E.64 Jay Ball Is Again In The Most Popular Episode With Katelyn Dehey

The most popular episode this season was with returning guests Sgt. Jay Ball and Katelyn Dehey. They  discuss a range of subjects, including partial hospitalization, as well as intensive outpatient, why first responders need a specialized group. We also have a great conversation about the removal of civil liberties when homicide and suicide is present, how it has evolved over the years in the mental health and community justice fields, the challenges of working with state agencies, including the coordination of services. We also discuss the difficult situations where first responders are second guessed in situations where a split second decision must be made and how that differs from other jobs. We also briefly discuss the co response model again and the advantages we all see with this intervention.

The YouTube direct link is here.

Jay can be reached at benevolentguardianconsulting@gmail.com

Katelyn works at Westboro Behavioral Health and facilitates the FRST responders group and can be found here.

Transcript

Steve Bisson: 0:01

Hi and welcome to finding your way through therapy. I am your host, Steve Bisson. I'm an author and mental health counselor. Are you curious about therapy? Do you feel there is a lot of mystery about there? Do you wonder what your therapist is doing and why? The goal of this podcast is to make therapy and psychology accessible to all by using real language and straight to the point discussions. This podcast wants to remind you to take care of your mental health, just like you would your physical health. therapy should not be intimidating. It should be a great way to better help. I will demystify what happens in counseling, discuss topics related to mental health and discussions you can have what your thoughts, I also want to introduce psychology in everyday life. As I feel most of our lives are enmeshed in psychology. I want to introduce the subtle and not so subtle ways psychology plays a factor in our lives. It will be my own mix of thoughts as well as special guests. So join me on this discovery of therapy and psychology. Hi, and welcome to episode 64 of finding your way through therapy. This is the most popular episode and I'm happy to say that Jay Ball and Caitlin Dehey, have come back and won the most downloaded episode of this season. It was a great conversation, we talked about a lot of things that police are put under including the mental health part where they may not be as trained as mental health counselors, yet they are sometimes the ones making those decisions and turn to in regards to that. So I hope you enjoyed the interview. And here it is. Hi, and welcome to episode 53 Or the first episode of season five of finding your way through therapy. It's also Episode Three on YouTube. And Caitlin did not know that until I just said it right now. So that's really good. You know, I like to surprise my guests with anything, everything but again, as we've had every single season and is he said the last time he had peaked in season one a little too early. Apparently there's a lot of people who heard that because it run up really quickly in the season four. So we'll say again that you peak too early. And then episode five will be around but J ball is here. And Caitlin de who is been on for what our third time now. And it's been a great guest really enjoyed her insight. And hopefully she can hold up me and Jay this time. So because, you know, that's just how things are

Katelyn Dehey: 2:22

Give it my best shot.

Steve Bisson: 2:24

Alright, we'll pretend no one knows who you are. But just a quick intro. Jay, if you wanted to start just give me a quick intro of you.

Jay Ball: 2:32

Yeah, my name's Jay ball. I'm a sworn police officer in the Commonwealth of Massachusetts for a little over 18 years veteran United States Army back in the mid late 90s, starting to the early 2000s. And currently almost done pursuing my master's in forensic psychology.

Steve Bisson: 2:55

Welcome and you work with also with the veterans court.

Jay Ball: 2:59

A veteran's treatment court in Middlesex County. Yes.

Steve Bisson: 3:01

Well, as I already know you I'm not welcoming you, but I should welcome you to the podcast. Caitlin, you want to introduce yourself?

Katelyn Dehey: 3:10

Yes, thank you. I'm Katelyn Dehey, I'm a licensed mental health clinician. I currently am working at Westboro Behavioral Health Hospital. I'm doing a partial hospitalization and an intensive outpatient program for first responders. Prior to that, I worked for eight years with advocates in the CO response jail diversion program, which is sort of what led me to want to fill the gap for first responder treatment. So that's where I came from what brought me here. So thanks for having me.

Steve Bisson: 3:44

Well, it was great. Also yesterday, we had to get together and I finally met you face to face, which was nice to meet you. This two years. I've been meeting people virtually way too long. So it was great to meet you live yesterday face to face finally.

Katelyn Dehey: 3:56

Yeah, great was a nice event. Thanks for hosting.

Steve Bisson: 4:00

Yeah, well, that's everyone else's turn at this point, I think. But anyway, one of the things that you've talked about working in Westborough behavioral and talking about the IOP and the partial a lot, Caitlin, I kind of figured out a couple of things. But it might be important for maybe our audience to kind of know the difference because I've ran a partial I used to be a director for a partial and IOP. How would you think it looks different for first and last responders versus just a regular IOP and a partial?

Katelyn Dehey: 4:28

Yeah, that's a good question. I think, for those unfamiliar with the terms, partial and IOP. It's sort of a in between level of care, right? So we have, like outpatient level of care where people go see a therapist once a week, twice a week, once a month, whatever the frequency is. And then there's of course inpatient level of care, when there's a safety issue. We'll go and stay somewhere for treatment for a week or two at the most usually. And then there's this in between level of care that we The whole partial hospitalization or intensive outpatient, or PHP and IOP, and they're the partial

