Finding Your Way Through Therapy
Join Steve Bisson, LMHC as he unravels the complexities of therapy and counseling. Engage in straightforward dialogues, enriched with insights from special guests sharing a like-minded perspective. Each episode presents valuable, easy-to-digest information designed to help you perceive therapy, and those who partake in it, in a grounding, relatable manner.
Finding Your Way Through Therapy
From Therapy to Podcourses: Navigating Personal Growth and Midlife Transitions with Lisa Mustard in Summer Replay
Ever wondered about the critical differences between therapy and life coaching? Lisa and I unpack the unique roles each plays in personal development. Through personal stories, we highlight the powerful impact of relationships and parental figures on healing. We also delve into the importance of aligning actions with personal values, setting meaningful goals, and maintaining accountability. Discover how coaching focuses on present and future progress, while therapy often addresses past experiences, and understand the complementary roles of business coaches and therapists in achieving a well-rounded personal growth journey.
As we wrap up the episode, we dive into the world of podcasting, emphasizing the importance of catering to one's interests instead of trying to please everyone. From my transition from a career in sports marketing and professional wrestling to becoming a marriage and family therapist, to navigating midlife transitions with the aid of support systems, the conversation is packed with insights. Lisa and I also share our personal preferences in content consumption and the value of curating social media feeds. Don't miss the end where we discuss the critical role of mentors and the evolution of our podcasting journeys, culminating in an enriching and authentic experience for our listeners.
Hi and welcome to Finding your Way Through Therapy. I'm your host, Steve Bissom. The goal of this podcast is to demystify therapy, what can happen in therapy and the wide array of conversations you can have in therapy. I also talk to guests about therapy, their experience with therapy and how psychology is present in many places in their lives. I also share personal stories, so please join me on this journey about therapy. Hi and welcome to episode 75 of Finding your Way Through Therapy. I am Steve Biso.
Speaker 1:If you haven't listened to episode 74, it was a special episode for veterans. We did this in honor of Veterans Day. That was last week. So I hope you go listen to that and even if it's not around a Veterans Day, please listen to it anyway, because it is such an important episode. I truly, truly enjoyed listening to the stories from Kyle, Jay and Caitlin, but episode 75 will be with someone that I've known for a few years through a podcast, but she really helped me, I want to say, about two years ago, when I started my podcast and I was a little nervous in regards to what to do next.
Speaker 1:So Lisa Mustard is the person, and Lisa Mustard is an LMFT and coach in South Carolina. She's the wife to Billy and mom to two girls. She has been practicing since 2006, and she also has worked in a military branch for about 10 years. Three years ago, she decided to start a podcast after sitting in a conference for two days straight. I'm pretty sure she'll share that story. She created Continuing Education for Therapists via podcasting, aka podcourses. She also coaches women experiencing midlife struggles and when not seeing clients or working on her podcast, she chauffeurs her daughters to volleyball practice and games, hits up the gym and explores the gorgeous South Carolina hiking trails with her husband.
Speaker 1:I think we're going to talk about a lot of this stuff and I can't tell you how much I'm excited. I sent her a message through social media saying hey, Lisa, would you be willing to come on my podcast? I really didn't think she would say yes, and she jumped at it and I'm happy that she did so. Here's the interview. Well, welcome to episode 76 of Finding your Way Through Therapy and YouTube channel number 18. So I think you knew that, but now you really know that you're going to be on camera and it's going to be memorialized on YouTube forever and ever.
Speaker 1:So this is a guest that I've always wanted to have on and she said sure, in about two and a half seconds to me, and it's such an honor for so many things. So I'm going to say, first of all, the thank you for being my guest, because it is truly an honor. Lisa, I've known you for a long time or I feel like I've known you because I've listened to your podcast for a couple of years now and thank you for your support, because one of the things you may not remember is when I was doing my process of starting my podcast, I had actually contacted you and two other podcasters, which were also helpful, but I truly got a whole lot from you. I even got some referrals for different things that I was going to do with the podcast through you, and I don't know if you remember that conversation. It doesn't matter if you do or not but I wanted to thank you because I don't think I ever sent you a proper thank you.
Speaker 2:Oh, you're welcome, and thank you also for your podcast, because I think that, think I ever sent you a proper thank you.
Speaker 1:Oh, you're welcome. And thank you also for your podcast, because I think that your podcast is so amazing. It moves to different subjects, from CUs talking about college, talking about so many great things and for me, I've been like a loyal listener for over two years and so this is an honor for me. I'm fan gushing here, oh my gosh. But, lisa Mustard, welcome to finding your way through therapy.
Speaker 2:Well, thanks, steve, for having me. Oh my gosh, I am like blushing over here. I thank you. I mean, you know, it's so funny. I never know who listens to the show, and so I'm so grateful that we connected and that you reached out that day and that you listen. Oh my gosh, you for listening. I really appreciate it and I do remember our conversation. I am I have mom brain a good bit, so it's all kind of coming back to me now. So, yes, I do remember our initial conversation and, yeah, it's amazing to see how far you've come, like it blows my mind. I'm so like, I'm so proud of you well, thank you, and again I the.
Speaker 1:The honor is all mine for real, lisa, and we're going to talk about it, obviously, but therapy show Lisa Mustard on a great network, also, as far as I understand, right now too, which is even better, but just wanted to throw that out. But I feel like I know you because of everything, but my audience might not know you. So, lisa, how about you tell me a little bit about yourself?
Speaker 2:Sure Well, hey guys, it's great to be here. Thanks for having me on your show. My name is Lisa Mustard. I live in South Carolina.
Speaker 2:I am a marriage and family therapist. I've been doing this work since like 2006, I think about then. That's when I graduated from my program and started into the world of therapy and the past like 10, 11 years is that right? I've worked primarily for a military branch, but about 3 years ago I guess maybe more I had this idea to start a podcast and I just went for it. And I think that's probably the advice I gave you was just go for it, because I truly believe that if you've got this song in your heart kind of feeling you should do it. Don't sit on it too long, because they say the best time to start a podcast was 10 years ago or tomorrow or today. So yeah, that's me in a nutshell. My mom, I'm a wife, I'm a chauffeur, I drive my kids everywhere for volleyball. They play a lot of volleyball in this house, so I don't know what else I can share, but that's me in a nutshell, I guess.
