E.74 Let's Hear From A Veteran On Veterans Day With Jay Ball, Katelyn Dehey, and Kyle Pursell

In this episode, we talk about Veterans issues with Jay, Katelyn, and our guest Kyle Pursell. Kyle talks about his experience while in the service, his near death experience, as well as the stigma associated with mental health in the military. Jay contributes with his views from his own time in the military and Katelyn talks about the treatment options and challenges for Veterans, including how help is available but finding those resources can be difficult.

Battlemind is described here.

Katelyn is currently the Lead Clinician at Westborough Behavioral Health Outpatient Services, with a focus on first/last responders. She is a Licensed Mental Health Clinician and certified Mental Health First Aid Instructor. Previously, Katelyn worked for Advocates for 7.5 years, first as a co-response clinician in Framingham on the 4-12 shift for 4 years and she then helped to launch  the first and only Co-Response Training and Technical Assistance Center(CR-TTAC) in MA, which she managed for 3.5 years. Katelyn's previous experience includes residential behavioral management, supported housing case management, psychopharmacology research, and substance abuse/mental health treatment within the correctional setting.

Jay can be reached at benevolentguardianconsulting@gmail.com

Transcript

Steve Bisson: 0:02

Hi, and welcome to finding your way through therapy. I'm your host, Steve Bisson. The goal of this podcast is to demystify therapy, what can happen in therapy, and the wide array of conversations you can have in therapy. I also talked to guests about therapy, their experience with therapy, and how psychology is present in many places in their lives, but also share personal stories. So please join me on this journey about there. Hi, and welcome to episode 74 of finding your way through therapy. I am Steve Bissson if you haven't listened to Episode 73 yet, please do so because it is a chapter in my book called The beautiful mind needs to be nurtured. But with Veterans Day being two days away, we thought we'd do a special episode. And obviously this comes from a regular on my show, Jay Ball. Jay Ball has been on here before. Jay is a veteran of the armed forces. And Katelyn Deneywho works with a lot of first responders who sometimes there's a lot of first responders that have served in the armed forces. And I can't wait to hear her insight. And Jays friend Kyle Purcell, someone he felt that would be great to bring bring on the show. And I'm hoping that it's going to be a good conversation with him. Kyle also served in the armed forces. From what I understand he may or may not share some stories in regards to his views on Veterans Day mental health and other things like that. So here is the interview. Well, hello, everyone, and welcome to episode 74 of finding your way through therapy. I'm Steve, one of the things that Jay, Katelyn had talked about. And I thought it was a great idea. We're about two days away from Veterans Day in. And we always end up wanting to talk about and then we ended up talking about first responders all the time. Today, I'm going to avoid talking about first responders all together. And we have a special guest today that's never been on the show, which I'm really looking forward to getting to know him. So first things first, I want to introduce our newest guests, because the other guys you already know who cares. Kyle, welcome. You want to introduce yourself?

Kyle Pursell: 2:12

Yeah, my name is Kyle. 32 years old. I'm from state of Massachusetts. I'm a Army combat vet. Eight years active duty service. I did 13 months in Iraq. And then I did nine months in eastern Afghanistan. So my first point was 2010 when I was 20 years old. And my second point was I was 23. Overall, for nine months was my second point. Right? Well,

Steve Bisson: 2:36

welcome, Kyle. And it's interesting, because Jay said, Hey, Kyle wants to come on wants to talk about veterans stuff. And I'm like, Yeah, bring him on. So I'm very happy that you're here. And thank you for your service. I appreciate that. I won't wait till Memorial dataset. Of course, that's a joke in case people didn't get it. Jay, how about you introduce yourself?

Jay Ball: 2:54

J ball, but on this million times before? But actually, what did you say seven? Sorry, Ben seven.

Steve Bisson: 3:00

Number seven. You You're like my Bill Murray have David Letterman.

Jay Ball: 3:03

Never. So it's like Groundhog Day all over again. United States Army veteran was in a few years before Kyle gonna be the big four six soon. So a couple years before him. Yeah, just not too much about myself. I like talking about veterans issues in mental health. But I'm glad Kyle's here because he's got a great story to share. And he's an inspiration. He's not going to get into everything. But he's inspiration and some of the things he's done and overcome.

Steve Bisson: 3:31

Welcome, Jay. And Katelyn, how about you introduce yourself a little bit here.

Katelyn Dehey: 3:35

So I'm Katelyn Dehey. I'm a licensed mental health clinician, I worked at Westboro behavioral health care hospital, and I run the first responder program there to include.

Steve Bisson: 3:46

That's, I was gonna ask you to you guys take on that.

Katelyn Dehey: 3:50

Yep. We have a couple of veterans in the program right now.

Steve Bisson: 3:54

Great, perfect. Happy to the program is taking off really good. So congratulations on that. Thank you. So Kyle, how about we wanted to have you on because it's Veterans Day is when this comes out will be two days away. And, you know, I think that Veterans Day, and then the holidays right after that there's a bunch of issues that come up for veterans. And if you want to share a little bit about your story, that's great. Obviously, I'm not asking you to say things you don't want to talk about, because obviously I want to respect them. But I want to hear a little bit about your story and maybe tell me a little bit of what Veterans Day means to you.

