaders and managers in the business world, because I almost think that in the dance and arts and sports world, this stuff is, is actually talked about a lot because it's so necessary in order to do your job, like it's so necessary. Whereas we don't think it's as necessary if you're going into an office or you're in hybrid, or wherever setting you're in now. And yet, it's just as necessary there. Because if you're not managing your own stress and fear and emotions, you're then putting that onto other people. Right. And so something I talk a lot about is conscious leadership. And so leaders if they do what they know, right, so if they haven't been taught healthy ways to understand their own emotions, which I agree, fear is kind of like the underlying thing. I want to say most of the conversations that I have with clients right now, is I'm not enough. I'll say like, well, what like what do you think like, what's the story that's coming? up in your mind when you you know, pitch to that? Well, I don't think I communicated well enough. Okay, well, what does that look like. And then as we go deeper and deeper, deeper, it always comes up, well, they're not going to think I'm good enough, right? So everything comes down to I'm not enough. And the fear of not being enough, right, and the fear of not being accepted or belonging, or any of that sort of stuff. And so if we haven't been taught how to recognize that and be honest with ourselves, and were to share that in safe ways, then we keep it all inside, and it comes out in anger, frustration, all of that. And so if you're a leader holding like, like managing a team, and you haven't done your own work on all of this, then you're just going to be projecting that onto your team. And then the team absorbs that. And now they're not going to be they're gonna be dysfunctional, there's gonna be unnecessary conflict, there's going to be the stressors, which will then eventually lead to burnout, right? So a lot of the work I do now is how are leaders becoming more conscious about their own stuff, taking responsibility for their own emotion, their own actions, their own behaviors, and then creating new pathways both in the brain and the body? And when and then like, physically within their systems and their teams to create more ease and flow and alignment. So when we talk about like the Mind, Body Spirit, like how are we creating more alignment, which then would create more flow and ease?

Steve Bisson: 26:30

I think that's all the important stuff that I really want to talk about, too, because that's the important work that you do you talk about conscious leadership certainly relates to a lot of stuff that I'm working on emotional management coaching, but I'd like to hear more about conscious leadership. Because I think that that's probably when you think about corporate America. And even like, sole proprietor America, frankly, that's what I think is really missing. So can you tell me more about that?

Stephanie Simpson: 26:57

Yeah. So and I will say to leadership, when I think about leadership, I'm not just talking about it in terms of like a formal leadership role. I'm also thinking about how are we being the leaders of our own lives and consciously doing that, right. So everything goes for both of those camps. So when we're thinking of conscious leadership, we're really looking at creating a we instead of an AI, we're becoming more aware and in the moment, right. So when we talked about narratives before, you know, even just defining like, what does success look like to me? So many of us have this idea of success. And when we sit down and we're like, oh, wait, that's actually not a value. Like, that's actually the idea of success that I had in my life, in my mind is actually in direct conflict with something I say is a value of mine, right? And if that's the case, then we're creating, we're creating distress, and then suffering, right? So getting people to kind of step back and like I loved what you said before, human being, let's stop the doing. And let's get more comfortable in the being. And how are we shifting into if we're going to bring it back to like a physiological? How are we shifting back into our parasympathetic nervous system, so that we can reregulate ourselves and actually figure out what is important to us? Who do we want to be? What do we have to do to get aligned with that? Not who do we think we should be? And that can be scary that I think that's one of the reasons a lot of people don't go to therapy is that someone recently say to me, like, Well, I think I should go to therapy, but I'm really scared too. And I was like, Well, that makes a lot of sense. What's holding you back? And they're like, Well, I'd have to be really honest with myself and someone else. And it's like, yeah, and I and that's a scary thing to do. It's also an incredibly brave thing to do, and an incredibly freeing thing to do once you do it. Right. And and how wonderful would it be if more people felt more comfortable and safe, to be more honest with themselves and with others?