Speaker 1:So I don't know what else I can share, but that's me in a nutshell, I guess. Well, I think that you said a lot, and certainly I like how you described yourself, because there's so many roles we play in life, and that's one of the things that I find so helpful about your podcast is that you talk about all the different roles we play in life. So it was great to hear all those roles you play, because those are not even close to the all the roles you play, I'm sure.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I'm sure I play more roles, depending on the day. You're right and it's true. I think that that's what I remember. In college.
Speaker 2:I did this in my public speaking class. The one thing I got an A on in that class was the speech I did about how we wear many different hats and even brought in the visual of different hats. So like I put a hat on and I would talk about this role that I was in, and I take that hat and put another hat on and talk about this role and come to think of it, I still do that. You know, probably when I put on my baseball cap, I'm a, I'm in a different role than when I put on my mom, like I don't even know what you call it Sun hat, I just make fun of. But yeah, and I think you're wise and I noticed that in your show too is one minute you are the therapist and you're talking to folks about, like, what they do and you're talking about how it all plays into the process. Then you're interviewing other therapists and it's just that's who we are. We play many, many different roles and I think that's important to recognize.
Speaker 1:The part that I want to share with my audience and tell you what you said. I said go for it. That you said that about no exaggeration at least 10 times. So that was the first thing that I really needed to hear. So I really appreciate that.
Speaker 1:But number two, I was talking about how you know how do we do a podcast and keep it like, do only this? And you're like, no, no, you do this is about you. You do only this and you're like, no, no, you do this is about you. You got to put your personality in there and that's kind of how I've taken it. So you're right, one day I'm interviewing therapists, the other day I'm interviewing first responders, the other day I'm going into a crisis work and I talk about Buddhism because that's one of my passions. And he said just follow those passions, don't change who you are on a podcast. And that's the advice you gave me.
Speaker 1:So I'm pretty sure you probably do the same thing for your clients, both in your coaching and in your military, as well as a family therapist. So that's what I really. You resonated with me so much. And again, like I said, I'm the one who should be blushing at this point, not you. But the other thing, too, is that when we talk about therapy, one of the one who should be blushing at this point not you. But the other thing, too is that when we talk about therapy, one of the first things I always ask my clients is a standard question for my podcast have you ever been in therapy yourself?
Speaker 2:Oh, yes, I've been in therapy. I didn't go to therapy until my late twenties though I probably should have gone sooner, but I wasn't open to it. And the reason for that is I was going through a lot in my teen years, but I just didn't want to talk to anybody. It wasn't forced upon me to go to therapy, but when I hit my mid-20s is when I decided to go. And the reason I went is because my then well, he's now my husband, but at the time he was my boyfriend he broke up with me and he said it was because, really, deep down, I wasn't a very happy person and I had to learn how to be happy on my own before I could be in a relationship. And he was right, because what I was doing was I was putting all of my hopes and dreams on him to make me happy.
Speaker 2:And, man, that is not a great place to be, especially, really, when you don't know what you want. And so when you don't know what you want, you're looking to external validation or external resources or to do that for you. It's a pretty unhappy place. And so that's when I first went to therapy, was I want to say I was 26, 27. And I just loved it, loved it and my therapist was great. I still see her every now and then around and we connect and we talk and I've had many therapists since then because I like to kind of try new folks out and try different ways. And then I've also done life coaching and I'm a huge advocate, proponent of getting support and getting help when you need it.
Speaker 1:And I think that that's what I want to get here from the guests, because sometimes we forget that being in therapy ourselves can be so beneficial and open up our eyes. Because I'm sorry to break a wall here for those of you who are not ready for it, but therapists are human too, and I think that I remember going to college and one of our my first professor, said who's here to learn more about themselves in class? And then a lot of people put their hands up. He's like you're all going to be terrible therapists if you're not in therapy. How many of you are in therapy? And only a few put their hands up and I'm like, oh crap, I got to get into therapy.
Speaker 2:Right, right, it's so true, it's so true.
Speaker 1:So I feel you and learning to be happy with ourselves. I don't know, have you figured it out yet?
Speaker 2:Oh gosh, I mean, I'm constantly and I'm a work in progress and I think most, what's most important is awareness, is, you know, really being in tune with yourself and with your thoughts, feelings and actions, and being aware of when you're having a thought that doesn't serve you or serve other people, and being able to take a step back and be like Whoa, what's going on here. This does not jive with the person that I want to show up as, so have I figured it out? I mean, I feel like that's as close as we can get to figuring it out and then just being open to learning about ourselves and to other people. So I don't know, have you figured it out?
Speaker 1:No, that's why I was interested. Really, I'm like, if you did figure it out, you got to write a book, I got to figure it out, and I think that, to go a little bit on that, I think that with therapy I've learned that life work balance doesn't truly exist. You can do your best, but it's still not something that's going to be. A working on my perfectionism is also very helpful, but I always think about what helped me the most in my therapy, and there are two things that I really note is I've had a lot of cognitive distortions in my life and I use those, especially from David Burns, among others, but those are one of the many things that I use regularly.
Speaker 1:The other one, my current therapist and like you, I've had three therapists, but they're all kind of different in many ways. He says to me like you need to stop being a cortisol junkie, and he said to me that when you worked in a crisis team, when you worked in the jails, when you worked with the police, you kind of become a cortisol junkie. So sometimes, even in my private life, I look for that cortisol shot, and so I kind of remind myself am I looking for a cortisol shot? Is there cognitive distortion involved. And again, it's not perfect, it's still a lot of progress.
Speaker 1:I would ask you what was the best advice you got in therapy?
Speaker 2:Oh gosh, let me think you know it's funny, the things that stand out to me the most. Really, we don't want to hear this, but it's actually my life coach that gave me the best advice. And I think the difference is in therapy we process, we process, we process. So much we talk about what's happened in the past and how it's showing up in the in our present and how we want to be different with it. But my life coach was more like let's move you forward. You kind of know your stuff, you know what triggers you, you know you know where that goes. How do you want to? If you have these goals over here, like, how do you reach them? How do you make a plan to get there?
Speaker 2:And the best thing that I ever did with him was to look at my list of priorities and values and get very clear on what's important in my life and not what I think should be important in my life, but what is truly important in my life and really getting clear on what those values are and am I living them congruently and authentically. So that's probably the most important thing in my adult life that I have worked on. I could definitely tell you that I've worked on my stuff with my like my, my dad. I have a lot. I had lots. Could definitely tell you that I've worked on my stuff with my dad. I had lots of stuff with my dad.