Kyle Pursell: 4:27

Okay, join the service right out of high school. I graduated in 2008. And I can honestly say I've never had nothing you have to strive to join the service, but I never had like the push. Sadly, in 2008 My mom, my mom committed suicide pretty much after I graduated high school, so I didn't really have a I had a full academic scholarship to go to school. And I knew that that wasn't like the play that I wanted to do. So I was like, Oh, I'll join the service. So I walked in at 18 years old and looked at my recruiter and said, I want to go to war. My recruiter laughed at me and said at Zion here, and 92 days later I said basic training, I went to Fort Knox, Kentucky, I was a calf scout. So I was an 18 delta. So I did like Long and Short Range Reconnaissance for anybody that doesn't know that. I mean, after I got basic training, like roughly 12 days later, I was boots on the ground in Iraq. So I went total, around five months, I went from a civilian to private and basic training to a private in Iraq with guys that I've never, ever deployed with, never met, and was working my way through it. As Jay knows, I mean, I was good at the service because I was already broken. Like, I grew up with my mom, I didn't have a dad, I was already broken when I joined the service. So I excelled very well, I was very comfortable being uncomfortable, I could do what I was told like it was, it was my so I didn't really grieve in a sense of what had happened at home. So I was just working my way through that I did. My first appointment wasn't bad. I mean, it was the drawdown from Operation Iraqi Freedom to the change over the campaign's to Operation New Dawn. So as the drawdown, we're helping local security forces close fobs and stuff like that. So I came home and it was the reintegration process where it was okay, I've been gone for over a year, I was coming home, I was like trying to figure out I created relationships with people and trying to work work my way through that. Like I said, I didn't have quote unquote, a family like blood family, I had guys that I was in the service with. So you know, as you work your way through, dealing with that, and coming home and having all these emotions, and almost relearning how to be in society, like I mean, I went from not driving a car for a year to you know, I was driving a Humvee for a year, you know, being around people and like it not that it was a traumatic deployment, it was just, you know, working your way through that. So I did the train up, went to a bunch of schools was working my way through the ranks. And then 2013 came along, and they were like, Hey, we're getting ready to deploy to Afghanistan. At the time, I had a wife, I don't have a wife anymore. But she was pregnant, and I found out she was pregnant. And I was like, Well, I'm gonna go to Afghanistan. And you can deal with this on your own for nine months. So I got on a plane, and I went off to Afghanistan, and Afghanistan was a completely different animal. It wasn't anything that three years later, you thought drawdown of Iraq, and what we thought was it was going to be the same way. And it was completely opposite. It was still the Wild Wild West, I operated out of a Ford operating base. So I was attached to a quick reaction force. And then I was also in charge of physical and outside security for my squadron commander. So I was I was a sergeant at the time, so I have my own fire team. Long story short, that was, you know, what we're in charge of transporting to and from making sure his you know, security and his well being was taken care of. And at 23 years old, where you've been in the service, since you've been 18, you thought you knew it all. And you had young guys, and all of a sudden, you know, the guys around you that, you know, start passing away. There was three guys total that passed away within our squadron. Two of them, I was very close with. I won't get into you know what happened, but they were Ke and it was definitely a very big wake up call. We're working our way through deployment. July 13, of 2013. I was within, I would say four and a half feet of 107 millimeter rocket, I was blown down the road, roughly 35 feet, I was placed in a coma for a week, I had a traumatic brain injury. And that was my fourth one. And I was in a concussion Care Clinic recovering. And then I had extensive injuries. And, you know, it definitely was even now, I mean, being the age that I am in working days, I mean, I still have, you know, I get, you know, treatment for chronic headaches, you know, I have the other, you know, situations that I deal with, personally, that I've had to, like, seek outside help with. And in the beginning when it first happened, you know, I was definitely like, oh, I don't need to, you know, talk to anybody, I don't need to do anything. I don't you know, I just this is the way it's supposed to be. This is how I'm supposed to feel I'm supposed to be angry. I'm supposed to come home from deployment and drink myself into oblivion and, you know, not talk about it not confide in anybody, and everybody feels like this. And so I was going through recovery and like doing PT and going through that, and then that was going well, but everything else started to crumble around me, my wife at the time, you know, we weren't getting along. We had a child. And I was drinking a lot. I was just masking the problems that I had, you know, I didn't want to take medication. I didn't want to talk to a doctor that thought they knew where I was coming from what I was doing. I just thought being hard headed like that, that they no idea how I felt they didn't know they didn't understand they never understand. So I got out and 2016 That's when my wife decided to leave me and I mean, I call it what they I I see what they call I had a, I had a staycation at the Bedford VA for a couple days. I do, I had a little rest and recovery, a little, a little oversight at rest and recovery if everybody knows who I'm talking about. So I worked my way through that. And then after that, I kind of was like, alright, this isn't working, you know, and I really started No, I wasn't a service. So I really started working out watching what I'm eating and stop, put the alcohol down and really started focusing on like, what life is per day, not about me. And JF talked about it, like the four foot rule, not what's 25 feet ahead of you that day, but what's four feet in front of you and what you can control and you know, some days, it's an hour ahead. And some days, it's okay, I'll make it to lunchtime. And some days, it's okay, the next five minutes I have to work through, you know what I mean? So it's definitely, from where I am right now, where from where I was, is a huge process and a huge thing. And I mean, it definitely is with I have my own outlook on it. And I mean, I've definitely voiced my opinion, is that where even now the veterans that I meet, I mean, I know that me and Jane are some of them is, there's no, I would say that their morals are there. But they're not selfless to that point where it's like when I was in being selfless, like I could not know your name, I could not where you're from what your background is. But I knew that if you're in trouble I had to take in if I had to take a bullet for you, if I had to do anything for you, I would. So the Veterans Day now as I feel like everybody wants to throw on an army sweatshirt or wear a marine hat on and say, you know, go drink 1000 beers where it's not like I look at the whole thing is what do they say 1% of the population signs up for the service, whether you're black, yellow, green, red, orange, identify as an apple, whatever you want to do that those people step in front. And as cliche as it is they sign a blank cheque for the United States of America. And I take that personally, because I have bled for the sky was almost a star in Arlington. And I've expressed that, like I was almost a number like my child was almost living without a father that was k. So I take that as like Veterans Day. Yes. Some people will never understand. Some people don't have I would say, not the brains are they're just, they don't want to understand it. They don't they don't they don't want to put themselves or be comfortable, you know, being uncomfortable, where you talk about things and you talk to people and it's like, in the profession that I have people will complain about the the wildest, most mundane things. And you know, I'm not saying that someone's problem isn't the biggest problem, and it's not my problem. But when you sit there and you look at the big things, you know, the big picture, it's like, I mean, I hate to be frank or like, shut up, dude, I don't care. You know, like, it's just like, that's guys that I work with, that I don't get along with but I know if the you know, there's a problem are there you know, even as a civilian, I feel like when you are placed in that. I don't know if it's, quote unquote, on like the word being like brainwashed when you're in like, you know how they brainwash you or they say, but like, you take it seriously, when they break you down, and then they build you back up and being you get to wear something on your chest that says United States Army, you get to wear a flag every day. Like that should mean something that should be not just, oh, I can't wait to get out to collect a disability check. And I can't wait to get all these you know, I can't wait to go to college for free or I can't wait to do this. I can't wait to do that. Yes, those benefits are good. But look at the big picture of what, why you signed up why you went about it. So I would say Veterans Day is like when people you know, say thank you for being a veteran like I do. You know, I don't brush it off. But I do think that people do just say it just to say because that's what they say, You know what I mean? Like, we do get people that do genuinely mean it but where it's it's Veterans Day, and it's like, What 2022 And we all have a cell phone and it's you know, I don't talk to people for 364 days, but they're going 65 When it's Veterans Day. Sure shit my phone's got 376 messages that make sure they let me know so they can tell their friends. I have I have a buddy that's a combat vet and I made sure I've been told him today that I was thankful for him. So I mean as Jay knows, I didn't put in the beginning I am a very decorated combat veteran. I do have a purple heart I do have

Jay Ball: 14:30

that wasn't for paper cut either wasn't I'm not discounting football high school. It

Kyle Pursell: 14:34

wasn't spraining my ankle at you know family football day where you were told that but it definitely is. Like I said, I have a tight group of friends that know my beliefs and they know how I feel about it and they know but I would definitely say that Veterans Day and then like as you slowly work into the holidays, like I mean, I know one of the things that I still struggle with is hugely and I try to work my way through it is survivor's guilt. I mean, I definitely, that's one thing that, you know, I've had. I mean, I have like residual effects. Like I said, I have headaches, I can't feel my left leg, I have scars, you know, I have scars on my face and on my back. But I had multiple doctors with all three of our, you know, all four of our brains combined. That are medical professionals that look at me and kid, I don't know how your life I don't have, I have all my fingers, all my toes. And they looked at me multiple times and said, like, I don't know how you're here. So things like I said, that happened to my friends. It just kind of sits with me like, Okay, well, how come I am definitely much better the way now than I was. But when I first came home, that was definitely a huge, huge thing. And then as the holidays come around, and they're anniversaries and Memorial Day, that's definitely a those are the days where I'd have five minutes at a time, not, not four feet. Those are, you know, inches at that. So. Yeah, that's like, that's the gist of it.

