E.70 Is Peer Support The Answer For The Mental Health Of First Responders and Veterans? Jay Ball And Katelyn Dehey Explore The Answer.

In this episode, returning (regular?) guests Katelyn Dehey and Jay Ball discuss a slew of issues for first responders, including the mental health of first responders, how we can possibly lift it with two solutions that we explore in depth: peer support or just calling it a health issue. Jay and Katelyn bring their insight on the subject, as well as their experience in their professional lives, as well as their teachings to first responders. We also discuss trauma, as well as the cultural competency of the mental health treaters.

Katelyn is currently the Lead Clinician at Westborough Behavioral Health Outpatient Services, with a focus on first/last responders. She is a Licensed Mental Health Clinician and certified Mental Health First Aid Instructor. Previously, Katelyn worked for Advocates for 7.5 years, first as a co-response clinician in Framingham on the 4-12 shift for 4 years and she then helped to launch  the first and only Co-Response Training and Technical Assistance Center(CR-TTAC) in MA, which she managed for 3.5 years. Katelyn's previous experience includes residential behavioral management, supported housing case management, psychopharmacology research, and substance abuse/mental health treatment within the correctional setting.

Jay can be reached at benevolentguardianconsulting@gmail.com

Transcript

Steve Bisson: 0:02

Hi, and welcome to finding your way through therapy. I'm your host, Steve Bisson. The goal of this podcast is to demystify therapy, what can happen in therapy, and the wide array of conversations you can have in therapy. I also talked to guests about therapy, their experience with therapy, and how psychology is present in many places in their lives, but also share personal stories. So please join me on this journey about their Well, hi, everyone, and thank you for listening again, I hope you got a chance to listen to episode 69 on being real, which is a chapter on my book, I talk a little bit about what's in the chapter as well as my thoughts today in regards to that chapter. So I hope you go back and listen to it. And even better go buy my book, which is awesome. But episode, today is 70. And I will be talking to Jay ball J ball is an officer at a police department in Massachusetts and joining him will be Caitlin D who used to be on a team that did the corresponds with Jamie the training for Mental Health First Aid. I've had Jay on from Episode 215 2840 and 53. And Caitlyn has been on since episode 40 and 53. And we have good chemistry. So I hope that continues to show we're going to try to talk a little bit about veterans. And one of the things I always wonder is how do we find good treatment for first responders so hopefully they'll come up today and here is the interview. Well, hi and welcome to episode 70 of finding your way through therapy. It's also YouTube Channel episode 15. So I think I told you but if you then pay surprise, you'll be on camera, but the returning guests and finally returning champ really frankly, Caitlin and J finally got the most popular episode it had been a while j so it was a little bit concerned about your abilities. But hey, you came back just like Syracuse is doing so good for you.

Jay Ball: 2:01

Alright, for now. I can't say almost 5-0 this weekend?

Steve Bisson: 2:04

Don't say yeah. Find a way to screw it up. Well, if they lose to Wagner, we get problems. Appalachian State my friend Appalachian State and J ball in case I didn't say his name and Caitlin D here. So welcome back guys. How about we know it's been a while i know i I've said this before, but we've been on like, what's this is episode number six for me and J Caitlin, you've been on this your fourth episode. So I know that some people may have missed the first few episodes. So how about you introduce yourself j and then Caitlin

Jay Ball: 2:37

My name is Jay Ball. Currently a police officer with the Framingham Police Department Sergeant Science Patrol. I've known Steve but it's got to be over 20 years now. Recently, though, started my own company called benevolent guardian consulting. I've worked with Caitlin Taylor got me It says pretty much we knew each other from work. And then we we can't see the side. And she drafted me and told me hold my arm behind my back saying I had to teach myself first day well, and we started we started doing a few things together. And she's she's kind of inspired me to to help other first responders and veterans pretty much in a nutshell, why I kind of like I'm here.

Katelyn Dehey: 3:26

I'm Katelyn Dehey. I'm a licensed mental health clinician currently work at Westboro behavioral health care hospital as a lead clinician for our first responder specialized treatment program. But before I did that, I worked for a long time in response to diversion fields. And that's how I met Jay. I worked as a correspondent with the Framingham police for about four years and did some replication work with the correspondence model. And J actually shocked the hell out of me and volunteered to teach Mental Health First Aid he like was in my class and came up and was like, Hey, I'd be interested in doing this. How do I get involved in this? And I almost fell over because coming from from J It was it was surprised at the time based on what I knew about J but bad GS. Wow. turned out good. But, you know, I certainly gotten to know you better since then. Right? We've taught a lot of classes and gotten to know each other better. So it's perfect fit actually meant to be so

Steve Bisson: 4:35

I was going to ask for the real story. So I appreciate that. You know, I go back to like you say like, how long have we known each other I think we met in 2000. Yeah. And it's funny because me and J bonded on something which is hockey, not actually a game but someone with a hockey skate and cutting something.

Jay Ball: 4:58

statute of limitations is up and I don't I think I actually nicked the car. So,

Steve Bisson: 5:02

hey, no comment. I don't know what you're talking about. But it was funny because me and Jada know each other. And maybe there was a car next, maybe there was no next who knows. But he looked at me, I looked at him, someone said, Hey, what happened with nothing? That we became friends.

Jay Ball: 5:23

No crime was committed before someone at work. So they committed a crime. So there

Steve Bisson: 5:26

was no crime. There was no damage to the vehicle, as far as I know. There was not. And the statute of limitation has expired. So even if it was, it would be enough, but it was not a problem. So if anybody's listening to this and knows, Jay, you can't charge him. And frankly, I would plead the fifth on it. So we'd be good. Just that I would start off with a funny story of how we met, I thought that would be good. Since that's how you met Caitlyn. She allegedly forced you. Yeah. gunpoint. But you know, what's interesting, Jay, is that I was thinking about how you've always worked like I've known you for 20 years. And when I first met you, you had just come out of the military. And then you met me and you went into you started with the Transit Police in Boston. And I remember you asking me mental health questions then. So I'm happy that Caitlin took your arm and twisted it so that you get your butt in there. So thank you for that. But you've always been interested in mental health now.

Jay Ball: 6:30

Yeah, I'm glad you have a good man. I thought I could remember I don't remember. I, I would imagine maybe if you're saying I asked this question I must have but I remember

Steve Bisson: 6:39

a call from you weren't even in Boston, but you were stationed in Boston, you have to go away. And there was like a, it was a suicide of some sort. And you'd ask me for pointers. So well, and you know what I said? I don't know.

Jay Ball: 6:55

I must that's that's a great memory. So it's weird. Actually, we had a we had a class today. And I don't know how much. I'm glad Steve remembers it. But I was I was mentioning stuff with PTSD about how sometimes you forget things. And I'm not sure if that has anything to do. That situation is a thing to do. But it's funny, I don't remember that. But I'm glad. I'm glad that did not evolve and start back in 2000. It obviously took till 2017 or 18. For for stuff to happen through through Caitlin but Stephen have started in 2000.

