E.95: Let's Talk About Mindfulness, Relationship, Family, And Therapy

In this episode, Michele Lareau-Alves discusses her journey in therapy, from her own work on self, to her current work as a certified sex therapist. Over the years Michele  has cultivated an approach that reinforces the need for joy, pleasure and a sense of wellbeing in life; and where mindfulness and wellness are foundational. Her work as a relationship and sex therapist invites the many expressions of relationship, identity and sexuality into the process of finding healing and reconnection, while also identifying and shifting the cycles and narratives that keep us stuck and hurting.

Harrow’s Monkey Studies

The Wheel If Consent

The 3 minute Game

Transcript

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Intro: 0:02

Hi and welcome to finding your way through therapy. The goal of this podcast is to demystify therapy, what can happen in therapy and the wide array of conversations you can have in and about therapy. Through personal experiences, guests will talk about therapy, their experiences with it, and how psychology and therapy are present in many places in their lives. With lots of authenticity and a touch of humor. Here is your host, Steve Bisson.

Steve Bisson: 0:33

what do you guys think that's an awesome intro. Now, I don't even have to introduce myself anymore. So welcome to Episode 95, and the premiere episode of Season Eight, of finding your way through therapy. I'm so happy to have that intro. I'm so happy to be back. If you haven't listened to Episode 94, I would suggest you go and listen to it because it was with Brad Cohen. Brad is someone that I've known for many years, we talked about corrections, one of my biggest passions. After working in that system for a few years, I know how much help they need. And I truly enjoyed that interview. So please go back he comes off as very authentic and passionate, something like I can relate to. So hopefully you enjoyed that. But for episode 95 We will be interviewing a colleague of mine who works out of my office, her name is Michela ro else and I better be careful in how I pronounce her last row because that's the French way of saying it. I hope I did it right. Michelle is an lmhc. She's recently got a certification in a s e c t, which is working with couples and sexual issues. She's worked in community mental health for about 20 years where she started addressing the complex struggles of Children and Family and the social service system. This led her to her passion working with a core unit of family systems, the couples and the parents who can be instrumental in breaking the cycles of intergenerational trauma. I think that Michelle is a great guest. I think that she's been very helpful to me when I was doing consults someone I truly enjoy talking to on a regular basis happy to have her in my office. But here is the interview. Well, Hi, and welcome to the premiere episode of season eight. I'm so happy to have someone I've known for, I guess, over 10 years at this point. Not that we're dating ourselves. But it's someone that I truly appreciate someone I trust. And recently we she started going full time in private practice. And she just got a certification. I guess I don't know the exact word but we'll talk about it anyway. But it's an immense pleasure. I've known Michelle on so many rounds. I've known Michelle through my work with her at a we call social service agency. I've known her through the church I attended. I've known her on a personal level. And now I know her in her private practice level. So Michelle, welcome to finding your way through therapy.

Michele Lareau-Alves: 2:54

Thank you. Thank you so much, Steve for having me on. I've been in a waiting for this moment, this opportunity to be able to share kind of what this work is like for me and the interface of being in the office with you and knowing you from advocates. I think it's been probably 15 or so years. You're an advocates.

Steve Bisson: 3:13

When was that possible? I'm 27.

Michele Lareau-Alves: 3:16

Well, I'm only 30. So Okay. i Yeah, so it's just an honor to be able to continue this journey and talk about what I'm doing now. You know where I've been in again, you've you've known me for a long time. So I appreciate your interest in wanting to have me on your podcast.

Steve Bisson: 3:34

Well, let's be truthful here. People don't know. But I see Michelle, not super frequently, but frequently enough. And I was waiting for her to get done with a certificate. So that way I can have her and have that conversation because I really want to promote not only what she's going to talk about, I don't want to spoil it. I want people to listen. But I also think that it's something that I've always found that we need to talk about as a society. Personally, someone once asked me, Why are you so open about that? I think it's because I'm from Canada, and in particular Quebec is we don't use it as a taboo. But anyway, we'll get to that in a few minutes. The real first important part is to know a little more about yourself, Michelle. So I've described you a little bit but how about you describe yourself?

Michele Lareau-Alves: 4:16

Okay, wow, I'm a lot of things. So for the purposes of this, the theme of this podcast, I am a 20 years licensed mental health counselor and most recently certified sex therapist. I am a mom, a wife, a sister, a daughter, and I have a large network of very important peers and friends that make me who I am as well. So about me, I started out. I like when we had to do some of the intro information. I was like, I'm gonna write five sentences for Steve. And then I was like, this is a lot. It's like a whole page. But anyways, so what I'd like to share is that I did start out, way back when In high school, I actually knew by the time I was a junior in high school, that I wanted to become a therapist, I wanted to become a psychologist. So I made up my mind pretty early on. And we when we talk about family stuff in my background, we can talk a little bit more about probably why that happened. And then I went on to get a bachelor's degree in psychology, and I was told that there were very few jobs for people like me in the world of psychology, so don't even think about it unless you have a PhD, you know, and that was 1987. Where did you go for your bachelor's? UMass Amherst, I spent 10 years working in a field that actually taught me a tremendous amount about human behavior, but it was actually in under the guise of non human primates. And I worked at Harvard Medical School, a regional Primate Research Center over in Southborough, for a good 10 years, and I studied animal behavior, psychological well being and non human primates. I actually have some articles that I was published years ago in like, primates, journal and another one about psychological well being. But anyway, I spent a lot of time learning about what, what makes a good primate and we studied babies and mothers, we studied the dynamics in the social groups, and they were mostly macaques, long tail rhesus macaques, in captivity, bro born and bred in captivity. And we did a lot of study on their abnormal behaviors. And what you saw a lot of was some very self injurious behaviors, abnormal behaviors from animals that were not reared with their mothers. And they also not being raised in a social situation, a lot of times they were keeping the males and females in individual cages. And when they went to breed them, the males would beat the crap out of the females, because they didn't understand the social dynamics from their social group. So I had a lot of experience with that. I also had a lot of experience, which was, which was fascinating to me, because they seem to have a radar for it was a lot of the sexual behaviors in monkeys, that people may be at the zoo, you notice a couple of funny things, but there was some really interesting behaviors that I got an opportunity out in the outdoor facilities where they were kept in larger groups. I was able to witness that. And the woman that was running the psych department at UMass actually had originally and I did some work with her working with monkeys. She got the job for me over at the Primate Center. She was one of Harry Harlow students.