Jay Ball: 15:57

So I'll tell him thank you for your service right now.

Steve Bisson: 16:01

No, I can think of is I don't want to thank him at all period. Yeah, at this point. But truly appreciate you sharing the story. Because I don't think I've ever had someone just take over and see the three others just riveted to your story. So thank you for that. I appreciate that. I have about 1200 follow up questions that I want to ask. But because I don't want to go anywhere else. But to figure out about the hard part to me when you said, you know, I don't need anyone. And you don't need to answer that. If you don't want to this obviously, this is just like, that's a mentality that I find with a lot of vets. Because you know, I have my my squat, I have my guys. I've never served them big pussy, I will always admit that freely. But you know, when I get those beds and decide I want to reach out to the other guys, like, what about reaching out to people, you know, people you trust? Why is it so hard for that to kind of like J served what? Give or take five or 10 years before that? Why is it so hard to go see? And I think

Kyle Pursell: 17:01

it was I think it was the cold or the North? I'm not seven days. Exactly what it was. They were still shooting cannon balls and pack and black, right? Just

Jay Ball: 17:12

go back to Moscow. Come on.

Kyle Pursell: 17:16

Find horses, you know

Steve Bisson: 17:18

why you always say keep your powder dry? As I like you're telling me that?

Jay Ball: 17:22

Don't you guys still have horses at Fort Knox.

Kyle Pursell: 17:27

I work on white hat to say some buckles on your boots. But anyways,

Steve Bisson: 17:34

back to my question. Why is it so hard to reach out for maybe outsiders or even like someone like like I said, Jay, obviously served How Why is it so hard to reach out to people? And you don't need anyone? We could go to anyone? Obviously anyone can answer that. But I want to ask you, Kyle, but you can defer to someone else if you want?

Kyle Pursell: 17:53

I mean, I would definitely say I think it's just we've definitely talked about it. But how long has we're talking like how long has mental health been a stigma? How often or when you look at it, and you say hey, like, I'll openly say it I take medication every single day. But it's not, you know, I have to talk to somebody. So when someone asked me now like, yes, you're right, I have one professional does, don't talk to me, I talked to this way of another person I talked to this way. And then I have a group of friends now that I can talk to you on a whole different realm. And when you say off the wall things, they understand that it's just you, you know, being used. So I think for so long. And I would say that we have the one of the best fighting forces in the world. But I feel like we were so behind the curve when it came to like mental health and physical health within the United States government because it was just train, train, train by train fight, you know, come home training award was just so overwhelming, where it was just what we were in Afghanistan for 22 years, we were in, you know, Iraq for 10 plus years. And then we were fighting, you know, on top of everything else that we don't even know about, and the amount of people that come home that it's just where you have older command that looked at you like, Okay, you're fine, like throw a bandaid on it, or, you know, hey, I had these thoughts. Oh, just take some Motrin and drink some water. And those thoughts will go away, you know what I mean? Or, you know, where it's, I think that it definitely now is playing such an effect of the amount of suicides that do happen. That we hear about overall, you know, through through the grapevine or in your profession, or you know, I mean, I know personally five guys that firsthand, first and last name that took their lives, you know, whether what I'm not saying was directly involved in what happened overseas, but overall being in a service and the things that were done and the things how old school army, I mean, even 2008 was an old school army, but it was much different than 2016 When I got out so things that were going on and the way you were treated and but I would say that definitely was kind of frowned upon to be like, hey, you know who's got a problem, if you raised your hand, well, then you were the odd duck in the room. And you know, you're like, alright, I'll just drink beers on Friday night. And we'll go away, you know what I mean? So it's

Steve Bisson: 20:11

my experiences, go back to the chaplain or see if you have a problem. And then the next thing, you know, you're, you're not able to continue to serve. And sometimes that takes away a lot of that stuff. So that's my experience with the vets. And that's why they don't want to talk. I don't believe that stigma has change. But I could be wrong. The last guy, and he was out in 2015. So my information may be a little,

Jay Ball: 20:33

a couple of things that I put out. And one of the classes I teach is actually with all the classes Kate and I taught together. So when you left, we were one of the original groups to go into Bosnia back in the mid to late night, mid 90s. When we got to Hungary, after deployment, there was a lot of moral injury over there in in Bosnia, seeing things that were just not nothing people were used to, especially that timeframe, but you get it out, I remember being a formation. First Sergeant, basically saying the chaplains and Psychological Services are all over here. And the beer tent is over there. You take that they say fall out, and you kind of look towards the tents and stuff and you look towards that, and then no one's there, and you fall out and go towards the bear time. And you end up processing things to do this was in Hungary. It just it was it was stigma at the time. Do I think we've come a long way. Another story I tell is someone that used to do a lot of self harm, not suicidal, it was non suicidal self injury, used to cut himself pretty bad, like horrendously bad. And it was someone asked you I was always tell the story. And I preach to one of these classes, say something help the person did you do this? Finally, after about 25 times to tell the story. So when the class goes, Hey, did you tell anyone I'm like, you suck? Because I did it. And that was probably 9697. And will I do it today? I'd love to say yes. And I would hope it did. But back then no. I mean, what was he going to do get that kick kicked out of the military? Or were they going to label them or something like that? That's, that's part of the some of the stigma associated with with mental health. And the military is supposed to be this big, bad warrior. And everyone is. But also, there's a lot a lot of mental health issues that no one wants to talk about. They just rather throw the you know, get the person out or label them crazy or label them something and maybe that lands in the military. And some people know, and I'm not picking on states or areas of the country. And Kyle can echo this. We've met a lot of people from all over the United States, people that goes back to I have I had a very good friend. He got off his first enlistment. He was from Minneapolis, got out, went back to Minneapolis family wasn't there. Not only was his family wasn't there, then say where the heck they went that move to Montana. And I'll tell him and he went back in. And he retired from the military. You've got people are very poor in the military. It's everything. It's you know, they always say the United States is a melting pot, the military, you've got everything I learned so much from people and how people lived. I grew up in Lawrence mass, okay, from Massachusetts. But even I joke about this. They put this white stuff on my plate basic training, looked at it. What the heck is this kid from South Carolina and I apologize to anyone listening from South Carolina. They have regrets. That's what he said to me. That's all he said. That regrets. Okay, I guess that's what's in front of me, I'll eat. But there's so many people in there. You don't know, like me, if I got kicked out, I know that I grew up. And I have no problem saying this. But the kids I grew up with, they two of them, two of my best friends, both unemployed, both live with their parents, and they're pushing 50 years old. What I've ended up that same way if I got kicked out, so you never know where you would end and I have something outside the military at the time, I will say me doing my and also in the military changed who I was, and gave me I'm not a perfect person, by any means. Kind of will tell you that. But I mean, it gave me an outlook and gave me a dragon sent out to and you could definitely say it gave me a direction.