Speaker 2:I've worked through that and I think I was able to heal a lot of that because of the person that I chose to marry and the person that he is and he has a lot of patience and he is very kind. I mean he loves me unconditionally. So together well, not together, but I've healed a lot of that daddy stuff. Don't get me wrong, he doesn't take the place of my dad, but through his love and in our relationship I've been able to heal a lot of the stuff I didn't have growing up. In fact, I was telling him last night because we have two daughters just kind of what I didn't have growing up and how I see him as a dad showing up that way. It just is so amazing for me to know that those, our girls, are going to have that with their dad. So like I needed to go through that so I could identify my values, you know, yeah.
Speaker 1:And I think that that's. It's something that I, when people come into therapy and more of my resistant client are like that I, when people come into therapy, and more my resistant client are like they're gonna blame my mom and dad. I'm not gonna blame mom and dad, but unfortunately they're the ones who hang out with you the most until age 18, so they get a lot of the blame. But we're not looking to blame anyone, we're just looking to heal and that's a whole different ballgame. Yeah, but I always like to remind people of that. Do we have mommy and daddy issues? I think everyone does to a certain extent, but it's because they were the ones who were most present for the longest time.
Speaker 1:But let's shift gears in the sense that you started talking about. I laughed because you said oh well, you may not want to hear this, but it was my life coach For me. I have a business coach and I have a therapist and I wouldn't want it any other way right now in my life because they're both helping me in different ways. Tell me a little bit about the difference between a coach versus therapy. You explained it a little bit, but can you give me of it and how I work with people?
Speaker 2:Therapy. Of course you have to be licensed in the state to practice, and I'm only licensed in South Carolina, which is great. I don't mind that I actually have telehealth license or registration in Florida, so I could do that. Life coaching is a little bit more flexible in terms of there's no regulation out there. There are certifications out there, but there's no board or state licensing board that's going to look at your certification and deem you to be a coach.
Speaker 2:It's very different in that regards, and coaching to me is not a medical model. For a lot of therapists it's a medical model. So in coaching you're not diagnosing, you're not processing trauma, you're not processing the past. It might be discussed in coaching, but a good coach who isn't a therapist should, or even a therapist who's doing coaching does not want to be working on processing trauma, addiction issues, any of the stuff that you would deem diagnosable, right. So what the main difference is? You're working on the present and you're working towards future. So it's a lot of setting goals, action plans, accountability, things like that, and you definitely can do those things in therapy. But there's a difference, and I do have people coming to me for therapy who want coaching, so I can see how that can also kind of jive together.
Speaker 1:But to me, like I said, coaching is definitely more action oriented and future focused actions in therapy, but I feel that coaching has a lot more accountability because, all right, what are we working on?
Speaker 1:in the next week I think that that's how I perceive it. Differently is, in coaching We'll talk about identifying stressors, or how are we going to handle the stressors. Where you want to be in three years or three months or three or six months, doesn't matter to me, and I think that that puts you accountable for your actions for the next week or in the next month or whenever you're meeting with your coach. So I agree with that. How is your coaching kind of like dedicated towards that accountability and that change? Because you said about being goal oriented, which I really like, but can you tell me more about that?
Speaker 2:Yeah. So one of the things that I do with coaching clients, first off, is I love values, I love priorities. So we get really clear on what your values are and we'll go over them with a microscope. And I want to know why is this important to you? Where did this come from? Where did you learn this, that kind of thing?
Speaker 2:And once we identify your values, my next question is okay, well, how congruently are you living them out? Because you might tell me that family is a priority or family is a value, but yet you feel disconnected from your family. You aren't spending time with your family. Maybe they're mad at you, maybe your kids, your relationships aren't that great. So we're going to take a, but you tell me that's where you want to put your energy and you want to really thrive. So we're going to really look at, okay, what's going on with the relationships or what's going on with your thrive? So we're going to really look at, okay, well, what's going on with the relationships or what's going on with your family, and then we're going to make a plan to have you really actually implement family being a focus or family being first. And for an example for me, family is number one.
Speaker 2:But when I was trying to grow my business and trying to grow my podcast, I realized like, oh my gosh, I am putting the family on the back burner and that's not how I want to show up in this world as a mom. So I had to get really clear on when can I do my podcast and when can I work on my business. That's not going to interfere with my family time family time. So I had to make some behavior changes and I had to get really clear on well, when am I going to With my scheduling? And I couldn't just be oh well, this person can only record on Tuesday at 4. I have to now change my life around that. I had to have better boundaries with my business and also with clients, and then also with the phone. The phone is like this thing right here can take you away from your family, like that.
Speaker 2:So it really just comes down to the individual and what their priorities are. For example, somebody might tell me that health and wellness is a priority or a value, but yet they have no energy, they're overeating, or maybe they're eating the wrong foods or they can't find time to exercise. Their sleep isn't good. So if that's a priority to you and you want to make it happen. What are three things that are non-negotiables that you can do tomorrow. So it's very much like tell me what's important to you, let's talk about why it's important. How are you showing up in that value as it is, and what do you want to be different? And then let's make a plan, and the plan is going to look different for everybody.
Speaker 2:Health and wellness is going to look different for one person than another, and we can do this in so many of your values or areas of your life Faith, spirituality, having a good time, relationships, founding a partner I mean, really, it just comes down to what do you hold to be of most value and what's most important in your life, and there's no judgment on if your values aren't what your neighbor's values are. Your best friend, it's what? Because you're a unique individual and you have wants and you have desires and you have needs in this world. And, like gosh, don't you want to go for those things and live authentically and feel good in your skin and show up in the world being the best you?
Speaker 2:So a lot of people might be like, well, yeah, but I feel depressed or I have anxiety or I have substance issues. Well then, don't go to coaching quite just yet. Or you can be in therapy and have a coach at the same time. I'm not sure that's always the best situation, depending on, like, where you are in your emotional health. But if that's something that's of interest to you, then talk to your therapist about it first, like let your therapist know that's what you want and see if they can maybe give you some of that as well. But process that and with your and I say this, it's like it's such a broad statement and everybody's so different and everything is so nuanced, and so what I'm saying right now might resonate with some and might be a huge turnoff to others, and I respect that because we're all in different parts of our journeys. But yeah, so I think that's probably kind of went off there.