Steve Bisson: 7:25

I would argue 2004 Because that's when you went into the transit to those four. Just saying, not trying to say that my memories good on this. I'm just saying.

Katelyn Dehey: 7:34

I'm happy to share the credit with you for getting j into mental health. I won't take it off.

Steve Bisson: 7:40

I've learned a long time ago taking credit for someone getting anything in life is useless. If they did it. They did it. I don't care. But yeah, that's I want it but in all seriousness, do there is even a call I remember where you know, you had call me because someone was really agitated and happened to be one of my clients. Oh, and, you know, you've always been interested in that. So, and again, all joking aside, what gets you to the point where you're like, No, I really want to get more involved like you did with Caitlin.

Jay Ball: 8:10

I don't know. You see a lot of things. When I grew up. I I always wanted to be in the military. But a few it's funny the two things I want to be in life were in the mirror. If you looked at my room, if my parents didn't move anything now it looks like a museum, but of lavender and my my kids obviously you lived in their daddy I lived in there but it wasn't lavender like it is now but there were Marine Corps posters everywhere. Nine Inch Nails posters, and Massachusetts State Police stuff. That's all he wants to do not be a Nine Inch Nails. I was never gonna do that. But I wanted to be a Marine and I wanted to be a mass state trooper. I was over two on the Marines. Massive please not because I couldn't I want a different direction. I ended up going the army. And then I ended up being like you said Trey as a police officer and went to another department in Milford and ended up in Framingham. But when I was in the military, I saw some things. I heard some things. But you're young, so you just let it happen. Things happen. And you progress on. Now looking back being older, for example, you know, knowing Steve knowing things he said to me, you know, put two and two together, evolving into 2000. You know, through through everything, you go to calls, you see things, you do things. And I think it was probably a time in my life that my wife at the time she worked in the mental health field. I don't know if I laughed at her but I was that's a bad thing was kind of like never interested me, I don't think and then knowing Steve I was always involved. And then things happened. Got to know Caitlyn. And I think it was through a class and get and being involved in first first responders. It just it just kind of I think all dumped at one point everything kind of in my life between the military and policing just kind of kind of made sense. I saw a lot of things happening. I'm a little outspoken, tiny bit. And I noticed and I kind of preach this as look at what we do now as police look at what we do now as military. You never did this before. We've seen things and done things that our friends and family, either one have never heard of. They don't understand. And it has a dramatic effect on our lives. And I think it was almost part of my outspokenness, and the stigma associated with seeking help, if we're changing because of the things we're doing, it's not really it's us, we've we've become new people. But why do we have to lose our jobs? Why do we have to suffer? You brought up suicide? Why does suicide need to come into the picture? And I just I think I want to wanted to help out a new level by telling people it's alright to seek help, and all right, to get involved in mental health.

Steve Bisson: 10:52

And I think I go back to your meeting with Caitlin and again, I know you'll be drugged a little bit. So Caitlin, what's your reaction when a guy like Jay comes over and says, No, I got involved?

Katelyn Dehey: 11:04

No, I mean, I was, it was awesome. Because I was teaching. Now first aid for public safety. As part of our, like, contract with DMH. Through advocates, we were we were had to teach one class a month to police from wherever, across the state across the Commonwealth. And I am not a police officer, I never have been. But I did the corresponds for a long time. So I was responding to calls that the police were going to I saw some things about as close as you can get to really being a first responder without actually being a first responder, I would say. And I had some cultural competence, I would say in terms of teaching Mental Health First Aid for public safety. But if you know anything about first responders, I can be culturally competent, all I want. But it's different when it comes from another first responder. And so teaching, especially police teaching, police was hard even in the department that I worked at Framingham, I worked in for years. And I taught a couple class classes there before Jay started helping and tough like, people that like I know and trusted me and I trust, you know, like as a class, it was like brutal eight hours. So when Jay was like, hey, like, I am interested in this, would you ever consider like, co teaching? And I was like, yeah, that'd be amazing. It just brings so much credibility to to the work right now I have mental health piece down, but having a first responder actually give credibility to the mental health piece of it is really what was important and really, I think made our classes. So good. Like, we had a lot of good feedback on the classes we talked together. And I think it was because we had those two perspectives, you know.

Steve Bisson: 12:58

But I also think that I look back to a little bit of what we talked about in previous seasons. And knowing both of you fairly well, at this point. There was also this like being able to gel together and really connect that really probably help. So it's one of those things that when you think mental health separate from first responders, it's one thing but then you see a first responder and a mental health counselor talk and are gelling and they're making sense. Do you think that that's part of it? Or do you think there's other factors that are involved? Because they had to go to meetings, or they had to go to do some of those trainings? I mean, I don't know. I'm just asking.

Katelyn Dehey: 13:34

I don't know what you think I think for sure. I think that definitely plays a factor. I think I mean, historically, mental health and first responders were at odds. I even just remember like the former director at advocates, Dr. Sarah Abbott, like starting up correspondence way back when the thought of a clinician being in a police department was like, radical, right? It was like, people were just they the two didn't. Two fields didn't collide and didn't work well together. And I think more and more that's happening. I think it's really important. And I do think that half of seeing that police officer and a mental health clinician be. Yeah, but you know, on the same page about staff, like, I do think that helps a lot.

Jay Ball: 14:23

Yeah, I teach one another. That one we say mental first aid class. I teach a few other classes. But the big thing I think Caitlin's and I think if you look back, Caitlin, I knew each other, but we didn't really know each other. I was working on our products. And she was on a shift and she was a supervisor. And then obviously she progressed up into leadership roles within an inner former company. But I didn't know what that was all I knew she was it was enough to say hi. And I think when I went to that class, like I said, I mentioned probably the turning point. Then we started doing classes together and it was almost like I'm sarcastic, she's sarcastic. I can be, I'll say a pain in the ass and say things they shouldn't. And she has no problem firing back at me. And it was almost apart when you know, the co teaching part of it just like cool response on the street. Caitlin would go the back of the classroom when I'd be in front of it, or vice versa. And yeah, we may be doing our own work on our computer. But it was something where, listen, I'm a cop. This isn't my lane. Caitlin, am I right? And Caitlin's head would pop up. And she'd be like, Absolutely. That's the way it is. I think it was that teamwork and fit with Dr. Rabbit used to call it I remember, I'm not letting the cat out of the bag. But Caitlin's waiting, I remember I gave her a big hug at her wedding. And Dr. Abbott said something to the effect of all there they are. They're the buddies that I think it was just, we didn't know each other that well, for that long, but I think it was, we were just on the same path. And we could just point to each other, and not not be cliche, and then the whole finish each other sentences. But when I was falling out of that police lane into that clinician lane, I knew it. And I point at her and she'd have finished that sentence. And when I was in her position, she'd be talking and it'll kind of divert to a first responder, a police. And she'd be like, Is that Is that right? Jay? From the backhoe classroom? Like she would I'd answer her? And I think it was it was just a perfect fit, teach those classes. And I miss I love who I teach with now. But I miss Caitlin, because we just fire back and forth with each other and it was good.