Steve Bisson: 24:08

Oh, this is the wrong crowd.

Jay Ball: 24:11

Right. But it gave you direction. But sometimes when a person is stigmatized, they get, you know, turning right around circle, and they get kicked out of the military for something like that. Or if they're leaders, like Kyle mentioned, Summer, his leaders are probably as old as me, you know, at the time, but that wasn't understood by my generation at the time.

Katelyn Dehey: 24:32

There are two things when Jay you said, you know, in the military, you're supposed to be big, bad warrior, but there's mental health issues. And I like, like really stood out to me because I in my program, we've been talking a lot about dialectics. We do some dialectical behavior therapy and dialectics basically means that two things can be true at the same time, right? So instead of, you're supposed to be a big bad warrior, but there's the is things that you do as a big bad warrior that may affect your mental health. It can be a big badware, and struggle with what that means and what those things are right, like sort of replacing that word but with and because it's not one or the other, they can both exist simultaneously and both be true at the same time. And I think that that piece is that like, just simple language is something that we really focus on, on on that can change some of that stigma. Because the stuff that you do, as a big bad warrior in the military isn't normal stuff. Like, it's not stuff that the average person does or knows how to do or will see. And so, but you're still a human as a service member, right? So you still have emotions and feelings. And so there has to be room for both. So that was one thing that came up when you were talking J. And then also thinking about, you said, you're like, there are people in the military who were poor and didn't have anything to, like, return back to and Kyle, you talked about, like, your mother's passing you. All right, gonna go to the service. I think a lot of people use the service as a, well, what else am I going to do, right? Like they use it to cope with grief, or use it to get away from a bad situation at home, or I think that's happens for a lot of people. And so that, in and of itself, is sets you up with a bunch of people going into the service, who probably already have some stuff that they've dealt with, right? Because if you're if you're joining the military to get away from something or have to process, grief that you've already had, then you're just piling, the stuff that happens while you're in the military. On top of that stuff that's happened prior to that service. I think that that makes sense.

Steve Bisson: 26:56

You gotta also you know how I think about it. And I hope you understand this is not meant as a judgement. But one out of four people will have a major mental illness at some point in our lives. Even though then less than 1% of the population enrolls in the military, I think a couple of them slip in, and they don't get to reach out for help. And they just get to the area deeper and deeper until it's triggered. We've talked about this before. It's not the first trauma that gets you going sometimes it's the 27th one. And I don't know if that relates to a little bit of what you're saying Kyle and Jay and Katelyn, but I just want to throw that out. Because that's that's what I see is that you can have someone who might have you know, a couple of things went wrong in their lives, whatever that is. And they want to join the military to run away from it and they can run away from it. It works out for them. It's perfect, but for some and doesn't work out that way. For me it's like how can we normalize mental health in a service in general because it's a double edged sword in some ways.

Jay Ball: 28:00

It absolutely is and as some of this jumped in my head I remember when I went to VA hospital and was talking to people them showing me this PowerPoint I actually just pulled it up on Battle mind and I always saw the Kyle Kyle have made a great kind of being blown up and stuff still amazes me. Nobody always says so got my fingers my toes I got my arms my legs and that's the mentality a lot of veterans but Kyle you know battle battle mind right, that presentation. Yeah, I'm really trying to

Kyle Pursell: 28:32

get I'm trying to I'm trying I'm gonna

Jay Ball: 28:33

I'm gonna rip through it. And you

Steve Bisson: 28:35

describe it for it.

Jay Ball: 28:37

Yeah, so battle mind. Like everything. Military is an acronym. So these are all combat skills that you possess while you're in the military, but translating them to civilian life and it's funny if you go through them you looking like wow, that's me. Wow, that's me. So, so buddies and cohesion, that they have the military, and then withdrawal when you get home, withdrawal from people not wanting to talk to people staying away. Accountability. One of the things I was you have accountability in the military, you maintain control your weapon, your gear necessary for survival, but when you're at home, you become angry when someone moves messes with your stuff. Or even if it's insignificant things no one cares about this but you and these are things that may not never change. The First Tee split second decisions that we make in combat another thing decisions are lethal in highly ambiguous environment, Kill or be killed. Anger keeps you pumped up alert, awake and alive. When you get home. The transition you know you have a hostility towards others and appropriate anger assault spells, abuse snapping at buddies or NCOs I mean, if you're still in the military, over action over my you know, two minor insults a noncommissioned officer. So anyone that's enlisted, not an officer, but I can go on and on through battle mind and you know, just the transitioning skills. One big one is There's a couple of big ones. I mean, you have individual responsibility versus guilt. But one big thing that was in, it's not an excuse to be driving like a knucklehead, but you have not defensive combat drive, you know, not defensive combat driving versus aggressive driving. Bosnia, people would take as crazy as it sounds, I mean, people take landmines, farmers and think that doing the right thing, put them on the side of the road, or there will be land mines, the silo road itself, like by the Geneva Convention, or the way we do things in the military, you know, there's a pattern from islands or whatnot. They're just they're in many countries, and there's aggressive driving, Kyle could probably tell stories of, hey, listen, there's an attack and you just go, if people are in your way, you just go. And when you get back here, sometimes you'll pull over a veteran. And you'll ask them, Hey, what's going on. And I've had it once or twice where they legitimately weren't making excuse, in my job that they were driving aggressively for X, Y, and Z reason they caught up in the moment they were thinking of previous life. So but if you if you go through by battle mind, you have a chance to look it up. It's a great program, especially veterans, if they're looking at how things how they're doing back here. If they're struggling with things, they'll work, and it'll show you how to transition that skill from the military and keeping it because what you learned is good, but may not be great in the civilian world.