Speaker 1:No, you didn't. I think that you said so many important things because, to confess with you my life, when I didn't know my values and my priorities and again, there's no blame here to be had but part of my divorce was due to that, because my values were all over the place and I can only account for myself. So I just account that for myself, among other things. So I do believe in values. I think that's so important. The other thing that you said that I really liked is you showed your phone. I have the same. It's right next to me.
Speaker 1:Who doesn't have their phone next to them at all times? You said you know it's something that takes you away from your family and other values that you may have. I like to also say it takes you out from reality, Because the phone, when you look at it, I mean you're on Instagram, like I am, and all that. People are always like, oh, but this person on Instagram looks so happy or they're doing this, and I'm like, yeah, that's the glimpse of eight seconds. Maybe you're lucky a minute and a half of their whole 24 hours, and I don't know if you talk about that with people, but for me, like I tell people that most phones are out of reality.
Speaker 2:Yeah, oh yeah, definitely.
Speaker 2:I mean, I just started unfollowing some people recently because I found it taking me down this comparison bill and I I hate that when I know that that's something that'll have me shrink back really, really quickly and so I, you know, have to unfollow people, not because I don't like them or think they're great.
Speaker 2:It just doesn't help my emotional health or my mental health. Yeah, no, I totally, I totally agree with you and it's it's a tough balance because, like, we want to have a social media presence because we know it helps build our podcast and it helps build our business, but at the same time, it's like how much is enough? Like how much do we do you need to be doing? And that's why I love podcasting so much is because it's an intimate discussion in people's ears and, like, I've listened to your some of your episodes and I love the conversations you're having with people and it feels very intimate where social media feels like very open, you like something, people see that you liked it, or you leave a comment and people see your comment, and so I think podcasting is just a great way to help people, to support people, to give value. Yeah, I'd much rather just be on podcasts than social media.
Speaker 1:Well, you're on a podcast now and obviously, if you ever want to come back, you will be invited.
Speaker 2:Oh, thanks.
Speaker 1:But and I think you're right the one thing that I love also about podcasts, and one of my clients not too long ago said you know, steve, I really like when you talk about blank, but I have no interest in blank. So I skipped those episodes and there was almost like a look at, like looking down and like what do I care? You don't relate to that, what do I care? You don't need to relate to everything. This is my podcast, it's a personal thing for me and I think that when you say that coaching and the counseling stuff, people see it, maybe resonate and maybe turn off people.
Speaker 1:Well, I tell people the same thing that I've said a long time ago I'm a Howard Stern fan, and when I don't like what Howard is saying or he's pushing it too hard, I change the channel. I don't need to complain, I don't need to get upset, I just changed the channel. And it's the same thing with social media. If you don't like what's there or you feel like the comparison gremlins, come in, unfollow them. It's not like, oh my God, you're a horrible human being. It's a good thing to do in order to keep yourself sane. But that's why, when you said, oh, I'm not here to, honestly, I tell people this podcast is for me really. I mean, it's like I have a good time and if people don't like it, well, they don't have to listen. There's thousands of podcasts. There's Lisa and there's other people and I always tell people go somewhere else. It's okay, it's not personal to me.
Speaker 2:I'm not everyone's cup of tea, and that's okay, right, I'm not everyone's cup of tea, and that's okay, right, yeah, no, I love that and I think that's wise. That's so true. You're right, we can't be everybody's cup of tea. I mean, we just can't. So I love it. You just do what lights you up and what interests you, and there you go.
Speaker 1:That's awesome. Someone once said, well, why don't you do one on child and some mental health stuff? I'm a child and family specialist. That's actually my training. I have no interest in doing that. And people are like, oh well, you're not interested in kids. I say no, I have my own kids and I coach kids, but I'm not interested in doing that and that's not something that I'm going to do. And it's not like, oh my God, I don't need the help. It's just not interesting to me.
Speaker 2:Right, yeah, yeah. And, like you said, there's plenty of other podcasts out there that will talk about that and do a lot around that topic. I'm sure there's a specific podcast just for that. I don't know when I'm talking my head, but I'm sure it exists.
Speaker 1:And you know, one of the things that I want to come back to is that I remember, like I've been following you on Instagram, I've been listening to your podcast. I remember at one point, health and fitness were a big part of what you were saying, and then I think that you also had another podcast for a short while that you also had that I also listened to.
Speaker 2:Thanks.
Speaker 1:And so I go back to what maybe is the root what makes someone decide one day, you know what? I'm going to be a therapist. I'm going to go and become a therapist. This is important to me. So maybe, getting back to the root of how did you start off in this field?
Speaker 2:Yeah. So, oh gosh, I kind of forgot about my prior career to being a therapist, and I have a master's degree in public health health education and promotion. And that's what I originally went to grad school for was to help people with health and wellness and fitness, and it's been a passion of mine since, gosh, I mean for the past 20, how long am I? 25 years it's been something that I do and love health and fitness. So when I first looked at my career, I first started out, before I even got into health and fitness, I was in sports marketing. I first worked for the Tour DuPont as an intern, which was a cycling race here in the States, and that was when Lance Armstrong became Lance Armstrong. If you guys remember that, that was 96, I think. And then from there I went and worked for the Goodwill Games in Atlanta and then I went and worked for World Championship Wrestling of all things. I worked in professional wrestling for a little bit and that's when I realized, like what am I doing with my life? How did I get here? Really, I was like, how did I get here and knew that I wanted to go back to school and, like I said, health and fitness, wellness, was a big passion of mine, and so that's what I did.
Speaker 2:I came to the University of South Carolina and got my master's in public health, and then I worked in health promotion and education and was working at a hospital in a health program, and one of the things that I did was I would meet with people and help them kind of make a plan for their health and wellness. And really what had me realize there was more to it than just telling them to walk on the treadmill and eat more vegetables Don't get me wrong, that's not everything but was they were coming from this place of. They were depressed, like they needed more help than me just sitting there and talking to them about they couldn't even take action because they were so depressed Like it was hard for them to even have motivation to get up and do these things. So that's when I realized like wow, there's really more going on here and I wanted to learn more about I wanted to help people more than just giving them a plan or giving them this wellness plan. And that's also when I was going through my own stuff with my boyfriend and I went to counseling and realized I was depressed in myself. And so the things that I learned in therapy. I was like, man, this is awesome.