Steve Bisson: 5:04

I think it's a great explanation. I appreciate hospitalization is a five day a week treatment program, it's usually seven to eight hours, sort of like going to a job. And it consists of group therapy, some individual therapy, and medication management.And then the intensive outpatient is sort of a step down from that. So if you can think of the partial as, like a step down from inpatient level of care, like you're still going every day, but or five days a week, but you get to go home and be home on weekends. And then the intensive outpatient program is like even a step further down from that, but still sort of more intensive than regular outpatient. So that's three days a week, usually about five hours. And again, group therapy, individual stuff, not typically medication management. But if you had medication management, in the partial hospitalization and stepped down to the IOP, will typically follow that until we're able to provide outpatient prescriber to take over that medication management. And I think the important thing about having a separate track for first responders is that here, a lot of first responders say most of my stress, like isn't job related, right? It's marriage issues, or it's stressed with kids, or it's stuff sort of at home, or maybe it's trauma from military service, whatever that might be. But when we're really sitting down and talking about it, a lot of the things that are difficult for them in terms of being in a relationship, connecting with their kids, things like that, it really all does tie back to the job because the job is so different than the job that the average person has, right. And so you're talking about being in a high stress environment where whether you're a firefighter, EMS, police doctor, a nurse, you're doing these jobs where your entire shift, it's like, go, go go, it's high adrenaline, there's trauma that you're seeing on a daily basis, and you go home and having to like interact with your kids and your significant other is a lot harder than it is for people who just have a office job or are working from home doing whatever, it's a different level of needing to sort of disconnect from after eight hours or in some first responder cases, double shifts, 24 hours of work, when they come home, and their significant other wants help with cooking dinner or help with the kids homework and the parent the kids want whatever they need from the parents. And when you've been giving yourself to the people you serve as a first responder for that entire shift, coming home and needing to do that same thing is like you never get a chance to turn it off. And so even though first responders are like, well, most of my stresses and about the job. Yeah, that's true, and the fact that the stress comes from outside of the job. But the reason it's more stressful for those people then for some other people, is because the job you have is more stressful. And so I think having that to relate to one another in a group setting with other first responders is something that you won't get in a general track program, because it's hard for people to relate to that. I myself, thought I understood what first responder work with like, and then I worked as a co responder clinician, and I had no frickin idea before I had that job, what it looked like to be a police officer or firefighter EMS, I've nurse doctors, I had no clue and then to see it up close and personal. Like it's hard to describe what the intensity of that looks like to somebody that doesn't do it that. And thank you for also clarifying the partial versus or hasn't done it. And so having other people that get that to intensive outpatient. I'll turn to you Jay for a second and ask connect to to talk about life stress just gives an you like one of the things that I kind of like got from the uniqueness of the work sometimes can be hard to relate to other understanding that can be hard to get from the average track of people. Would there be other reasons you think that might people who have a West irregular jobs, but I guess, you know, keep also from opening up in another track if there wasn't a jobs that aren't first responder jobs. first responder apitrack

Jay Ball: 9:58

As in As a police officer, for example, not wanting to go for therapy as

Steve Bisson: 10:04

well, more likely not going to an IOP. Let's say at Jane Doe University, I'm just making the name up buthaving the general population maybe the civilian population for lack of a better word.

Jay Ball: 10:18

Yeah, sometimes the stigma associated with it. I Kaitlyn, I talked the other day, and I was discussion and we've had this discussion before just actually came up a few days ago, Massachusetts were different than most states. In my opinion. I see buddies of mine that teach, say, for example, mental health first day, they'll teach in New York, they'll teach the firefighters and their class is very, I don't want to say structure, because when you do teach myself first aid, it is a structured class. But they do things a certain way, where a Massachusetts teaching police officers, and I'll say it's a skill. But it's an interesting, it's an interestingphenomenon. It's probably a bad word. But I don't know what it is about us. Other states, for example, you mentioned I LPs, and other treatment plans.I think one on one works for a lot of people, a lot of officers, I know a lot of military members, I know they want to go one on one, they don't want to be in a group. And I knowwhen I hear that, oh, I had to I had three I had four people actually come in. And for a group of police officers, it actually surprised me in the state. If you told me in Maryland, you had a group of 20 police officers, I'd be like, Alright, cool. If you told me that 20 police officers in a room in a group in Massachusetts, and I can't maybe I should go for my doctorate and study why we're different in this state. But it is and you know, you could probably put it around the stigma. But I really don't have an explanation for it. It's just It's differentin this state, for some reason. I don't know why it's not. I don't think it's that officers think they're better than anyone or they're scared or they're I just don't have a word to put with it. I'm maybe Katlyn can hurt her side from the outside looking in. But I just think and we've gotten this discussion Kaitlyn, I go, Oh, yeah, it's not gonna work. You gotta do one on one. And she goes, I know, Jay, I understand this. But I gotta run groups. I said, All right. Good luck with that. It's different. Like I said, Caitlin, maybe you got a different way?

Katelyn Dehey: 12:21

Yeah, I mean, I have a couple of thoughts. One, I think, like, if we're being honest, nobody wants to do group therapy. If I was struggling, and you wanted to put me in group therapy, I'd kind of probably be like, Man, I'm good. It just the idea of it is so stigmatized, in general, like forgetting about the first responder piece, like group therapy in general, it's just not something people are psyched about. And we do currently have a group and I do have first responders in it. And it's small, but it's, it's a group and we're making it happen. But what I keep telling them as the value of having other people to relate to that kind of understand what you're going through, that you can't get from individual therapy. Even as a first responder who is trained to do therapy, it's still challenging to relate to exactly what somebody is going through when you're in the therapists role. And so having people around you that really get thestuff that you have on your plate is invaluable, because it helps alleviate, I guess, the sense of isolation, right? Like when you're going through severe depression or anxiety or you're struggling with substance use, that can be a really isolating thing and having others around you that get it and have what you hear people in group be like, Oh, my God, I can't believe you said that. I felt that same way, like a few weeks ago, or whatever, and you learn from each other's experiences and how people have dealt with things that you might be dealing with currently. So I think there's that piece in general. And then the other thing, sort of backtracking to the value of having a first responder track versus a general population track is, first responders, whether they're police, fire, EMS, physicians, they're seeing people in their community, for whatever right there, whether it's you're responding to a medical or to a mental health crisis or their patients but of yours as a physician.You don't want to be in group therapy with with people who you've arrested or sexually while transported on a medical emergency scene as a patient in your medical practice. You don't want to be in group therapy with those same people, right, that's conflict. It's uncomfortable being uncomfortable. And so having the first responder track specific sort of helps alleviate that chance, right, minimize that chance. It's people that you're not going to be in, in theoryIt'll be with somebody that you transported to the ER a few weeks ago. And so I think that piece helps. And we really tried to be intentional about that we've staggered the Start Times and the break times because the groups are running at the same time as our general track. But we've staggered those things specifically so that like, first responders aren't running into people in the hallway that they might have interacted in those ways with. So we're trying to be really intentional and thoughtful about how we how we do it. And there is, there's valuate, especially for the stabilization piece, right? Long term. It's not a long term treatment. It's a short term, couple of weeks treatment, but it's really for stabilizing whatever the crisis is. And then we can refer to people like you, Steve, and some of your colleagues that I met last night for sort of that more long term outpatient treatment.