Steve Bisson: 31:23

I'll link it in the show notes. So that way, if people want to go see it, they will be able to do so. But yeah, so is that resonate to you, Kyle, does that resonate to you? Katelyn, what do you think about? Like, because I don't know what battle mind is? I will I will admit that.

Kyle Pursell: 31:39

Yeah, it definitely has. I mean, I don't like personally. Like I said it coming coming back to like circling back when we talk about like, not saying that you need anybody and I'm fine. I'm fine. When you first get home, you reintegration period, they say, Hey, don't drive for a week, you just made me think of just made me think of a story. I get home, I get in the car. And now my ex wife at the time, you know, she's like, don't drive, don't don't drive a signal. I'm fine. I'm fine. I'm fine. So I was stationed in southern Georgia where one minute, it's sunny and nice. And the next minute it's hurricane for, you know, thunderstorms. And it's thunder and lightning and in the area I was in Afghanistan, which a lot of indirect fire. So even now, I don't like to be outside when it's thunder and lightning because I have, you know, memories and stuff like that. But um, and also because I was hit with a rocket so that there's that. So I, I tried to like, you know, stay out of

Steve Bisson: 32:33

it to me every

Jay Ball: 32:34

time I sit in such a way like, like, it's I stubbed my toe.

Katelyn Dehey: 32:38

Well, big deal. Natural on,

Jay Ball: 32:42

it was. But anyways, I always have to

Kyle Pursell: 32:46

get in the car. And I was on Interstate 95. And you know, southern Georgia and thunderstorms. I'm in the fast lane. I'm telling you the loudest boom that I've ever heard. And prior to being in a conflict with the United States went off and I went from the fast lane, across four lanes of traffic into the grass. And I stopped. I like I said, I looked at my my wife at the time. And she was like, what was that? I was like, I was like, we like I heard a boom, I had to get out of the way. And she's like, Alright, why don't we? Why don't we swap seats and I'll drive for the rest of the time. But it comes into the fact that what you think subconsciously I was like, No, I'm fine. Like what would happen me driving? Like, what would what honestly would happen me driving from point A to point B and A thunderstorm? Like I said, if you go within five minutes is over, and in that instance, thunder, lightning goes off. And I almost cause, you know, a 10 car pileup on that defied with my definitely, like I said, Where turns into like, Oh, I'm fine, I'm fine. I don't need and where now I see where they say, Hey, give it a week. Make sure give it a couple days before you know you start, you know, slowly work into it where it's definitely. And I would say some of the things to definitely with that. I mean, I don't say I wouldn't say I have the most patients in the world. I'm a very, I tried to have a lot of patients. But that doesn't always you know, we don't always get there but but even with just know how it correlates to the civilian world and what you take and how you act. And I mean, like I said, even Jay like we think it's not I don't even like to use the word but we think it's normal behavior now, like the things that we do we consider like normal behavior, where I say like, oh, that's just normal and people look at me like Alright, dude, like, You're a lunatic. And I'm like, No, this is normal. Like what? Like no, you don't feel like this. You know? You don't feel like this to be what like did you talk to somebody I'm like, actually, I got like four or five people I talk to you, you know, you don't feel like this. But I feel like like I said, I like to use the word normal when I bring it into it. But what is almost like your new baseline of what it prior used to be like, I mean, I have buddies that stayed in contact with over you know, Throughout high school, I'm a different person from high school. And when I came back from Iraq, to when I came back from Afghanistan to when I came back to who I am now, like, in working my way through it, so it's definitely, I would definitely say some of the things that, you know, you do bring back and I mean, some of the things are harder to, would say, are definitely harder to manage than others. For some people, you know, some people might not have certain things that trigger them, or you know what I mean, or this doesn't bother them. And that doesn't bother them. But someone else might, like I said, thunder and lightning, we don't get along. So

Katelyn Dehey: 35:33

well, it's the whole experience of being in the service changes your worldview and the lens at which you look at things right. So that it makes sense that you feel like it's normal, because your whole sense of the world has changed. And so, to this new normal, like you kind of like you said, and I think it makes sense that the experience of most veterans,

Kyle Pursell: 35:58

one of my good friends, he was so injured, he is and he's actually, you know, I won't go into detail, but he works for the federal government, you know, he has one eye, and he's, you know, definitely worked his tail off to get where he's at, and the position that he's in, and we were just talking about it the other day, when we you know, check it with each other, and he was going back and forth. And we were saying that if I wasn't a veteran, or like, the things that happened to me, definitely I would have, quote, unquote, a harder time looking at somebody being like, okay, Caitlyn was just saying with the lens, how I was an actor, I was in high school and the things and, and I definitely joined at a younger age. And if you think you're 18, and you can buy a scratch ticket, you think you're a man, and you don't need anybody, but being now you know what I mean, like being now and the things that happened to me and what in the situation's done, I was faced with, I was talking to him, and saying, you know, would it be harder to understand, you know, like you said, Steve, you're not a veteran, but, I mean, I can't speak on that. But when you say like, this happens, but do you have something in your life that you can relate to where it's, I know, some people that I know, personally, their goldfish, Guppy could die, and that's catastrophic. And then I sit there and I'm like, alright, well, I don't, I feel like I have the same feelings when this happens. But my threshold is 100 times what your threshold is. So like, we were just, you know, we were discussing it because the guy's in his capacity and what he does for work, there's a lot of guys that voice their opinions about how tough life is. My man's got one eye. He's 33 years old, when he doesn't take it as that and take it as what pay for me for me, but it's like, alright, know your crowd. And we were talking to you, in a sense, you don't I mean, like, I definitely feel like that's some of the some of the problem too is like, no, your crowd. Me and Jay have been in the same crowd where we look at each other. And like, this guy definitely doesn't know his crowd. And Jay can know exactly who I'm talking about. It's got definitely doesn't know his crowd and who's talking to you, but I'm not the type of person to sit there and you know, check them because if that's how you feel like that's what you think.

