E.60 Isolation, Mental Health, And Neurological Wiring Of Entrepreneurs With Carolina Guttierrez

In this episode, I speak to Carolina Guttierrez. Carolina discusses her journey in her education, as well as career as an entrepreneur. She discusses her own journey around shame and doubt, which led her to therapy and realize the pitfalls of being a founder. She also created an amazing coaching program called "Soul Circles", which has help many entrepreneurs realize the importance of mental health awareness for themselves and their enterprises. 

Carolina is a serial entrepreneur that runs 3 businesses and started her first when she was 12 years old. As a mental wellness advocate for business owners, she was diagnosed ADHD in her 30’s has since used her past difficulties to fuel her current business endeavors around the purpose of prioritizing mental wellness in business. Having turned her struggle into a passion she is on a mission to highlight the realities of entrepreneurship on our mental health; by helping dispel stigmas surrounding neurodiversity and empowering business owners to embrace their difference, find their superpower. 

Carolina can be reached on her website here.

You can also book her here.

Transcript

Steve Bisson: 0:01

Hi and welcome to finding your way through therapy. I am your host, Steve Bisson. I'm an author and mental health counselor. Are you curious about therapy? Do you feel there is a lot of mystery about there? Do you wonder what your therapist is doing and why? The goal of this podcast is to make therapy and psychology accessible to all by using real language and straight to the point discussions. This podcast wants to remind you to take care of your mental health, just like you would your physical health. therapy should not be intimidating. It should be a great way to better help. I will demystify what happens in counseling, discuss topics related to mental health and discussions you can have what your thoughts I also want to introduce psychology in everyday life. As I feel most of our lives are enmeshed in psychology. I want to introduce the subtle and not so subtle ways psychology plays a factor in our lives. It will be my own mix of thoughts as well as special guests. So join me on this discovery of therapy and psychology. Hi, and welcome to episode 60 of finding your way through therapy. My name is Steve B. So if you haven't listened to Episode 59, please go and listen to Joe Riley. We had a great conversation about so many great things including trauma, her experience with mental health in the mental health system and it was great so I hope you get a chance to listen to that. But episode 60 will be with Carolina Gutierrez. She's a serial entrepreneur that runs three businesses and started our first business when she was 12 years old. As a mental wellness advocate for business owners she was diagnosed with ADHD in her 30s and has since used her past difficulties to fuel our current business endeavors around the purpose of prioritizing mental wellness in business. I'm looking forward to the interview fellow Canadian so I don't know if that's gonna come up but I hope it does. And here is the interview. Well, hi and welcome to finding your way through therapy. This is episode 60 and YouTube episode number 10. Yes, it's been 10 times that we've been on YouTube. So I'm looking forward to that. But more importantly, looking forward to my interview with Carolina Gutierrez and I'm hoping that I got that right after I mispronounced that the first time

Carolina Guttierrez: 2:16

you did great, you did great.

Steve Bisson: 2:17

It's great because what happened is a few months ago, I was looking for guests and sometimes you get a lot of calls. Sometimes you don't. And I was in a lot of not getting calledwhen the first maybe the fifth or sixth person was Carolina who contacted me. And she got the priority, for the simple fact that we have something in common that I absolutely adore, we are both Canadians.

Carolina Guttierrez: 2:43

Ehhhh? I mean, we're natural enemies in Canada because Montreal and Toronto, but that's just hockey. We you know that the rest of it we can get along but Carolina Gutierrez. Welcome to finding your way through. Thanks for having me, Steve. I'm looking forward to the next hour. I'm looking

Steve Bisson: 3:02

forward to it too. I mean, it's interesting, because I had contacted you I can't I looked up some of your stuff. And then I discovered a whole bunch of stuff. So I'm like, yeah, no, I said I had seven questions. I lied, I have about 20. But hopefully we'll probably just get to some of the subjects naturally versus anything else. But since my audience and me are trying to read a little bit about you, obviously so I know you a little bit. But what about if you introduce yourself to the audience and tell me more about yourself?

Carolina Guttierrez: 3:31

Sure. My name is Karolina Gutierrez and I am a serial entrepreneur, based just outside of Toronto, Canada. I run several businesses, I am an adult diagnosed ADHD. And I consider myself a mental wellness advocate for business owners in prioritizing, bringing peace into running your own show, which a lot of people don't like to talk about.

Steve Bisson: 3:56

So tell me more about that mental health wellness for business owners because that I know, I think I know what that means. But maybe the audience doesn't maybe I've got it wrong. So I'd like to hear more about that.

Carolina Guttierrez: 4:07

Sure. So the way I look at it is and the statistics back this up. Running your own show being an entrepreneur is detrimental to your mental health. A lot of business owners go into business in the first place because they actually might have some undiagnosed mental health conditions, whether it's diagnosed or undiagnosed, it's this statistic is 72 to 73% of business owners suffer from some type of mental illness 60 According to km h, which is a Canadian research organization on mental health. 63% of business owners report feeling depressed at least once a week. And the WHO lists entrepreneurship as an endeavor that causes entrepreneurs to be four times more likely to take their own

Steve Bisson: 4:56

life. So one in four more like four times

Carolina Guttierrez: 5:00

more likely than the general population. Yeah. Yeah. So that if you superimpose that, as a therapist, I'm sure you can help me out here. But if you superimpose that to the statistics of suicidal ideation, and reaching out for help, and all that into that, really what you have is an epidemic of huge proportions within the entrepreneurial and founder space, in regards to mental wellness, and really not focusing on it, no one's talking about it. And so I've really tried to champion that cause moving forward, and all my businesses reflect that as well.