Steve Bisson: 15:49

But I think that follow up is so important after an IOP, partial, any type of stuff, I'm going to add something and Jay, you're going to turn to both of you for this too. And I've worked with police officers in different states not as much as uj. Nor do I want to pretend I have the same experience as you. But I gotta tell you that what I've found that is particularly different in Massachusetts than let's say Vermont, Florida, even New York, is the sarcasm game is pretty strong in Massachusetts. And when there is a group setting sometimes that sarcasm really kicks in, especially if it's a bunch of other first responders. So that's my personal observation, because I've read a group too for a while with first responders. And it's not that the fact that I ran a group for a year would have first responders only once a week. But I thought that the sarcasm sometimes kind of like gets a little staggering for some people. And that's just my two cents. I don't know if that resonates to you, Jay, just giving you my opinion.

Jay Ball: 16:45

That Caitlin, what do you say? What I'm saying class?

Katelyn Dehey: 16:51

About sarcasm?

Jay Ball: 16:52

Yeah.

Katelyn Dehey: 16:53

First responders are fluent in sarcasm is what I say.

Jay Ball: 16:58

Yeah, no, it's it's different. I'm not sure. Like, it's funny. Bring up the sarcasm. And, and you have you do have the experience in Vermont in other states, one of my best friends is a police officer at Washington State. And to hear sometimes the things that they do that are different than Massachusetts, I'm like, wow, you get everyone to do that, really. And then I bring up New York, upstate New York, you get you get guys to do that, really. And then we'll bring up like CISM. And after action reviews, after a major incident in Massachusetts, and it's not that we don't do it, but I joke about it in some classes, and I say, alright, we got 20 guys in there that are there probably because you didn't get paid overtime. And everyone's staring at each other complaining and bitching and moaning that they're there. And everyone's got probably something to say I'll say if we have 20 in there. 17 have something to say. Don't say a word to each other. On the way out the door. You've got Hey, you got a second. Hey, you got a second? Hey, you got a second, the same thing when Caitlin I will teach a class. No one says a word. And that's great. No one's gonna volunteer anything. But whether it's at a break, whether it's on the way up the door, whether it's it's awesome to have a coop, but no one wants to do in that group setting. But I do think in Massachusetts where we are pretty sarcastic, and maybe some my buddies in Rhode Island would want to compare states. But other than that, I do think we're sarcastic around here. And obviously, I always refer to Caitlin's. But it is a coping mechanism. And some of the things will Kaitlyn was talking originally, I just thought last night alone. And where I work, nothing crazy happened. And just for example, typical we call a family problem when people hear domestic violence, we have something if there isn't domestic violence, there's no physical contact or anything. That's an argument that married couples or any couples or any person or relationship go through. But you stand there at I sit back now as a supervisor, I sit back and watch the officers handle it. And I got a husband and a wife that can't get along. So they call the police. And the husband is there. And he's saying he's angry at his wife. But he's like, I don't want her to leave the house. I will go to a hotel. She's there and she's having a problem. And you sit there and this is nothing. This is what we do every day. And like I said, As counselors and therapists yourselves, you deal with this. So we sit there and I was sitting back and I'm like, what person what job deals with this, this? It's awful. And we all have little conversations and disagreements in our own lives with maybe significant close loved ones or whatnot. But I sit there and go, no one got hit. No one, verbally abusive, pointed out the meaning whatever it's an argument but it just couldn't be settled. And one person wanted to leave the house that wears on that off so that officers in there could have relationship issues at home and that just that small amount I look at that. Another thingis small as it sounds, and I'm not trying to make excuses or winne. But person, for example, we're having tough times financially, not ourselves, but the United States in the world as a whole. And person driving down the street suspended license revoked for insurance, pet peeve of mine. Because if someone has revoked registration without insurance, they get an accident, a person they hit or just whatever can happen. They have to pay for their own damage that car, the victim or whatnot. But then you hear the story. And I lost my job that I decided to take what money out and go to the casino. And I was losing money. And then I started drinking, and you hear this on and on. And you've got to enforce the law. But you as a human being you feel bad for this person that they're using, although now, by law, you can't let them drive their car while insurance around. But now they've got their car towed. And now they have no option to get to work. They have no option to get where they go on. So it's like, most offices right now. I'm thinking like, geez, Jay, you serious? You think that much? Yeah, I do. And maybe not when I started. But now I'm like, Yeah, because by enforcing that law, and we can't let people drive around with insurance, but now they're only asked it to get to a job to get to wherever they need to be has been taken away from them. And their lives getting worse. Do I lose sleep over it? No. But do I think of it? Yeah. Because and those are the small things. And we can always talk about children dying. We always talk about murders, we can talk about violence, we talk about car accidents, those are the easy. I don't want the easy things. But those are the things that people think of everyday Oh, my God, tell me the story. Tell me the story. But it's a simple things. It's the arguments. It's the it's the people that may not be able to afford to register their car. It may be the refrigerator doesn't have a food in a house with a child and those small things. And just kind of going towards that as stresses for first responders. Something I always bring up in class, I asked everyone in a specific class. Tell me where you're from hauling you bet on. Are you a veteran? And what did you do before you're a police officer? And I get people that sales this I was a student was that and I had one officer from a metro Boston City tell me that she was an office manager or billing manager. And I use her as a description all the time. And I usually pick on Fidelity Investments. So I apologize in advance if I make fun of that. I just just need to try to get sponsorship after this. I go right. But I said what's the and I've had a lot of great answers. I've had butchers in class. I've had people work in grocery stores, clothing stores. She was like I said a billing manager. I said it was the toughest decision you ever made before your police officer. And she looks and she's like, I wore high heels or what color high heels. And think of that her job is important. It was a billing billing for a medical office. That's important, you know, but the toughest decision she had was what heels and she made it tongue in cheek she laughed. But it was now think of that as a police or first responder even in your own lives as therapists and clinicians. Think of that Think of what the toughest decision you have to make every day is it's a heck of a lot tougher than what dress do I wear what suit do I wear with tie do I wear?Car accidents person flees the scene? Yeah, you want to know why someone fled the scene? But also if there's blood at the scene, Jesus the person get injured, am I making the right decision? Are people second guessing me? Are people going to Why did I do that? Why the officer to do that will split second decisions. It's easy to sit there the day after and have an hour two, three or four and go Geez, why did that officer firefighter EMS? Or why did that clinician or therapists make that decision? Well, I had two seconds to make that decision. I had three seconds make that decision. I thought I did the best I could, you know, but obviously you've got the second guessing and not all the information that you know goes out every day. So those are those are stresses that people don't think of