Steve Bisson: 38:02

And I think that that's why like when you do the podcast, Jane, Caitlyn, no, and I did the same thing to you, I'll interrupt you, because we got to assume that people don't know. And that's why I say always may not be the same thing as you, but I always say know your crowd. So people are listening to this for the first time, they want to be supportive of vets or what have you. And they have no clue what we're talking about. So that's why I always interrupt you guys. Hey, was that mean was that mean? Just because it's important that the crowd understands. And I call it knowing your crowd also in my job, because if I'm talking to a bunch of teenagers, I'm gonna talk way differently might talk about to a bunch of military or veterans, then I'm going to talk to adults who have been assaulted or some sort. I mean, there's, it's a different language you're going to use. And so I get that, but I think it's important for people to understand that because the threshold is so important, because for some people it is that goldfish dying. And for some people, it's like, I have one eye and you're telling me about your Guppy? It's kind of heavy handed to say that the person

Jay Ball: 39:05

like that, Kyle, tell me if I'm wrong one have done but no one talks about bias and we're not gonna get a big conversation about best words to say along the lines bias, but I find myself sometimes surrounding myself and in our job. We have a pretty strong group of veterans, smaller cliques with inside that group of veterans that are job. But I always think of some Sometimes there was a lot of stuff putting me in the military and one thing is is not being scared. I remember growing up in Lawrence and yeah, there was fights you couldn't avoid. Not 1000 fights all the time was wicked, skinny kid. I wasn't looking for a fight. But what the military changed for me was one thing was, though I don't want my wife to be well, you know, husband or my kids to be without a father. I'm not afraid to die. It doesn't scare me. And when we go on a search for Oh, we go on something. I said, we won't get into the policing, but I just want to bring it to context. I'll have Kyle, I'll have and I could name them by name. I'm not going to certain people. And it's not a bias against non military members, because there are some non military members on a date, let's go. But I think it's just this maybe an unconscious bias. I know that Kyle is going to watch my six, I know that, so and so is going to do this, do that. Do I want I know, but I'm not afraid. And I know if I surround myself with people like Kyle, guys that I work with, it's no snub to non veterans. But it's, it's hard to explain. But I know I'm going in to do a mission or do something with a person that's like minded as me, I know, I don't have to look over my shoulder. And I've got Kyle there. I've got so and so there, this one there. And we don't want to die. But we're conditioned that, listen, we've got a job to do. Okay, we're not developing board games, we're not playing titillating. So we do a job that involves firearms, and going after bad people. And I surround myself with like minded people. And that's something that was ingrained in me in the military. So that's one thing I just want to say was like, everyone's different threshold. People hear me say, I wanted my coping strategies when someone passes away is people die. It's a horrible thing to say, but people die. I think it's just one of those things that gets ingrained in you as a veteran that some people that want it to end don't understand.

Steve Bisson: 41:25

Whether we're My daughter went into school and someone had passed away. And my daughter says, well, technically, we're all dying. And I got a phone call for that. And so because i That's why I tell people, we're all dying, really, some of us faster than others. But ultimately, we're all dying. And when would they call me? I said, What did she say wrong? Like, oh, we'll call their mom. And thankfully, my ex wife was very supportive about that. But that's kind of like, sometimes you gotta have that mentality, in my opinion, anyway. And the other thing that I want to throw out, kind of like, I know that Jay had asked you directly, but can I just turn to Katelyn for a second, because the language you just use, I'm not afraid to die. If you hear that from a civilian population of people who are in a different place, I think that for some therapists, they would like freak the hell out. And so I want to talk a little bit more about the treatment. And there's that like, knowing me know, we talked about in the last podcast, but let's talk about the military knowledge, and also having that what was the word we use? I can't remember.

Katelyn Dehey: 42:25

Oh, yeah. That cultural competence?

Steve Bisson: 42:28

Yeah. Can you talk a little bit about that?

Katelyn Dehey: 42:31

Thinking about like, I'm not afraid to die. When you're dealing with a, you know, as a therapist, if you're dealing with a civilian population with no type of military background or first responder background, it could make certain therapists feel uneasy, like, Oh, are you? What does that mean? And tell me, you know, tell me more about that. Like, are you thinking of having thoughts about killing yourself and that kind of thing, and certainly, with people in the come to me in treatment, if they're military, and they say, they're not afraid to die? I'm certainly going to explore that and make sure that we're in a safety place where we're safe, right, because that's important. But the threshold that I'm going to there's that word again, threshold, right, that's special that I'm going to use for somebody saying that, who's been trained to be Okay, with that is going to be different than the threshold I might use for, say, an adolescent. Right? Like that's, you know, you're going to be a little more concerned about that. Well, why not? Are you having thoughts about that, what's I'm going to think about it and maybe a different, a different lens. And I also think that I, too, am not a veteran, I have zero actual understanding of anything, either you, J or Kyle have been through in that regard. And I think, you know, one of the things that makes it hard thinking about Veterans Day, and people want to think they're veterans and, and that kind of thing. But the piece about it is, is that civilians don't have any understanding of the things that you're trained to do the things that you're that you see, when you're deployed, the things that happen when you're in combat. They don't have, we don't have any idea of what that actually looks like, feels like, smells like tastes like none of it, we got none of that actual understanding. Right. And most civilians don't want to it's some of it's atrocious. People don't want to know what those things actually feel like and what those things actually smell like, right? They don't want to know those things. Because how are they going to sleep at night? Right. That's the sort of civilian lens I think that so they don't try to understand because, well, that's like intense. We don't want to I don't want to talk about that. And so I think that's where that cultural competence piece comes in. That's important for veterans talking to therapists is yeah, like, I don't know. I have no idea what you guys have actually been through Real, but you can tell me all the things and I'm not going to be offended, and I'm not going to get scared and I'm not. I'm gonna listen, right, I'm going to listen. And I'm going to work through the feelings you have around those things with you. But for somebody who's a therapist who hasn't worked with first responders or hasn't worked with veterans, that can be a hard space to sit in and listen to people talk about some of these trauma that comes from combat service, I think it's definitely not for all the therapists out there to do that kind of work.

Jay Ball: 45:34

One thing and I want to say what, because you brought into a good thing having Caitlyn says about about the therapy is, Listen, I got a plan, I got a plan that I want to retire, I want to move to Spain years old. With what I say a state like that, I think that line is I'm not going to go into a place where I'm either have to protect someone or or go get that person or whatnot. And I think that being scared or being afraid, and I think that takes away from you doing your mission. Kyle, if you want to elaborate on that if you agree or disagree, but sometimes you see people apprehensive. And I don't want you to be apprehensive I want you to think it out and do the safe thing. But for example, like I said, we will get into policing. But search warrants I leave the house, I would tell people Yeah, we wouldn't get a gun search warrant. My wife would be like, Oh my God, but you know, she'd be worried. But to me, it's like, whatever, people got guns, we're gonna go do it safe. We're gonna go get we're gonna go complete the mission. Do I want to come home? Absolutely. Do I want to do this? Absolutely. But if I don't, it's an unfortunate event that happened. So Kyle, I don't know, if you want to elaborate on that.