Steve Bisson: 7:30

Really? Yeah. From those research.

Michele Lareau-Alves: 7:33

Yes. Yeah. So you know, with the attachment, right, attachment came out of that as well, because we were watching babies, baby monkeys on a surrogate middle, cotton ramped mother. So I learned a tremendous amount about parenting and social structures and relationships, and distress, psychological well being abnormal behavior. So I did that for about 10 years. And then I went into grad school, I went to Lesley University, and I got my master's degree in counseling psychology, did a little bit of focus on counseling and spirituality. I consider myself a fairly spiritual person, you may know somewhat of my time at the Unitarian church that we both went to. And the meantime I was, I had my two kids were little my kids are like 26 and 2023. Now, so back then they were like seven and four, actually three, I got pregnant with my daughter while I was in grad school. So it was a really busy time. Then I went off to work at advocates and advocates landed me in the throes of community mental health. We were doing a contract with DCF. And doing family work around the folks that had had their kids taken, cases opened for 51 days. And the parents were, the goal was for them to get their kids either back or to get DCF out of their lives was to kind of remedy whatever was going on was happening, and an amazing amount of information to be learned about, again, that the intersectionality of all the things that happen that cause us to have disrupted or dysregulated childhoods and it comes from their parents having dysregulated disrupted disrupted childhoods, you know, we talk about attachment, talked about abuse, trauma, when it leads all the way into substance abuse and mental illness. So I learned a lot working in advocates, and it was pretty intense work. And then, after about 10 years, nine or 10 years, I transitioned over to another community based mental health clinic. Right down the street was less of a commute, less hours, but I sat at a desk all day, I still miss going out into the community. So I've done a tremendous amount of work on all ranges of mental health, mental illness. You know, I've really learned that the focus is on well being wellness, healing over time. I realized, for me getting to the root of these dysfunctional patterns that are seemed to be in a in primates and humans in societies is to really work with the the core unit and working with the couple, or the parents. I mean, even before they become parents, I've worked with lots of couples that had to make a decision whether or not they were actually going to spend time starting a family or even getting married or long term relationship. It's sometimes it's good to decide not to, because you've got your own work to do still and don't this is not a life decision. So I've really enjoyed evolving into primarily couples therapy. And as far as the sex therapy goes, when I was probably in my late teens, early 20s, and I'm probably dating myself, but Dr. Ruth was on television for the first time. And seeing someone on television talking about penises and vaginas was oh, no, don't

Steve Bisson: 10:58

please don't, please,

Michele Lareau-Alves: 11:01

it was like, oh, oh, that's awesome. And I know, we'll talk a little bit more about it. But I grew up in a very liberal household. So it was not like a horrible thing. We were all thought it was hilarious. And I was like, oh, I want to be able to talk about that with people. So I've always that little secret of aspiration to become Dr. Ruth. So I'm 57 years old, and I'm just beginning my next career. So this is a fantastic journey for me, and I'm learning more and more every day and living out my dreams.

Steve Bisson: 11:34

Well, the first thing that came to mind is that Dr. Ruth was on TV for the longest time so you got plenty of time to catch up to her. And the other thing you know Harlow study I'm actually going to put Harlow study in the show notes because I think it's important, a very good study if you if people are not familiar with it, it talks about cold mothers versus other stuff. And the other thing too, is what I was thinking about is the bonobo bonobo monkeys, and sexuality with them. So I was thinking about that. And it's always something, you know, I hear all these things, they have all these ideas, and I gotta keep myself in check around that. And finally, the other thing I want to mention is that we have so much we have another thing in common at 16. That's when I decided to be a therapist, though I think we're about the same age when we decide that so Another commonality that I didn't know until today that we had. The other thing I've never asked you, though, is have you ever been in therapy, because that's part of what finding your way through therapy is to just lift a little bit of that veil of what therapy truly is.

Michele Lareau-Alves: 12:36

Okay, this is big question. This is the question I've been waiting for.

Steve Bisson: 12:41

Yes, this is should I put like tumtum afterwards?