Steve Bisson: 5:34

It's a very interesting stat, because the first thing that came to mind is when the highest levels of suicides are dentists. And they tend to be business owners. So I was like, oh, maybe I'm making a correlation. But no, I, and I can see why business owners struggle with that. What has been your experience for those people that have come in and talked about this, because it's not something that business owners like to be independent of? Because their hyper independence kind of like plays against them? In some ways?

Carolina Guttierrez: 6:01

It isolates them. Okay, what does that mean? So they don't have the natural supports that non business owners would have. So for example, you might have a home family, and then you have a work family. And you see a lot of people that are going through struggles in their home, they're like, I look forward to going to work, I look forward to being in the office, because I get a reprieve from what's going on. And vice versa, if you're having problems at work, you're like, I can't wait to get home, this is my sanctuary. This is where I find peace, I connect with the people that support me, business owners don't have that luxury. And especially during COVID, as you might have had a business where you had a team where you traveled to an office that just added that extra layer there. So there's a lot of different components. Six out of the eight, top suicide risks are intrinsic to running your own business, high risk, high stakes, uncertainty in income, you drag your family along with you. And they're like, why are you doing this to us, I can go on and on and on. I don't want to make the show. But that but that's just that speaks to how important that is to me. Because I am an entrepreneur, I work with other entrepreneurs. And it became really clear to me that I'm like, there is zero support, these people are drowning, we're getting help, right? Because business owners are convinced that they can do it all and they can do it better. And they have to be convinced to that in order to start running the show that we need to get help for that right away. And there really weren't any supports out there that specifically targeted this community. We have a lot of initiatives. Now we're hearing about mental health more and more, which is fantastic. But we're not targeting this area that I think really needs to be targeted. Because as business owners, I like to say people consider entrepreneurs the modern day superheroes, right? They think it's great. Oh, we're building we're creating. But it comes at a big cost. And we should talk about that cost.

Steve Bisson: 8:05

And I know you said you didn't want this to be about what we're going to talk about today. But suicide is one of the things that I is near and dear to me in the sense that you know if I can prevent any suicide, it will be a gift I gave someone hopefully. Absolutely. You know, appreciate what you said. But I also think that it's always important to talk about the hard stuff for me, it's not Yeah, we can talk about the fluffy stuff. But finding your way through therapy has always been known as we go wherever people don't want to go and they're swears in there too. So yeah, don't worry about permissions for that always feel free to switch. So maybe I can switch gears a little bit which before going down down to a lot the suicide stuff because i i Can I was in still consider myself a trainer for suicide prevention. So for a long time working on a crisis team working with the state of Massachusetts for a while to or the Commonwealth as we have to call it here. How about you tell me more about how you got to doing that job. Not only that, but you have other ventures that you're doing? You're like a serial entrepreneur. So how does Karolina get there?

Carolina Guttierrez: 9:14

Basically. So I was undiagnosed ADHD. And I had started my first business which was a hypnotherapy practice. I worked I have an education and social work. And I worked with a local psychologists dealing with car accident victims here in in Ontario, where I live from the province of Ontario. There was coverage for that under your car insurance. And so I love that work. I consider myself a healer at heart and for me, I can see people's pain really easily. And there's nothing more important, I think in this world than it is to work with people in helping them with their pain. And so that was something that I did for While then the legislation changed in the province. And I went from a thriving practice of eight to 10 new clients a month to foreign a year. And it devastated me. And I had not prepared because I didn't consider myself an entrepreneur. And I said, Oh, no, what am I going to do now. And so I said, Okay, I'm gonna go back to school, I'm gonna get my master's in social work, because I wanted to become licensed counselor, covered through regular extended health care plans. And I knew there was something off, I didn't consider myself a dumb person. But I said, something I knew that my follow through wasn't great. And I was just like, really worried that I was making this effort. And I wanted to make sure that I covered all my bases. So I went in thinking that I was gonna get a learning disability diagnosis. And I walked out with an ADHD diagnosis. And that rocked my world. To be honest with you, I wasn't expecting it. I was livid for the first three months. Because when they presented it to me, and I started doing my research, I look back at my life. And I was like, yeah, that, that's pretty clear that that was the issue. And I just could never kind of put my hand my finger on what was going on the problem. And so I had started one of my businesses, my current business called business in order, I had started that while I was in school, because I needed a part time job, never thinking was going to grow into anything. And I fell out of love with my program. And my business continued to grow. And it's grown into, I manage a team of eight. And I helped several business owners incorporate technology, process improvement, I say that I provide peace, time and profits. And I always lead with peace, peace is super important in all of the endeavors that I that I take on, because I think that ties into mental wellness, that what that business did for me is I got to see behind the scenes of all these businesses. And I got to see the pain, that chaos can bring into a business owners life, on top of the numerous other stressors that come with running a business. And I kept saying, I wonder why there isn't any support, and it was just sitting in the back of my mind. And it continued, it continued. And COVID really kind of blew that open. For me, it was a big personal transformation. Time for me lots of time to think, lots of time to let that inner voice kind of really come to the surface and say, You need to shift this you need, you're the solution that you've been looking for all these years for these business owners. And so circles my peer support program was created from that. Really, it was from seeing the need, I'd love to say that it was coordinated and well thought out. But it wasn't it was just I kept saying, all these people need so much help they're struggling. And traditional therapy might not be doing enough for them. I knew some of them were in therapy, but the value of peer support, and you seeing your story come out of someone else's mouth. And the impact that that has. And I think also the statistic that really just shook me to my core was there's an Australian study on suicide, I believe it's 2018 or 2019. That 63% of people that took their life or maybe 65 had reported to their primary caregiver, that they had no, no suicidal ideation. And so I said, Okay, so these are extremely independent individuals that are entrepreneurs that do things a little bit differently than the general population, and are used to being alone. This might be speaking about them, that somebody's sitting in a room and no disrespect to you, Steve. I think that there's a lot of different forms of healing that we should all incorporate what works for us. But I said, you know, regular therapy might not obviously the numbers are saying it's not enough. And so what can I create? What can I come up with? That would bring the support that these people needed? And that's where my my soul circle program started.