Steve Bisson: 29:06

I always find it interesting to watch individuals who talk about oh, that person is authentic, or this person is truthful. And they're struggling with their own authenticity and their own truthfulness. And they go well, what about a mirror? Just do the same thing? What's the worst that can happen? And I don't know what your experience is with that and obviously turning it to you. But for me, I always find that once people start being authentic, even with like, maybe people they're close to, you know, we were joking earlier with about Courtney, obviously, Courtney, your friend of mine, too. I'm authentic with Courtney. And guess what? She's never not accepted me. She's authentic with me. And guess what? Never had a problem with being accepted by me either. Do you think that if people really got the secret and I know we're maybe selling too much of our coaching stuff, but if people just understood authenticity, and that's really what's going to take it to the other side. Do you think that that would change change a lot, not only leadership in our own lives, but leadership overall.

Stephanie Simpson: 30:06

Yes, yes, totally. Because the what came up to mind, and this is like always in Harvard business reviews in Psychology Today, when it comes to businesses, how are you creating psychological safety. And then the first thing that comes up whenever you see like three things to create psychological safety is trust, transparency, and connection, which to me are all kind of the same thing. In order to create connection, there needs to be trust. And there needs to be transparency, though, in order to do all of those things. People have to be authentic. And in order to be authentic, you have to be vulnerable. Right? And so we

Steve Bisson: 30:43

interview said the word vulnerable, I can't do that.

Stephanie Simpson: 30:48

I know, right, so I'm one of my favorite people out there is Brene. Brown. And so she's done a ton of work over the last 20 ish years on vulnerability as it relates to shame. And so also getting clear on our own Shaman. You know, I know that one of the reasons we got connected with how is therapy shaped my life. And I will be very honest, and saying I have therapy every Monday morning. I specifically do it on Monday mornings, because I Sunday nights and Monday mornings are the most challenging part of my week. And so having that session with my therapist in the morning, helps me to kind of just get into the week and get all that out. And even this past week, I shared something that I hadn't shared with anybody really in a lot of forever. Well, I was encouraged to share with her and I wasn't going to. And I was like, No, it happens along, I won't. And then I finally did. And we realized that there was this shame that I was holding on to and that no matter what work I was doing, and here's to where I'm like, I do what I do, because I also need the reminders all the time. So I'm learning from my clients, I'm learning from every like workshop I do. And all of that is that in order for me to get to the place, I want to get to I have to continuously be shining light on my shame. And I can't get to those places with other people if I'm still holding on to that, right. And so even though I've been in therapy for years, there's still things that I hold on to that are hard for me to talk about. Right? So I bring that up because it was very much it happened like yesterday. So I think if people if we were encouraged to and I always think about what Brene Brown says is that the worst thing you can do for shame is not talk about it, right? That's what shame wants you to do. Because then it creates a bigger monster, though, if you're able to share it with somebody, all of a sudden, it doesn't have its power. What I've really learned in therapy is Who is it safe to share these things with, because we have a lot of times in our lives been taught that it's not okay to share certain things because whoever we shared it with, doesn't know how to hold that space. And he gets uncomfortable and then shuts it down. But then we internalize that as like, oh, I shouldn't have done that. Right. So I was I still am but I was a huge crier growing up like cried all the time, which now makes a lot of sense to me, because I didn't know how to articulate things, tried to get it out of my body, but then crying would just do it right. And I would get made fun of like, Oh, she's such a cry very Oh, there she is going again crying again, crying again, crying again. That I just like kind of stopped doing it. I never wanted to cry. And then as I got into my like, I would say about 10 years ago, I was like, No, I like I cry. When I'm inspired. I cry when I something really creative happens. I cry, you know at music, I cry when I'm frustrated, angry, upset all of that. It is a way of me expressing myself, though I do have certain people in my life that as soon as I start crying, they'll be like, Oh, no, don't cry, don't cry. And I had to write. Yeah. And then I realized, oh, no, that's because this person is uncomfortable with it. And that's okay. And then being able to know that they're where they are, right? Like they're doing the best that they can. And I think where my coaching work has helped me is how do we meet people where they are and not judge them for where they are? And then just know that there are certain people in my life that are the people that as soon as I started crying, they're like, yeah, let it out. Do it. Like, let me hold that space for you. Because they also have been working on tools on how to do that for themselves. And then it becomes this, this reciprocal relationship where sounds like you and Courtney as well as like, we can share everything in anything and there never is any judgment, because we're holding that space for each other.

