#100.1 Crisis Work And Dance Therapy Collide For This Special 100th Episode

In this first episode of the week of my 100th episode, Bill Dwinnells and Courtney Romanowski meet for the first time, despite knowing of each other. They discuss how they have been in the field, how they also feel some classes are missing from the curriculum at masters level program. They also discuss enjoying their experience on the podcast, and how they may not have listened to criss work or expressive/dance therapy if this podcast did not exist.

Transcript

Intro: 0:02

Hi and welcome to finding your way through therapy. The goal of this podcast is to demystify therapy, what can happen in therapy and the wide array of conversations you can have in and about therapy. Through personal experiences, guests will talk about therapy, their experiences with it, and how psychology and therapy are present in many places in their lives. With lots of authenticity and a touch of humor. Here is your host, Steve Bisson.

Steve Bisson: 0:34

Thank you, and welcome to be 100 Episode week of celebration. Yes, it is something of a celebration for me because 100 episodes, this is quite an accomplishment. But I've also had some wonderful guests on it goes back to Episode 99 was our cloud was on please go back and listen to that. But this week, in particular, in the next few episodes, you're gonna get people who you've heard before, and you haven't listened to them before, go back and listen to their interviews. They either came onto my show at least twice, or they were someone who I've had a personal connection with, or I really connected with them during the interview. But ultimately, it's just a great honor and pleasure to have them back on. I think that Courtney romanovski has been on this will be her third appearance, I believe, and build one house has been on three times. So this will be his fourth appearance. I know both of them very personally, Courtney works with me directly next to me in my office, build windows and I are working on a few projects together very important projects that and Bill is just an amazing guy. So Bill and Courtney, I don't think have really interacted before. So I wanted to do that for my 100th episode. Yes, it's self serving. Yes, it's also kind of like a fun thing to do and see how it goes. So I honestly don't know. But knowing these two great people, it's gonna go well. So here is the interview. Well, Hi, and welcome to the first episode of my self. I don't know how to make myself happy for my 100th episode. And I decided to do so because I wanted to have fun with people who have been on more than once on my podcast, and I have two people who have been on Bill has been on three times. And Courtney has been on twice and she'll be on again soon. But also wanted to share a little bit because this I want to make it also personal bill is someone who taught me a whole lot you guys probably heard him on other podcasts with me. But when I started with the crisis team, I was a bushy tailed, bright eyed 23 year old like I'm gonna save the world. And Bill was the realest, sitting in a corner who's worked on an ambulance before. And he was very helpful with that. But he also really taught me how to deal with people. And I really appreciated that from his perspective. And that's why I wanted to have him on. He's a good friend of mine. And then another good friend of mine, Courtney, I mean, Courtney, we've known each other for about eight to 10 years. And the stuff that we're going to talk about probably some movement therapy, expressive therapy and the great stuff that you do. But what you really taught me is, at the end of the day, when we started in group, we did it at a company where we were doing group for a partial hospital slash IOP, whatever they're calling it this week, like you taught me how to deal with groups, because I've never been a huge fan of groups. And you were so poised and you knew how to change the subject and try to keep people on subject, frankly, and you contributed so much and just your friendship has just been immensely important for me. And I wanted to make sure I said that on air. So now that I've buttered you all up, how about you introduce yourself? Let's start off with Courtney. Yeah, hi,

Courtney Romanowski: 3:46

my name is Courtney romanovski licensed mental health counselor registered dance movement therapist I work in while I work virtually and also in Halston in the same office as Steve right outside of Boston, working with adults mood anxiety, life changes, just stuff that comes up. Doing like I said, Talk therapy but also breath work, body awareness, getting out of the brain and into more of the heart and body and soul of what's going on in therapy and this is where I'm supposed to praise you and tell you that you're the best is that

Steve Bisson: 4:24

you can say whatever you want, I'm fine with it. I also I would like would turn you back to the script number one, number two, I can give you my banking routing number and we can figure out something