Michele Lareau-Alves: 12:45

Well, I'm hoping I and I'm like, I'm kidding when I say hope I answered correctly. Because you know, my answer is my answer. And it's my truth and my my journey. So yes, I have had some therapy. When I was 12. My parents got divorced, I was an only child until I was 12. They had my sister and they shouldn't have had that go on. But so, so what was and then they got divorced. They were both in therapy for a long time. And that's probably another reason why I wanted to go into therapy or wanted to be a psychologist because I was fascinated with the things that they were going to say I didn't know what they were talking about. But I knew that they were talking about their marriage and their relationship. And you know, my parents, you know, part of my problem is they over shared, I got sucked into the middle of things. Emotionally. My mother was emotionally dependent on me for many years. So they were in therapy, and I knew all about it. I didn't go to therapy until it was requirement in grad school. So I am probably and I don't know, I don't listen to all your podcasts or or poll all the therapists that I know. But a lot of them do are currently actively in therapy, and I am not. And sometimes I think about that. There's a little bit of like, oh, I shouldn't be right. I have thought over the years, is this a good time to go to therapy, maybe I need to talk to someone. My I want to call it reasoning. But my my path has been that I do a lot of writing to do a lot of reading. Over the years, I've done a lot of my own wellness and self care. I know what I need. Maybe 85% of the time I'm not claiming to know everything. But I do know myself and that has always been part of my work is to know myself and to explore those things that I need. And I also have a lot of people and I don't want to say that I've leaned on friends but I've had a lot of not a lot of handful of very close people that have been able to talk to things in life, but I could talk to my mother for many years about a lot of this stuff. And I guess what? What comes to mind for me now is how therapeutic that was because I was it was okay for me to talk about just about anything and everything. And the Select friends that I had that I could talk like that with it was like talking to a therapist. You know, I had one friend in particular that was very close. She unfortunately died of cancer a few years back. And she she, like, let me let me talk. She was actually she was very supportive while I was in grad school. But anyways, I know that I, there were times when I probably could have used more therapy. And I could always use some now and I kept sometimes I think, who would I like to do therapy with? Because I think it would be fascinating. Because I think I would learn a lot. But I also know that at this point, I have this like, this kind of bias, like, well, I'm the therapist, I should know. But I need to be able to trust somebody else. So that's the long story about my therapy experience.

Steve Bisson: 15:43

Okay, well, I think that that's, you know, you're not the only one, frankly, there's been a few people. And I think that it's all personal. And what I heard from what you're saying is that therapy is a very personal thing. And you gotta decide when you're ready, when you're not what you want to do. Obviously, I will be honest, I advocate for therapy for everyone. Not every week, obviously, for everyone. But you know, I have people come in every three months, every six months just to what they call their oil change. And I just want to always mention that therapy can always be beneficial. But I get where you're coming from. Because when I started, that's exactly how I felt, well, I'm a therapist, why would I have to go to therapy. And now I don't know how I would kind of survive without my therapist, not every week, obviously. But if I needed him every week, he's there for me. And so therapy is very personal. And what I what I mean by that, too, is that when you think about how we grew up, and how we we do things, we talked about, you know, the family dynamics that you talked about, and how it affects us as to what we decide to do for work. And I wonder if that had any influence in your life, because that's a good way to start thinking about that whole therapy and where you got to where you're at today?

Michele Lareau-Alves: 16:54

Absolutely. I became a therapist, because my mother is was she died last October. And that's a whole nother reason I should probably go to therapy. She was a trauma survivor. And you know, what I know now, what we didn't understand as well 3040 years ago, was that she really had a lot of trauma that was never dealt with. And when you talk about that attachment and reactive attachment, even like me, she's growing up with a alcoholic father. And so the story is, my grandmother had my mother and her two sisters that 1617 and 18. And this was back in the 40s, the 247 for the late 40s. And my grandmother had no choice but to quit school, get married. And her and her husband worked night jobs. They played hard, drank hard and fought hard. And they beat the shit out of each other in front of the three kids all the time. And they were poor. They were very poor. And my mother's an extended family. Her grandmother did her best to like mitigate some of this and support her but it was also a lot of taboo and a lot of hush hush and my grandmother was basically the black sheep of the family. From what I understood that my grandmother was a tragic person who she drank and smoked herself to death. And she ended up at having a stroke at 49 years old, but she lived for 15 years. So all in there, like I could just do 10 years of therapy around that. I mean, that was a traumatic part of our lives. And my mother is surviving that in her role is the caretaker for my grandmother. So as my mother got older and whatever relationship issues she had, whatever stress she had, it all trickled down to me being the you know, the caretaking the I was always the parental FIDE child. So, yes, I became a therapist because that's what I was raised to be. Not intentionally, but that's what that's you know, what I became I was the caretaker.

Steve Bisson: 19:09

And besides being the caretaker, I mean, you got to have some sort of passionate helping people besides that, and does that kind of like influence a little bit of what you've had you said you had you talked about talking to friends and all that in the past. Did that influence things?

Michele Lareau-Alves: 19:24

Yeah, no, I mean, I, I think to spirituality piece, I've never fully become a Buddhist but I've always followed along with Buddhist philosophy. My parents were both really eclectic. And they learning always learning about different religions. So that the idea of compassion for others compassion for all, I think that's that is kind of core the core of me is I I like people I enjoy people I want people to feel cared for. Right. Um, I think that that is an innate thing in me that was probably part of my purse. finality was a charming child.

Steve Bisson: 20:03

I mean, there's so many things I could say about that. Because, you know, we talked about generational trauma being passed on. And there's something to be said about what you've talked about playing a factor, talked about Buddhism. And as someone who practices Buddhism, I remember that, if you're practicing Buddhism, there's no such thing as a Buddhist. They're just practicing Buddhism, because they're principles. So Hate to break it to you, but you're probably practicing Buddhism anyway,

Michele Lareau-Alves: 20:27

I practice a lot of things. Right? I don't, I don't, I don't necessarily call them all one thing. But yeah, that's the whole concept,

Steve Bisson: 20:36

in my view of religion and spirituality is that if Muhammad and Abraham and Jesus and Buddha all came together today, even 2023, they probably all hang out together and chat, and talk about ideas and differences in ideas versus fighting about it. So for me spirituality at the basis is really something that we can unite upon, no matter what your inclination is. So I'm a big fan of the same type of spirituality you're talking about.