Steve Bisson: 34:45

And I think that you talked about my favorite author Brene and I love Brene Brown a lot. I I always joke around that God forbid something happens to her husband. I am not wishing anything well bad about him. But his name is Steve and I'm Steve Have you had to move in? She doesn't even have to learn a name. That's right. But I always think that shame is such a powerful tool, which, for me being true, truthful and authentic with you and my audience here is, that's the reason it kept me from going to therapy for years. And because, you know, I'm a therapist, I gotta be strong enough. I grew up in a tough family, my family, mostly blue collar and mostly hard workers. And so going to therapy was admitting weakness. And one day, someone pointed out, and I think it's a Brene Brown thing, too. Aren't we all week? While we have things that we got to work on? And I'm like, Oh, yeah. And yeah, I'm in therapy, though, for, I don't know, 15 years and look forward to meeting with my therapist on a regular basis. We are weekly right now, sometimes we go bi weekly, it depends. But I really feel like what we do is sometimes the self shame is worse than any type of shame anyone can give us.

Stephanie Simpson: 35:58

Mm hmm. Yeah, I totally agree. Another person I listened to a lot, their podcast is Dax, Shepard's armchair expert podcast. And that's something they talk about all the time, whenever he has experts, or even, you know, the celebrities and so on is like, no one can be worse to me than I am to myself. Right. And I think about that all that. I mean, it's one of my favorite questions when I'm with a client, and I'll say like, what do you want to do? Or what do you what do you think you want? And they're like, I don't know, I don't know. And I'm like, okay, is you were giving your friend advice? What would you do for them? And all of a sudden, then something new comes to them, right? Because they are like, they're cutting themselves off? Because they're like, Well, I can't do that. Or it's not good enough for me, or I'm not good enough for this. But of course, I could tell my friend to do that, because they're great, right? And it's like, well, what if you just shined that around to you, like you said, the whole mirror thing? Like, what if? What if you could use that as a mirror like what would be possible, then

Steve Bisson: 37:00

I like that. I use that in substance use constantly. Because some people like they come in, and they're ashamed whether they've used recently, or they've had a history of use. And I've had people who relapse, and that's part of the treatment. Then whenever they tell me, there's two things I say, I go, if you expect me to say anything negative, there's nothing I can say that you haven't said twice in your head and twice this bad. There's nothing I'm going to say that's going to really I'm not going to do that. Number two, thank you. I appreciate you sharing something so difficult for you. Now I'm happy we're going to move forward, what are we going to do? And I do that with a lot of shame people who have had significant traumas children, and I should be stronger than that. I hate the short word. But that's what they say. And I think that when you talk about trauma, and we you touched base on that a little bit, I think that that's part of the cautious leadership, too, is that we got to be trauma informed as leaders in our own lives, but also everyone, including our neighbors, frankly, and I don't know how you feel about trauma informed stuff and how it shows up in your coaching and your business in general.