Steve Bisson: 16:29

Oh, how does that feel? Caitlin? I feel like I'm doing therapy now. How does that feel to hear that? No. But in all seriousness, I'm pretty sure the other person you're trading trading now with probably hopefully is not taking that personally. Oh, god. No. It's just how it is.

Jay Ball: 16:45

She'll punch me when she sees me. But I mean.

Katelyn Dehey: 16:49

No, I think I think it's, I think it's true. Like we just we were just taught well together. I think what we're what made a good team. And it's certainly nice to hear that that's that was the experience that I had the similar experience. So you know, we did we just meshed well together in the classroom. And I think that was important, because it's a hard class to teach, like, eight hours, it's something that's required for a lot of departments to go through if they're part of the one mind campaign and to have a dynamic teaching team, I think is important for participants, because otherwise it could be kind of drab.

Steve Bisson: 17:31

But I think it goes a little bit too. Again, Dr. Abbott or Sarah's I call her when she started that in Framingham, I was in and out of those meetings, I was fairly regularly involved. And I remember at one point, I was asking, like, Why do you think this works out? And I said, it's simple. If you know what you're supposed to be doing, they know what they're supposed to be doing. And you can have a conversation about it, it's gonna work out pretty good. If you start trying to be law enforcement in your mental health, if you're law enforcement and try to be mental health, that's always going to be a problem. So I think that probably that's the dynamic you're talking about. And I would say that's the same thing for the call response model at this point.

Katelyn Dehey: 18:08

Absolutely. Yeah,

Jay Ball: 18:09

I've said things. God, even in the past week, we've had instance, on my job, where people have said, You're not saying that person hospital I when I was at the schools for a short bit, you're not seeing that person hospital? And it's like, no, but then I sometimes I look back and on the military column AR and after action review, and sometimes I do that in my head. And I'm like, wow, you know, if I didn't have that experience working with clinician, a therapist or CO responder, yeah, we'll probably and we say Massachusetts, you know, pink slip the person or section 12 Because as much as freemium leads in having clinicians round the clock, sometimes we someone may call in sick or someone may have the day off with the schedule and the timing we maybe they work till 2am or midnight, we don't have someone till 6am 7am. And there are situations where I would say the normal cop through no fault of their own police officers, no fault of their own, will be like not section the person. But with the training and writing with someone like Caitlin and CO responders. No, I'm not. You're taking someone's rights away when section 12 And I know we're talking specifically for Massachusetts, you know, it's different every state,

Steve Bisson: 19:16

but let's explain what's the section 12 is in Massachusetts, there's equivalents to every state. But it's basically taking away your civil liberties for that time being until you're evaluated to be deemed to go back into community or the hospital. But they have all different names across every state but even in Canada, Europe, they all have that so let's explain what it is. So when we say section 12 or pink slip that's where we're talking about so just want to explain that

Jay Ball: 19:40

Yeah, and it's the point where other No it's taken away it's it's almost like arresting someone have you can you can justify someone to the hospital rarely does a doctor call a medical doctor call from the emergency room and say, Oh, well, why did you send this person here? It doesn't happen. Absolutely. In my experience. I've probably heard it happen, you know, maybe I've got one or two calls over my almost 20 years. Well, what why'd you send them here? Why are they here in the ER, we'll explain it. Well, you didn't put that on the slip? Well, I'm sorry, I only have three lines, and we're busy. But this is why they're there. But then as you learn more and more from your co response partner, your therapist, your clinician, with you, the driving, you know, sometimes not everything, they'll find another way to help that person. It doesn't mean you need to, like you said, take away the civil liberties. Maybe it's providing them with resources to get to the next day, maybe, for example, Caitlin is working day shift, and it's three in the morning and the person is in a harm to kill themselves with someone else. Can we get them to ADM? Can we use the resources that the CO response brings to us to get them there? Some people look and say, Oh, I person now and using the C word crazy? Oh, well, maybe they do have something going on in their lives at the time. But are they if we don't put them in a hospital? Are they going to hurt themselves? Or someone else? And that's no, they're not. And those are the things you learn with a program like coal response, and then also to I'm not going to promote one or the other. But in some areas of the country, cit crisis, intervention teams, give officers a basis of how they can deal with mental health calls. And that's a whole different episode. But I think having call response does help and train the officers. I remember being in another town not framing him. And no one wants to take the clinician. I came to Framingham, and they were fighting over who's going to take the cholesterol in the road. I'm like, Well, this is weird. And not that it should be weird. But police don't want to have people with them. It's not because they want to cover things up. And I think I probably mentioned this in another episode. It's just that given my keys in Massachusetts, mostly we ride alone and Boston, maybe different some of the larger cities. We ride alone, and I think it's it's cramping and other departments cramping their style, to have i Oh, where's the junior guy? They can take the clinician. It's not that way in Framingham people like, no, they can come with me. Am I right, Caitlin? Like, it's different?

Katelyn Dehey: 22:07

No. And so through the replication that I did with the corresponds model, every department we stepped foot in, was resistant to having a clinician right along with them. Because a zillion reasons, right? Like, oh, well, if I say something like if I say something wrong, are you going to report it to the chief or you just all the things like, you know, well, that's where my bag goes? Who's going to answer my duty bag goes? What do you think you're gonna share? You know, there's all the reasons, right. But at the end of the day, every department we stepped foot in, once they saw the value that a clinician brings to a call. And the way that clinicians are able to even like, In plain terms, reduce the amount of work that an officer might have to do on a call. That's was always the selling point, like, oh, well, that was great. Like, I don't even have to write a report on that, because you just handled it. Right, like, that's a big selling point. And so as soon as every department where you're in, you know, you get a handful of officers that want to take the clinician out, and they get along with the clinician, they learn things from the clinician, the clinician learns things from the officers. And that's how I got into being passionate about first responder mental health was riding around and go into some of these, like really significantly traumatic calls with fire and EMS and police and like watching you guys be at these calls, and then up onto the next call, but we would be in the in the cruiser on the way to the next call. And people would say stuff like, Well, that was really fucked up. And I'd be like, yeah, it was, do you want to talk about it? Right, and we would talk about it because that's healthy, that's normal to the process, some of the things that's not happening and that over time, is a problem. But that's I mean, that's how I got interested in first responder mental health was through that time, going into the same calls and really seeing the impact it has on people.