Michele Lareau-Alves: 21:04

I also identify as I don't want to say, and again, I have a hard time identifying it. So you know, that's the nice thing about Unitarian Universalism is, your whatever you come in the door with, and it's not always definable, but I also identify as a pagan or Wiccan. And again, that's the, really the sanctity of life of all life in nature, that we are all we're all connected, and, and we're all worthy, all things all life is sacred. So I bring a lot of that into my way of being in my philosophy and the way I approach the work I do. And I believe I consider this a calling, it was a calling for me. And I don't think there was anything else besides becoming a dancer. And I've listened I've listened to some of the podcasts like with Courtney, and I'm like, Oh, I could have been matched to I really would have, you know, Broadway or, or some kind of movement or dance therapist, but But you know, the spirituality kind of one out in the end,

Steve Bisson: 22:01

maybe you can one up Dr. Ruth and start doing that, too. I was thinking about what you just said, and we talked about a lot of spirituality and where you being a Universalist, Unitarian, really helps. And you know, one of the things that I always find interesting in our lives is to talk about mindfulness. I think that if we don't have mindfulness in our lives, whether we're being cautious about what we're talking about now, because it's easy for me to be distracted. And by being mindful and paying attention to you, I think that this is a day to day stuff. I think mindfulness sometimes gets this type of moment, but I don't think it's singularly dead. But I'd like you to hear tell me more about mindfulness, because I think that's an interesting topic that you've enjoyed talking about in the past.

Michele Lareau-Alves: 22:46

Yes, absolutely. So I, again, go back to my parents, you know, for all of the dysfunction that happened growing up, there was also a lot of very positive and meaningful influence in my life. My father was practicing Transcendental Meditation, right around the time that they were fighting in both therapy and getting divorced. And I remember him like laying down on the couch, and I'm like it, you're just taking a nap. And he's like, No, I'm actually meditating. And so I learned about Transcendental Meditation. When I went to grad school, I did the spirituality and counseling track and we did a year long course, where we had to practice all of these, these strategies. So So I learned about mindfulness there. I also again, it goes back to this. What was the course I took my writing course junior at UMass, my undergraduate was about consciousness, consciousness and religion. And we read all of like the Bhagavad Gita and Thomas Merton new seeds of contemplation, like all of that great stuff. And my father again, at the same time was, he was really into Carlos Castaneda, and he was like, we have a really nice pastel drawing of Amanita muscaria, like all of that spiritualism and all the way into like kind of the spiritual drug use world and things like that. So all of that kind of influenced me. And then when I hit grad school, and they're like, you have to practice this. You have to chant, you have to shuffle around the room, you and I was like, Oh, this is so hokey. This is like singing in church. It's so awkward. And so but I did it, I did it. And I'm like, Huh. And it, I felt it, whatever it was, I was like, There's something here and I need to follow this. So a few years later, I ended up signing up for the Mindfulness Based Stress Reduction course at the Center for mindfulness or UMass and that changed my life. I knew that mindfulness practice was, again something that was part of my journey, and part of who I am. And it's something you don't I don't think anybody's perfect at it. There's you know, I don't follow any gurus. I don't I don't I don't think and follow anybody online or guides me Of course, right? Course. Right? You are my guru, Steve. But I learned, I learned what it could do. And it was and I did the mindfulness based stress reduction on a critical point where I was really like shifting, you know, my kids are kind of growing up, and I was doing more intense work at the clinic, and it created a space. Mindfulness for me, creates that space for my own self, my own peace. And it also created a space for the work that I do. Because they needed to be able to compartmentalize so that I could be there for my kids and be there for my marriage and be there for my family, and also not crash and burn for my job. Doing the mindfulness based stuff really changed the way I cope with life. And I was the pivotal moment was when the at the end of the eight weeks you do an all day meditation, group meditation and 200 people show up for these things. Now they do them online, but they've been doing it for 25 plus years, 200 people show up, and they were all the new graduates and all the people from the past. And people go up at the end. And they kind of give testimonials. And I thought it was fascinating to hear people say I did this 25 years ago. And I promptly forgot about it. Never did never sat and meditated again. And then 10 years ago, something happened. And it came back to me. It's always there. And then their their practice blossom. So that's kind of I've been kind of weaving in and out there are times when I do it more. There are times when I'm like, Oh, I don't have time for that. But it's like exercise, you need to do it anyways. So mindfulness for me is just every day waking up, taking that moment to breathe and know where you are. That common thing that people talk about. Mental health is waking up knowing who you are and what you are meant to do. But I think mindfulness is also that waking up in being present and being aware of where you are and what you need to do next, or doing or do nothing, right. So a lot of it is mindful eating, mindful walking. And I think it creates, again, that space that allows a certain amount of flow, that I don't have to think about things so hard anymore, they just kind of come out. And maybe I say stupid things once in a while. But I feel like I have more of a focus and more of a flow. And I think mindfulness is has created that to some degree.

Steve Bisson: 27:34

And I agree. And I think that mindfulness is something that we can all practice. And you can do a mindful, walk through a common and take three hours to do it. Or you can do it for three minutes and walk faster afterwards. And it's still mindfulness. And I think that one of the things I like to demystify with a whole lot of people is mindfulness is not sitting in a quiet retreat for three weekends. It's what you make of it. And then you know, you never forget about it. Because mindfulness sometimes it's something I need to do when I parked my car after maybe some issues while I'm driving, or what have you. And learning to use that regularly. And I think that when you talk about singing and chanting, there's I think they've always said to myself, and this is a comment, the conversation I had and one of my clients, until I decided that the singing and the chanting was for me. It was a chore. When it decided it was for me, then pay it was fine. So that's when I heard you say about singing and chanting, not pointing fingers, any particular church, but having to sing certain things. I'd be like, I don't believe that I'm not singing Yeah. And being able to say no, this means something. I mean, they sing it. I think that that's very, very important to distinguish in the spiritual life anyway. Yeah.