Stephanie Simpson: 38:07

Yeah, I really love that you said that because I you know, for years now, a lot of my work I did, I'm a yoga teacher as well. And like we'd go to these trauma informed yoga certifications, or trauma informed mindfulness. And at the time that those were first coming out, it was like when you're teaching yoga, to trauma communities, in what we defined to be trauma communities, so I worked a lot with foster care children in New York City, or the LGBTQ plus community. And so we've decided that those communities have a lot more trauma than someone else, right, which may be true may not be true. And so then all of a sudden, we're like, we need to inform these practitioners how to do that. And then I started thinking, But wait a second, even when I go into lead, a corporate workshop, I don't know any of these people here. I don't know what they're coming in with. Also, we all have had some sort of traumatic experience in our lives to some extent that we're holding on to. And so why are we not just coming into every space, being informed that we all experienced trauma in some way. And I was actually in a trauma informed mindfulness sensitivity training a few months ago as a participant, and in one of my small groups, I was saying, how do we bring this language into the corporate world and someone was like, I kind of steer away from it because you know, they don't want anything that will ruffle feathers and stuff. And I was like, how is that helping, though? Like, we I really want to be it but then I get it. Like, we also need to make this money we need it's a business that we have, right? So it's you're playing that game and which always never felt good to me. I'm like, No, I want to be off. If I'm teaching people how to be authentic, then I want to use words that are authentic to what I'm doing. And then I kid you not a week later, Harvard Business Review came out with an article that says we need more trauma informed workplaces. And I was like, Well, finally a well, like, no, no journal is using that word because it's true. And we think about what we've all gone through in the last two and a half years. This was a traumatic and still continues to be a traumatic experience. And if we think that we're going back to any form of work, or society or relationships and community, without acknowledging that we've all been through a trauma, you're doing yourself a disservice, as a company, you're doing your employees a disservice. And so that's where I then really started leaning into like, No, we have to be naming things for what they are.

Steve Bisson: 40:39

Right. And just a reminder, again, finding your way through therapy, Steve de sel, sitting here with Stephanie Simpson, I love the comments about the trauma that you just made. And the other thing that I kind of remind people is, I can't decide what is traumatic for Stephanie. Whatever is traumatic for Stephanie is not me to go. Is that really traumatic? No, that's not for me to decide. That's for what the person is. I shared the story of one of my, this is long time ago, someone came in and saying I want to work on my trauma. And it was about a dead animal on the side of the road. And I asked that person if they ever owned that type of animal. And they said, no, why? And I'm like, okay, you don't need the judges deep, ask questions, be curious. And being trauma informed to me is to not judge also, where a person is trauma traumatized? I mean, for some people, coffee can be traumatizing, for all I know. And it's not for me to decide if that's right or wrong. It's just what it is. Do you feel some pushback, or some concerns from people when you start talking about like, hey, trauma is trauma. And to me, we all had different forms of trauma. You've been in Rwanda during the genocide, that's a different trauma than again, seeing it that animal on the side of the road, but not everyone wants to accept both as equals. How do we work with leadership in order to understand that it's not for us to decide what trauma is?

Stephanie Simpson: 42:00

Yeah, these are great questions.

Steve Bisson: 42:01

I thought it was a hard hitting, I'm going to be hard.