Steve Bisson: 14:24

Well, let's start off with it'll be hard to offend me. Okay. Number two, there's so many things that you said that really struck me. And again, I was going to joke around. I love Michael Becker friends and Nick Kubik. But we don't get offended easily as much as CTV or CBC might report

Carolina Guttierrez: 14:43

as muchuptight Torontonians I set it don't worry, I said

Steve Bisson: 14:49

it. Yeah, my dad used to call Toronto the center of the universe because he worked for a company where the head office was in Toronto. But anyway, you could go on about Canada getting off subject Oh, no, that's fine. I mean, that's what the point is of this podcast. I think people like to get a little bit of that banter too. Yeah. One of the things you said is that when you got diagnosed, right before you got diagnosed and had trouble with paying attention, or I don't know exactly the words you use, but you said you felt like a dumb person. It really struck me because a lot of people with mental health, pro they feel normal, but now they have a mental health issue. They're a dumb person, they're not normal. Do you feel that that's probably why a peer support can be a lot more effective than, again, individual counseling or traditional counseling?

Carolina Guttierrez: 15:34

Absolutely, absolutely. Because one thing is for you to get help. And another thing is for you to have a conversation with somebody that shares your lived experience. It's kind of that scenario of when you're talking to somebody that's never been pregnant, you know, like, there's just no comparison, right? Like, that's probably that why there aren't any male midwives? Or if they are, I've never heard of them. Right. But if you're in far between, exactly, exactly. So I really think that, and we have to look at the entrepreneurial mindset a bit when discussing this, because entrepreneurs are fiercely independent, fiercely loyal to their ideas, and to absolutely not caring one iota what other people think. And they have to have that right? Because it is, it's the only way that you're going to take on doing something that has something like a 96% failure rate, right? You have to be almost an Oracle, in the belief of your message that says, I know better than everyone else to keep going this way. So those are tough nuts to crack in that. They're not just going to take statistics, they're just not going to take up professionals word for it, they're going to be like, Oh, you've almost declared bankruptcy three times, because your business has has fluctuated so much. I respect you. Because you you've got the chops you've earned what it is to be able to speak about the experience that is entrepreneurship. Right. And I

Steve Bisson: 17:12

mean, you know, I relate to the intrapreneurship a lot. By run my own business, my, I just started emotional management coaching. I have this podcast, I read my own book. And a lot of it is my own entrepreneurship. And I feel the isolation, I feel the and I think that one of the things you didn't mention, and maybe if you did, I missed it. I'll tell you what really comes to mind. The word shame.

Carolina Guttierrez: 17:37

Absolutely. It's a chapter in my in my program. Well,

Steve Bisson: 17:42

tell me more about shame, because to me, that's like, I'm a Brene, brown guy. Not everyone likes her, that's fine, I do. But the shame is such a vehicle where you know, failure, amiss. And then like, well, what's the point of living into suicidality and shame sometimes are also very interlocked. So maybe you can tell me more about your experience, which, how and entrepreneurship and shame goes hand in hand.