Michele Lareau-Alves: 28:44

Yeah, I when I, I've also been practicing yoga for 30 years or so. And again, it's one of those things where you got to remember to go to the class, or you have to do it yourself. And I finally like, pulled out my yoga mat. And now it's like in the middle of the dining room, so they all remember to do it at home. But when I first learned about ohm, chanting, ohm, that was powerful. But it was after I had already learned so much other stuff. And I was like, Oh, now I know what this is.

Steve Bisson: 29:14

So what if I told you that maybe some people my audience don't know what Alma means? Can you explain it a little bit?

Michele Lareau-Alves: 29:20

Yeah, as best I can. It's ohm. It's a three syllable sound that comes from I believe Sanskrit. What I was taught was it is the sound that the universe makes. And at the end of your practice, like other chants, there's all kinds of different ways of making sound and experiencing that audio audible vibrational tone that comes from you and expresses itself outward. You just you chant ohm and it has has a resonance that, that you feel very deeply. And the idea when I, when somebody said to me, it's the sound that the universe makes absolutely perfect. That that did it for me. It's commonly practiced in yoga. So

Steve Bisson: 30:16

I think it's practice in religion too. And I particularly what I've used, and I think your explanation was wonderful. I also talked about it as those three sounds are coming. For most people, they're not hard, and being able to go home. And just doing that regularly, you almost feel quieter, even if you do it, like twice. So I like your explanation, though.

Michele Lareau-Alves: 30:43

Yeah, thank you. Yeah, any practice. And this is something that, you know, we, we transition to some of the work that I do, any practice that gets you back in your body that gets you grounded, is helpful, and necessary.

Steve Bisson: 31:01

And I think that's a great transition, as we said, because when we think about sex, and for me personally, I think that people sometimes get into sex and they don't even feel their own body and during sex. I don't want to be the expert here. Obviously, that's you. Can you tell me more about how like people need like maybe perhaps what can help them feel more and be more present in their even their sex sex lives.

Michele Lareau-Alves: 31:26

Sex is so complicated. Sex is such an important part of our humaneness, of our primate nearness, of our social structure of our spiritual experience, or bodily experience. And we and culturally, we're going to touch upon that intersectionality a little bit. All these things intersect to create this idea of what sex is, what it's supposed to be, what we, our bodies say it is for us. And then what our parents say what our friends say what the porn industry says what the, the anti porn industry says, like all of these messages. And we have such limit I find from people I've spoken to, and my understanding of the experience, probably from my own personal experiences and some degree, we have these notions about what sex is for us. And it's like this little narrow vision. So often, we are detached from our body from our physical experience, because we're rushing from this and rushing from that we're rushing through sex, we're rushing through relationships, it takes so much effort and so much energy, to be able to feel comfort. And we again, we're taking all the baggage from the way we were raised, and all this information, maybe trauma, sexual trauma, all kinds of things that happen to us that really create this rigid space. And there's just so much taboo around it. And I so much disconnection and I don't know if it's just our culture, or lots of cultures, so much disconnection from our bodies, that sex is problematic for a lot of people 100%

Steve Bisson: 33:19

I think that there's a couple of things that I think culturally, again, by limitation is two countries. But I don't remember a time where it was too taboo to talk to my friends about sex, maybe with my parents, it was but not necessarily with my friends and stuff like that. In American culture, I think that even as a therapist, sex is part of treatment. And I'm not an expert by any stretch, but I do talk about sex with my clients, because I think it's important. And I can even see my clients struggle to talk to me about it. Like I've just like, like, I've like, did something wrong, and I'm like, why is sex so wrong? In your mind? Mind? So what I really thought that was important as you you're talking about, we have a problem in our culture about what sex is. If I asked you forget about society for a second, what is sex?

Michele Lareau-Alves: 34:09

Sex is the embodiment of an I'm hoping I'm getting this right. But this is this is how I understand it. The embodiment of our experience of energy, in connection in pleasure, and joy. Sex is something that comes from within us, right? It's in our brains, it's in our bodies. It's in our sensory system, our experience of the external in the internal world and the interpersonal. So sex is, is what we do for pleasure. And I guess some people would argue that it's also appropriation. That's kind of like becomes a bodily function. because sex is so much more than procreation. And I don't I don't believe that that, you know, maybe there's some conservative fundamentalist values that say that, that we have sex just so that we can have babies. I don't believe that I believe that sex is actually an innate drive in energy that we are all in. It doesn't mean one thing or the only these two things. It is a individual experience,

Steve Bisson: 35:28

individual experience. I think that I go back to what you said in regards to sex and being taboo and only for procreation. Again, I'm going to make an overly general statement here and I get it. I don't know many 50 year old women that are still quote fertile. And that does that mean that they can't have sex? I know men who get vasectomies, that means they're not procreating. So should they should not have sex? I think it's just absolutely absurd to take those things. Do you think it's an influence from a you talked about religion? Is there other sociological aspects that are really pushing this taboo of sex?