Speaker 2:I came out of that months later a different person and I wanted to do that. I wanted to help other people in that way. So that's really when I decided to go back to school and I was like I'm going back to school, and Billy was like, again, I'm like, are you really You're going to do this? And I was like, yeah, I think this is my calling. I love helping people. I want to be able to help them on a deeper level, and so that's how I got into it, and I'm a marriage and family therapist In our program. We had a choice between LPC and LMFT.
Speaker 1:What does those initials mean?
Speaker 2:Oh, licensed professional counselor and licensed marriage and family therapist.
Speaker 1:Sorry, just want to make sure because sometimes people don't know that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, and I just want to make sure because sometimes people don't know that. Yeah, yeah, and I just have always been fascinated with family dynamics and systems. And you know, as a kid I remember like being in the room and watching what was going on, the dynamics, not really knowing that's what I was doing, but trying to understand relationships in the room and why people were doing what they did and why when one person would say something, the other person would respond that way, but then the other person didn't, like I was just fascinated by. I was one of those kids that was like just paying attention, like I was always looking around, like okay, that was an interesting interaction, but I didn't really know that's what I was doing. So for me, in a session, it's easy for me to notice like something just happened. When he or she said that you know what's going on inside of you right now, my husband says I'm nosy. I say I'm curious, but he's probably right, it's just personality. I want to know what's going on. And so becoming a marriage and family therapist was just I knew I was going to go in that direction and I've had all kinds of different jobs.
Speaker 2:I worked at a college counseling center. I've worked in addictions and recovery. I've worked, like I said, for the past I don't know it's been longer than 10 years. I work for a military branch where I help families and soldiers you know, pre and post deployment kind of reintegrate, get back to a new normal, new normal life, whatever that looks like for them. I do a lot of assessing and referring of, like, what's going on with the soldier, what do they need, work with a lot of young soldiers who don't know what they need. So, yeah, I mean I feel very lucky and blessed to do this work. And then I decided to start the podcast a couple of years ago because, steve, what's your license? I forget. Are you LPC?
Speaker 1:I am an LMHC.
Speaker 2:Okay, so LMHC. So for those that don't know, every couple of years to renew our licenses, we have to have a certain amount of continuing education under our belt. And I was at a conference one year and I was like I'm going to be sitting in this chair for eight hours and I'm just going to be sitting here. And it was driving me crazy and also realized, looking around the room, all the millennials were on their phones. All of us Gen Xers were like talking to each other, and the master therapists, who were like 60 plus, had all their notepads out and their colored pens and they were taking notes. And I just thought like wow, our profession is so unique and it's evolving and we have all these different generations. But what really struck me was that the millennials were on their phones and I thought are they going to pay attention to the speakers? Are they just going to be on their phones the whole time? And that's when I was like, huh, wouldn't it be cool if we could get these speakers in our earbuds and I could be walking around Charleston right now instead of sitting in this chair for eight hours? And that's when the idea hit me, like well, why can't you start a continuing education program via podcasting. So that was when the idea was born.
Speaker 2:And also I don't know about you, steve, but in the work that we do, we love what we do, but I'm speaking for myself. I love what I do, but I also want a new challenge every now and then. And it's one thing to go and get a new certification or get certified in a new thing, but we also have these other gifts and skills and talents that we might want to pursue, and I knew that I wanted to try something different and I just thought I want to start a podcast. I want to take my skill set and I love interviewing people. I mean, I do that in my job. I ask questions all the time. So, man, what if I just was an interviewer and I found really cool therapists or people in the counseling world doing cool things and I could talk to them and offer this value to our peers and colleagues? And so, yeah, I just I mean how I got here?
Speaker 1:Well, so many things that I want to say. First of all, I already loved you, and now that you've told me you work for WCW, I'm a wrestling fan, so now I'm marking out for you, so just saying that.
Speaker 2:Who's your favorite wrestler of all time?
Speaker 1:Being Canadian, I got to go with Bret the Hitman Hart. There's a lot of different wrestlers that I've admired, from Stone Cold Steve Austin I think that I really like nowadays Randy Orton, even though he's injured right now, but I'm a big mark for wrestling. I can talk about wrestling for hours on end because that's my go-to for brainless work.
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 1:And that's what I mean. You sit there and you just sit there. I really like the work Roman Reigns does, but I also turn off the TV and I go to bed. Or if I'm watching it and I decide you know what this isn't for me, I can walk away from it and next week guess what? I'm going to still follow it and know what the storyline is. So I love wrestling. I can talk about that forever. But when you talk about challenges, I will tell you you and me are on the same page again.
Speaker 1:This is just great, because I worked for an agency for 15 years. During that time I had 16 different roles and that's no exaggeration. And since I've been in my private practice, I think I've done about six or seven different roles of different things that I do. I do work with the military. Give an hour and I enjoy that work tremendously. I work with first responders always enjoy doing that. I do my coaching, I do this podcast.
Speaker 1:I think that stagnation in our field leads us to not evolve and if people don't like that and other therapists don't like it you know how to reach me. It's on anywhere, Just reach me. But for me, I think that the stagnation is that if you sit there and say I know everything, I'm good, and I'm not talking about CEUs here, I'm just talking about in general, then you're probably selling you and your clients short, and that's just my view. So I agree with you wholeheartedly that we need a challenge and the CEU stuff is absolutely great. For those of you who haven't listened to Lisa's podcast, please go ahead and listen. You can go get your CUs on her website. I know that she has a new CU acquisition way. I can't remember all the, but I'll put that in the show notes for sure.
Speaker 2:Yeah, thanks.
Speaker 1:And I remember us having also that private conversation when you talked to me. I know you may not remember, but you said you know things change when you turn 40.
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 1:So thinking about the evolution and getting to know different things, how about you tell us more about that?
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I can't. I'm like kicking myself. I can't remember more of our conversation.
Speaker 1:I feel horrible about that because man like that. Just I'm sorry Now remember I'm the fan here, you don't need to remember I'm the fan here. Okay, Thanks, so fan here.
Speaker 2:You don't need to remember I'm the fan here, okay, thanks. So yeah, when I turned 40, oh man, like I had a mini midlife crisis and my kids were pretty young. They were, let's see, five and three. So I was kind of like all in as a mom and I in the process, when your kids are little like that, and you're all in and they're so and I say this with love like they're just so needy because they're five and three and you have to be there for them, I felt like I was losing quite a bit of myself and all of that. And you know, when you consider that young too, with your marriage, you know you're so focused on raising kids and it's like two ships in the night sometimes, like you're and I was working different jobs.