Steve Bisson: 24:05

now and I like how you related it to therapy also because for therapists we may not see the same thing as you but we hear pretty terrific horrific stories. And sometimes it is like is this actionable? Is this reportable? Do I like you have to make that decision? And some therapists said well, you can make it after the session. I'm like, Well, no, I think that's unfair. You got to do it right in front of them. I'd rather get you're in a hole right in front of my face then waiting and and being an a hole behind your back, so to speak. So sometimes that's also like, again, nothing compared to police or first responders. I am not comparing myself to that. But that's the stuff that's really tough. And sometimes I think we underestimate how much therapists and police have a judgment call to make within like you said two or three seconds that can make or break sometimes people and then I was going to bring that up today is that then we get second guessed, why did you not do this or in our particular field in Massachusetts, and I can't speak from other states, but for us now, domestic violence is a reportable thing that we have to do through HIPAA. And is that domestic violence is that not and if you do some, I have my own pet peeves about certain agencies, and I'm going to keep to myself right now and try to be polite. But you report it and you think a good family and you screw up their life, like you said, and they have like a restraining order over something that maybe they're like, You misunderstood what I meant.And then the other ones you go, that's not too bad. And then you have injuries to XYZ or worse. And you're like,and people don't recognize that for therapists. So I appreciate you recognizing that, Jay, and it's kind of nice to see how soft Our friendship has made us made you overall. But I'm not to say that

Jay Ball: 25:56

you brought up about also just touched up by like, you think if 51 awere big and bad, were cops all this stuff. That box you check on say if 50 on a family notified.Some people walk away and be like, Oh, I'm finally 51. I didn't tell the family and also DCF will ask family and you get some people know, or like No. Tell them because maybe you're especially a small department, you could be the one going with the social workers, you could be the one going with DCF to this house. And they may think, Okay, well, it's clear, you know, we'll deal with DCF, or social services at some point. And for those outside of Massachusetts, department, children, families, and then you're showing up there, and now I'm not the person taking your child away. That's not my decision. But I'm the one in uniform standing there. Telling a parent's which another heartbreaking thing is hand your child hand your baby over to this stranger. And the stranger who is entrusted by the government is kind of bring your child to a foster home for the night or a month or a week or whatnot. Those are the things like those decisions in front of people tell them hey, listen, I'm filing a 51. A Well, what's a 51? A explain it to them. This is what I see. I am a mandated reporter. I don't make the decision. But I have to tell this agency for the welfare of these children. And those are tough decisions to get said, No one talks, oh murders, drownings, and this, these are tough decisions. Once again, you all have to make also because you're mandated reporters.

Steve Bisson: 27:41

And I think of Chins also and I don't know if that's still called the case, but sometimes even a Chin's like apparent, and we really need help. And then you explain what a Chin's are, like, Oh, that's not what I want it. Sorry, the wheels are in motion. I really can't stop the wheels suddenly. And that causes a lot of friction. And I'm not going to name again, the agency, but agencies who pay good families and you're trying to get services, and then they kind of like blow it up to bigger than it should be. Or cases. And again, I know, I'll turn to you, Caitlin. I'm sure it happens to you, too. Jay. Sometimes I'll look at a case like oh, this is clearly like, take the kid away. This is this clear as day for me? And DCF says yeah, no findings. It's not, it's fine. And that holding that information going, what the hell is going on? can be very, very difficult for again, I'll talk as a therapist, I don't want to talk for you for first responders. But for me, it's really a difficult situation. I don't know if you guys relate to that, or

Katelyn Dehey: 28:40

Yeah, I mean, I definitely do have the same experience, I think, absolutely having some of those that information and being like, really, like, we're gonna do nothing with this, but we're gonna do something with this other thing that seems much less significant and severe. Okay. But it's hard. It's hard to deal with. And I've worked with officers on cases where they felt the same way like, or they found out that, like, if a letter from DCF, saying, like, your 51k was screened out, or whatever, and the officers would come to my death can be like, Are you kidding, right now? Like, is this real? Be like I Yeah.You know, and I think, do you want a decision to tell families is hard to because sometimes, telling them make can make the situation at home worse? I'm gonna so it's like that decision to like, do we tell them? Well, if it's gonna make it worse, maybe not. There's so many layers to it. And I think the other thing is, one of the things you try to say is like, this doesn't have to be a punitive thing. It can provide you with services, but then there's that piece where you're like, Okay, well, that's the hope that's what we're, we're hoping will happen, but then if it doesn't happen, then it's like, okay, well, sorry that it didn't get you the services that we thoughtMaybe it will add and that's can be difficult to

Steve Bisson: 30:04

do you find the same thing for you, Jay, when you're dealing with child in need of services, which is what the chins stands for. I didn't explain that properly. So I apologize.