Courtney Romanowski: 4:37

I do want to say and I have tried to find I can sneak it in the other times I've been on your your podcasts with you But you bring up the influence I somehow had on you as being a bright eyed bushy tailed 20 or 30 whatever year olds when we met and you are my supervisor, you have really been I think I am a therapist I am today because of You really because of just how real you are, and that that human approach of just meeting people where they're at as who you are, as a human being, I think I had this idea in my head that I had an act and be a certain way as a therapist, and it's just so so comforting to know that I can be myself and still be effective. And so thank you for showing me the way and probably wait, you didn't realize you were doing well, that makes

Steve Bisson: 5:27

me very touched by what you're saying. I do actually appreciate that. And please don't go check out the YouTube channel, as I've think I'm blushing right now. So, so that we stopped doing that. Let's go to Bill and Bill, how about you introduce yourself.

Bill Dwinnells: 5:41

My name is Bill wells, also an lmhc, licensed mental health counselor, I work primarily in virtual private practice. So I would on the Ethernet, you can find me build when else.com. I also have a part time software company that does software for emergency service programs. And you should be able to find that at five away tech.com. And in addition to that, I'm still in crisis work. So I'm still a director of one of the local crisis teams. And I would say, I really do kind of want to piggyback on corny statements about Steve. But at first, I was thinking of giving a rebuttal to it. But the truth of the matter is, Steve has really inspired me as well, too, because I can assure you, I probably would not be in private practice at all, if it weren't for Steve, Steve's the one who brought me to private practice, mostly kicking and screaming the entire way to quite honestly, I never really thought I could do it. Until he showed me that I didn't, you know, kind of like what you said, Courtney, I don't have to go and be Carl Rogers, I don't have to go and be Sigmund Freud I can be built. That's sufficient. So you know, yes, I would, I would like to thank Steve also for showing me that I can be the kind of therapist that I am, as opposed to trying to be a poser. Somebody else

Steve Bisson: 7:09

the check will be in the mail, I will just write it up later on. But thank you for that. I do believe that you're great clinicians, both of you, I really worked with you guys before. And I obviously, whether it's private practice or other projects, we've definitely worked together, we people have heard our chemistry on the podcast for both of us. But all three of us, I should say. And ultimately, it's just because you bring different things to the table. And one of the things that therapy has to become and I think is has become in the last few years is that stopped bringing CBT to the table, or stop bringing behavioral to nothing against those things. Bring that plus yourself. Never just bring one one of them. I'm a CBT. I've got CBT up the wazoo since age 16. But I'm also a human being. So that's what I absolutely like love. I have my private practice that straight to the point therapy and I have a few people who you've been in my office before Bill Courtney are there now. I honestly love everyone who's been there because they're real. And if they weren't real people like they were just trying to pretend whatever the hell they want to try to pretend they wouldn't be working with me because that's never going to be my goal. So yeah, thank you for the praise and the checks in the mail. Just it's post dated to 2024. So but one of the things I wanted to ask you guys is that we all went to school, I went to assumption University. Courtney, you went to Wellesley. And Bill, you went to Cambridge college. And I look at our experience that we got from there. And I know what for me, I've always thought about Gee, there's got to be a course that we can do in blank just to help people who go into their master's program and want to complete it. So the first question I want to ask you a little frilly question is, if we could add one Master's class program, what would it be for you guys? And why do you think that's so important? And you can whoever wants to jump in?

Courtney Romanowski: 9:15

Well, I'll speak my program was mainly a dance therapy. Not as much on the counseling end, even though my degree is in dance therapy and mental health counseling. So I really had no idea what I was getting into when I jumped out into the real world. As far as what being a therapist looks like, yet we had internships, but again, those were definitely routed in being a dance therapist at a clinic or hospital or whatever, which isn't necessarily how one gets hired as soon as they graduate. I was thrown into where we work together, Steve doing individual outreach, and I really don't think I had any He, right to deuce. I can, I can settle. I'm settled with it now. But like. So I think a class on like, these are the different levels of care, these are the different areas that you could end up working with. This is what it could look like versus this is what we hope your career as a day of therapists will eventually lead you. So just a real world class,

Bill Dwinnells: 10:27

whatever.