Stephanie Simpson: 42:05

You are. So the visual I'm getting is that it like really is coming from both sides. Like there's this both. And that needs to happen. I feel a lot of times with leaders, especially the ones that have some pushback, it's usually because they don't want to do the work themselves. Right? And so it's first about that, how do I create a space for the leaders to feel safe, to come to the table as their authentic self, so that they can start doing the work and experiencing that? And once they realize how much freeing it is to have that then it's like, yes, of course, we want to do this with everybody else. So what's coming to mind to right now is I work with all different industries. So whether it's finance or tech startups or, or law firms or anything like that, and I've been talking with a lot of law firms, especially around stress, because we're like, are so stressed, we're so stressed. And usually they bring me in to do a two hour workshop on stress management. I'm like, great, that's really awesome. I'm really happy you're bringing in also know that this isn't going to really change much, because a two hour workshop is a good start. But like, transformation and change takes time. And as I was talking to different people, it's like, well, I feel like it's because the higher ups are like well, we went through this, we were kind of thrown through the wringer. And I've survived. So you should be able to as well, right? And so there's this mindset of like, well, just because you went through it, it also wasn't okay, that you went through it. And that's okay. Right. So there's the whole badge of honor thing again, right? Give space to these leaders and being like, it wasn't right that you went through that either. And actually, to be a conscious leader and to create new and change and innovation and all these things we say we want to do and all these businesses, takes the bravery to go, oh, yeah, actually, that was actually pretty toxic and traumatic for me. And I don't want to do that I want to break that cycle. I want to try something new. And I'm committed. So this is the other part of like, the consciousness is, I'm committed and I'm recommitting every day to creating a new habit, a new pathway, over a period of time. So that's what I'd say is like, start like there's that both and of getting them to see it so that then they can start to embodying it. And then also that they're giving permission for other people to be able to do that. There's a difference when you show up in a room as a leader who's done a lot of work, who's like, here's where I'm at today. Here's what's going on, I'm going to be transparent about this and blah, blah, blah, this and like creating a container that then allows other people to do the same. And it takes a lot of skills and I keep going back to you saying our human being and not human doings. Because when I'm working with teams, one of the first things I tell them is that how do you start your meetings? And most of them will be like, well, we sit down, and we talked about what the agenda is, like. Okay, so you go right into the DUID. Yeah, well, that's a meeting we need to and I was like, what would it be like, if you started with just like, How's everyone being? How do we want to be together? What does support look like? What does good communication look like? Let's get, let's talk about these human things. So that then down the line, when something does come up, that maybe starts to activate people systems, we have a way to be together, we know that we're safe, because we've taken that 10 minutes to talk about how we want to be together, the doing becomes a lot easier when we've done when we've gotten clear on the being.

Steve Bisson: 45:47

Right. And I think that's why like, even for my office, I have water and coffee, like you open the doors right there. And I tell people, like if you're five minutes late for your session, but that coffee, not water is gonna make the difference. Take your time. And I think we forget about the human being in so many levels. I talked about toxic leadership in that way. And I go back to a story that for those of you who've listened to every podcast, you know, the story was shared with Stephanie to my best friend died when I was 12, and a fire. And again, for better or for worse, I was told that sucks. But there's a game on Friday, he played football with me, so you better be ready, he won't be there. And you know, I forgive anyone who said that. It's not about that. But it's also kind of like, Oh my God. Now if someone says they lost a friend and family member or friend, I have options of saying, I'm going to be there for you now know how hard it is? Or, hey, look, I fucking survived it. Your problem now. And I know which one I choose every single time. But I think that that's what I kind of remind leaders sometimes is that it's not would you say that to someone like God? No. And I'm like, and then that's what you're saying about the agenda items. That's what you're saying about getting to the point. And that's why even in my business coaching ideas that I have right now, I'm not open to doing groups yet. Because I think that unfortunately, I find too often that people who are there who might not be the leader in the room, turn to the leader to see what to say. And that takes away the authenticity. And but that's just my view, that doesn't mean it's true. It's just my view. And that's why I tell people like if you want to be a good leader, be authentic, so you can give the space to everyone.

Stephanie Simpson: 47:26

And I'll just say over and over again, it takes a commitment and a lot of courage and bravery. Specially right now with the way work is to be a leader that's dedicated to that. Because there's so much going on, and there is so much responsibility, though the ones that I work with, like they get that like doing this work, in the long run is going to make a huge difference in their own life. And in the success of the people that they're leading. And truly, if, to me, my personal belief is like leading is about cultivating your followers, right? It's not about you, it's about the group. And so if success is measured on how well is the group doing, then you as a leader need to learn how to be that person that can I don't wanna use the word Shepherd it but cultivate that, right? And we don't teach that.