Kyle Pursell: 46:44

Obviously, like you said, we're not getting into that side of, you know, work and stuff. But there's been instances where you stand there and guys are like, well, we gotta wait like, Well, I'm not waiting. So you know, you can wait now. But I'm comfortable in my my capabilities. Like I'm comfortable in the skills that I have and the things that I bring to the table where I know some guys on the civilian side, you know, where I am, the type of person that respect and manners is a huge thing. And no one's going to disrespect me when I'm out in public like my I have a nine year old, that's very respectful of my nine year olds respectful, then you're gonna be respectful. I have guys that are that are afraid to send food back because it's cold. Oh, I don't want to you know, and it's like, something, something as small as that. But I mean, someone doesn't say excuse me in a store, like they're gonna hear like, something's gonna come out of my mouth. And that's just who I am as a person. And that's just like what I've, you know, like, I mean, you know, I'm not saying that I'm a jerk about it every time but where we do. Like I said, in that aspect, where I mean, like you said, I'm not afraid to die, but I'm not like, I don't do reckless things. We don't want to, you know, yeah, like, it's not like, you know, amount of motorcycle with no helmet, you know, driving 150 miles an hour or cage fighting Great Whites and stuff like that. But saying that overall with

Unknown: 48:01

you wouldn't change by the great work. Oh,

Kyle Pursell: 48:05

I think I actually would I take what I'm saying even at work, where it's like, an I was just getting back to the whole it incorporates, like people being selfless. And people being having those, those morals and knowing that even in the job that we have, and brings back to the fact like it's something bigger than yourself, because at the end of the day, you still have to protect Bob down the street that you've never met talked to once but in that time, if it's your time to do what you have to do, you have to do it. And there are some guys that are very apprehensive and very slow to I'm not saying that they wouldn't do it, but they're very slow to I mean, obviously, it's different being a veteran and being in the military because it's like okay, you put me in the beam department the beam Good shot, but I'm hot knew when I'm, you know, happens like it does it happens like it it is what it is, you know, I mean, I'm not saying that it's not tragic and awful. And when you you know, you see these, even, you know, with knowing people that you know, we're Kalia in the military and stuff for the wives, they are upset are very sad for their children, but they take it as like. I mean, obviously my friends but my husband knew what he was doing when he was doing it. You know, he wasn't being reckless, he wasn't looking for a metal he was doing what he had to do in that moment. And when you can look back and I do keep in contact with the wives and they do take it as very honorable when you sit there and know that someone put themselves above everything. Everybody else besides them. They were the last person they thought about you don't want to just definitely It's like a It's not even a touchy subject it just you know, sometimes it drives me crazy. And other times I just accept it. You know, I just,

Katelyn Dehey: 49:54

that's a different different set of values. When you're when you go through military training, you're are ingrained with a different set of values than most civilians have. Right? Not that some civilians don't have similar values, right? That I don't want to say that but it's very different. The values that you're operating from, the principles you're operating from are not like the ones that civilians operate from all the time. And so then you're in that world for such a long period of time. And then you come back and you're plopped into this world where only a few people here and there that you come across are people that have those same values as you and so having to interact with with those people and deal with that as a big, like, culture shock, right? It's like a big cultural change that you have to navigate. And I think that that's challenging.

Kyle Pursell: 50:47

Definitely is because then you feel like you feel like the odd man out when you it's like, okay, this is how I feel, but you're in a pool of 10. And to have you feel this way, like you said, you sit there and now it's like, okay, well, now with the odd ducks up, but this is just who we are. It's not that your your values are what your outlook is, because I mean, like I said, I have buddies that I'm very, very, very good friends with that would never join the military, they came out flat out, I would never do what you did, I'm too afraid I want to sit and don't want to do that. I want to go to college, I want to sit, you know, in a cubicle and you know, when I take that, you know what you're absolutely, but they don't also want to look at me and I have my values. And when I speak my mind, they know that it's not the odd man. I don't feel like the odd man out because it it is what it is. But like you said, the general consensus is in a room of 10 to have you guys have an outlook. You guys are the odd man out. And that's not you know, anybody that's, you know, everybody's got, like you said, I mean, but me, me, me and Jay, being in the military, me and him value things little bit differently. Anyway, something that's more important to me, it's probably less than him or more important to him is less than me, you know, even though I mean, I feel like the baseline of being in the military. That's always that baseline of what.

Steve Bisson: 52:01

And I think that we're you know, we're getting close to the hour, this has been a fantastic conversation, I hope people get a whole lot of it, I want to go back to a couple of things. There is a strange bond, that is a bond, but also kind of like when you had a couple of friends who had a Ka, and you have the bond with that family afterwards. Sometimes that can be triggering for other people, sometimes it can be difficult for them, because it's not an easy thing to do. But you don't ever want to abandon them. Because you know that they gave their lives and they're forgotten on a regular basis. That's what I kind of find a whole lot of times is that Oh, thanks. After two weeks, I always tell people that if two weeks later, that's when you check on people you don't check in within the first two weeks, they got all the food, they got all the check ins in the first two week, check in on the third, fourth, fifth sixth week, and wanted to share that because I think that part of what you're talking about, I don't check in on my military clients or friends on November 11. That's just one day, I don't really care. And do I care because it's Veterans Day, of course. But that's the other thing that I find that happens is that people don't get that it's not just checking on them on Veterans Day, it's checking on them on a regular basis. And so what I want to do to you, Jay and Kyle, and then Katelyn also, obviously, how do we get people to get maybe, you know, coming back from whether it's, you know, combat or not, by the way, just serving in the military is just a good thing? How do we get people to come back and get some support number one, and number two, for the record, I just need to say this because this is important. When you talked about competency mon my other things we've talked about in a different context. I find that therapists who go hey, can you tell me a story? No, they don't want to tell you a story. They want to talk about their problems, and they don't want to give you a story. That's why Kyle, I did not ask you about a story. Jan and I ever asked you about a story nor will I ever asked you for a story. But one of the throw about how do we get the treatment for people who are coming back who served in combat or not, frankly, how do we get them to lift that stigma and mental health once they become civilians? I would

Jay Ball: 54:00

start in something I preach all the time we need our leaders to buy in, no one came into the United States Army is Command Sergeant Major No one came into the United States Army as a four star general. Alright, everyone's got their own beliefs on mental health. People can believe that's the same as a whole bodily health people can say you know, it's a weakness. I am employed to lead us in the military to understand that. You've got soldiers, Marines, airmen, sailors, they're struggling, they've got a lot of things going on on let's see when they actually have their struggles to the probation officers out there and the clinicians. If you're only talking to your client, or you see your client as a probation officer in November, the server every year for four straight years, that should probably be what we call a clue and I could do a little stand up with Kyle no declined to talk about the clue. It's a clue. Okay, what happened in November in December? Was it something as simple as they were deployed during the holidays? Or did something really really bad? How But that triggered that veteran, ask these questions, okay? When you don't see someone in April and you don't see someone in January, but they're having those struggles certain times of the year, look into that. But I want to point towards the leaders do something. Don't be that leader that that stigmatizes and then you're you sit there and I don't want to pick on the San Antonio Police Department, but they've had a rash of suicides lately. Not. I'm not pointing fingers at their chief. But do something. Okay. For some reason, they're struggling and they don't feel like they can get help is my opinion. And I know I'm not the only one that opinions so I'll shut up now. But leaders, please, please, please take care of your soldiers take care your sailors and marines, your airmen?