Steve Bisson: 10:30

I like that. I think that we don't learn all those things. I had all that knowledge, because I worked on a crisis team, and triage. But when I remember sitting, when people would talk about we, I'd say something like, well, maybe partial hospitalization would be better than just put him in the hospital. And I would get these blank stares from most of the people in my class, not because they're not good people. They were very smart. They just didn't know what the hell that was because we don't learn those things in schools typically. So I agree with you. What about you, Bill? What do you think we should teach?

Bill Dwinnells: 11:02

This is going to sound weird, but I think there needs to be a couple of business classes. There's a good number of people that go to grad school to become therapists. And their goal is to have their own private practice. You know, at some point, maybe not right away, but but at some point. And my school anyways, was very good about teaching the counseling end of it. But there was no discussion on how do you get paneled with an insurance company? What is this liability insurance that you speak of? How much do I need? Where do I get it? Who's reputable? Things like that? I think we're not really included and made us all very ill prepared to go out and try to do our own businesses, because that's essentially what it is not to mention, how do you as a clinician get comfortable with calling the client up and saying, You haven't paid your bill? Yet, that's very different for a therapist. But yet, it's a skill we need to have if we're going to go into private therapy, because we are a professional service like anyone else, we need to get paid. That also I mean, I would say that was one of it. And of course, everybody knows that, you know, my big thing is there should be more crisis related classes. grad school, they usually they kind of my experience has been they touch upon things like what to do with a suicidal homicidal, psychotic patient. But they seem to gloss over that real fast. And I've seen new people coming out of school that try to give very textbooks answers, and they're not as helpful. I'm like you said, what? But so those are the two classes, I would think that they would really need business classes and more how to handle crises.

Steve Bisson: 12:52

And I think we talked about it in a previous episode, Bill, I think it's also thinking that if you go to the crisis team, whether it's the hospital or in the community, we don't walk around with ones and going, your fixed. I think that that's the other misnomer about crisis work. It's called the crisis team. They're going to fix them with one. No, that's not how it works. I'm going to add my class. And it's something that I we talked about earlier, you, you know, I appreciate I want to give credit where credit is due. And it's her name is Beth and Schacht. She was my first supervisor when I did my first internship. And when she observed me through the mirror of my first session, she knew me or husband knew me because she, they were working with the crisis team. She told me and I'll always remember I, she asked me, How do you think you did? And I gave her to oh, I asked all the questions. I did this, I did that. She told me probably nicer than I recall. But something like Where the hell were you in that room? In other words, why were you just reading the stuff? And why weren't you being a person? And I always give Beth and Shaq that credit, because she's the one within the next session, I was already putting my personality in there. And I think that there's got to be something we can do to graduate students to not be the stiff, repeating reading questions type of person, so that you can do I have a personality? Yes. Do I take my personality and take over the session? Absolutely not. And there's got to be something that we can teach people so that you can be yourself and also be professional. So for me it would be the class because we lose ourselves sometimes with currently Are you suicidal? Do you have a history of suicide? Like they drive me nuts people who do. And I know you've seen them bill and the crisis team especially?

Bill Dwinnells: 14:42

Well, it's the question is, are you trying to get through a checklist? Are you trying to relate to the person across from you? I promise they're going to be able to tell the difference. And you're going to have a better experience. They're going to have a better experience. You're all going to have a better outcome. If you're able to relate to the person as opposed to just filling out a form that moves things along some way, there needs to be a benefit.

Steve Bisson: 15:12

Then also knowing the like I and one of the things that also drove me nuts is tell me every outpatient therapy you've ever had or every, like, who remembers that? You might remember the last few if you're lucky. And I tell people, like, just give me a vague idea of five and inpatients just give me a vague idea doesn't matter where you went. And if it was something that happened within the last week, yeah, that'd be great to give me the address that you know where you went. But otherwise, really, it's just a color. And they don't really teach you how to do that. They tell you the technical way of doing it, they don't tell you how to do it.