Speaker 2:At that point I hadn't started working. Wait, no, I had started working for the military, I think at that point I had, but it was a very demanding schedule. I worked a lot of weekends. You know, I just kind of felt. I felt burnt out and I felt overwhelmed and I went through this crisis. And that's when I hired my life coach, really, because he was the one that helped me kind of make a plan for, like what is most important to you and how are you going to? Because you have to find the joy. If you don't find the joy, you're going to be miserable in all the things. And so working with him, like I said, was probably the best thing for me at 40.
Speaker 2:But I think it was not knowing. I did a couple of things, and that's I didn't. I didn't have many friends, many women friends, relationships with family members were probably. They were strained. I was just stressed like all the time, and I found myself wanting to change everything. Like I was like do I change my career? What do I do? I thought it was changing my career and really no, it was just prioritizing my values and making sure that I was living them out. And I don't know. I keep saying this over and over again, but it really was such an eye-opening experience for me to look at what is important, what I say is important and actually what I'm doing, and I had to find a way to reconcile all of that and that's it.
Speaker 2:So when I say midlife crisis, it can happen. For some people it happens like mid-30s. For some people it happens like mid thirties, for some people it happens closer to 50. But I do think it's a phenomenon that a lot of us go through and it looks different for everybody. But for me, at 40 is really when it hit, and other things too like my body was changing, my skin was changing, like oh, it was just like this overwhelming like oh.
Speaker 2:Like aging is a weird thing. Social media doesn't help, because you see women who are my age and it's like, well, what are they doing? Is that really their skin? Are they injecting things? And is that what I need to do, you know? So it's like all of this stuff. So it was quite a time. Quite a time and I will say that going, because that was when I turned 40 and I'm 49 now. Quite a time. And I will say that going cause that was when I turned 40 and I'm 49 now. So going into 50, I still have some of that stuff, but I've accepted it. You know, my husband always says getting older I mean it's better than the alternative, right, like not being here. So I have to. I'm like you're right. And then the girls got older and things got a little bit easier. I just, I just have to go through it, and I think people try to do it alone in a silo.
Speaker 1:And that's exactly what I was doing.
Speaker 2:And it's hard. You have to have a support, you have to have a network and if you don't have that, then find a therapist, find a coach and get started right. At least you have somebody that can listen to you, you know who's not judgmental and who can, who can help, and that's what I did at 40. And then you know know, I had a life coach and then at, like I want to say, before the pandemic, a couple years before the pandemic, I actually went back to a therapist because I was having some stuff from my childhood kind of show up in my marriage again and I wanted to kind of like work on that before it got to be to this place of resentment and frustration. So therapy helped me with that kind of process some stuff about my childhood and my parents and divorce and everything. So I think, like I said, I go back to just being aware of your stuff and knowing when you need to talk to somebody and knowing when your thoughts aren't serving you. That's when it's most important to get some support and some help.
Speaker 2:Don't wait until you're in the state of it's most important to get some support and some help. Don't wait until you're in the state of you don't want to get out of bed in the morning. You've lost interest in things that you used to love to do. Recognize that. Get in there before it's you. You are dealing with a depressive episode or something you know.
Speaker 1:Well, you know, one of the things that I kind of go back to, and this is you know, in the last few years, when we are in our 20s and our 30s, I call that our hyper-independent stage. We do everything on our own, we don't need anyone. So we sometimes lose sight of our friends, we lose sight of, maybe, our family, we lose sight of other things that are important to us, because either if you have young kids, that's great, but sometimes it's also your job, or sometimes it's other stuff going on in your life and you just keep it dueling that, and hyper-independence is also a form of trauma. When people have that and I'm not saying that you're traumatized, I'm not here to do your therapy but at the same time, I think that that's something that in westernized cultures we value a 27-year-old who does it all and doesn't need help and in fact I don't know of anyone who doesn't need help and I think that in our 40s we just realized our body's just changing. Our bodies are not able to follow.
Speaker 1:We talk a lot about women going through that and menopause being one of those things that women get really emphasized. I think guys do too. I just think it's a different way because, you know, I could run a lot faster when I was younger, I could lift a lot more, and my kids are getting older and they're like a different demand, so they're no longer picking them up every two seconds. It's a. It's a demand of I need a taxi here, and I need a taxi there and I need a taxi here. So I think that it's recognizing both men and women. I'm not trying to take away what you're saying, obviously, lisa. I hope you know that. Oh, yeah, no, I totally get what you're saying.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I agree with you, yeah.
Speaker 1:I think that that's why, for me, when you turn 40, it affects your work, it affects your life and did it bring any other changes, whether it is looking at your values or even in your work and your process that you do your work?
Speaker 2:Probably a little bit more patient with people at my work, you know. Just more patient, not so much trying to, because in the work I do I get a lot of folks in the command wanting somebody fixed really fast because they're going on deployment and just saying I know you want this person in a better place, but we have to let this person go through what they're going through and meet them where they're at. I can't, we can't, put a bandaid on this Like it's. It's deeper than that or it's more to it than that. So I think, just being more patient, I have, I think, a better, more confidence in my skillset than I did and helping people, knowing maybe there's something about being in this work for a while that you just have a sense, like, of what the person really needs, versus when you're new to it.
Speaker 2:You can kind of see stuff a little bit quicker, like if there's addiction or substance abuse issues or trauma. You know you're, I think I'm a little bit, but at the same time I'm not like trying to get that person into a treatment. It's like just continue to meet them where they're at but recognize like they haven't maybe hit their bottom yet in the bottom might be coming. So how do I, how do I support them in that? Because you can't, you can't like jump in front of the bullet for them, right, like because then that's enabling or then that's our own stuff kind of kicking in. So, yeah, I think in my 40s, almost 50s, I recognize that and just kind of honor that and I don't feel so like I have to fix it for people, maybe like I did before.
Speaker 1:Well, I think that that's what changes. I think at one point, therapists realized that people come in with their problems. You don't need to fix it in two to three weeks or two to three sessions, depending on how often you see the person. And getting in our forties, we're like no, we got to respect the process, and I think that that's the word that comes to mind when you were talking about all that and the confidence.