Steve Bisson: 48:18

No, we don't. And I think that that's one of the things that some of my clients, I asked them, I'm very authentic in therapy, I don't overshare by any stretch, but I do share my life a little bit. And I say to my clients, I'm like you're an equal, we're human beings. So you're, we're equal, there's a power differential in the room. And in a coaching situation is still a power differential. That's inherent, but I can still lead and see you as an equal. And that's something that sometimes is lost, because leadership sometimes is equal to superiority. And to me, that's just like, the dumbest thing in the world. Because even though you could be the we might have seen it in the last 10 years or so in our leadership in this country. You might be a leader by name, but you may not be a leader by behavior.

Stephanie Simpson: 49:02

Mm hmm. Yeah, totally. And, and it keeps coming back to like, Who do you want to be right in coaching? So many people, and I do a lot of like, I train people on how to be more coach like and everything too. And we always talk about like, people come because they have a problem, right? I have this problem. So and they think that I'm the I'm gonna solve it, and I go well, as a coach, my job is not to tell you, it's to ask you questions and to help. Like, if I'm truly coaching that I believe that you are fully capable and whole, that you have all the answers. And my job is to ask and not tell and that I am through listening to you and witnessing You and asking you questions and mirroring things back and noticing things. I am allowing you to uncover things and go, that's their right. So they always come with a problem. And it's always an external one usually, and then what they start realizing is that oh wait, it's actually the way I'm showing up to this that's causing this problem. So in that coaching journey, where it's really about how are we creating awareness? How are we shifting our perspective and our lens on things? And then how are we taking that aligned action? And then continuing to like experiment with that which going back to like my dance upbringing, the choreographic process was all of that it was, here's an idea, let's do this. Let's do this. Oh, that didn't quite work. So let's try this, or Oh, wow, you just did that. Let's go deeper into that. And then continuously, like zooming in zooming out zooming it? What do we know? Now? What do we know this? And nothing is right or wrong or bad or good? It's what are we learning from this? And how do I want to use that going forward, which is very much part of like, so I'm trained in a specific framework called core energy leadership. And it's a seven level framework. And it's really to me, it's changed my life. And I use it with all my clients, whether it's an individual, a team, or group or anything, because there's an assessment you can take and, and it's an attitudinal assessment, not a behavioral assessment. And it's actually assessing how you're using the seven perspectives or lenses on a good day. And in your stress reaction, right? Because we have things are going our way. Like, we might be really like, Yeah, I'm seeing the opportunity here. And I'm connecting with this person here, and I'm taking care of myself. And then as soon as something doesn't go the way we want, we get triggered into our, our stress reaction. It's like, Oh, crap, okay, I got to fight for myself, or why me is always happens to me or whatever, I guess it's good enough. Exactly. And now we're not in our optimal systems. And we actually have created that tunnel vision instead of an our catabolic hormones, you know, our cortisol, adrenaline when we're just like, get me to safety, get me to safety, as opposed to like, oh, how can I stop? How can I become more conscious? Because with more awareness comes more choice. And with more choice comes more power. Right? When we're in that stress cycle, we are just like, I have no choice. I have to do this. This the only thing and it's usually we try the same thing over and over again, it's not working. And so that conscious leadership, that moment of okay, let me pause, let me breathe. Let me use all these different tools that I can learn, how can I create more awareness, because with that awareness comes more choices. And then I have more power, and I can choose where I want to go. And I'm taking an active part in what's happening as opposed to just being passive. Right?

Steve Bisson: 52:31

I think that the two things that you said that really resonated in it, particularly with me, all of it was good. But more choice, more power. I always tell people, there's no such thing as no choice, we all have a choice. And you can choose whatever is your habit that may have may not have been helpful to you in the past, you can create a new habit or have a new habit that's really work, or try something completely new and see how that works out. But those are all choices we have on just about everything, even taxes, you can pay your taxes you can partially buried tax about pay him at all, there's consequences to every single choice. We have choices, and doing the same thing over and over again in the past, like we've done in the past and expecting a different result. I know it's it's usually attributed to Einstein, it's actually not him. I can't remember who it is. But yeah, it is insanity.