Jay Ball: 30:13

Yeah. And you alsochild requiring assistance also us now? Yeah, it's tough. It's tough. a parent, I have 15 year old. Boy, what can you do we have strict laws in Massachusetts now and those with juvenile reform, and not to go on a whole legal side of it. And I believe so on that. But it's tough. Some juvenile reform was done. I believe some of the laws that were specific to juveniles were unfair. But across the board, they were wiped out because of discretion that was or wasn't used on par, some officers that's neither here nor there. But sometimes all we can do is tell someone who is,for example, a missing missing child or person that they're not a runaway or missing child. They just are not they're being disobedient to the parents, they went for a walk around the block, well, you need to arrest him, or we can't arrest your kid for walking away. Well, why can't you they're not listening to me that I'm coming home. We can't do that. Well, you can you throw him in the cell for 20 minutes? No, we can't do that either. And especially in Massachusetts, isyou really can't hold the child, you have to get them to a facility that's approved by the state. But we can't say okay, well, we have we have something child requiring assistance. Well, what's that mean? Well, it's a non punitive, well, should be non punitive way of getting resources for you to help you with your teenager. And but sometimes, you know, probation gets involved because probation. Juvenile Probation does handle it. And you don't know is that probation, probation officers are going to work with you? Are they going to provide services? Or is it going to be very strict, you know, everyone's different in the job they do. So I

Steve Bisson: 31:57

I think it's also very hard to kind of like the other thing that I find particularly, I'll talk a little bit of my little experience with CO response, or the crisis team. And the parents would ask you what's going to happen next? And I don't know about YouTube, but usually, my answer is, truly, I don't know. I wish I could tell you what's going to be next. And that can be heartbreaking if you've got some a kid that definitely needs Niki has needs that need to be met. When a child is out of control, or the parents are clearly not doing their job. I'm trying to be as politically correct as I possibly can here. That's a stressor that's really hard. But a lot of again, you're talking about people not seeing a little bit of the work that we do. I know nurses do that too. And I'm not trying to play down doctors and nurses don't get me wrong. But the general population doesn't know how it is when people like, Oh, you just took my kid away to what's next. It's not like we're going to Disney World because it's not a Super Bowl. It's like, What the hell are we going to do? And how you handle that stress? But for me, sometimes that was even the worst stress than talking to the government agency. Yeah, I think of situations where you go to a house for situation A and then all of a sudden, situation b and c.Come along, okay, I've got this done. But oh my god, there's mold in the refrigerator. It's empty. There's nothing in the cupboards there's animal feces, possibly human feces on the ground. And there's a toddler crawling around, and they just picked up a I'm sorry, if I'm freaking anyone else. Listen, this. But these are calls. These are things that happen when we we as police, fire clinicians in the coal response world, go to these houses and you got a baby putting a pacifier or Binky, whatever your terminology is for it in their mouth. And you're sitting there in shock. And you're watching and it's totally, and I say normal, but it's it's standard. And you're like, oh, Timeout, timeout, the fridge is open, it's not raining, there's no food, there's mold. There's the feces on the ground. Okay, we got to do something here. Those are stressors, because you think Oh, my God, I would never and you don't fault the parent for it. Or the some cases you want. get really angry at the parent. Absolutely. But you sit there and maybe afterwards, after you take your effect, you sit there and go. I'm so glad that my children are in this situation, or how if you don't have children, I've seen officers say, how how does this even happen? There's multiple reasons for happen. And but at that time, that's not the correct it's the correct what's happening at the here. And now. Maybe there's counseling and maybe there's help and maybe there's all sorts of services that can be provided. But at the moment, you're like, I can't allow this toddler to crawl around where the dog went to the bathroom on the carpet. You know, it sounds horrible, but these are the little things we don't think about that you deal with every day.

Katelyn Dehey: 34:56

I think to just to add to that, like, like you said, Jay, those are the thingsThings that can be really stressful for first responders, not only because you're like, just because of what it is, but because first responders are also humans. So you have lives outside of first responder, you have relationships, you have kids of your own maybe nieces or nephews that you're close to or whatever, like you have a human life outside of being a first responder. And so those things can like get to you in a visceral way. When you're seeing things like that. And you're thinking about your your own kid at home, or you see a domestic violence case, and you're thinking about your own relationship. You know, those things, like you said, are sort of some of the things that we don't talk about as much because the trauma bigger traumas are the things that we really talk about when we talk about first responder mental health. Butthe problem is, is that it's the trauma and the being a human on top of it, right? Like you have there's just being a human adult comes with challenges, relationships, and work, andwhat are we having for dinner every night for the rest of our lives, like you have to make sure you know, like adulting is a thing that can cause stress. And then you as first responders, you have to do that. And then you have all these other big things like the trauma and the whatever. And then the little are calls that we don't talk about, but clearly are things that can have an impact. And I think that's why we need to keep talking about it and making it normal for first responders to get support around some of that stuff. Because it's can it all impacts? It's it all comes full circle, right? Well, it's not the job. That's, that's really the source of my stress. Okay, well, we talk more and more and more. Oh, yeah. Well, because of work. Oh, right. Because it's all they're not. They're not exclusive from one another. And I think that's important.