Bill Dwinnells: 15:46

Well, I think they focus too much on history. They want this very clear history so that they can come up with the right diagnosis. And I just don't I don't think that's super important. Please don't let my insurance companies hear that. But I'm not sure that's really what we're supposed to be going for. I need to like you said, I need to have a general idea of what your history is. But my philosophy anyways has always been, I really need to focus on what's going on with you today. How you happen, you know, you might have this crazy History Prior to arriving to me, and I need to be aware of that. But I shouldn't be using that, to judge you here and now. And more especially judge you on how I'm going to treat you moving forward, I need to figure out how I'm going to help the person who's in front of me not respond to their history as colorful as it may be with some of these folks.

Courtney Romanowski: 16:43

And that whether it's crisis, or partial or individual outpatient therapy, that relationship really starts from the beginning. Like we're gathering that information, right? And if it is just a checklist and a cold link going down each page, that from my experience, the the person on the other side is already Okay, cool. So I'm not a human being to you. There is no relationship. Right.

Steve Bisson: 17:11

And I think that there's multiple studies that shows that the most effective treatment is not cognitive behavioral therapies, not behavioral therapy is not DBT. It's not psychoanalytic, it's therapeutic alliance. And I tell people, that's more important than what you're, it's nice to have a niche, congratulations, I give you credit. But ultimately, if you can't relate to people, does it really matter if you know, every frickin psychoanalytic person from Freud down to whoever it is now this that's just my two cents about that. So when people go to like, we come out of school, you talk about getting your, you know, going into private practice, sometimes people will go to agency work, right? I wish someone told me what to bring. Because you know, you bring your DSM five t r, if x, y, z, w x, y, whatever the hell is called this week, and then you bring yellow pad and maybe a plant, and then you're like, I'm ready to do therapy. It to me, that's not necessarily true. So what's the one thing that you would recommend? Maybe not one, whatever you would recommend for people to bring into a therapy session as a therapist, first of all? Oh, and booth is not the answer for the record. The answer? Now, it's the it's a solution. That's all it is.

Courtney Romanowski: 18:40

Yet, necessarily bring it but I was gonna say light. The way I have my office setup, Steve, I don't know if you've noticed this, I have my big computer screen on my desk. But I have my desk away from like, it's out the window, but it's away from it so that I can still get the light without it. I don't know, for me as a therapist, if I can get some natural light during sessions between sessions, and just just be able to feel like a human, I guess. That, to me is important. Lightning is important in my life for me. So knowing that for myself, I set up my office a certain way so that I could experience the light. Throughout my time in my office,

Bill Dwinnells: 19:27

it's very spiritual.

Steve Bisson: 19:30

There really is no, I think that it's important. You've seen how I have arranged the office myself. I have the corner office because it has two windows. Let's just say and so I get that and I absolutely agree. What about you, Bill? What do you think you would recommend? Well, I

Bill Dwinnells: 19:49

think it's funny because most of what I do is virtual so in some ways, I don't really have an office to bring things to so I'll get a little metaphysical i i would say no Make sure you're approaching your client with an open mind. And not pre judging the situation. I work with a lot of clinicians who, kind of like what we were talking about earlier, they read the client's history, and they're like, Oh, well, you know, this client has this diagnosis. But you haven't met the client yet? How are you determining that? If you go in with a preconceived notion of who this person is, and what they're all about, you're going to bias your entire assessment of the individual, because you're going to start looking for things that prove you are right. And that's just something that all humans do. We're looking for the evidence that yeah, we got it right. As opposed to looking at all the evidence that's there, that, you know, may, if you had been open to it will lead you to a different conclusion, you know, maybe this person isn't a borderline personality, maybe this person is something else. You are they they're suffering from something else, and that we need to be aware of.

Steve Bisson: 21:02

And I think that the medical field, particularly in mental health, if you get a diagnosis, once a borderline personality disorder, it follows you around? Well, yeah, I don't know about you, but I'm not the same person I was 10 years ago, frankly, I'm not even the same person I was yesterday. So I think that what we also tend to forget is that diagnosis should be really able to change it because sometimes after knowing someone they may come in as the press, lo and behold, they just they stopped drinking for the last four days. So they're not depressed. They're just in withdrawal, and making it up, but you get the point.