Michele Lareau-Alves: 36:09

I mean, it's so insidious, it comes from say, comes from the puritanical in the in the religion and, okay, I'm gonna say the patriarchy. Yeah, the patriarchy also has fashioned a world of and again, that comes from a religious foundation to that women are really kind of just here for men in our bodies, and our pleasure are only reserved for certain kinds of relationships. We all know it's not true. Right? We all know that. When you get older, you don't stop wanting sex. But there are lots of women I encountered that. They like, Well, I never liked it to begin with. And I'm glad that it's over. I'm glad that I don't have to, like I have a good reason why all because, you know, oh, it hurts or what? You know. So there's, there's, there's something insidious in us that we don't, we don't seem to like sex all that much the way we have it. And it's easy to say, well, you know, if I haven't once a month or once a year, that's okay. Because I think that our definition of sex is pretty narrow to. Okay,

Steve Bisson: 37:28

can you before we go on there? Because I want to have what do you mean by that? But I also think that for me, I'm working in this field long enough, you know, when I talked to women in their late 30s, early 40s, and they're like, I've never had an orgasm. And I'm like, You're kidding, right? Like, you're never masturbated or used a toy or even get it off with something like whatever. And they look at me, like I just said to do sinful things. So I just wanted to put that in there. Yeah, but how do we d narrow the definition of sex, I don't even know if that's a word. But hey, I'm French. So whatever.

Michele Lareau-Alves: 38:04

So uh, you know, and I one thing that I've learned, and you know, that's the great thing about having done the training with them. As a sect, American Association of sex Educators, Counselors, and Therapists, under which I am certified. And also, I have a certificate in holistic sex therapy from the Institute for sex education and enlightenment. And that was an 1818 to 24 month program that I did. Everything that I've learned kind of expanded my understanding to be so inclusive, because you know what? It's not about the orgasms. It shouldn't have to be about the orgasms, if you are curious about in seeking and wanting to figure out what your body needs is what pleasure in an orgasm is something that you really would like to figure out. Does my body do that, then that's important. But there are people out there that like, I don't need to have an orgasm. Orgasms don't mean anything. To me. That sounds like too much trouble. That's okay, too. Right. All right. I know, I used to believe like, I like the little problem. When I was with my peers. When I was younger, we all had our kids, and we talk about sex. And I'd say something like, oh, and orgasm, and the like. And they would just be really uncomfortable with it. And I realized at some point, I didn't want to shame anybody that wasn't having the same kind of orgasms that I was having. Because everybody's different. Not everybody has them. Right. And we know, conventionally now, I think hopefully everybody realizes that. vaginal orgasms are also not the standard. And for a long time, people believe that and so I think I think we've kind of gotten past that. It's like okay, clitoral orgasms are the thing, and that's okay, and we can find that but there's other places that I can have orgasms, right. There's other things. So I think a lot of it is education and experience. In our definition, because I again, I think it's it's individual, what gives us pleasure. I mean, it might just be, you know, I really like my toes rubbed. Right? And that's okay. So we don't we don't judge people's idea of pleasure. But if they feel as though they need to learn more, that's, that's one of the things I'm here for. So,

Steve Bisson: 40:22

obviously, the education is needed for that. So when you talk about sex therapy, what's Why is that so important for couples to have? I mean, why do Why would, why would I need sex therapy? I know how to get off What the hell's the problem?

Michele Lareau-Alves: 40:38

Well, and that's it, that's the thing is not everybody thinks that they have a need for sexual conversations. Not everybody does. Some people have great sex, or they're happy with whatever sex they have. And that's fine. So it starts with a couple, like, you know, I now that my tag is out there that I'm a sex therapist, I'm getting more calls just for in that for that purpose. But even with that, when somebody comes in as a couple, they're like, well, I need to figure out my sex life. We need to fix this, we're not doing this, we're not having enough sex. It's like, whoa, whoa, wait a minute, what else is going on? Because if things aren't going good in the bedroom, then there might be some other things that are going on in your waking hours or whatever. And then the other happens to is couples come in and they're like, I just need better this and I he needs to do this and and then talk a little bit. You're like, well, how's your sex life? One? It's awful. Okay, so is that something that you are interested in working on? Because sometimes I think it's Esther Perel has his post this, and I'm not sure don't quote me necessarily on it. But sometimes listening, don't worry, hey, I know, buddy. Sometimes working on the intimacy, in not just sex, but intimacy and affection in touch, and quality time, you know, that in and of itself can start to soften up some of the other stuff that's going on. So sometimes addressing our sexual needs, and our intimacy needs, can help feel better about the relationship needs, what I really need is to feel connected to you. And when we finally got to have sex, I feel so much better about you. Because this is kind of this pent up energy and this need that of just to be close and to be physical, and perhaps I needed to have an orgasm, and I needed, I needed that release in that connection. And now I'm not walking around feeling so angry at you. Now what maybe I can talk to you. So sometimes that's the process. And some couples are having an awful, awful, awful time with each other, and having great sex. So there is no one way. And it's kind of a it unfolds as people come in, and I'm the one that asks. Excellent.

Steve Bisson: 42:59

You mean, it's just not heterosexual sex? Wow, that's just surprising. I'm joking. For those who can't see the video that being sarcastic here. But you know, the one thing that that I really liked is you talked about intimacy, which I think is so key to any type of relationship. You don't have to be in a sexual or loving relationship in that way to have intimacy. How do you define intimacy?

Michele Lareau-Alves: 43:27

Intimacy is feeling close, it's feeling connected, it's feeling, you know, seen and heard, I would even say before birth, I mean, we are intimately connected to our mother in the womb. And, you know, we it's that that warmth, that heartbeat, that sensation, that flood of chemicals, the oxytocin, right, that we need, as human primates, we need that to develop our sense of safety, our sense of words that, you know, I'm always taking new trainings and learning new things. And it's fascinating. I love the interpersonal neurobiology, and just did a whole training on the vagal vehicles polyvagal system, right? We need to know what's okay. And intimate connection, whether it's through touch or seeing somebody or knowing the facial expressions, or feeling the warmth, feeling the pressure, all of that works on our nervous system. And that's what helps us feel safe. So being able to hug being able to even facial expressions, I understand what you're feeling and thinking and I feel safe, and I feel connected to you because I can see that your face is open and receptive and and makes me feel okay with myself. So intimacy is all of that, that you take care of yourself.