Carolina Guttierrez: 18:09

So I'll circle it back, actually, to my own personal experience of shame. So when I was diagnosed, and never knowing that I was gonna go this path, it was something that I kept very private, I had a lot of shame surrounding that, because I'm like, how are people going to trust me, to organize their business to create systems and to improve this, when I'm diagnosed with something that isn't necessarily tied in with something that's being organized. And so for many years, I quietly lived in the shame of having this, even though at the same time, it was a driving force in the help that I wanted to put out there into the world. So there's a lot of fear and secrecy and shame that plays into entrepreneurship, because you're like, I don't want people to know what's really going on, whether it's the example that I just gave of my own Shaman. And the irony of that example is, is that the more that I embrace this, and the more that it becomes part of my story, my origin story, and I included it all my branding, and I lead with it. My business is growing and transforming. And so everything that I've been hiding and running away from was what I needed to do. And that's kind of what we touch a little bit on. So circles is the importance of that authenticity. I think that business ownership, you wear a lot of hats, you wear a lot of poker faces, right? And there's a couple of reasons for that. You're not going to say to somebody, Hey, how are you doing today? See, then you're like, I haven't been able to pay my mortgage in two months because my suppliers are delayed. You know, no one wants to hear that. And you're not going to admit that right? First of all, so you're you're eating that alone. You're sitting in that fermented dock. For agents, you might not even tell you Your family. And so your kids, your spouse is going about spending in the same way thinking that you're okay. And you're here by yourself. And that feeling of alone can also lead to feeling trapped. And you know, from your professional experience, feeling trapped is the number one kind of top feeling that people report when considering suicide, that I have no other options, right? My life is better taking it than than living in this trap feeling. So it's something that plays out over and over constantly in an entrepreneur's life. And the reality is, is that no one wants to talk about it. No one wants to be open, because you're like, Oh, my God, what are they going to think, then they're not going to want to work with me. And so then I'm going to lose business. And then this, this cycle is just going to deepen and continue over and over again, there's just so many booby traps, in this space, that really erode away at any mental wellness that we can possibly have. Right. And so part of the program is really, one being open about that, and having a peer discussion, not the facilitator, like, the facilitator has to be an entrepreneur as well, that's part of the way I've developed it. Because if you're going to be involved in this, you have to understand the fire that is in the belly of a have an entrepreneur, to create to build, because many people turn around and say, Why are you doing this to yourself. And it's like, well, if you're anything like me, I'm in the shower, and I have ideas, I'm in the car, and I have ideas, I'm falling asleep. And I dream about ideas that my husband is an entrepreneur and our dinner conversations, our business ideas, and how to improve. When you constantly have that in you. If you try and quell it, it is impossible to quell and if you do manage somehow to quell it, you're probably using some substance to quell it. Because it is so strong, and it is so powerful, that need to create. So anyway, but going back to what you were saying it is intrinsically connected into that scenario. Yeah. And

Steve Bisson: 22:22

you know, I like the idea too, because when you do have a lot of creativity, as you said, and you have entrepreneurship, you gotta get a lot of ideas. The other thing that I think that seeps in for a lot of people is why didn't I pursue ideas 17 versus idea 27. And this constant feeling of failure, and it's not a failure, in my opinion. But I, you know, again, I work with a few entrepreneurs, myself and my private practice and my coaching job. So how do we kind of like also work on, not all ideas are going to be homeruns. And sometimes a homerun is going to slip out of your head?

Carolina Guttierrez: 23:01

Yeah, yeah. And you got to be okay with that. That's actually part of membership into this club. Right? It's a club that never stops asking you for Jews, and the dues are expensive, every time that number one, number two. So this is my spin on it. And I know that it's not everyone's flavor in the business world. But this is, this is how I've chosen to deal with that. And what I've incorporated into the soul circles program is the importance of your intuition, the importance of following that inner guidance, I think that's a pillar for mental wellness period, regardless if you're an entrepreneur or not, but specifically, more specifically for an entrepreneur, because there's so many different ways, because you run the show, at the end, you're the final decision. So for an entrepreneur, you make hundreds, if not 1000s, of micro decisions every single day, how were you being able to really kind of carve that path, instead of being caught up in all the details that writing a business can constantly put in front of you.

Steve Bisson: 24:07

And I'd love to get back to soul circles, because I think that there's so much we can talk about the peer support group. For me, I go back to a little bit of an I can't remember the exact stats on a, but it was something like 68%. And if the numbers off, please note when you do look it up and someone can write to me. But if you go you have a substance abuse problem, you go to therapy versus a peer group, it tends to be almost 60% more effective to go to peer group versus a therapist. Absolutely. And so again, I practice Reiki I practice EMDR I'm a coach. I don't believe in a one size fits all mentality. So you'll have like you talked about that earlier. You need to look for me if a rock is gonna help you I'm gonna give you a rock.

Carolina Guttierrez: 24:51

That's what I say. I'm like a dead chicken on my head done. Okay, if it's gonna fix what I need fix, let's do it.

Steve Bisson: 24:58

But I think I want to circle back back to something because when one of the reasons why I put it, you know, we got the Kinect is that I had put like, can you talk about your experience in therapy? I don't see what what we're talking about right now, I don't see us saying bad things about therapy at all at all. No, not at all. But I'd like to hear more about your experience of therapy, because that's kind of the episode kind of theme every single time. Yeah, how was your experience with therapy.

Carolina Guttierrez: 25:23

So I've done numerous different amounts of and types of therapy throughout my life. It's something that I think I remember volunteering in the eighth grade for an art therapist that was coming to my school and wanting to work with certain students. If I look back, that I didn't even realize what I was doing at the time, or maybe I did, who knows. And I've been in psychotherapy, couples counseling, like I just, I firmly embrace the model, I think we all need help. And I really have no shame, or am secretive, in regards to that I'm very open about my own path and therapy. But the one therapy that particularly sticks out for me, was the one that I did when I was about 18 and a half. So here in Canada, we have universal health care, so we don't have to pay. So this was a particular they gave me like 12 free sessions. If you're dealing with a psychotherapist, for something that I was going through at the time, it was a relationship breakup, it was my first one, I was a mess. And now that, you know, I am the age that I am I have I have the training that I have, I've seen numerous therapists, I look back at that experience. And I'm like, I can't believe that I continued on in therapy with the experience that I have, because that person had absolutely no reason. Or that should not have been the career that they were in at the time. It was so, so bad. And I am so proud of myself that a few years later, I'm like, I really need help. I just, and I was paying out of pocket at the time for that. And I said, Okay, you know, I'm gonna be a little, you know, my voice hadn't really come in, and I was still in a very kind of hurt place. And I'm like, I'm really going to try to find someone that treats me a little bit better than that person treated me. And luckily, he did. And I've had some wonderful experiences there. But I think we need I love the fact that you bring this this topic up, because I think that it's so important to talk about how in this field when you're dealing with feelings of a negative experience like that can ruin a person for the rest of their life in regards to reaching out for help. Right.