Bill Dwinnells: 21:37

Well, I think also that this is a little off topic, but it also harkens to, you know, when the folks you're working with are asking you Well, well, what did you diagnose me with? My first question is, how will that help you? Well, it'll tell me what it is. Oh, no, no. I try to really stress to the folks I work with that, you know, the diagnosis does not define them. You know, that's just one person's opinion from some sliver a moment in time, which may or may not have even been accurate.

Steve Bisson: 22:12

Your question is good. I also ask, Why ask why? And it doesn't matter. I mean, I've been in therapy for what 20? Something years myself? Do I know my diagnosis? The answer is no, I don't have a clue that they've ever diagnosed me, nor do I really care, frankly. And that's what I think it is, like, my my best therapists, and all of them have been pretty good. They treat me for what's in front of them, not, Steve, it says here that you've got whatever they think I have, I have no clue. I'm assuming a, I have some sort of sort of depression and post traumatic stress, but whatever. I mean, maybe I'm just a personality disorder, who knows. But at the end of the day, I really don't care. And certainly don't care, because my, they're just treating me for my symptoms, not treating me for my diagnosis. Right.

Courtney Romanowski: 23:02

And that's when I'm still working on like, how I am naming who I work with, but I've tried to get away from like somebody who had is diagnosed with depression, or has an anxiety disorder, and just like the symptoms of mood and anxiety, or, or whatever, because you can have symptoms, and that doesn't mean that that's what it is. And let's like you said, state, let's just see what's happening today. And flow through that.

Steve Bisson: 23:38

Someone has a someone passes away that are very close to and I'm not wishing that to anyone, but they just died the day before you go. Sorry. But your program says here, we got to talk about your attention deficit issues. And you're not paying attention to the treatment right now. So it's really I've cried because someone died. I'm like, not that's the program here. Sorry.

Bill Dwinnells: 24:00

Not adhering to your diagnosis, you must be treated non compliant.

Steve Bisson: 24:05

That's why it's a little weird. And you know, we talked about the diagnosis. And I think that leads to the next question. Because I think that most of our clients ask me about diagnosis. And I tell them, I just don't care about diagnosis. And if insurance companies are listening to me, I don't care about diagnosis. And one of the things I've wondered, and I have my own answer, obviously, but what do you guys think clients should know about therapy? Because one of them is your diagnosis should not dictate your treatment. But do you have anything in particular Courtney, how about we start off with you about something they should know in therapy? They should know about therapy? That's because they come in with some preconceived notions.

Courtney Romanowski: 24:45

I think, but as a therapist, I don't. I don't have expectations of them as my clients. I don't have I try not to have a preconceived. notion of what our, our time together is going to look like. Each time we meet, they don't have to worry about me in session and like not giving or telling everything that's going on or sharing much, because they're concerned about how I'm going to feel about it.

Bill Dwinnells: 25:20

Think that they have it wrong. And what I mean by that is, I think the folks who come to us looking for some assistance. They don't understand they're the ones in charge. Therapy is not something I do to you. I'm not here to therapy's you. All right, this is something that we do together. And to be quite honest, you as the client, you're leading the way, I'm just a guy, I'm a guide. So we're going to talk about whatever you want to talk about. My job is to get you to look at different perspectives. But I think the important thing to remember is, and I say this a lot in my own work, you keep your power, I'm not looking to, I don't want your power. No, I have my own power. But I want to help you really actualize your own power, because a lot of these folks who come to us, they're very used to giving their power away. So they come to us, and they're like, oh, here, I'll go to you. I'll tell you all this stuff, and you'll fix me. No, I won't. You're going to fix yourself. And in the end, you're gonna laugh, because you could almost say like, Well, what did I need you for? It's like, well, you need to be to realize you didn't need this is all within your power to begin, it was all within your power to begin with. So I think if folks could kind of real really understand what it is they're getting into, and realize that in a lot of ways the roles are reversed. From what they think. I think a number of them might have more positive experiences within therapy.