Kyle Pursell: 55:47

Yeah, we're definitely going to spin off of that. I mean, that definitely, like I said, I mean, it comes into the, I have my, my own outlook on like the VA Health Care System in the way that Oh, where I'm not saying every instance I've had is a bad instance, or a bad situation where I've had to deal with XY and Z. But I feel like the mental health aspect of the VA and dealing with that side of the VA and what you have to do, I mean, you could go in there and be like, Hey, I'm in crisis, or I need to talk to somebody and they're like, alright, well, we can get you an appointment four weeks from now, you know, how does Tuesday sound? And it's like, okay, well, it's not even like that happened to you. Because I could, could happen to me. And then Jay could be thinking about, hey, I want to go get some help. But it's gonna take me a month to get an appoint, like, why would I go do that? If I'm just doing what I'm doing now? You know, so I feel like it's definitely what, and I have read some articles where they are auditing the VA and how long it is taking to get an appointment. And obviously, there's been times where people have come out or when where it's been months and years. It's definitely, but I definitely feel saying what Jay said the leaders and I, and it's sad to say, but everybody, close that, that cap on mental health, mental health, but then when someone ultimately does commit suicide, or something does really bad happen, everybody's shocked when, like you said, Jay, there's all these clues. There's all these clues, you just have to be able to open your eyes and not be ignorant, you know, I hate to use that term, but ignorance fact of what's really going on, like looking at the overall like you are in that position, whether you're a boss at a corporation or manager at the supermarket, or your whatever it is, you're in a position to make sure that your men are taken care of. And when it's like, you know, we're not professional, we see probably more than we see our families. You know, I see guys that work more than I see my son, you know, when we have that relationship. So when something's off, something's off. So if you're not, I definitely feel like it definitely takes a it falls on the leaders and obviously, but it also, like you said, it falls on the person like in the veterans listening, or whoever listens, like you got to, what I say is you got to stop caring about what everybody else thinks, because it's only you, and it's about you. And it's always going to be about you. Because Steve, you're not going to help me Jay, you're not going to help me, Katelyn, you're not going to help me. But you guys can give me the tools. But it's up to me to do the work myself. And I have to want to do that work. So it's definitely falls into that realm where you guys might all have something that I can help that helps me through a situation. But unless I sit there and say, hey, I want to be better today, tomorrow, the next day and healthy for my child or my family or being at work and being happy, then that's ultimately what's going to make or break you because no one's gonna do the work unless you do it. So

Steve Bisson: 58:32

I like that. Katelyn, what do you have to say?

Katelyn Dehey: 58:36

I think Kylie makes a good point about, like being ready to do the work, right? That's a super important part of of this therapy thing, right? Because otherwise, it's not really going to work if you're not ready to put in the time and the effort. But I do think like to change really change the stigma and it has to start at the top down like you guys said, like it has to just be thinking about the military as Yes, they are military service members. Yes, they are warriors. And they're human beings. And they not only have the stress of the what they do in the military, but they have lives outside of that, right. They have siblings, they have parents, they have kids of their own, they have spouses, and those things don't exist. In a microcosm outside it is it things exist at the same time. And so you have the stress of whatever's happening in the military or you're deployed and back home, somebody in your family gets sick with cancer or somebody dies or so like it's not just mental health, like mental health isn't just about like the trauma that happens in the military, but it's also about like, grief and loss from life and marital issues and things that just happen in life and so You're not exempt from those life things just because you're in the military. And so thinking about it really as, yes, absolutely. There's that military, cultural piece with trauma that is intense, but there is also your life outside of that right with other things that are involved in. So trying to get leaders to think about it in that way. And think about the mental health, being just as important as the rest of the physical health, and you want these people that are going out and doing these important missions to be as healthy as they can be, right? I don't know, it feels like that would be a good thing. To have, have those people be, you know, in the best healthy shape they can be. And that includes their mental health. And I think that's an important and important piece of

Steve Bisson: 1:00:48

it. No, touch base on a few things that everyone said here, let's start off with Well, first started with what you talked about. Getting out in the military, doesn't mean you have PTSD, I'm sick and tired of that automatic thought process, I have that regularly. And even guys from the military come to see me you're gonna give me PTSD. And like I don't know yet. And frankly, I don't care about diagnosis, you're here for help. Because you're having XYZ issue, I don't care about the diagnosis. So wanted to talk about that you've mentioned about being you know, our leadership, I think it's also colleagues and people around you. Because, you know, I just saw this on a graphic maybe a couple of weeks ago, in our 30s 40s and 50s, we spend more time at work than we do with our own families or friends are leisure. And so they're going to be the first ones are going to be able to look at it, whether it's our leaders, whether it's our colleagues, whatever, I think that that's important to remember. And I get again, Jay said, I bragged that I don't have any openings. But if I get a call from anyone who has a military background, I returned that phone call, probably within 24 hours. But I tell people, if you do it past 72 hours, you're wasting your time because you've lost them. So when you talk about the VA being backed up and all that, sometimes I'll use something and there's no other plugged in, I use this, sometimes I do give an hour, which is something that you know, you give an hour for military personnel. You can any therapists can do that. You can go check it out, if you want to give an hour.org I believe, but let make sure that you try to catch the military before they get to their appointment. Sometimes I'll say hey, I'll hold you for the next four weeks or three weeks or with the Bedford VA nine weeks. Sorry, I said. But at the end of the day, I think it's important to just be there. Even if it's just as a I'd rather be a stopgap and be helping in that way. Then thanking a veteran on November 11. And what I've learned today is I will never take Kyle for his service. That's just the bottom line for me. So thank you, Jay. Thank you, Kyle. And thank you, Katelyn. This was a great conversation. And I will never thank you Kyle. So I'm not even saying it. So thank you guys. Steve. Well, this concludes episode 74 of finding your way through therapy. Again, thank you to Jay ball. Thank you to Katelyn Dehey. But more importantly, thank you to Kyle Purcell. It was a great interview really enjoyed it. We talked about different things that I think that most people don't talk about. And to all of those who listened. I hope that you realize what veterans day may mean for a veteran. And for those who have served our country. Remember, there was a lot of good advice on there. And I'm hoping that you follow some of the stuff that Kyle J and Katelyn talk about episode 75 will be with Lisa mustard Lisa, someone who helped me get into doing podcasting. She I consulted with her when I started and someone I've listened to for about two years. So I'm looking forward to that interview and I hope you'll join me then. Please like, subscribe or follow this podcast on your favorite platform. A glowing review is always helpful. And as a reminder, this podcast is for information, educational, and entertainment purposes. If you're struggling with a mental health or substance abuse issue, please reach out to a professional counselor or therapist for consultation.