Speaker 1:You know what's that magic number? 10,000 hours to master any task. So I'm still about 9,000 something hours away from mastering podcasts. So I'm going to be working on that for a while, but ultimately, I think that it has to do with we don't feel like an imposter as much, I think. I think my forties brought me to wait a minute. I'm, I was always the youngest everywhere I went, but once I hit my forties, I realized there's a lot of people that are younger than me and I'm getting to be the one who's the oldest and I don't know if that changed for you or that helped. But I think that there is also a process where we can help mentor other people and like, oh wow, I know my shit.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I love that. That's actually one a little bit of my audience I'm starting to learn. Are those up and coming therapists? Cause I get I've gotten some folks to reach out to me on Instagram saying I'm just starting out in the field or I'm in this, I'm in a program right now and I really like your show and and so I love that.
Speaker 2:You know I I may not have the energy for therapy anymore, but, man, we have to mentor these up and coming therapists because they need us and we we want to support people in their mental health and I feel like that's one way that we can continue to do that is by doing our podcast right and like supporting people with information and with letting them know that there's help out there. But also these up and coming therapists they might be in grad school, they might be thinking about going to grad school to become a therapist kind of letting them know what to expect as a therapist. And if that's you and you're thinking, do I want to be a therapist? Like Steve said in the very beginning, go get your own therapy, because you're gonna learn so much about well yourself and then the how therapy works and it's kind of cool you can like. Actually, it's kind of meta at that point, right like you're doing your own therapy and you're learning about the process of therapy and you might be taking notes on what kind of therapist you want to be as you are going through through that process.
Speaker 2:So, yeah, I guess we are kind of the older folks now. That is a good point. I didn't really think about that. But yeah, sometimes I wake up I'm like who am I to be 50? Like what I'm gonna be? Like how did I get here? Like oh gosh.
Speaker 1:Well, what's that? What's that meme that I see all the time, like when I, oh, when I'm in my 40s or 50ifties, I'm going to have my click together. No, no, no, absolutely not. We're still working on it. We're a little better than we used to be, but I think that the other part too is that, and you can tell me what you think, but I think that at this point in my life I don't care about being vulnerable.
Speaker 2:Sure.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and when I was in my twenties or thirties, vulnerability. I'm not doing that and for those who are upset, I'm going to put the explicit on my podcast. But ultimately that's what I mean is that when I got in my 40s I'm like I'm going to be vulnerable. What do I care? So when younger therapists come to me and they talk about the difficulties or whatever they want to talk about, I'm fully vulnerable and they're like wow, and I said I wish other therapists were like that with me when I was kind of like coming up, because therapists like to know that they know everything and what I know fits in a thimble.
Speaker 1:I just know nothing in this life and the older I get, the more I realize I know nothing. So I think that vulnerability plays a factor and I like to balance it out. I have, you know, we do supervision and there's three or four individuals that do group supervision who are in their sixties, one of them's in the seventies, and so I get the old guard kind of like teaching me how to mentor properly, because they still mentor me in many ways and I got so I can help the younger folks get to where they need to be in their therapy, because I think I wish I had someone that I trusted like that. I had one mentor that I talk about who was like that, and he would always remind me stop trying to be someone you're not yeah.
Speaker 1:You know, if you don't know something, say I don't know.
Speaker 2:Those are the magic words and I always remember I find the most successful of my clients. If you were to ask how did I help the most, it was like, well, she just listened and she just was nonjudgmental and she just helped me kind of like make sense of it all. So that, to me, is the biggest. The biggest compliment is the relationship that you can build in a therapeutic environment or in a coaching environment. It's just that's the best. And having those mentors is so important. I mean, I think about when I was first starting out in the field. I had had these three female therapists that they were like my fairy godmothers almost, and they were all like each one of them was so unique and so different but they each taught me something different and they were so different themselves, like one was more conservative and one was more liberal, and then, you know, another one was a mom with younger kids. Like it was just, and they all were fabulous.
Speaker 2:I also had a male, my supervisor, my clinical supervisor. He was amazing, like that guy. I thought he could walk on water but he was human and I remember, like this time when I saw him do something that I was like what was that? You know, he was like well, I tried it and it didn't work, so we're just gonna try something different. And he didn't let it take him down. He was actually excited by it. You know, he's like we'll try something different next time and his clients were excited about it.
Speaker 2:So, yeah, I mean, having good mentors is, like, so important. You gotta have a bunch of them. You gotta and put yourself out there and don't be afraid to be vulnerable. Yeah, I think vulnerability so many people are scared of being vulnerable and I think mainly because in the past when they've been vulnerable, maybe they got hurt and they weren't able to, maybe they didn't have the skills yet to handle what happens when you're vulnerable with somebody and you don't like how it turns out. You know, or you feel you feel embarrassed, or you feel ashamed. That's just something that takes time and you have to practice, like shifting how you're going to let things, how you're going to react and respond to things. So, yeah, and I like to say that actually one of my podcast guests she says this. I'm pointing that way like cause it was a few episodes back.
Speaker 1:Oh, there's the podcast, I can see it.
Speaker 2:She said that and I'm thinking about this like failure is not a tombstone, it's a milestone. And so you know, we can only I mean not only, but a lot of people see, and I was just telling my daughter this the other day like failure is not the end. Failure is like you're going to learn from it, you're going to grow, you're going to learn, you're going to move forward, you're not going to let it take you down and have you down on the floor for months on end. But you got to have somebody in your life tell you that, because if you don't, you don't know that, then that's how you're going to see failure.
Speaker 1:And it's like you got to have setbacks, you got to have suffering, because it helps. You know what? You a linear process and I always like that statement and realizing that you can get. And for me, when I talk about mentorship, I talked about maybe the older generation helping me out, but younger generations also help me on different levels and I think that mentorship is sometimes attached to age. I think that you can learn from anyone.
Speaker 1:One of the things I do after when a client terminates with me, I usually go for a coffee or something and obviously on me and then say, okay, here's what you taught me in therapy. And they always love that because they're like, oh, I never had someone do that and I'm like I can't. I'm not a blank slate that knows everything, I'm just a guy learning from you too. So sometimes it's stuff that they're like, oh well, that's thank you, and they feel uncomfortable. But that vulnerability of saying that you taught me something has helped me tremendously with a whole lot of clientele and I think that that's important to remember. And age has nothing to do with it, because I think I can learn from a 16-year-old as much as I can learn from a 73-year-old. It's just going to be a different lesson.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's awesome, I like that yeah.