Steve Bisson: 27:06

And I think the only thing I would add to that, and we'll back to you, Courtney after if you want, but there's a couple of things I would say. When people ask me about fixing and all that I always remind I said, I've seen over 9000 people getting close to 10,000 people in my career, how many people did I fix? And most people give me an answer of 20 30%, whatever the hell it is. And I say zero. I can barely fix myself, number one. Number two, I give the tools to people so that they can work on themselves, and then they use them effectively for themselves. Now I do that I give you tools, but I've never fixed a person in my life. Right. That's one of the things that I remind people, I don't fix anyone. The other thing I remind them, and it's something that is a theme for me in general in my life is that I'm a human being. Just because I'm a therapist, doesn't mean my shit those think it doesn't mean anything else. But then I'm a human who happens to have a piece of paper that says I have a master's. Otherwise, you know, I'm a human being just like you and I have a lot of knowledge and psychology. But I know nothing about cars. And yes, that's not very manly of me. But what do I care? Gordy, did you want to add? No, it's

Courtney Romanowski: 28:17

It's along the same lines of? I don't have all the answers. Right? Like you said, I can give you this, I can help you with the skills I can reflect back to you so that you have a different perspective. Yeah, the clients who say, you know, fix me or so what do I do? Oh, no. Let's look at it differently,

Steve Bisson: 28:41

or let's call the crisis team.

Courtney Romanowski: 28:45

They'll know what to do. But yeah, so this, this idea that the therapist is going to fix them or the therapist has the power to let go of that. And, and again, this the idea that there's an expert again, I go back to you, I don't have as your therapist, I don't have an expectation of what you're going to be like what our time together is going to look like what, at the end of the day. I have no expectations. You come in next week and have the same exact thing to say to me, say the exact same thing to me, and we will go through it again. So,

Steve Bisson: 29:24

no, I definitely had a client once told me that they weren't dressed properly for therapy and I'm like, what does the hell does that mean? Well, I'm wearing my something I wore to the gym and like do you stink heavily? No, I don't care. That there would be you I don't really care what you're wearing. And to this day she says that that was a liberating thing because she thought there was some sort of like, the quorum or whatever the hell we call it, they come to therapy and I'm like, have you seen how I dress I mean, certain protocol. There's no protocol. And you know the one thing I had sent because this is also meant that I'm trying to combine people who may not know each other. And I know that. I know I've talked to you about Bill, obviously, court. And Bill, I've talked to him about court to you, but you don't know each other. And I know you've heard each other's podcast. So I was wondering if you had any questions for each other. And I'll start with Bill this time, if you had any questions for Courtney.

Bill Dwinnells: 30:19

Yeah, one of the things I was really taken with Courtney was, as I had said, I thought that as a movement therapist, you couldn't be any more diametrically opposed in the way that you do things as compared to a grizzled crisis worker. But I was taken aback when you were talking, I especially like what you were talking about with using the breath in your practices and stuff, because that's something that I do a lot with the folks that I work with, granted, I'm doing it more as a sitting or standing meditation, you know, not a whole lot of movement, though, certainly talk to them about how they can incorporate some movement to it, where yours is much more kinetic, where you're, you know, the whole point is to be moving, you know, through the breath, and so forth. The big question I would have for you is, what specifically do you use? Or how are you using the breath in your practice? And do you have any recommendations on how someone else could use breathwork? In their practice, whether it's stationary, or my guesses for you have any more movement based? But

Courtney Romanowski: 31:32

yeah, so when I use breath, there are two, usually two things that are typically happening. It's a connecting of, it's asking the client, how are you experiencing? The breath? Like, where? How did that feel? Which sounds like such an easy question within it's not always. And then really, it's about what I what I like to do is give the space for the client to kind of take it from there. I don't know if I'm using your question. But there's a huge witnessing piece of not just guiding somebody through the breath, but seeing how they take it. Often I see people not exhale, Bing Bing, being cognizant that not everybody can call themselves a movement therapist, because they didn't go to school for movement therapy, but I think can share the the witnessing part. Bill, if you're if you're trying to guide somebody through a breathing meditation, like, hey, so I noticed your your inhale was a little short, like, what's going on there for you, or even the mirroring of it? We had talked about the before the recording, started guiding through doing it, right, and kind of setting that to use. There's a lot of relationship building in that which I think can take us into the next, whatever the next aspect of the session is, or the crisis. Part is, I don't know if I answered your question.