Jay Ball: 24:08

Just one thing I want to say because it came up today when I was speaking to another department in Massachusetts, it's been said to me with departments of the state, especially when they critique the embedded they call it the embedded model, and I guess Caitlin's like an embedded reporter, so they're not an embedded reporter. But what really, really irritates me and yes, police, those males and females and police work, but it's a male dominated profession. That's true. And yes, there's a lot of type A plus plus personalities. And I've heard and this is out to my chiefs, my deputy chiefs, not my in my department, but across the United States, Canada. All the Chiefs out there, the managers of police departments, don't interview clinicians who are highly qualified and say to them, Well, I was expecting someone that looked like my grandmother, because other than being extremely disrespectful. Okay, great. Are you going to have police officers that and I'm gonna, I'm gonna attack the elephant room? Are you gonna have police officers that try and hit on a clinician? Absolutely. Are you gonna have ones to form relationships with? Do I know, do I know police officers that are married to clinicians? Absolutely. But you're gonna have to at some point, one, trust your police officers to not be dumb, not saying people can't have relationships, but once not be dumb, and to to trust that clinician as as a professional and not think about liability all the time where oh, I want them look my like my grandma Newsflash, chief deputy chief lieutenants, captains across North America, that's not going to happen. You want clinicians who are I don't care if you're male, female, whatever, to say something like I need you to look like my grandmother to be in a cruise with my office as well. That's a big, that's, that's a coincidence problem. And that's a departmental problem. So like I said, to all those managers, I know in my department and not just in their fourth point of contact, they would never say anything like that. Caitlin can attest to that. That's not a thing. But to put that on a clinician saying, I'm looking for my son that looks like my grandmother is just blows my mind. It's like no, no, we found a good clinician, male, female, alien, whatever, you know, from outer space, big deal. We found the right person, we're putting them in a cruiser with you, you are traveling with them, you will work together as a team. That's almost like saying, we opened a new department in XYZ widget company, we will but I can't have you there because you don't look like it's that's the same thing. You can't say that. It's like, we're putting click qualified mental health professionals and cruisers, okay. And it said, so many times have heard from multiple departments throughout the United States. I was on the west coast a couple of weeks ago, I heard it from administrators and police department, it just, you know, like I said, I'm not politically correct by any means. But it blows my mind when I heard it. So that's the only thing I want to add.

Steve Bisson: 27:03

I'm gonna add a couple of things. So you said Canada and the US. Let's let's honor also Dr. Abbott by saying that Ireland is also following that model at this point. And I want to give her a lot of credit for that to bring it across the pond now, which is an amazing thing. So that's what I wanted to say. And I think that it is a department problem that they think we read each other's mind, because that's where I was gonna go. And the other thing, too, is any department and this is for not only police, it's for fire, it's for paramedics is for therapists, there's always going to be like a bunch of people who are going to be curious, wanting to embrace a new project. There's going to be some we're going to be resistant but willing to listen, and are going to be people who are going to resist it through the through end of this. And when I hear what I heard at one point, this is maybe years ago, but oh, well, what are you going to do about Johnny? Who's resistant? Nothing? Why would you not try to convince chunks? And don't give a crap about Johnny? Johnny doesn't want to use me, that's fine. If you ever needs me, though, they usually call me though. So you know, at the end of the day, even the most resistant ones, really embrace it. And you know, and I'm not, there's no officer called Johnny, I just made the name up. But that happened in many departments. And eventually, the guys who are the most resistance are the ones are like, Oh, this shit works like yeah, does work.

Katelyn Dehey: 28:24

I had an officer that I worked with, in one department, and he wouldn't take me out like to drive around for a shift. But once a couple of after a couple of times, seeing me on a call that he responded to that it was helpful. If he needed me on a call, he would come pick me up at the station. But he would, he would pick when I when I went to get in the car, he would put his duty bag in the center console neck between the two of us and he'd hold on to it on the way to the call. And while we're at the call, he put the bag back and then you'd move it again for me to go back to the station. And then we get back to the station and back the bag would go and that was that was just how it was every time and that was fine. Like no offense taken. Like the way I tell you guys to train correspondences clinicians was when you're in a cruiser, you're in their office, like that's where they spend all their time. So you're essentially like, sitting on their desk when you're in that front seat of the car. Right? Like, that's where they keep their stuff their you know, their notepad, their ticket book, their hand sanitizer, all that stuff was right in that bag. And if you're there that sort of an invasion of their space, right? So it's never a personal thing. It's just that once like I said, once he saw how helpful it was to have a clinician on a call, he'd come pick me up, grab me there, bring it back.

Steve Bisson: 29:45

And I don't want to give the wrong credit. But someone once said to me something similar. You're walking into their office, you're the invited guests in their office. So you got to act like an invited guest. Eventually you'll be probably part of it but you're still invited guests, no matter how comfortable you get, and I was always I can't, I can't I don't want to attribute it to the wrong person. But definitely we had that early conversation years ago. Yeah, absolutely. I'd like to shift gears because, you know, one thing that we finished off last episode is we were talking a little bit about veterans court, we talked about veterans. And by the time this is released, we'll be about a month away from Veterans Day. I wanted to talk a little more about that, because one of the, my biggest pet peeve is this. And this is something that Caitlin brought up maybe two seasons ago, personally to us before an interview. And I want to bring it up, because it's an important one. You know, if you're served in the military, and you got you know, you got an ID you got your leg blown up, you got your arm blown up whatever the case may be. People see that no, yeah, there's a disability, there's a problem. When you've seen someone blow up with an ID or seen five or six, and you have post traumatic stress disorder from that. People don't see it, right, you don't see PTSD. It's in your brain, so to speak. And I was wondering if we could talk a little bit about the trauma not only for like, we're talking about military here, I think first responders, a lot of them are military trained and have been in the military before, but I think it might be a good good conversation to have, and how do we, we kind of attack that stigma? And whoever wants to start first, I'm not hitting the other professional. You're a professional to just a different department.

Katelyn Dehey: 31:25

You know, it's funny, I think about what you said, Jay, in class about, like, if you had a heart attack everybody in class that would come and like try to help you out. But if you were at the front of the class, like talking to yourself and seeing things or you know, you know, acting unusual, right? People would, would not respond the same way. Like they wouldn't run to you and be like, Hey, man, do you need some help there but shy away or pull out the pink paper or run away or whatever, you know, whatever they would do. The to the mental health and physical health are treated very differently, and they really need to be treated as one because they impact each other so significantly, and I think that's part of you also say in class, what's the only officer involved call that it's okay to be messed up from and shoot an officer involved shooting, right, like that's a that's a time where it's accepted in across the profession to be rattled or upset or have some kind of PTSD from but those are officer involved shootings overall are few and far in between compared to horrific car accidents, suicides, murder call, you know, all these big child deaths drownings, right, like all these horrific tragedies that happen in life, and you guys are the ones responding and but you're also humans, you're first responders, but you also are humans, which means you also have emotions and feelings like everyone else. And you have to put them away at the end of that call to go to the next call. But that doesn't mean that it shouldn't be revisited and processed, because then it gets to that point where you it's all it's unseen. Like Steve said, it's not you can't see that trauma, it's just, you know, in your body. And you don't see it. It's not like a gunshot wound. But it's, it's can be just as impactful over time and can end up being really detrimental to a person's life. And so I feel like that's the point that I try to drive home and, you know, with all my patients, is that mental health and physical health are really connected and really important. And it needs to be addressed just as much as that as well.

