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Finding Your Way Through Therapy
Join Steve Bisson, LMHC as he unravels the complexities of therapy and counseling. Engage in straightforward dialogues, enriched with insights from special guests sharing a like-minded perspective. Each episode presents valuable, easy-to-digest information designed to help you perceive therapy, and those who partake in it, in a grounding, relatable manner.
Finding Your Way Through Therapy
E.174 Overcoming Children's Fear of Dogs: Insights from Stefani Cohen
Unlock the secrets to building a fearless future for your children with our inspiring guest, Stefani Cohen. A true authority in family dynamics and stress-positive parenting, Stefani shares her decades of wisdom and insight into overcoming children's fear of dogs. Drawing from her book, "Overcoming Your Child's Fear of Dogs," she unveils groundbreaking strategies like systematic desensitization and experiential exposure therapy. With heartwarming anecdotes about her late canine companion Fozzie and her new dog Winnie, Stefni illustrates how dogs play a vital role in her therapeutic work and community outreach.
Venture into the mechanics of phobia treatment with Stefani as we dissect the importance of creating a safe and trustworthy environment for those facing their fears. The journey varies for everyone, and Stefani emphasizes the necessity of adapting to the client's pace without pressure. Through detailed real-life case studies, learn how children and adults alike can confront their fears, whether it's dogs, spiders, or other phobias. Discover the tailored methodologies that ensure genuine progress and the emotional breakthroughs that come from facing these fears head-on.
Finally, embrace the concept of meeting people where they're at, as Stefani shares her unique approach to therapy. From innovative session settings to the pivotal use of a fear scale, she stresses the importance of personalization in overcoming anxiety. As we highlight her contributions, including a companion workbook co-authored with her daughter, we celebrate the powerful impact of her work in guiding families toward a harmonious relationship with their canine companions.
Go check out her activity book at: https://www.amazon.com/Overcoming-Your-Childs-Step-Step/dp/1662900198
Get her book at this link: https://a.co/d/8F7yAQ3
Book a session on her website: https://overcomefearofdogs.com/
Freed AI converts conversations into SOAP note.Use code Steve50 for $50 off the 1st month!
Disclaimer: This post contains affiliate links. If you make a purchase, I may receive a commission at no extra cost to you.
Hi and welcome to Finding your Way Through Therapy. A proud member of the PsychCraft Network, the goal of this podcast is to demystify therapy, what can happen in therapy and the wide array of conversations you can have in and about therapy Through personal experiences. Guests will talk about therapy, their experiences with it and how psychology and therapy are present in many places in their lives, with lots of authenticity and a touch of humor. Here is your host, steve Bisson.
Speaker 2:Hello, nous sommes en on. We are on air. You can see the sign behind me if you're on YouTube. If not, I'm just pointing at nothing. According to those on the pod and listening to just the audio of the podcast, I'm Steve Bissau. You haven't listened to episode 173. Please go back and listen to it. Abby Westgate was an amazing guest, had a lot of insight in regards to the work she does, as well as the work she used to do in regards to being a UK sergeant in the police. But it was a good interview.
Speaker 2:Episode 174 will be with Stephanie Cohen. Stephanie Cohen contacted me and she wanted to be on the podcast. I was so excited to have her because it's a little bit of a different thing. She's worked with families for over 30 years and stress positive parenting strategies. Over the years, she helped a lot of kids face their fear of dogs and she put it a few years ago in a book called Overcoming your Child's Fear of Dogs. In addition to the book, she helps the parents, kind of like, do the right thing in order to change that and because sometimes it's not good and she's going to talk about systematic desensitization, among other things, stay tuned to know what that is Together with her. She has a dog that helps her out now and together with her dog she has done presentations at schools, scout troops, humane education and even at dog places, so that people stop being fearful of dogs.