Bill Dwinnells: 33:21

But all you did, I think you did a great job, you You're, you're definitely getting some stuff percolating up there for me to try with some of my clients. Actually, later tonight.

Courtney Romanowski: 33:33

A friend of mine that I used to work with at the partial program, she the other day, we were talking about something and she called me the processing queen. Just be I do like to give the space to clients after we take a breath, or if there's this shaping that's going on when we breathe with our posture or even just, again, how we're relating to ourselves and to others, with our body when we'll be in. And so yeah, I'll, I'll ask the question, you know, how do you feel taking that deep breath and then to give the space to then like I said before, let the client kind of take it from there. So it's, it's almost about not moving. In that moment. That's just as important as the movement.

Bill Dwinnells: 34:23

Interesting. Like, it's interesting that you're that you use the because a lot of what I do is a lot of mindfulness based stuff. So typically, what I'm doing is I'm using I'm helping the client use focusing on the breath as a way to calm the mind. Whereas you're using the breath more to explore the movements.

Courtney Romanowski: 34:46

Yeah, there you know, our body loves so much. So if we're actually taking a moment to slow our mind down by taking a deep breath, something's unlocked. Something is shifted enough and we're giving our So I've set morning routine notice it?

Bill Dwinnells: 35:02

Yeah. Yeah. Because I have had clients come back and tell me to go, I started doing this meditation and I have got this pain in my pack now. Like, well, you know, I promised the meditation didn't do it, you probably had that pain all the time. You just didn't pay attention to it. Now, this is your body talking to you.

Courtney Romanowski: 35:21

You know, like, there's, there's just so much that can come from that simple. It's going on in our bodies.

Bill Dwinnells: 35:29

Now, but that was really cool. Yeah.

Steve Bisson: 35:32

And you know, you always have this opportunity for anyone who's listening or watching this, you can go to Courtney's website, there is a handout we made a few months ago, that is still extremely valuable, this will be valuable for the next 20 years, if you want to look at it. So just wanted to plug that for you, Courtney. It's on your website. I know we worked on it together. It is not on my website, unfortunately. But it is available for a per request. But so a lot easier to go to Courtney's website,

Courtney Romanowski: 36:01

a new direction therapy.com I'm sure it'll be linked in the show notes. It will

Steve Bisson: 36:06

100% be linked. Now that Bill has grilled you, Courtney, oil bill on something

Courtney Romanowski: 36:16

as the seasoned crisis worker that you are. And again, acknowledging that crisis work is a great opportunity for new clinicians to learn learn the skills and learn their way. What would you current you tell new therapists bill, now about crisis work.

Bill Dwinnells: 36:43

I tell them to relax. Which sounds like a very strange thing to say, if you're gonna go into crisis work, but it it really does require you. And actually one of the reasons why I got into meditation, because it really does require you to have a very calm mind while you're dealing with everybody else's chaos. And I've said for years that what needs to happen is that as the crisis worker, I need to be the eye of the storm. I don't necessarily need to be able to solve your emergency that may or may require more specialist pull, I can at least get you together, enough to move you on to whatever the next, you know, whatever the next stage is for that person. But yeah, I think I would, I would tell myself to relax and calm down and just kind of a lot of like what we talked about before, don't prejudge the situation, just whatever's happening when you get there, deal with it.

Courtney Romanowski: 37:53

Take it as it comes.

Bill Dwinnells: 37:57

You can always debrief it later.