Jay Ball: 33:47

A couple of things that jumped out at me like, and Caitlin, you said it before, too, and we may have covered it, snap out of it. I had a relative of mine is I never knew this had struggled over the years with mental health. And it was brought to my attention through another relative. And I once in a while sneak into the conversation because it's kind of taboo. The other relative is a older person. Yeah, we have generational differences, good and bad, and how they do and how are they going to be and this person isn't in law enforcement, and neither was in the military. But yeah, they've done this, they've done that, but they haven't snapped out of it yet. And just because it's an older generation that I'm talking to at the time, I don't get in that argument, but sometimes I do get a little irritated and I said, What do you mean by snap out of it? And well, you know this they've done this and they've kind of do it but they just can't I said, Well, if I take a hammer right now, or an accident happens and I shattered my hand. Yeah, bones heal, but are they gonna say Oh, it's good Jays hands in a million different pieces, but it's just gonna reset and I'm gonna go deal with it. So someone's just not going to snap out. I'm not telling you this, but I'm saying to everyone else, you know, especially the first responders and veterans they'll be like How you know it'll pass well, maybe it won't pass. And maybe the things you've seen and this doesn't like said, veteran wise, you don't need to and something I learned was you don't need to come home, burnt over 90% of your body. You don't need to come home blind. You don't need to come home, missing an arm or a leg. And yes, I still struggle with thinking of, well, I've got everything I've I wanted to do in my life. You may have seen things while you're deployed, you may have done things while you're deployed, that have an effect on you. The military's is an awesome, awesome organization. I don't care what branch it is. We'll all joke, especially Veterans Day coming up Army Navy game God at work. Myself, and you know, the Navy, guys, maybe in the army, we joke we say things, but at the end of the day, we're one team, and no matter what branch you're in, things have happened and talk to each other. I think in my police department right now. There are generational differences among the veterans. But I think we do a great job and we have a lieutenant that kind of rallies all the veterans together. I think we're an informal support for each other. Because everyone's experiences are different. Everyone grew up different in the military being such a unique organization. I mean, I always remember the first thing I heard when I got into the chow hall in 1995. I didn't know what grits were, I had no idea what grits were, you may have seen it on TV, I could go into a whole bunch of quotes on TV about grits, never knew where they are. I met a kid from South Carolina. And he made a joke Democrats. The heck are grits All I saw was this white stuff on my plate. And I'm like, alright, well, that's what I'm meeting I guess with some of these eggs and whatever. Whatever mystery meat that is. But you think of it. I grew up in Lawrence, Massachusetts. He grew up in Columbia, South Carolina. That's different cultures. That's different everything but you learn to work together and get through things. Did I grew up poor? No. Did I grew up in a city that's really rough, Massachusetts? Sure. Did I have a rough upbringing? Not really, did I make it rough? Sure. I made a rough on myself. And you could say that about people go into the military, because sometimes it's their only option at a good life. People cringe at that. But it's true. I knew a lot of people that would have ended up in prison, one event ended up so you think of all those different backgrounds melting together, be a team. But now we're sending you to war, we're sending you peacekeeping we're sending you there all has a dramatic effect on everyone. I may go to a domestic incident as a police officer. And one thing what outcome comes because I can compartmentalize I can, I can look at this. But I may also have my partner who grew up in an abusive household. And you're looking at like glue, relax. This is horrible. This is a this is a bad domestic. And then you don't find later that this person grew up with violence in the household. So everyone's different. I think you see that a lot in the military, it's a lot of personalities, a lot of backgrounds, socioeconomic status, and everything affects someone different. So to say, someone didn't lose an arm or leg this that and they may have some mental health problems. Mental health is like Caitlyn alluded to, sometimes we bring up in classes, it's still part of the body.

Steve Bisson: 38:12

Right. And there's a few things I want to add to that maybe in an hour, if that helps. But the trauma stuff. One thing that is one of my biggest pet peeves is I can't judge what was traumatic to you or to someone, wherever they come from, it doesn't matter because for some people trauma is seeing a dead cat on the side of the road. And for some people is seeing a 27 soldier get blown up by an IED. I'm not trying to trigger anyone. I'm just saying that, whatever that is. So if you go your first incident as a police officer, and it's affected you, you need to really be able to talk about it. I think that the newer generation is able to do that a little better than the older generation. And I think that there has been some things around that. But we got to be able to also stop making trauma that oh, well, it wasn't that bad. Why can't you just handle it? Well, no, it's not who the hell am I to judge what's bad and good. And I want to mention that because that happens a whole lot. Because you know, one of my clients who had said that this was a third traumatic event, I'm gonna save the details for protection here. And he's like, oh, yeah, well, I should shut off the first two. So I could check off the third one and like you didn't shake off the first two. That's why the third one screwed you up. And they get that when you go in, but there's such a stigma of like, oh, I shouldn't be affected by that. This should drive me nuts. The other thing I want to say about shattering the hand, if you did take a hammer, put it in your hand right now. They put it in the cast and you'd be in a cast or get surgery and you'd be in there eight to 12 weeks depending on how bad it is. Right? And there's no like, okay, that makes sense. Everyone. You see something traumatic even for five seconds. Well, why don't you get over it in five seconds also, well, no, it could take eight weeks. And we need to also look at it that way. There's there has been some movement and I don't know how I feel just yet about it. That talks Maybe we've got to stop talking about it as mental health or physical health, just call it as health. And I think that might be a good way to start thinking about especially for our first responders, for our military personnel in particular, because if you start putting mental health there's a stigma if you say it's a health issue, they seem to be okay with,

Jay Ball: 40:16

and more not to monopolise, I know that we're looking towards, especially in this is all to do a Caitlin to peer support, whether it's within the department, if you have a Peer Support Unit, and I know they're starting to get more and more in police, if you have a Peer Support Unit. One, if you're trying to start it up, get officers in rank to help rank that people can talk to maybe with some live experience, maybe they don't, maybe they're there, people they trust. Along with that. utilize those things. No one's trying to come for your job. And I know, I just got probably a, I don't know how many people will be listening to this, but I got a big eyeroll from all first responders. Well, they will understand well, you know, dude, it's to the point where you got to let yourself continue to not heal and for lack of a better word be shattered. To ask for peer support, you could just come to me peer support wise and say, I can't do this. And maybe I pointed you towards Steve, maybe I point you towards Caitlyn. And their programs and their counseling services. Maybe I'm just an ear to listen to. But I know of some people, officers, and actually, ironically, military veterans who are police officers who are going through counseling have told me and they post things or talk about things and they're totally bought in and I'm like, wow, who's this person? You know, more than me bought in, but they post things on social media, they, they say things in public, they talk to other people, it's like, wow, this person is really bought in. And once you break, I say run it through the finish line breaking the tape. And finally, when you're all in, then other people back off, that person is doing it. I can do it too. You know? That's why I kind of look at it pairwise.