Steve Bisson: 37:01

Finding your way through therapy, Kaytlyn Dehey. Jay Ball. So, we talked about this on a previous podcast, I think we're, we were all on, but I'll repeat it. Sometimes it's not the first trauma. It's the 27th. One. And I use 27. My, because I think it's sometimes like it's those little things like, you wonder you get in your vehicle after making that call that you just described, J. Those are all real calls. And then you go wow,on a check, my niece and nephew, maybe haven't seen him in a while, and then crap at and then it brings a lot of other stuff and family issues. And what people forget you said human being, I think that that's the thing is that we have a job. But then we are humans outside of that. And sometimes I think that when and I'm not blaming any police officers or any first responders, we forget that it's one of those things that I've once worked with someone who had a her spouse was a firefighter. And the spouse came in and she said to him, can you stop talking about the blue baby you held? Like that's how insensitive you can also get from your family because you know, that screwed up someone somewhere. And I think that that's the stuff I feel is also hard, because how can you explain that to a family member? How can you explain that to people? And it's not a conversation like, again, like you said, you know, Billy, oh, you have a story for me, really wants to hear about a fucking blue that

Jay Ball: 38:26

happened to me last weekend. Jay has a story.And my wife knows that I'm not going to answer that question. Or if I do answer that question, I'm gonna go have I got one for you. And then I modify everyone I and I will say, I don't know this for a fact. But I heard that I may have aggravated my uncle because I said something like, Oh, you want to start and I was going on little sleep but a little family gathering. I gave him a story. And I think it was my uncle kind of was wringing his hands at the time. Maybe I was wrong, but people no notice that but that's the thing either. We don't go to these parties. So we don't go to these group events because we don't want to say then or Okay, you want to story. You know, not everything's an episode of cops or live PD. The thing I always talk about those shows live please I gotta stop you. It's It's thinking I thought it was like Law and Order Criminal Intent. Oh, yeah, get me started. That's that's

Steve Bisson: 39:24

DNA test within five hours.

Jay Ball: 39:26

That's what you're gonna be all unraveled. But think of when you watch the shows to people like oh, I watch cops or I watch live PD things when you watch these shows. Have you ever seen a murder? Have you ever seen someone die? Have you ever seen you may see some disgusting apartments which which a person would say disgusting fires, but think of what you may see there. Oh, people are amazed. Oh yes, I see. The officer from Tulsa. Sticks is his name. I can't think of his real name but he's all over the place. ButYou don't get to the everydays the story or the call that I'll be like, hey, Caitlin, can you go by the side desk? I'm gonna send an officer around to grab you, I need you down here now, you know, and cables are coming to settle a standoff American person not going to come help us, you know, with a murder suspect she's coming because we just saw something like, Yeah, this is beyond we need the professional here right now. And those are the calls you see on those TV shows, you know, and we've kind of grabbed some of them, you know, children and and with, for lack of again, descriptive cleanliness maybe or, or just mental health calls. You know, you don't see those as much. Yeah, you see the ones where someone may be running out of traffic. But it's, it's not as overt as that. And that's why there's my pitch for call response. But that's my pitch, get me, give me a professional down here. We know, especially in our department, we know our limitations. And on top of knowing our limitations, we know that we can turn to professionals such as Caitlin and are the agents still use

Steve Bisson: 41:07

it maybe that's a good way to jump back to something that we talked about off air. But you're talking about some police and veterans reaching out more and talking about mental health. And I think that that's part of it, too. I feel like no, no, Caitlin, again, I didn't do it as long as you so I will not I never pretend things I don't do. What I found fascinating is half my job sometimes was to sit there and listen to a police officer talking about his story. And I've told you who I used to ride around round with Jane, you know, like, oh, yeah, yes, stories. And yeah, and that story is about personal stories, not about the police work, but personal stories. I think that you said, you know, Jay, you're saying that people are reaching out a little more about the mental health. Do you think that we're finally making a dent in the system of the first responder system in regards to that?

Jay Ball: 41:53

I'd like to think so. Caitlin, I've put out stats before by blue help. And do we always talk about their low I always say to these higher low. And you know, you always get well, it's high because of this, but it's low because the underreporting right now, also suicides are down. Do I think the number that they put out there is a true representation even today? No, I don't. But do I think that more officers and first responders are looking for help? Yes. Maybe it's because obviously I'm police officer, but I'm kind of involved in the field a little bit. I talked with Kate and Lola, I talk with you a lot, Steve. Maybe it's because of that, and people. I'd like to think people may trust me and come to me. But I haven't seen an increase in people looking to talk to someone. Maybe just for me. That's but Memorial Day was a tough day for a lot of people, not just Memorial Day, the day but before and after. It was a tough day for a lot of veterans who may be first responders also, do I think things are working in 2022. Up to Yeah, I do. Because if I just look back to when I became a cop in 2004. Now I don't think I truly don't think there was any reaching out. And you said about stories that you heard and cruises? Well, let's think about it. The model that we use at our department started in 2003. There was a study done on it by Doherty associates in 2004. So we're looking at that area time where I became a police officers just kind of catching on, but now we've had 18 plus years since then, one I think police are better educated, especially in this part of the country. And that's nothing against any other part of the country. I just think a lot of officers, the amount of officers that have social work degrees that have psychology degrees, they're not saying that somebody had but if you look around master's degrees, it used to be Oh, yeah, come home from war, come home from here, go become a police officer, you get a high school diploma. And yes, when I became a police officer, I got a military and high school diploma. But now you see younger officers getting on now. And not that I never was a formal education person. I think you learn a lot more outside of a formal education. But I will admit that I've learned a lot of things formally also. That's probably a little convoluted, but But it's true. I think we're doing a better I think we're seeing things I think we're learning things I think we're sharing with each other a little bit more. I have no problem telling stories of mine and class I have no problem telling you guys who I work with different things about myself and hope that they open up because I really don't know I don't care, don't people stuff if you've got a problem with it, and now it's not my problem. It's it's theirs. I know that's kind of back to that sarcasm and off the cuff kind of thing that we do as police officers, but I have no problem saying that I've I've had issues in the past zero. Because I know at the end of the day, I can ask people in different police departments and I know saying oh yeah, Jay is still that crazy cop, you know, he'll do it. You know he'll do this he'll do that. But then theThey things have affected me over the years. So I think we are doing a better job. And I say we as in professionals like yourselves, police officers, and anyone helping out the amount of friends. I know I have circle friends, now police officers that are into mental health and to different things. It's amazing how many police I don't think people realize how many police officers actually have gotten into, I say, they've got the social work degrees. And I don't think people realize how many police officers actually have PhDs have degrees in psychology and sociology, social work and stuff.