Steve Bisson: 38:00

And we definitely will have something to talk about in July 1, because we will all be now able to section in the state of Massachusetts someone and I don't know if you guys knew that. But as of July 1 2023, apparently deaths will be a thing in Massachusetts, and we go section twelves. In Massachusetts, every state has a different name for it. But it's essentially taking someone's right due to possible actively suicidal actively homicidal or lack of judgment that may lead to harm of that individual. So FYI, I didn't know if you knew that. But hey, if not, I'm breaking some news. And that'll be great. Oh, as we wrap up here, because it's funny, because we always do like to pre chat. I was like, I'll keep it to 2030 minutes. And of course, we're like on the 4050 minutes side already, which is fine by me. But for the record, but you've been on the podcast a few times. Did you feel like you got anything from this podcast? Or being on here? Or is this something that you would recommend to do for someone or anything like that, just generally speaking, and we'll go bill.

Bill Dwinnells: 39:09

Look, I really like being on your podcasts. So I've done it a number of times now. So maybe I'm just a slow learner. I don't know what the deal is. But you know, I really enjoy because you you've introduced me to a lot of very interesting people who I probably would not have otherwise necessarily interacted with much. I mean, like even just having Courtney here today. She's a movement therapists. I don't really have a lot of interaction with movement therapists. No offense to movement therapist, just different circles different sort of knee gets

Steve Bisson: 39:42

very easily insulted just for the record. Yes.

Bill Dwinnells: 39:47

But But I think I think that's that's a good thing. Quarter you asked about younger me, younger me probably would have been very, in a way nervous to talk to a movement therapist. It's like, well, that's not what I do. Why would I want it Talk to a movement therapist. Holder means I want to talk to everybody. Now, how do you do what you do? Take bits and pieces of that incorporated. And so what I do you know that that's what I really liked about the podcast is the variety of people that I get to meet through you through the podcast through. That's, that's my

Steve Bisson: 40:20

I can't be I haven't been able to do that. What about you, Courtney.

Courtney Romanowski: 40:25

So it took me took a while to get me on, right I was,

Steve Bisson: 40:29

I was running out of money to

Courtney Romanowski: 40:32

milk it for as long as I could. It's blown my mind how comfortable I am to talk with others about what I do. Just because I'm not a big talker in general. But it's what's even more awesome is that it gets me almost like really excited about the work I do, and gets the juices flowing. And then talking with other people. It gets me curious about other things. So it's very invigorating to be on. And just awesome to connect with other people about this work because it's can be such an isolating profession. So it's, it just feels good. It feels good.

Steve Bisson: 41:15

Well, you guys actually encompass a lot of the stuff that I wanted to do with this podcast, I wanted people to open their minds on different things they might have not looked at. And then start realizing that just being yourself and authentic, not only as a therapist, but as a client, is probably the best thing you can ever do for yourself. So you know, you guys encode this a lot of the belief systems that I put in this podcast. So the money I paid you guys paid off. That's great. Very happy about that. But one of the thank you, because this is like, you know, this is an important week for me, I never thought I would get to 100 podcasts. And I don't feel like I'm going to stop anytime soon at this point. And I truly enjoy doing that. But on a personal note, because we're friends. I just enjoy having you guys on and I hope I have you on again soon.

Courtney Romanowski: 42:01

And congratulations.

Bill Dwinnells: 42:03

Congratulations on 100 guests. Unbelievable.

Steve Bisson: 42:09

You'll probably have to come on if I want to get to 200. So we'll just rotate. Right, exactly. That's what I did. Anytime,

Bill Dwinnells: 42:17

anytime. No, really, thank

Courtney Romanowski: 42:19

you for the opportunities. And thank

Steve Bisson: 42:21

thank you for keeping it fresh, and I will talk to you soon, guys. Thanks. Well, this concludes the first episode in the week of celebration. Thank you, Courtney. Thank you, Bill. I hope you enjoyed it as much as I did. And I didn't think I would get that emotional. But thank you to you guys. And I hope you'll come back tomorrow to listen to you know a little bit of me ranting and raving and talking about stuff. And again, it's my 100th Episode week, I just want to enjoy myself. So please join me then.

Outro: 42:53

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