Steve Bisson: 41:59

I'd like to hear your impressions to Kaitlyn around the peer support stuff. Because I think that's a great idea.

Katelyn Dehey: 42:04

Yeah, peer support is really important thing. Not just for first responders, but in general recovery, it's important to have people who've been through that are in recovery themselves, like having that firsthand knowledge, right? Because yeah, do I can I help somebody in recovery? Absolutely. Can I help somebody process their trauma? Who's from a traumatic call the police or even from a military trauma? Yeah, sure, I can do that. But I can't say that I really understand where they're coming from in terms of my own experiences. I have I have my own traumatic experiences. Sure. But it's not the same type of ability to be able to sit with somebody and say, oh, yeah, you know, you're going through this thing. And, you know, I get it, because I, this happened to me so much, you know, something similar happened, right? You never want to say to somebody that you understand exactly what they're going through, because that's never true, regardless of your similarity and experiences. But the peer piece just makes it again, sort of brings that like credibility back to it, right. Like, as a clinician, I've got a lot of textbook knowledge about these things. But, you know, I never had a problem with substance use. So when I have a client who has substance use problems, can I help that person? Yeah, absolutely. But is it also helpful for them to talk to a peer who has been in recovery from that same substance? Yeah, absolutely. Because they know what that substance does to you physically, they know what that feels like. They know how to, you know, they know how hard the recovery piece is, and how challenging it can be to relapse and all those things that, like I said, as a clinician I can. That's my training, right? That's my expertise in to be able to do that with empathy. But when you have somebody on a peer level that's been through something similar, it's just brings a whole different level of comfort, right? Like, I'm not the only person who's going through this, or I'm not the only person in this field, who's dealing with this, you know, in the front with the first responders. I think it really makes a big difference.

Steve Bisson: 44:12

Let me play devil's advocate, ie be a jerk. So one would argue that, you know, one of the things that I hear all the time that oh, well, you've never had a problem with opioids, or you've never been in a police officer shooting, so therefore, you can't help me only Pierce could help me. I've never had schizophrenia, but I've helped many people with schizophrenia. What if I said to you and again, playing the jerk? Maybe peer support also stigmatizes mental health even more. I'm playing devil's advocate. I figured it was a good question to ask. That's my job.

Katelyn Dehey: 44:45

Yeah, sure. I mean, I think I certainly there people out there that probably have that feeling right. But that peer support, maybe stigmatizes it more but it just brings a different level of connection to treatment. It just brings a different level of connection period. Like that's the nice thing about it. That's why it's helpful for people. I think that is what makes it what makes it helpful. But certainly, you could argue that it maybe makes the stigma more. I

Steve Bisson: 45:15

play devil's advocate, but I do have an answer to my own question. But please, I want to hear you, TJ.

Jay Ball: 45:21

Yeah, I'm looking forward to seeing I believe it. One reason I got involved in Veterans Treatment Court was to help out and like I said, sometimes I'll repeat myself from other episodes, but there's mentors there. And sometimes I saw a lot of mentors, you know, you've got some enlisted people that are clients and Veterans Treatment Court. And all of a sudden, we're assigning them to a former general foreman, former sergeant major or something like that, it's like, timeout, let's get a specialist in e4 to talk to this person. If I was in a normal unit, as even if I was an E five sergeant, I'm a technically a lower enlisted person, regardless of being a sergeant. Why are you giving me a general a Sergeant Major? Yes, at one point, they had to start low as a lieutenant if they ended up being a general. And yes, they were private at one point. But I think it's almost that being on the same level, I hate to break into a social thing. But there's different things at different points in your military career on the peer level that you deal with. And I go on to veterans court, and I want to help people, you know, peer wise, but the bad part of me is, I'm a police officer. And some people forget that veteran part where myself and Lieutenant down here in there, some people we break through, and by the end, when they graduate will say, Oh, wow. Well, thanks for helping me. Not even though you're a police officer, but you know, they want to say it. But I think the peer part of it is, I don't think it really stigmatize I think it's helping some of those guys at work that I talked to, that are also veterans. And I just think that we help each other indirectly. We may not talk about specific subjects, but whether it's maybe an anger issue, or maybe it's a substance issue, you know, maybe having a couple of drinks here and there. And that gets out of control. And you talk to these people. I don't know, I don't think maybe I'm off base, but I don't think that peer stuff.

Katelyn Dehey: 47:14

I don't think peer support should replace professional treatment. Right? I think they're they're two different things. It's two different levels. Right. I think professional support has its place and has its utility. And I think peer support has its own utility that's different. And I think using them in tandem is the best approach.

Steve Bisson: 47:33

And I think that my answer been Yes, I was being a jerk. And I understand that. But my my thought process, I go back to former guests who said to me, like if you you know, someone tries out a kiwi and say, I hate kiwis, I'll never like fruit again. No, no, you didn't like kiwis. So peer support my work for Jay. But for Caitlyn, she needs a professional. And then we go to John and John needs a group of peers with a leader. At the end of the day, I just think that for me, I wanted to just play devil's advocates in the sense that some people will have that thought process. And for me, and if you ever want me to share this story, I might, I will. But you know, there was a guy who couldn't stay sober, that I worked with. And he had this little wooden Buddha on my desk and pearls, like just keep him sober for 15 days. That's all he's got left. He can't, he can't go back. And he's like, Oh, can I have that and keep you sober? He's like, Yeah, I gave it to him. And he stayed sober for those 15 days. Do I really care? What worked? Did I go? Well, no, that's not really a technical thing that I didn't learn that at assumption University, I need to talk to my supervisor. But no, I didn't say anything that worked. And I think that that's the other thing that I want to break as a stigma. And that's why I was playing a jerk here is that if peer support works for you, that's great. But it may not work for you. Maybe you need a professional. Maybe you need to go to groups at your facility. Caitlin, maybe you need to go to somewhere else outside this state because there's too much stigma in this area because you're a lieutenant a captain or whatever. It doesn't matter who you are. I don't really give a crap. But at the end of the day, I think that the reason why I wanted to play devil's advocate is for whoever's listening to this. You do what works for you don't do what doesn't work for you. Don't go see Steve because it doesn't like you like I hate Steve. Okay, well then don't see me and that's fine. It's not personal.