Steve Bisson: 27:49

And it's interesting, because when my, the reason why I do this podcast, and the reason why I do the work I do. And for my regular listeners, they've heard me say this 100 times, but it's fine. I think it bears to be repeated. I'm not everyone's cup of tea as a therapist. And that's okay. Yeah, I swear a little more than most therapists.

Carolina Guttierrez: 28:11

I love it. I love it.

Steve Bisson: 28:14

I come from a long line of direct people. So my my style of therapy can be supportive. I'm not saying I'm not supportive, but I'm also kind of direct, which can be not the greatest for some people. And what you did was fantastic. Because it wasn't whatever that person was going through. It wasn't your type of therapy, whatever. And, you know, and then you're like, No, I'm not gonna give up. And I tell people, it's not about CBT, DBT EMDR. Coaching, peer support. No, it's about the relationship. Absolutely. Absolutely. And so the what you did was fantastic. Because when you have your, I can't remember I remember vaguely from years ago reading something about if you have a negative experience in therapy the first time you're 50% More or less likely to continue therapy ever. Yeah. And I want to break that if there's one thing I can change in life is that just changed that because maybe it's not a male, maybe it's a female, maybe it's less direct, maybe it's a more direct, maybe it's 30 minutes, not 60 minutes, or 45 or whatever. But I think that what you did was very, I give you a lot of credit. What do you think kind of like made you persevere through that? Because

Carolina Guttierrez: 29:24

the level of my pain? What do you mean, the level hurt that I was personally and in dealing with the life circumstances that I was, at the moment I was drowning, I was absolutely drowning. And they was probably how many years was that? So I was 18. And then I started again when I was about 22. So it had been four years where I was like, this was just getting worse and worse. And you know, like I look back at it now and undiagnosed ADHD. My life was kind of chaotic. I came from, you know, I had abandonment issues. My dad left when I was two, like, we can go into the specifics of what that was. But I've worked on that. And after that, I'm comfortable sharing that. But at the core of it was just the realizing that it can't always be like that. And I, when I speak to people about therapy, whether it's on a professional level or on a personal level friends, I said, you shop around more for shoes than you do with therapists, yet you're opening your heart, you're opening the most sacred part of you and your story to somebody that you're just going to whoever name them, you should just sit there and like, you need to interview them, if they don't have, you know, like an initial 15 minute meet and greet, that probably is not the person that you should be dealing with. Because a good therapist is going to know that that report is what's important. And that trust that you're building with the people that you're seeing, and It shocks me how people are like, and I would say 9.5 out of 10 are like, I never thought of doing that. And I'm kinda like what, what do you mean, you never thought as an intern, you interview a contract. I'm like, You're not going to interview someone to, to open your soul up to and like, that just sounds ludicrous. So I think that that's really, and maybe it comes from an empowerment place. Like I don't know, I haven't thought about it enough. But I'm always very surprised when, when, when when I get that reaction when I share that.

Steve Bisson: 31:32

I think that empowerment has a lot to do with it. Number one. I also think that pride plays against a whole lot of people. See, therapy's not for me that one time with that one person never worked? Yeah. Well, that's not how it works. You don't go to one contractor who doesn't know how to fix you know, make your pool in the backyard or something like that said no contractor will ever help me and I know you're gonna go shop a few more. Before you go. Okay, maybe no one can put a I know, I don't know, pool over septic tank. Maybe there is I don't know. I'm a therapist.

Carolina Guttierrez: 32:06

That's not your speciality.

Steve Bisson: 32:09

But point being is that that's absolutely true. And I think that it takes the pride gets in the way because it was already hard enough to reach out. For me when people say, You know what, I don't like your style. And like, perfect, I have like four or five other people I can recommend. They're like this or like that. What do you want to be like you don't feel threatened? I'm like, why would I feel threatened. And so I think that what you did is not only brave, I think it's took away your pride, you know, you didn't get your pride in a way. Hi, I'm just taking a quick break of this interview, to let you know that I've truly enjoyed doing 60 Plus episodes of finding your way through therapy. And I just want to remind you that when we're doing these podcasts, it's a labor of love. And what I mean by that is that there's not much revenue, it takes time, it takes money, and you need to distribute it and things like that. So one of the things that I was hoping to talk to you about is being able to help me out, you can always give a review, which is always beneficial. But more than that, I really want you to go to buy me a coffee.com backslash Steve B sub. And the reason why I wanted you to go there is that you can give a donation of any kind to support this podcast that you hopefully have gotten a lot from. And any type of amount will be beneficial for me. And I just want to make sure that you can support me by doing so. And let's get back to the interview. How do we encourage people not only to be brave about their mental health, going through a right therapist and finding the right match? But even more so we talked about mental health in the business world? Yeah. If someone has diabetes and needs to take time because their blood sugar's low, and all that we don't bat an eyelash, someone's having a hard time with anxiety, having a panic attack and all that. Oh, they're crazy. Yeah. How do I mean, I call it I think someone one of my guests mentioned mental health, mental health and form. That's what they used as a term. I think that you talked about being how to get them to prioritize that in businesses. How do we do that?