Speaker 1:So, speaking of vulnerability, I think podcasts are great for vulnerability For me. I have an editor who she's been editing since the beginning. She said you know, at the beginning I could see almost a robotic you going through it and now you're just yourself and there's a vulnerability and you just let it be. I don't know about how you feel about your podcast, but maybe you can talk about your podcast if you want to talk about the vulnerability we have there.
Speaker 2:Well, it's funny that you say that, because your podcast editor told me the same thing, because we shared a podcast editor at one point and I know she's told me the same thing in the beginning and if you go and listen to some of my beginning episodes it's so cringy, as my daughter says. I'm sure you can relate to that. But yeah, I think being vulnerable on it, not me.
Speaker 1:Mine was perfect, everything worked out.
Speaker 2:Everything was perfect. We would like to think that I know mine are horrible. I know they're horrible.
Speaker 1:I'm going to stop you for a second before you go on. I've listened to every single one of your podcasts.
Speaker 2:Really man.
Speaker 1:And it's not that it was horrible. I just felt that there was hi. My name is Lisa. I am a robot to survive this earth, Right, so I'm not trying to.
Speaker 2:No, I totally get it Not a.
Speaker 1:This here it's just, and I'm not trying to help you, no, I totally get it, not a diss here it's just a, and I'm the same way too, but I wanted to stop you. The content was good. It was just delivered in a non-personal way. I did the same thing when I started, oh yeah. So I don't think it's cringe as much as oh my God, that was a hard learning experience.
Speaker 2:Right, it was, and I don't that it takes about 100 episodes to really find your voice.
Speaker 1:Oh shoot, I'm up to 76.
Speaker 2:No, but you found your voice, no no, no, you see, you found your voice much sooner than I did, because you perhaps weren't as worried about being vulnerable. Because that was tough for me, being vulnerable, and I still have a tough time with that. I'm about to record an intro for my next episode. And how much do I share? How much do I let people in? Do they really care to know about volleyball? Do they do they care about my trip back home? And so I never know.
Speaker 2:And then I'm like, wait a minute, here I am once again trying to perform, instead of, just like I told you, do what lights me up and do share what I want to share and interview who I want to interview. So I have to remember that all the time, like it's okay to talk about these things and they can hit fast forward if they don't want to listen to it. So, yeah, I mean, being vulnerable is is tough and it's scary, and on a podcast too, because you hit record and you're like, check, check, we're recording now and I'm supposed to say something and it's just, it's weird, but it's, you just got to practice it. And so if you're thinking about starting a podcast, don't let that fear hold you back. You just got to start because you will get better If you stick with it. You'll get better. I mean you have to right or else you'll stop, and then you'll know it's not for you.
Speaker 1:Right, and I would say to you that a few months ago you came on and talked about your personal life and how things have shifted, and I can't remember the exact episode. I apologize and I remember listening to that and going I'm hearing Lisa, and not that I didn't hear you before that. I was like, oh my God, it's the Lisa. I spoke on the phone like a year ago.
Speaker 2:Very cool. Okay, that's good to know, that's good to know. Well, I appreciate you telling me that I need that feedback. I don't. I don't get feedback like that, and my husband doesn't listen to my show. He's like ah, so getting that feedback is really great, thanks.
Speaker 1:Again, this is people say it's a plug. It's not a plug. I really have listened to every episode. I have listened for a couple of years and I've truly, truly enjoyed your podcast. But how about? What's the name of your podcast? How do people find you Stuff like that?
Speaker 2:Sure, well, it's called the Therapy Show with Lisa Mustard, and my website is usually just my name lisamustardcom. But I'm having to redo the website because I had some major issues with it two weeks ago. So we are in the process of, like, redoing the website. We're going to do a little bit of a rebranding. The name will stay the same, it's just going to look a little bit different. So right now, if people want to listen to my show, you can go to Apple Podcasts, you can go to Spotify Stitcher, my Libsyn feed and you can listen to the show there.
Speaker 1:It's been an hour and went by so fast. Yeah, into the show there. It's been an hour and went by so fast. Yeah, it did.
Speaker 2:That's what happens when you kind of fandom someone I can't believe you're fandom, I mean that's just. It's so weird to me, like to have a fan like that. I mean, I don't know, thanks, thanks for being my fan, steve. I'm so appreciative, like that just makes me blush, like.
Speaker 1:I didn't know and go to the video to see the blushing because actually I didn't see it at the beginning, but I definitely see it now yeah, it's happening now like but.
Speaker 1:But I think that that's what I want. Like again, I want people to reach out to you, whether it's for coaching, whether it is your podcast and stuff like that, because I really feel from the bottom of my heart how much I have learned from that podcast. And there's stuff that you had someone on I can't remember when it was talked about college counseling and all that. I listened to it. I learned a few things. It wasn't my cup of tea and it's not against. Your interview was great, but go to podcasts and learn stuff Sometimes. You know that's what I really enjoyed from yours, so I wanted to give you that I don't know credit or whatever you want to call it. Thank you.
Speaker 1:How else would people try to reach you besides your website?
Speaker 2:Well, I'm on Instagram. I'm on Facebook. My email you can always email me, which would be hello at lisamustardcom. Let me my email. You can always email me, which would be hello at lisa mustardcom. Let me see, it's probably probably the best way.
Speaker 1:It's email is probably the best, but you can also find me on instagram well, I hope that people go reach out to you, lisa, and I will remain a fan, but I also hope that we remain friends as well, well, you need to come on my show.
Speaker 2:I think we need to set that up. I would love to have you come on and share about your podcast and everything. That would be great.
Speaker 1:It would be a true honor, so I appreciate that, yeah, so thank you very much, and I'll talk to you soon. Well, this concludes Episode 75 of Finding your Way Through Therapy. Lisa Mustard, thank you, thank you, thank you. I can't tell you how much I enjoyed our interview, and I hope you did, too. Tell you how much I enjoyed our interview, and I hope you did too. Episode 76 is going to be on a chapter of my book, and the chapter is trauma and PTSD are not the same, so I hope you join me then. Please like, subscribe or follow this podcast on your favorite platform. A glowing review is always helpful and, as a reminder, this podcast is for information, educational and entertainment purposes. If you are struggling with a mental health or substance abuse issue, please reach out to a professional counselor or therapist for consultation.