Speaker 2:But here is the interview. But first a word from our sponsor, getfreeai. Yes, you've heard me talk about it previously in other episodes, but I'm going to talk about it again, because get freeai is just a great service. Imagine being able to pay attention to your clients all the time, instead of writing notes and making sure that the note's going to sound good and how are you going to write that note, and things like that. Getfreeai liberates you from making sure that you're writing what the client is saying, because it is keeping track of what you're saying and will create, after the end of every session, a progress note. But it goes above and beyond that. Not only does it create a progress note, it also gives you suggestions for goals. Goals gives you even a mental status if you've asked questions around that, as well as being able to write a letter for your client to know what you talked about. So that's the great, great thing. It saves me time, it saves me a lot of aggravation and it just speeds up the progress note process so well, and for $99 a month. I know that that's nothing. That's worth my time, that's worth my money, you know. The best part of it too is that if you want to go and put in the code Steve 50 when you get the service at the checkout code is Steve 50 you get $50 off your first month and if you get a whole year, you save a whole 10% for the whole year. So again, steve50 at checkout for getfreeai will give you $50 off for the first month and, like I said, get a full year, get 10% off, get free from writing notes, get free from always scribbling while you're talking to a client and just paying attention to your client. So they went out, you went out, everybody wins and I think that this is the greatest thing. And if you're up to a point where you got to change the treatment plan, well, the goals are generated for you. So get free AI code Steve 50 to save $50 on your first month.
Speaker 2:Well, hi everyone and welcome to episode 174 of Finding your Way Through Therapy. Very excited, I've been trying to connect with the following guests for a while now, and then we have scheduling conflicts and everything else. But she has a book out. It's been out for a while and I know that she told me that there's another one coming out here. It is for you guys to see it your child's fears of dogs. I'll be perfectly honest with you. It should say overcoming your fear of dogs, but uh, I'm sure that we'll bring that up during our conversation. But a very, very helpful book. As a therapist, I found it very interesting. As a human being who has a family member who's scared of dogs Fascinating stuff. So, stephanie Cohen, welcome to Finding your Way Through Therapy.
Speaker 3:Thank you Really, really happy to be here.
Speaker 2:I was going to joke with you. I don't know where Fozzie is, but I was expecting Fozzie to be here. But Fozzie is right.
Speaker 3:That would be very interesting, because Fozzie is no longer in this world.
Speaker 2:Oh, I'm sorry.
Speaker 3:Yeah, but I have a new furry friend the same breed. Her name is Winnie. And right now, fortunately, she's sleeping, but if she hears my husband come home, you will hear her bark.
Speaker 2:All right. Well, I'm sorry for Fozzie. I'm sorry for the loss. It's losing a family member, I get that. It is. I'm sorry for the loss. It's losing a family member, I get that, and the reason why I mentioned Fozzie was her. She talks about it across her book.
Speaker 3:Yeah, he was a big part of it. He really was.
Speaker 2:And seemed like a good dog. So I'm sorry for your loss. I always, whenever someone loses a dog or a cat that they've been attached to for over a year, I say it's a family member who just passed away.
Speaker 3:So You're absolutely right.
Speaker 2:Thank you I say it's a family member who just passed away. So you're absolutely right, thank you. So I guess we're doing grief counseling today, all joking aside. You know, I know you a little bit because I read your book. We've exchanged a few times, so I'm going to turn around to you and say tell me a little bit about you and share it with my audience.
Speaker 3:Sure. So I am a licensed clinical social worker. I have a practice of working with families and children, many of them who have developmental delays or differences, and aside from that, over the years I've been very interested in incorporating animals into my practice. I found that when there's a dog laying next to you, being stroked, et cetera, a lot of times people are much more open to talking. But that aside, I became interested in, I say, xenophobia I think it's actually xenophobia, it's Greek, but I'm going with xenophobia, the fear of dogs.
Speaker 3:A number of years ago my daughter, becky, age five, announced she was afraid of dogs and she would no longer go to my mother's house who had a lovely dog, buley. And I did not understand it at all. She had nothing had happened to her that was negative. We loved animals, none of us were afraid. I just didn't get it. And that became my journey to try to figure out how to help her. There were no resources. My sister had a lovely dog named Casey. We had gone to visit her out in California and Becky was afraid of the dog and intuitively she and I helped Becky feel in control and to feel safe. And after the five-day visit she was much more comfortable with dogs and after that we thought about it, we figured out, kind of how we had helped her organically.