Steve Bisson: 45:34

Katelyn

Katelyn Dehey: 45:36

I agree, I think, even from when I started CCO response in 2014, I think it's come a long way. I agree, Steve, I 100% spent many hours and cruisers thinking, wow. Because they because they're not necessarily talking to professionals. But they know, as they know that as a clinician who works for the department and you know, sort of been vetted by the department, like the department did my background check, they sort of trust me at a certain point. And they know that I'm a therapist, so they know that they can tell me stuff and then I'll listen. And they also know that I'm not gonna go blabbing my mouth to people about it, right. So it's almost like the subconscious thing where like, they know that you're there. So they're just, it just all comes out. This is one of the things that really made me passionate about first responder work and seeing the gap that there is in first responder treatment across the country, but across this area in particular, was because of that was because I would sit in cruisers with people and say, oh my gosh, like, what if this person was getting treatment? And what difference could that make? Like it could and thinking about like job performance and safety and just all those things, the sort of really, you know, and then doing the Mental Health First Aid with Jay and all that sort of where I ended up here in this new role. So I definitely think we've come a long way. But we have a long way to go.

Steve Bisson: 47:08

Yeah, well, I think the one that most people refer to around here, and no plug just knowing McLean Hospital has a waitlist for their first responders, right. There's a name for it. I can't remember the name of it,

Katelyn Dehey: 47:20

Leader Program.

Steve Bisson: 47:21

Thank you very much. But they have a weightless. And I think that if you told me in 2014, that they're going to there's going to be a waitlist of the Leader program I would have laughed And today we're getting there. So I do see that I see a lot of first responders come to therapy more often. And that's the that's the stuff that I think we've done it. I don't want to misquote someone I think we all know, but police officers or social workers with guns anyway.And I don't want to misquote anyone we know so I'm not gonna say the name just in case it's the wrong quote. But I think that I think a lot of like, I've seen a lot of police officers embrace that, because I remember going into nonspecific departments, or nonspecific probation or parole offices. And I would be so you'd the hug a thug guy. And I haven't heard that term, like I've had a few new people in the last few years. And when I say that, they're like, What? Someone said that to you. So I've seen that also as a good way to kind of like, evolve. But you all laugh because you know exactly what I'm talking about.

Jay Ball: 48:27

Yeah.

Katelyn Dehey: 48:27

Well, I do think that CO response growing in, in the state and across the country is a huge contributing factor to that, because I think it's bringing more awareness to mental health in general and that cops are not mental health professionals. Firefighters are not mental health professionals, but they're the ones responding and responding to these calls. And basically being asked to be the mental health professional, right, like, police officers are able in Massachusetts to Section somebody to the hospital involuntarily. That's a big decision for a police officer to make when they're not mental health training. Right. So I think having a co response has really brought this awareness about the amount of mental health calls that first responders are dealing with. And that they they needs to be that they that assistance. But then on the other side, too, I think stuff that's been happening just across the country in the last couple of years, school shootings or whatever, and thinking about like the trauma that first responders see every day and how that impacts their mental health, their own mental health. I think the awareness of that is growing as well. And I think that makes a difference.