Jay Ball: 49:21

Yeah, I'm not gonna pull the rug from from anyone. But it's like saying, Yeah, peer support, and we'll help each other. But at the end of the day, hey, hey, I've got this friend, Steve. Hey, I've got this friend, Caitlin. Maybe should go. Maybe she'll talk that Nope. See, you're just trying to trick me. I'm not trying to trick you. I'm saying that. It works. Look and see what works. You can talk to me all day long. I'll listen to you after work. I'll listen to you during shifts, I'll listen to whatever I'll pull up next to you. I'll do whatever you want, but I am not a professional. Okay. Why don't you go this way? And maybe the first four times they ignore you. But then maybe part of it is you know, maybe I will go talk to Steve maybe I will go talk to Caitlyn. So absolutely.

Steve Bisson: 49:58

I think that that's why He talked about veterans court. One of the things that I did drug courts, I helped open a few of them across the state of Massachusetts, and definitely help the one up in Vermont when I was there. And people ask me, Well, how do you choose people and there's criterias for that, and veterans court may not be for every veteran that ever existed. And it's people who have a substance abuse issue. They don't all need drug court, maybe drug court won't be the right model for them. Even if they meet criteria, we need to stop thinking that there's a one size fits all for everything. And I think that that's the challenge I wanted to make here. I hope that makes sense. I want to finish on something that again, we brought up privately and I think it's a good goes a little bit with our conversation. There's a training right now that's being done. And you could be a specialized for first responders, I can't remember the name exactly. For therapists, that be trained. And you know, you're recognized as someone who works with first responders. It there's pros and cons to that, in my opinion, I think I privately brought that up. So how do we choose a good counselor for someone because you know, I appreciate J and Caitlin, you've sent me to some people, and vice versa. But I might not be the right match for people. And some people go to other therapists and like, Oh, I didn't like this therapist, I'll never go to therapy again. How do we fix all that stuff?

Unknown: 51:21

Um, well, I'm looking at Caitlyn.

Katelyn Dehey: 51:24

I mean, that's a big, that's a big question. That's a big problem, right? Like, I think, because, first of all, for therapy in general, like, take first responders out of it for a minute therapy, in general. For it to be effective, you have to have a therapist, that's a good fit for you, right? Like, it's just like friends, you don't all coworkers, like you don't all get along with everybody. It's just not how the world works. So having a therapist that you're able to trust and open up to is important, regardless of whether you're a first responder or not. But when you add the cultural piece about first responders, there's this level of cultural competence that has to be there. And that's hard to get as a clinician, right? Because to be culturally competent, you have to have, you have to be sort of exposed to a culture, you have to sort of learn about that culture, right? Any culture, right? Any cultural competence that you're trying to attain as a as a therapist, right, you have to do some research, you have to learn it's it's a process. And so I think that that is, I think, until recently, we haven't thought about, you know, as a profession, that hasn't been a lot of thought given to the fact that first responders and military have their own cultural and need their own cultural competence. Because in a therapist, because it's so important. And there needs to be some level of what better term to use, but like, some level of thick skin to be a therapist for a first responder, right? I can't sit and listen to a first responder unpack their most traumatic call with me, and have me be freaking out in the in the room while they're telling me about this trauma, like, that's not going to be helpful. That's the time that that first responder is going to be like, Why went to that person, I'm never going back because she couldn't even handle me talking about what you know, whatever it was. So you know, there needs to be some level of that ability to handle some of that trauma as a therapist ability to handle some of the dark culture that the dirty the dark humor, I think that we've talked about a little bit on here before the mother, not politically correct language that gets used to sort of get through the day, like those things come up in session. People swear in sessions all the time. Like, like, can't be offensive to you if you want to work with first responders, like it's

Steve Bisson: 53:55

all 911 Yes.

Katelyn Dehey: 53:59

And I think that's hard for for people, right? Because there's also trained as a professional at to, you know, not not use swear language, and you're right, like in your practice, or what, you know, there's a certain training that therapists go through these professional standards, and then, you know, some of that like, it has to bend a little when you're working with first responders. It just does. And I think that can be hard for therapists so finding people who are okay with that can be hard.

Jay Ball: 54:29

So one thing for first responders and veterans that are put out there with finding the right therapist is a couple of things in that mental we always talk about mental first day because it's kind of when Kate and I did for a while there's a sheriff's deputy that was shot Long story short, and in Suffolk, New York, I think it was 98. And they use her video, and she jokes in the video about after her experience of basically almost dying, being shot a few times is that she went through 10 therapists and she laughs about it and I always listen to her. And I'm like, Oh, that's funny. But she did, she went through 10 therapists. And that being said, you could find the right therapist, and I'm gonna joke now I know a guy, no, but you could find a therapist that works for you. And it could be the one person and guess what? They bring up something, for example, yoga, and you're like, Oh, my God, I love this guy. And he's really wants me to try yoga. And I mean, my friend had been resistant to that. But then when I bring it up to friends of mine, who are in the field, and my wife and stuff, man, it's a good idea. No. So could you find the right person who's a therapist, and 90% of it is awesome. And then, but they're there to bring stuff up to you. We've gone through these and you both have said on packing, we've unpacked these things, we've done these things. When, as I call a maintenance phase, hey, putting oh wait there, buddy. Or you're constantly stressed. And I know you don't want to do this, or you maybe your angers, you handled your anger for a while, maybe you should try this. Yeah, your therapist is gonna bring up especially if you're a first responder or a veteran, they're gonna bring up things that you're gonna think are absolutely no way not going to do it. And maybe you don't do it. And maybe it turns into a volatile situation, if all sounds a bad word, maybe it turns into a roll your eyes the next time. Okay, I know you said that. And there's gonna be things you're resistant to. But But stick with it, because you did trust that person. And maybe you break down and do things. And maybe it doesn't fit your comfort level yet, or it never will fit your comfort level. But if you find that person that you work with, well stick with them. Because the way I look is, you're not going to get, you're not going to find the person you get along with 100%. And no therapist is going to sit there. And yes you to death, if they do the wrong person. They're supposed to challenge you. Because think of it as physical therapy. If I blow up my knee, and I need to go to physical therapy, you want to kill your physical therapist because they bring pain to you and they bring, they want you to go over the next hurdle. If you just sit in the chair and go, Okay, I'm here for an hour and you sit there while you're not doing anything for your knee. Same thing, if you sit in the chair and go talk to a therapist, if you don't go through the tough things, and you feel that they're pushing you, you're not going to fix other parts in your life, especially with mental health. And that's why I look at it, you know, they're there to push you they're not your friend, are they going to be nice to you? Well, yes, I hope so. But they're going to push you to get through the next hurdle or the current. Even if it's a crisis that you're dealing with?