Speaker 3:And then just in my regular practice or day-to-day life, when I would come across people who were nervous around dogs, I would start to do some of these things that I outline in the protocol. And then one day I don't know if my sister said it to me, but I said you know what? I have something here and I really really want to share it with people because, as you know, you have a loved one who's afraid of dogs. It really really impacts not only the person but the entire family. So a lot of times interviewers will say what is your regret? My one regret is that I did not do this 20 years ago. I did it, but I should have done it a long time ago. So that's my advice to people Just do it.
Speaker 2:Well, you know, it's not a regret if it's a lesson learned Okay.
Speaker 3:I like that.
Speaker 2:Just for the record. Yeah, no, you're right, you're right.
Speaker 3:What lessons did I learn? Just do it.
Speaker 2:Because I think that regrets imply bad stuff. And to me I tell people it comes from an artist in Quebec. She had a couple of hits in the 60s, then she got lobotomized and she came back right before she passed away and my grandmother loved her and one of her last interviews they asked her do you have any regrets? She's like no, I only have lessons learned and I'm still learning. And I always keep that in mind because I think regrets are heavy to handle because you can't do anything about it. When you say lessons learned, you kind of let go of what you couldn't control.
Speaker 3:I'm going to remember that that's very helpful, thank you.
Speaker 2:I want to make sure I said that because I don't want you to have any regrets.
Speaker 3:Thank you.
Speaker 2:Because it's a really good book. I think it's it's going to be helpful. And you know my, my, my girlfriend, has a pit bull and a lot of people are like, aren't you scared, I'm like, of a pit bull, and especially her? No, not at all whatsoever. You're like, well, what if? And like what if? I'll deal with, what if when it happens. You know it's like it's again the stuff that people are just stuck on with dogs, in my opinion.
Speaker 3:So it's again the stuff that people are just stuck on with dogs. In my opinion, right right, yeah, I find that we're afraid of things we don't understand, so there's a big educational piece. I try to help people learn about dogs when I work with kids. I call these dog lessons, so that when you look at a dog and their body language, and probably when you look at your girlfriend's dog, at a dog and their body language, and probably when you look at your girlfriend's dog, you see a relaxed dog, friendly, whatever, um, as opposed to another dog who might not be so safe to interact with right and it you, you learn, you know, as the book talks about, look for some of the behaviors, the tenseness of the dog and so on and so forth, and you don't.
Speaker 2:You know, you don't need to be a genius to know that, just need to pay attention. But before we go more on the book, you know there's a standard question on finding your way through therapy for everyone that comes in and is have you ever been in therapy? So that is your question right.
Speaker 3:Yes, I have been in therapy. I kind of feel like every day is therapy, but I was in official formal therapy right after I got out of college and I had had some loss and never really dealt with it while I was at college. I mean full disclosure here. I guess I was dealing with it, but I was acting out and dealing with it in the not healthy way as one does sometimes, and um and then there I found myself, uh, in New York City, going the wrong way towards an escalator. Like I was preoccupied, I was in a fog, I was depressed and I thought this is not safe.
Speaker 3:I'm trying to think this was before I went to social work school, actually, and I thought this is not safe. I'm trying to think this was before I went to social work school actually, and I thought you know what I need help? And I made the call and I wasn't in all that long about a year but it was incredibly helpful and I learned a lot. And then I think I also not surprising, I come from a slightly turbulent family upbringing. So I went to social work school to try to understand it in a little bit.
Speaker 2:Did you figure it out yet?
Speaker 3:No.
Speaker 2:All right.
Speaker 3:I mean, I'm being facetious there, but the truth of the matter is, as you said, there's always something to learn, but I reparented myself as I parented my kids, which was incredibly healing. I did it very differently.
Speaker 2:The self-healing process is so important. That's what therapy really is about having a place where you can talk about it openly, so that you can heal yourself. Because you know something I probably repeat at every single podcast I have and I'm going to say until people believe me, I don't fix anyone. I'll give you good tricks, I'll give you ideas of what to do, but I've never fixed a human being in my life. I'm still. I'm still fucked up and I'm still working on fixing myself. So you know like I want to get back to the book, because you know you talked a little bit about how you got interested in you know, sinophobia, how?
Speaker 3:we well, let's call it sinophobia the grammar police come after us, so what?