Steve Bisson: 44:55

I'm hiding behind the mic that

Michele Lareau-Alves: 44:57

you take care of yourself in in you feel cared for by others. And it's it can take the take the shape of we sit on the couch, and we hold hands, we pat each other on the back. You know, we can laugh together, intimacy is a lot of things.

Steve Bisson: 45:16

And I think that you brought up two things that I'd like you if you can to describe because I got to the audience because I need to assume that people may not know these words. So you mentioned oxytocin first. So let's How can you define oxytocin? What does that mean? That's the

Michele Lareau-Alves: 45:31

they call it the love hormone. And it's also the thing when I first learned about oxytocin when I was breastfeeding my kids. Oxytocin is that thing that the hormone that releases when you start breastfeeding, and you go, and you feel really good, and you feel really connected? Many people I'm sure other people have different experiences. But that's, that's the purpose of that, that hormone. And when so in these other approaches to some couples work, some somatic experiences a couple work, couples work is a six second kiss, releases oxytocin, a hug releases oxytocin. So it's that hormone that is necessary for us to feel safe, to feel like it's okay to not be worried about things were okay right now,

Steve Bisson: 46:21

I just want to make sure because I don't want people to just associate oxytocin to sex. Or there's a lot of oxytocin that come from that. The other thing that I really I have, I'm learning about this, but I don't know a whole lot about it. But you thought about the polyvagal system and the vagal nerves? Can you explain a little bit about that, because that's something that's fairly new to me. So I'm still learning.

Michele Lareau-Alves: 46:41

It's, it's fascinating. And it's really, you know, when I took the training recently, and I need to do more on it, because it's really just an expansive system. And it's again, it's about interpersonal neurobiology and understanding how, how the messages from the environment from our interactions with people are constantly giving us feedback in our brains and our bodies. So the polyvagal, the vagus nerve is I think the polyvagal just refers to the it's all over the all over your body, multiple branches. So it's a cranial nerve that goes all through your body, the along the back, you know, the limbs, and through your digestive area, all of the major organs have connection to the vagal nerves. And it's part of the nervous system is the sympathetic and the parasympathetic nervous system. And what we've learned about it is, the sympathetic nervous system is the one that says, Oh, hurry up danger, watch out, you know, stress response might need to breathe heavier, or I need to be more alert, my hearing, my senses are on alert for danger. And then that's where we get our stress response as well. And there are lots of things that might signal danger to you, that might not signal danger to me because of your experience. Right? So people who are trauma, high alert, hyper vigilant, are going to be more sensitive to that stuff. And the parasympathetic nervous system is the one that, oh, wait a minute, it's okay. I can calm down now. So that's the, that's the distressing response. And that's where we learn to read. And we regulate, let our heart rate come down. chemical changes in our brain that help us relax after the dangerous past. So that's, that's what I understand about the polyvagal. And it's got a primitive part of the brain, like some of those nerves are older in the in the brain system, the nervous system, and some of them are newer, more newly developed, and they look at other species that have those same patterns of nerves, in that in the back nerves are more primitive, and then the more of the protective response. And the front nerves are the ones that are more likely to receive the facial, right communication, body language, and depending on you know, how you're experiencing the getting an upset stomach getting nervous stomach King, getting diarrhea, irritable bowel, that's part of the vagal nervous system that is responding to stress.

Steve Bisson: 49:18

I think that the extreme of the polyvagal system is when you have a panic attack. I think that that's a lot of it. And the other thing that I wanted to share with everyone is that one of the easiest way to touch your vagal system is to go within inside of your ear don't pull like you want to tear your ear off, but you can actually calm yourself by putting your finger in your ear here. And it's one of the most reachable vagal system. So just wanted to throw that out. Now they know everything but yeah, no, that's a good one. I think it was one of the things that I also thought about is we talk about sex. I think that the other part when you talk about some people struggling is consent. And I think that consent comes up in different places, but I think particularly with Sex is very important. How do you describe consent to people so they can understand a little more about

Michele Lareau-Alves: 50:06

consent has become hopefully, more integrated into sex education when you can get it right. Consent in relationships is really about communication. And it's about knowing, it's about knowing yourself, thinking, Hmm, what do I want? What do I need? What I don't want? What do I really, really want to stay away from? Knowing yourself being prepared and knowing when you come into that opportunity to be in relationship with somebody that you're having a conversation about? What's okay, what's not okay. And what do I know about me? And what do I want to know about you? And what do we know about each other? Even in long term relationships, marriages, there's, I think consent falls away, becomes assumption. Well, I thought you just always liked it like that. And when I go like this, you always like that. So I assumed that that's what we wanted to do. Right. And that's a whole nother realm, like, you know, again, we stopped talking about sex, we stopped thinking about what our bodies really want. And we just kind of give into these patterns. And then after a while, wheeling in that kind of stuff. So I don't really want to do it anymore. Because we're not even remembering that it's still important to be like, Do you like it? When I do that? You know, I'd like to do this. So I'm going to reference the wheel of consent. And I need to do more training on this. But I love this. This is Betty Martin, and please look up her website.