Carolina Guttierrez: 34:17

So it's funny that you should say this, because I spoke to a marketing person about my program. She has a similar idea. I would say not as similar topic, execution very different sectors focuses on women, and she just blatantly came out and said, Oh, honey, you cannot sell it as a mental wellness for business. You cannot do that. They just won't. They won't respond to that. So I'm like, Okay, well, how do I approach this? And she said, You have to let them know that it's going to make them a better business owner. So it's like speaking their own language in order to get them the help that they actually need. And I would say that the maybe I'm wrong I No, no. But I would say that the pride level of a business owner is a little bit higher than the general population in that they have to keep that poker face. So I know for myself, the way I've started to tackle that is through radical honesty. And so in sharing my own story, and I really am trying to kind of pioneer that a bit like you're, you're hearing more and more about the importance of this, but I'm diagnosed with anxiety and ADHD, I have been through several bouts of depression in my life, that I always come back to, I just don't know everything. It's impossible to know everything. So I'm good at certain areas, but I'm not good at other areas. And I would never cut my own hair. Right? I would go to so I can't, like I can't as much as I have training

Steve Bisson: 35:50

I do. But that's you, okay.

Carolina Guttierrez: 35:54

As much as I have training, I can't have the introspection and the sounding board, that someone that is not has my life experience in my filters, to try and address some of these things that pop up in life.

Steve Bisson: 36:12

And the reason why I made that joke for those who don't watch the YouTube channels that I'm bald, just shaved my head.

Carolina Guttierrez: 36:19

Lucky you save lots of money by not buying again with a cut your own hair.

Steve Bisson: 36:23

You know what? I buy a clipper every five years cost me 35 bucks to 50? Probably 50. Now with inflation. But last me five years, what's that? 10 bucks a year? Hey, go check. But no, and I think of what I found with businesses, and part of my business by coaching is a little bit about that. And it's like kind of exploring with businesses that the better people know how to manage their emotions, the better people know how to manage. Because if you present it as mental health, I know people will go running for the hills. But if I say oh, no, it's about emotional management and how you'd be more effective as a business. Oh, people are on board. It's really a mental health. But I know I have to disguise it. Yeah. I don't know how long it's gonna take us to get there. But I know that I know a little bit about the Canadian Mental Health System. I remember it when I was, you know, in Montreal and studying at McGill. And how archaic is the best word I can use? Still not

Carolina Guttierrez: 37:22

great. It's still not great. You know, let's be honest here, right?

Steve Bisson: 37:27

You talked about social, social medicine. And you know, Americans always say, Oh, that's great. And can I'm like, No, it sucks sometimes. Yeah. And one of the suckiest part of mental health is mental health for socialized medicine. Because I know that last year, like I can't remember where I read it. But the Quebec government put in like 25 million into mental health. Oh, wow. Yeah.

Carolina Guttierrez: 37:46

That's like million people. Like that's ridiculous, right? Yeah. Yeah. Like,

Steve Bisson: 37:51

and we're supposed to celebrate this. So I just want to mention that in case my American friends are listening to me, I'm not 100% Sure. My American and Canadian friends are listening. Yeah. But it's not to idealize them. socialized medicine.

Carolina Guttierrez: 38:04

I actually would like to clarify that because I think that this brings up a really important thing. That free health that I received was for a special program for you. I was at the top end, I was at the end, like I was just fitting into that program, which was emergency, it wasn't like an emergency or like non emergency, but what was it they call that like, immediate need type of to address whatever it was I got those 12 recessions. That therapist refused to give me more than six. So I was like, why don't I have more sessions? And she goes, Yeah, you're not going to come back. And I was like, So it all has problems. And this is an issue of the magnitude that it impacts all our lives, and regardless of the country that you're in, it needs to be better addressed. Right.

Steve Bisson: 38:59

And I think that's a great point. Because one of the things that I talk about for my work as a therapist, and frankly, in my coaching is the same thing. If you don't take care of the physical, mental and your spiritual life,

Carolina Guttierrez: 39:11

you are fucked. Absolutely. And we those are pillars in my soul circles program. You're preaching to the converted. Steve, you absolutely are fucked. There's no other word around that. How do

Steve Bisson: 39:23

you work with those pillars? Particularly spirituality, which, you know, a lot of people are afraid to go there. I personally, I don't give a crap. Because I'm a Buddhist, and I practice Buddhism, I should say, I'm a Buddhist. And I tell people, like we accept everything. That's what Buddhist principles are, as long as it doesn't harm people. But a lot of people with spirituality are like, oh, you know, like Jesus, or you know, like a Nash, you know, like a red light. No, it has nothing to do with not liking it and just a choice. Yeah. How do we make maybe people embrace that spirituality, especially in your support peer support apologist?