Stephanie Simpson: 53:20

Yeah, you know, as you're saying that I was thinking and smiling about my therapist, because something we worked on for the last a little over a year, as I was going through a major life change in my life, was that I would, I was really upset, I was really angry, I was really confused. I was really frustrated and all these like big emotions coming up. And then she, you know, reflected back to me that some of those things I was doing to myself, that I was I have a love hate relationship with social media, there were certain things that I was choosing to look at certain things that then created this emotion that I then was blaming on something else. And so she will always pause me and be like, well, you chose to do that though. Well, yeah, but then blah, blah. Okay, so you're choosing to create that feeling. And like you said, like, you can choose whatever. So it then it now has become something that when I am going to do different things in my life, I stop and I go, Well, it's your choice, Stephanie, you can choose to engage in that, but know that whatever feeling comes up. You did that to you, you're responsible for that. Or you could choose to do this other thing and whatever comes up right. And that was took a lot for me to like actually embody, though at the same time, incredibly freeing. Because again, we all want to feel like we have control in our life. And a lot of times we don't but you do you get to control what you do and then take responsibility for it.

Steve Bisson: 54:53

Right. I absolutely adore that. And as we wrap up, we're getting close to an hour already, which is really went by fast again, I gotta first tell you just a personal comment. It's nice to have guests, and particularly a friend of a friend. And now you know why your friend is friend with that person. So I want to say that and not just be this not because I want to be nice. And you can ask Courtney and not usually nice for no reason. But it really something that I truly enjoyed our conversation. I feel like we have a lot in common, in many ways. So I really appreciate your candor, in regards to your therapy, to candor in regards to your work. And I'd love to be able to send people to you. So how do people reach you to talk about conscious leadership's and stuff like that?

Stephanie Simpson: 55:44

Yeah, so they can go to my website, which is Stephanie dash samsung.com. And then I'm on LinkedIn, Facebook, and Instagram, all at Stephanie Simpson coaching men, so people can send me messages in any of those places, I always offer a free discovery call, so that I can get to know someone that you can get to know me, so that we know that we're the right fit, because that's also really important. So again, that's definitely Simpson coaching on LinkedIn, Instagram, and Facebook, and then just Stephanie dash simpson.com. And then I also want to say I really appreciate the work that you're doing, and your honesty and, and authenticity. And I love having these conversations, and I totally will connect in any way you want to continue going. Because the more people that are doing this work and really trying to heal everybody is I think what needs the most important work we can be doing right now.

Steve Bisson: 56:41

Yes, I definitely would love to keep talking to you. And I will definitely link up in the show notes. Stephanie Simpson coach.com, at the Instagram, Facebook, LinkedIn, and then Stephanie dash simpson.com. I'll link all that up. And I hope that you get a lot of people interested because I really love the work that you're doing. And your authenticity means more to me than you'll ever know. So thank you for that. Thank you. I hope that we re meet not only maybe here too, but hopefully we'll connect another list.

Stephanie Simpson: 57:15

Yes, I would love that.

Steve Bisson: 57:18

Well, that concludes episode 57 of finding your way through therapy. Stephanie Simpson, thank you so much. I hope that you guys go check her out on her website, and her social media and everything else that will be linked in the show notes. Episode 58 will be with someone and I met online, and we really connected and she actually invited me on to her podcast, so I hope you get to listen to that too when it comes out. But Susan Rogen off and I hope she doesn't beat me up for not pronouncing your name properly, but we'll talk about that at the next episode. But she is the swearing therapist. She also has a great podcast called the rules. So I hope you join me for that episode. Please like, subscribe or follow this podcast on your favorite platform. A glowing review is always helpful. And as a reminder, this podcast is for information, educational, and entertainment purposes. If you're struggling with a mental health or substance abuse issue, please reach out to a professional counselor therapist for consultation