Steve Bisson: 51:35

I'll attach it to the show notes. Yeah, Betty Martin,

Michele Lareau-Alves: 51:38

she's finally got a web page. And she's got some great YouTube videos. And it's about this, this one that I really like, and I've suggested it to couples, and I need to work with them more on like, did you do it that way? How did it go? Because we're doing all this stuff, a lot of it on Zoom. And, folks, I don't know what they're doing when they go home. And half the time. They don't do their homework. But Betty Martin has this whole thing called the three minute game. And it's it's practicing consent, really. And then there's the wheel of consent, and it's about giving and receiving, and to be the giver and to be the receiver. And then there's all these other things I'd have to have in front of me to remember it. But it's complex, right? It's a complex dynamic of inter personal again, knowing yourself, knowing what you're asking for, and knowing what your partner's asking for and how do you feel about that? Right. So consent is, consent is definitely good. It's not like, Oh, is it okay, you know, but I think people need to be aware that we need to talk. We don't just do it, right, need to talk about it. And it's hard to talk about. But if somebody wants said, If you can't talk about it, you shouldn't be doing it. Right. Which, you know,

Steve Bisson: 52:55

I practice people on consent in outside of sex, and consenting to activities consenting to people coming over and stuff like that, talking about the importance of consent there, so that it can eventually get into their personal life, because there's still some people in the religious realm that says, Well, I'm married, I'm the possession of that person, they can do whatever they want. That's not consent. That's just wrong. So I definitely talked to a lot of people with that. The other thing that came to mind for me as we wrap up here, because I realized we've been doing this for about an hour already. The word love, you know, for me personally, again, I like to talk about where I grew up. In French, there's no word for like, there's only a word for love. And for me, even today, I still like you know, you know, I love you, Michelle, but I'm not with people, like, you know where I'm coming from. And there's some people like, What do you mean? Why is it so hard for people to understand that love does not always equate to intimacy, sexuality or what have you?

Michele Lareau-Alves: 53:54

I think it's because we live in a still repressive, puritanical power, differential based society. And love means sex, but it doesn't know. Right? Even within families like what is love me, well, you know, when it's conditional, or it's not conditional, or is it this or, you know, I think people struggle with it. I get I think, just like intimacy, love is a feeling that emanates from within us and something that we get as an energy from others. And it's, it's, you know, I feel like love is a positivity. Love is an inclusion love isn't an acceptance of, I accept you for who you are. And I bring my whole self to me, you and my authenticity. Right? Now, we have boundaries, right? We do have some spaces that we need to make sure that I don't want to talk about this with you because you know, our relationship is more casual than that. But at the same time, I don't I'm not judging you for it. I'm allowing you in as much as I can. and you allow me in, and I the appreciation, and the exchange of that energy, I think is love. And I grew up feeling like, ooh, love is Ooh, and you know, and physical touch is also kind of a like, weird thing. Right? Who was it that I hugged? There was a guy that one of my social justice groups that and we had a meeting and, and he after the meeting he wanted and he came up to me, and he's this big guy. And I And I'm, like, stuck my hand out. And he's like, How about a hug? And I was like, Yeah, okay. Because I still have, like, ingrained in me that, you know, he's a stranger kind of, I've only met him twice. But I understood why the hug was important. And I understand the feeling of love and connection to other human beings that share my, my values and my energy that I want to stay connected to. So that's how I interpret it. And you know, I think though, it does get mixed up in that taboo that you know, growing up, you had to go hug uncle blah, blah, blah, and you're like, you, creepy. So there's this, there's a boundary thing there too, as far as that touch. And I think love gets wrapped up into that, right? I only serve love for the people that I want to be intimate with.

Steve Bisson: 56:20

Well, love and hugs. And all that, to me is all a continuum. I hug my kids differently than I hug you then I hug my girlfriend, I love you differently. No, I love my kids, or my girlfriend, or even clients or whatever. I think that for me, when you see it on a continuum, it's a lot different. And I think that that's what you're saying. And I agree wholeheartedly.

Michele Lareau-Alves: 56:40

Yeah, everything's on a continuum. We put everything in black boxes and line them up. And that's not the way anything is.

Steve Bisson: 56:49

I think that that's because it makes it easier for us. And unfortunately, sometimes when it's something like that, it doesn't need to be easy. It just has to be accepting. So Well, Michelle, I can't tell you enough that I thank you. I really appreciate so if someone wants to find you and reach out to you, how did they reach out to you?

Michele Lareau-Alves: 57:10

Psychology Today is my primary mode and under Michela Royales, and under the Hollister office. So that's one way they'll find me. But yeah, generally, you know, word of mouth to I mean, I really appreciate connection connections and collaborations throughout the field. And I like meeting the people that want to meet me, or you know, are the people that know me, referring somebody to me. So I think that that is that makes for a more positive experience for everybody. Because we, you'll talk to somebody like I think that there'll be a good fit for you. Right? And I like that. But Psychology Today is really the best place right now. Well,

Steve Bisson: 57:54

I hope that people go to Psychology Today and find you, Michelle, I've always enjoyed our relationship all those years from social services to today. But I can't thank you enough for this conversation. I hope people really enjoyed because I think we talked about very important subjects. And I just want to say thank you,

Michele Lareau-Alves: 58:11

thank you. It was an absolute pleasure to be able to be on and share and talk and all these topics I think are just really great. And I love talking about them. And I love talking to you, Steve. It's always a pleasure.

Steve Bisson: 58:23

Thank you, Michelle. All right, thank you. Well, this concludes episode 95 of finding your way through therapy. Michelle, thank you so much. It was a great interview. I hope you guys enjoy it as much as I did. But episode 96 will be about a little bit of an update on my special episode on the flight I took from LA to Boston a couple of months ago. And I hope you guys tune in to listen to that because we're also going to talk about how season eight is going to be including my 100 episodes.

Intro: 58:52

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