Steve Bisson: 57:34

Well, one of the ways I present it to my clients, too, is that I'm gonna you know, how many tools do you have in your toolbox? And most people say in aisle 2030, depending on how crazy they are about their tools. They say, Oh, so you use every single tool for every single job? Well, no, and some of them I've never used. So a therapist is going to give you 2030 42 tools in some way, you're going to be like that's the one I really need that one, I use it regularly. And the other one is useless. I never use it, but it's in the box in case I ever need it. So I tell people that you know, my job is to give you tools and some tools might go to you and that's fine. There's nothing wrong with that. But we're here to give you tools. And my job is not to say most people have heard Oh, poor Jer. Poor Caitlin. And are you okay? Now my job is not that like, alright, let's dig through it and let's work through it. Let's be uncomfortable. And if therapy is comfortable, you're probably doing it wrong. And that's kind of what I say in regards to that.

Katelyn Dehey: 58:34

Yeah, and I think to like, trust piece is really important, right? Like, if you're a first responder and you need to unpack some bad calls, or you're a veteran and you have some serious trauma that you need to talk to somebody about, you have to trust that person. And do I hope that he can come and trust me? Yeah, sure do. But if you for whatever reason, feel like you can't, you can't take it personally, as a therapist, you can't take it personally, if somebody doesn't jive with you doesn't feel comfortable with you to talk to you about whatever's going on with them. Because it's not about me, right? Like, if you're like, you know, I met that Caitlyn, she's really nice, but I don't know if I feel comfortable with her. Okay, that's not about me. I'm not taking that personally. That's what I like, that's you, you have to be comfortable, because otherwise it's going to be a waste of both of our time to try to make it work. Right. So, you know, I would just tell people, like, don't feel bad or guilty. If you have to try different therapists, tell your therapist, you know, this isn't really working for me. I think I need to find somebody else. Like, tell them that that's good feedback to have. That's good, whatever. But like, don't feel bad about that. You've got to do what's right for you. And therapy is only effective. If you're comfortable and you trust the person you're working with. I think that's really important.

Steve Bisson: 59:49

Not everyone's cup of tea, that's for sure. And I've had someone being referred by another first responder, and they couldn't get over the fact that we knew a similar first responder, like, are you going to tell them something? No, I found by lon, but I feel you're close. And then like, like, if this is going to, I'm going to find you someone that they don't know. And I don't like, I obviously will not follow up. So sometimes, like in that person, if evolved people I wrote me a nice note for thank you for giving me the right referral. And he's like, I just felt uncomfortable saying, no, just tell me how uncomfortable it sucks. And I get where you're coming from. I disagree with you, but I'm not gonna force you into therapy with me. And I think that that's what is important. You say, going through 10 therapists, you know, it's maybe you go through four or maybe you go through only one you get lucky on the first try. But you need to be able to say, you know, something's not jiving, something's not say it. And it's if a therapist personalizes that, then really, it's on the therapist, not on the client. So just something to keep in mind for all the veterans and first responders are probably listening to this. And for my fellow therapists who take it personally. My phone number is on the bottom of this podcast, call me we'll talk about it. But again, we got went for another hour again. We did pretty good. So episode 215 2840 53. Now 70, we're going to have another season in this another episode of this are what are we going to do here? Are we going to have to invite our friends, the paramedic or friend, firefighter are we going to do next time?

Jay Ball: 1:01:24

I want to go on at the top, but the prospect for another one? So

Steve Bisson: 1:01:29

you don't have to say yes, there's no obligation. So I want to come back.

Jay Ball: 1:01:33

But I mean, I don't want to be like the pro hockey player. That's like I'm gonna drag it on. Like, I don't want to be Tom Brady. I don't want to can't squat more than 13 points against the Green Bay Packers last week. I mean, I don't want to be that guy. Yeah, I'll come back. Yeah, as long as we're not at the basement after this one.

Katelyn Dehey: 1:01:55

I'm happy to be invited. Whenever. If ever you feel like inviting me,

Jay Ball: 1:02:01

if you want one of America's heroes here and get the chapati, I get whatever it happened.

Steve Bisson: 1:02:08

You know, like the problem is, and for those of you who don't know me, that's fine. But for those of you who know me, I'll wake up the firefighter if he's willing to come in. I mean, I had to wake you up this morning for this one. So I mean, that is not

Jay Ball: 1:02:21

really differentiated at night. Exactly.

Steve Bisson: 1:02:25

So it's the same thing as a firefighter. Really? Yeah. But I again, I always say thank you. But again, I mean it from my heart. I think it's it's so important. And all joking aside, having uj, who just like puts it, not only as a vet as a first responder, but just as a human being, you're so approachable. And Katelyn, that chemistry that you and Jay definitely have here. And obviously I'm, I'm on the side here. I tried to kind of like, but we have good chemistry. It really you know, I get a lot of good response from my clients who happen to be first responders. I get it from people who are not first responders and like, they like it. So you're always invited, but I'll never force you to be here. And if I have to wake you up again, Jay, I'll just call a firefighter. It's funny.

Jay Ball: 1:03:10

I didn't wake up at 714. I'm like, oh my god, I can get two and a half hours more asleep. And then all of a sudden, I see Steve Bisson, like oh my god, seven o'clock. I'm like I lost my mind. I'm run upstairs getting the computer. But one thing I will say is this. I point people all directions first responder wise. If you listen to this podcast, you came upon it somehow. It doesn't need to be me. I see Steve has multiple other subjects here. But look at Steve, look at Caitlin. They're talking to you right now. And they're bringing up topics. They joke, they laugh, they're serious. These are two people and there's millions else out there also. But if you're first responder, if you're listening, grab one of them talk to one of them. I know they're booked up. Sometimes I can make a phone call and get those lists, you know, stick in those lists with them. But if you say oh gee, Steve's easy to talk to Caitlin's easy to talk to you. They seem pretty cool. You can talk to them. This is what they do. They're not some fictional character, on a on a on a podcast, reach out, call us get a hold of Steve get a hold of me get a hold of Caitlin. And we'll see what we can we can do get you in the right program. So that's all I have to say that.

Steve Bisson: 1:04:19

And I'm sure that me and Caitlin if we are full are definitely not able to sneak you in. We will have plenty of referrals that are people we also know that have the same wicked sense of humor, and a little bit of the seriousness and understanding the cultural competency. So definitely has happened to me before, but I may have sneaked one or two in for certain people that I'm not going to mention

Jay Ball: 1:04:40

all me will sneak you in this just makes them feel good that they're booked up. We'll get you in.

Steve Bisson: 1:04:48

Well, again, thank you guys and looking forward to the next season. Well, that concludes episode 70 of finding your way through therapy J ball Kaitlyn D, as usual, great chemistry really loved our interview, but I don't think we touched enough on veterans. And I think I'm going to have them back before Veterans Day, which is coming up on November 11. So I'm hoping that we can get together and do that. But episode 71 is the next episode which will be again a chapter of my book called the unique challenges of first responder. So I will be talking about that then and I hope you join me then. Please like, subscribe or follow this podcast on your favorite platform. A glowing review is always helpful. And as a reminder, this podcast is for information, educational, and entertainment purposes. If you're struggling with a mental health or substance abuse issue, please reach out to a professional counselor or therapist for consultation.