Carolina Guttierrez: 39:57

So it's one of the modes of resist PNC. And so we discuss different modes of resiliency when it comes to creating a healthy setup for mental wellness, and having people that you can speak to having organizations or causes that are important to you recognizing and honoring what values are there. If you look at that, that is mission, vision and values in a business, right? So we're translating that into your personal life. So I really, I know it sounds, it might sound a little kitschy, but I really try and speak the same language, so that they're understanding it. Because the reality is, is that as much as I love entrepreneurs, I speak business and feelings fluently. Most entrepreneurs do not. And you've probably come across that, right. It's one or the other, usually, exactly. And so the minute that I started talking about feelings and emotions, you can just feel the energy shift in the room. And you can see, and y'all see their faces go white, because it's like, I don't feel comfortable talking about this, I don't want to share this. So I really put it in a frame. And I think that's what makes my program unique is I put it in a business framework for them, even though part of my program is you're not allowed to talk about your business. So it's like she's speaking my language, we're kind of talking about business without directly talking about it. So

Steve Bisson: 41:24

I don't need to talk about Bruno

Carolina Guttierrez: 41:26

Yes, pretty much exactly. I really want I try and know my market. As a business owner, you need to know your market, you need to know who you're selling to, right, speak their language, make things that are relevant. But it was interesting, because I was worried about the spirituality stuff. But I think that our world is shifting, and people are more and more craving that whether they recognize it as that or not, we're really moving forward. And tying that back to what you were saying about kind of being fucked in that you're not addressing those three components. I think we're seeing the world and the changes that we're seeing in the world currently, I really think if we're looking at it at a deep fundamental level, is we're seeing that change occur. We're seeing that change of that need, we swung the pendulum very far one way and say, it's all science, we no longer need it. Because the pendulum had been very far the other way. And I think that we're starting to come to a place where it's like, well, both of these can coexist. And we need to create supports, and we need to create, we need to address issues that are lacking this. I debated a lot about naming my program. So circles for that exact same reason. It's going to turn off some people. But I think that as somebody that I consider myself extremely spiritual, and it's part of my hypnosis practice, what I know is that there's a lot of people that practice or have these beliefs in secret, right? They might not say it. And, you know, they'll never admit to it, but I am on my podcast, I had the opportunity to introduce a PhD candidate that deals with medical science literature, I believe, was what they said. And she said, I have taken my education to this level, because I want to have spiritual conversations with the scientists. And she because they are, they are the most spiritual people that you'll come across. You just got to give them the opportunity when to feel safe not to be open about it. Right, create that safe space, and to speak to them in a language that they understand. So I think the whole world needs it, and why it's such an important part in my program.

Steve Bisson: 43:54

I think it was gonna break into song What we now need, what the world needs now is love sweet love. But for people who are younger, I'm sorry, you won't get it. That's fine. The other thing that I think that is important that you mentioned in your when when I was reading a lot of stuff online, and even here is neuro diversity.

Carolina Guttierrez: 44:13

Yeah, yeah.

Steve Bisson: 44:15

To me,I heard, by the way, 100% agree. But let's say I don't know what that means.

Carolina Guttierrez: 44:22

What neuro diversity means.

Steve Bisson: 44:24

Yeah, what does neuro diversity means and how does that impact my life in general?

Carolina Guttierrez: 44:30

So to me neuro diversity means that I process the world a little bit differently than other people. Okay, aside from that, I think that there are a whole bunch of other things that go along with that. But it at its fundamental level, I think that that's what it means. So for example, part of my neuro diversity is my hearing is extremely sensitive, extremely sensitive, so loud noises, loud music, being in an environment where there's a lot other people talking at the same time. I can't process that. Right. So luckily, we are in a world that is starting to understand that. I think we're being forced to understand that I don't think that we're willingly going there. But that's another conversation when you look at the increasing statistics on autism. And autism is a type of neurodiversity just like ADHD is. So it's just really a process. We just process things differently. And I look at it now instead of looking at it as a hinderance I look at as part of my superpower. It's part of why I can run three full time businesses that all make money, that I have teams that and the ideas just keep coming in i i used to hide my neurodiversity, because I thought no one's going to take me seriously. Right? But why? I was given this this gift. Why am I going to hold this back? And if you can't take me seriously, because you think that I do too much? That's your problem. But if you look at titans of industry, they do tons of stuff. How many things does Elon Musk get involved in? How many things is that virgin guy do their you know, it's just they diversify. So why am I holding myself back and COVID really helped me with that really helped me kind of shift that.

Steve Bisson: 46:18

And I think about neurodiversity. I also think about the increase in auto immune issues that we have, particularly Crohn's disease, which is a dear thing to my heart due to a friend of mine. And I know that I was reading in Israel, Northern Mali, very quickly today how those numbers have kind of like increased steadily in the last two and a half years. And we had a pandemic two and a half years ago. Coincidence? I don't know. But certainly thinking about not only the neuro diversity of our brains, but how it affects our physicalprocess for lack of a better word.

Carolina Guttierrez: 46:50

And I would say that, it's great that you brought that up, because a lot of people think that neurodiversity is just one way. But I know for example, for anyone that's neuro diverse, food sensitivities are a huge issue. Right? Like you tied it in with Chrome's skin sensitivities. There's like two deodorants in the world that I can use that, you know, so I try my best to be a good citizen and not stay. But the reality is, is if I use a regular deodorant, I break out I feel horrible for weeks. So we can translate this into a variety of different ways that neuro diversity shows up in people's lives.

Steve Bisson: 47:29

And you know, there's two things that came to mind. I have very dry skin and jeans are something I've never enjoyed wearing and people like, Oh, you're not trendy? No, it's because I just get the skin. Yeah, yeah. And then the other thing that came up I was thinking about, and this is where you, hopefully I'll make you laugh. Because being entrepreneurs, both of us, I'm like, Oh, I can see an advertisement for you finding the right builder and on your podcast.