Jay Ball: 49:43

Yeah, you brought up the it's always discussion Oh, police officers can section in Massachusetts. When I worked at a school, I would have social workers who had full power to do that. Look at me go your section, that person and I looked down and I was like, No, I'm not. Upprobably gonna get the parent note you eat section of and people I am friends with. And if they listen to this, I'm still your friend. And we've had this discussion, but you want me, there's a cop to section this person, I have no problem. If you're a harm to yourself or others, I have no problem fell at the pink paper and send it to us. I have no problem. As a juvenile. I'm going to look a little bit more. But you have full powers of social worker to Section someone. You want me to do it because why? Well, I don't liability. I have the same liability. And I'm the one that's really not trained in this. Okay. Are you going to hurt yourself? That was the my favorite question. You know, I always go on this tangent in class. Oh, no, I'm not gonna hurt myself. I'm gonna effing kill myself. You know, I say that all the time. Because, yeah, maybe I hurt myself as you know, non suicidal self injury. And people say, Oh, that kid cuts all over their arms. Okay, what were they doing? Have you looked into why they're doing that? Well, obviously, they're trying to hurt themselves. Okay, well, there's a, there's a fine line between hurting yourselves and how they're going to kill themselves. But we're thrust in a role of, and this is kind of where I'm getting to. I am a 1,000,000%, proponent of CCO response. Do I think officers should be trained and in mental health as we are Massachusetts? Sure. But we see some of these agencies come into some CIT trainings, crisis intervention trainings, especially in this area of the country where we're not, we're different with CIT than they are in the West and the Midwest. And they say all these things. Okay, great. It's 502 on a Friday night. What do you do? Well, we'll get back to you on Monday morning, that Whoa, time automaton, it's Saturday at 8pm. What do you do? Well, we'll get back to you, we'll follow up with you know, it's not following up. I need that. Like I said, I'll throw that out there. I love corresponds, I need that clinician there. Or I need further training. My officers need further training to do the right thing, because we are in a roll of Section people, you know, it's easy to say, Oh, we do this, we'll be there for you. Nine to five. Okay, well, what happens outside those hours? What happens on the weekend, but if I have a clinician there or a clinician available to me, in smaller towns, we're lucky, we're a larger jurisdiction where we have clinicians whenever we want them. Smaller towns share one clinician, but they at least have them by phone. Okay. You can't tell me that. At six o'clock on a Friday night. We'll call you Monday morning. That doesn't work. I need a clinician on that phone. Even if they're four miles away out of the partner where we're sharing a question, at least I know, I can rely on them. And they have their people, their doctors who they can rely on. Because I don't want to send someone to the hospital involuntarily. Have I done a lot my career? Absolutely, for reason and cause but if I can rely on the professionals, meaning yourself and Caitlin your colleagues, I'd rather do that. And some of the clinicians obviously have to call the doctor to get that. So let's get this. I think police should have the power to Section people. All right, and I won't go off on a tangent. I promise, Steve, I believe that they should, because we're there. 24/7. But think of this. Someone like yourselves, who are trained have master's degrees in this have to call a doctorto send someone to the hospital. It's mind boggling sometimes. I'm glad we have the power. I think it saves lives. I think that we do, but we'll get the call from the hospital. Oh, oh, you structure this. And you had a doctor at the ER screaming at you. And it's like, what would you like me to do? Well, this person is not presenting any any suicidal tendencies or homicidal tendencies. Okay. But you know, what, 20 minutes ago, this is what they said. So you're either believing them, which is fine, believe them, because I know you've got a busy er and you, you've been medically cleared. So now you've given them this. But you're yelling at me when I've had a split second decision, and I've got no one there to help meto make this decision.

Steve Bisson: 54:07

And you know, you're going to board them. And that's a problem. And again, we're, we've been talking for an hour again, goes way too fast. But one of the things that I would I would say to you and I find this particularly interesting, Jay, is that I remember in 2004 Sitting there educating, like police officers on how to use a section 12 how the pros and cons and stuff like that. Now we're having a bunch of mental health clinicians and social workers who are not able to use a section 12 and training for police. How screwed up that we have to educate now the social workers and the mental health and the police actually get it. And not again, nothing against the police. Obviously, you've known me long enough for that. But it's just it's when you sit down like it's a total role reversal.

Jay Ball: 54:50

Yeah, that blows my mind. Sometimes it's like, sometimes you wait for that, ER doctor to call. And because you know, it's kind of hinky, but you know it at the end of the day and this is why I want peopleUnderstand, yeah, it stinks. Sometimes we have someone, but when we section someone, we're most of the time, it's because they, they're danger to themselves. We look at as we're saving their life, not this big Oh, I saved the life thing, because no one's gonna give you an award for this. But at the end of the day, the reason I sent to the hospital is because something made me sick. And I have no other backup at that time from a professional like yourselves, at that time saying, This person, if I leave them alone, I'm going to come back. Andyou know, I don't want to get into it, but I'm going to come back and it's not going to be, it's gonna be a different situation.

Steve Bisson: 55:35

on that happy note, I think we're gonna wrap it up.

Jay Ball: 55:39

Yeah, you're welcome.

Steve Bisson: 55:42

Oh, no, I, you know, the one thing I want to say is that these are our conversations. But like I said, if you told me when I started in 04 at the Framingham Police Department, that I would would now be educating my colleagues on how to use a section 12 and not rely on the police, I would have said, You're out of your skull that ain't I happen. And this is where we're at. So it tells you how far police and first responders have come. And maybe we're mental health and social workers have not taken full responsibility for some of the stuff they have to do. And yes, I said that about my colleagues. And I would say to the faces of many people, I have no qualms about that. But next time, I think that what we got to do, and obviously, you're invited again, I want to talk more about the veterans court. But I also want to talk about veterans, and some of the stuff that's going on between, you know, Veterans Day between what's going on in Ukraine, and also kind of like the stigma of like trauma because you know, you're not missing an arm, you're just traumatized. And that's less worthy of disability. I think it would be a good conversation. And with tying that to the treatment court in Framingham, I think that would be a great, great type of thing. That would be very interesting, because it is first responders, but a lot of military personnel and former military have have another stigma that I feel is very difficult to handle.

Jay Ball: 57:03

Yeah, that's a great idea.

Katelyn Dehey: 57:05

I agree.

Steve Bisson: 57:06

So thank you again, guys. And hopefully, you have the section anyone anytime said.

Katelyn Dehey: 57:13

Thanks for having me.

Steve Bisson: 57:15

Thanks, guys. Well, this concludes episode 64 Finding your way through therapy. Thank you again, Jane. Caitlin. Most Popular Jay you're back. We finally got another most popular after I think it's season one, you are the most popular and you're right back. But episode 65 will be my favorite episode. And it's been a heart breaking decision because I enjoyed pretty much every single conversation I had in this season. But I've decided and I stopped my choice on Susan Rogen Dorf, and the reason why is I think that it's nice to swear once in a while, but I also think we went into a lot of great things and I hope that you join me back for episode 65. Please like, subscribe or follow this podcast on your favorite platform. A glowing review is always helpful. And as a reminder, this podcast is for information, educational, and entertainment purposes. If you're struggling with a mental health or substance abuse issue, please reach out to a professional counselor or therapist for consultation.