Carolina Guttierrez: 47:57

I'll take it, I'll take it because it's pricy. And so maybe they'll send me some tips.

Steve Bisson: 48:03

And I'll definitely put your email into my show notes directly. But as we get close to the hour already, which is went really fast. A couple of things I want to ask you is, so let's say someone says you know what, I really liked the SoCal soul circles peer group. How do we contact you for

Carolina Guttierrez: 48:23

that. So currently, I am looking for pilots to run two different versions of it. And I am looking for Chamber of Commerce, venture capital firms, incubators, entrepreneurs, senators, my goal is not to recreate the wheel, I'm not going to try and recruit independent entrepreneurs into this program. I want places that entrepreneurs already trust, and already go for help in order to run programs through there. So if they're looking for me, great, I'll put them on a waitlist, my goal is to be able to sell this program across the world I want, wherever it is that you have, just like AAA, you can walk into a meeting in any city and kind of get that help. I'd love to create that model with this. And you can reach me for any of my information at book karolina.com. And it talks about all the different projects, my speaking and things of that nature.

Steve Bisson: 49:18

And I'll definitely put that in the show notes. Awesome. The other thing too, is, I was telling you to pre show when we were having we're having a pre interview. I feel so embarrassed. You have a podcast, I haven't listened to it. I feel so embarrassed. Okay. Why don't you tell me more about your podcast so that way, you know, not only me, but my listeners can tune in.

Carolina Guttierrez: 49:35

Sure. Thank you for giving me the opportunity. It's called the voice within podcasts. And it's all about personal stories of intuition. Because I think that I really feel in my heart of hearts that if we created a world where people were able to listen to their intuition more, we would have a different world. And so I really wanted to create a because it is a pillar in my soul circles program. I wanted to Create a show where discussed how intuition shows up in people's lives, everyday people, like a bus driver, or a plumber, or an accountant or whatever. Because intuition is a shared experience that we, as human beings, all have, I don't care. If you're the most strong atheists in the world, you still have that, that, you know, something said, don't walk in there. And maybe you miss the mass shooting, or whatever that looks like for you. We all have that. And so I don't think it's talked about enough. And so I wanted to create something that was authentic. And that turned the tables and made intuition, the story. It's intuitively run, it's intuitively recorded. I don't know what my guests are going to talk about. I invite their intuition and mind to be present and let the conversation go, wherever it's gonna go. I just need to know that we can have we can call the conversation and then what shows up is fun and see what how we react. So because I want my reaction to be just as genuine as if I was listening to it on the other side.

Steve Bisson: 51:08

If you ever need a guest, you can always please Stephen, definitely no play no pressure. No, no,

Carolina Guttierrez: 51:12

no, definitely. I'll send you a link afterwards. I'd love to have you on.

Steve Bisson: 51:16

And then if you ever have a chance, listen to episode 56 that I did with Lisa Dennis. We talked about how that stuff, you know, all the spirituality and we call it woowoo stuff, and how it links to neuro plasticity in neurology. And like, most people, like how did you do that? And then they listen to me like, oh, it's more intuitive than like, yes, exactly. We all have intuition. I believe that firmly. It's not a woman's intuition. And so humans intuition we just met men are taught to kind of like, kill it. But you know, that's kind of the stuff that I would love again, if you ever need a guest, I'm 100% behind that. Awesome. But so any other way that they can reach you obviously, we'll put in the show notes, sir. So talking about the soul circles Yeah,

Carolina Guttierrez: 52:03

with the soul circles program. So circles.ca There is business in order where I help you find peace time and profits through organizing your business back end, we leverage process improvement, system creation and technology implementation that's biz in order.com. And my hypnotherapy practice, sole solace.ca and but if you just go to book Karolina super easy book karolina.com All that information will be there.

Steve Bisson: 52:33

And again, I will make sure it's in the show notes. I'm writing it down. No, but I I will definitely put that in the show notes. I appreciate it. I want to thank you Karolina because that was just a great conversation today went really fast. I know. I definitely like the intuition thing. I can go an hour on that easily myself.

Carolina Guttierrez: 52:51

I get it. I'm going to totally take you up on that offer. So you'll be hearing from me soon.

Steve Bisson: 52:56

I will be available, but wanted to thank you for your time and just because we're both Canadians go halves.

Carolina Guttierrez: 53:05

That's okay. I don't mind rooting for winning team. So I'm fine with that. I know my Torontonians are gonna kill me for that. But that's okay.

Steve Bisson: 53:14

I just needed to say that. I mean, I'm in Boston, I get Go ahead. School gets in trouble around here too. So thanks.

Carolina Guttierrez: 53:23

Thank you, Steve. This was great. I appreciate it. Well, this

Steve Bisson: 53:26

concludes episode 60 of finding your way through therapy. Karolina Gutierrez, thank you so much. It was a great interview really enjoyed it. I hope that you go check her out on her website and her podcast voice within. But episode 61 will be with Katherine DeMonte and I'm looking forward to our conversation. We're going to talk about therapy again, and I hope that you enjoy. Please like, subscribe or follow this podcast on your favorite platform. A glowing review is always helpful. And as a reminder, this podcast is for information, educational, and entertainment purposes. If you're struggling with a mental health or substance abuse issue, please reach out to a professional counselor or therapist for consultation.