Speaker 2:yeah yeah you know what your eye is an excuse. That's my second language, so, okay, I just tell people I have that excuse in my back pocket anytime I need it. Um, but you know I, you know how do you help people in therapy with this, because you know, like I read the book and you know I get systematic desensitization, but I think that people always skip steps when they're doing that stuff. Right, how do you help people in therapy understand all this stuff and help them get to where they need to be?
Speaker 3:Okay. So with this kind of therapy, the first thing I do is establish trust with the person without a dog, because when people, when people who are afraid, see a dog, they immediately, you know, fight or flight is triggered. I mean, it's a spectrum Some people are mildly afraid and some are so panicked that they will endanger themselves by running into the street to avoid passing a dog on a leash. So establish trust, because the client has to feel safe with me and to know that they will not be forced to do anything that they don't feel ready to do now. And then I say I'm going to tell you, I'm going to nudge you and cheer you and bug you, but you will not be forced. And I'm working with someone now and lovely, lovely dog, lovely woman, and she keeps saying what if the dog jumps on me? What if the dog bites me? And I know this dog will do neither. And I said you know what If she does? Not only am I going to give you all your money back, but I'm going to give you an extra $500.
Speaker 2:So you bribe your clients.
Speaker 3:I bribe my clients? Yeah, I motivate them, but the majority of this kind of therapy is done experientially exposure with a live dog, Right, and we go at the client's pace.
Speaker 3:We go as slow as we need to, or some people get right through it in one session, honestly, and others it takes a lot more I will be honest after five or six, if I don't feel like there's movement, I will really pause and say I think we should take a break because I don't think it's fair to keep going if we're not making enough progress or some progress.
Speaker 2:And I and I agree with you I think that what I, you know, what you mentioned about therapy, is so important. You know, what you need to do is a person who feels safe and trusts you will make progress, not because they want to, not because you want to, but because safe and why am I blanking on the other word right now, being safe and trustworthy is probably where people feel the best and that's what you're offering and that's important. Um, because people who have a fear of anything but let's, let's talk particularly of dogs right now, when you talk about dogs, I think that the problem is is that people are like, oh well, we'll fix that phobia and you know, I'm going to see dogs and all that, but no, ultimately, it's got to be done in trust, it's got to be done in a safe environment, it's got to be done with people who feel good and so on and so forth, and you cannot under emphasize that any type of fear has to be done in that environment.
Speaker 3:Yeah, you're so right about that, and my goal and I tell people this is I would love for you to love dogs, but my goal is just for you to be in proximity to a dog and not freaking out right.
Speaker 2:Well, that's what I tell people about spiders. Okay, I don't do the dog part, but I had a client of mine who, uh and um, I cannot shout her out because it's putting her out. Okay, she was afraid of spiders and there was a shabani house and there was some spiders and she was scared and I said, what are you gonna do when your husband's not home and what? I'm like, what's gonna happen? There's gonna be a spider, you know, and we talked about how to look at it. We looked at some online she's online with me, so we it and then eventually she sends me a picture of a splattered spider and she's like guess who did that on her own.
Speaker 2:I'm like when Not quite as good of exposure therapy as you, obviously, but nonetheless I think that that's an important part of making that environment so safe so that they can talk about that.
Speaker 3:Yes, 100%.
Speaker 2:You know what I love about your book, among many other things and again, you know she's not just for the record, anyone listening to this podcast. I'm not getting a dime from this, other than I really believe in the book, a lot of the things that I like and you can see it's worn, so it's not some like BS thing that I'm saying. You got questionnaires in here, but what's even more important for me is every chapter has at least one here we talked about this is a technique, but there's also it's like how did it occur in session with that individual? Can you speak more about these studies in your book? And maybe one of your favorites, maybe one that was more challenging or anything like?
Speaker 3:that, sure, sure. So some of the feedback that I've gotten from the book and I did include a bunch of vignettes and, like I've had one main case study but in addition, um, some examples of the kinds of they kids but who are afraid of dogs and how they came to be afraid, a lot of people that really resonated with them, because so many people think they're the only one struggling with this and that is not true at all. It's really, it's more common than than most people think. One that's not in the book, but my poster child for this is Taylor. I'm allowed to use her name.
Speaker 3:The first session she stood by her mother's car. She was eight and cried for 35 minutes. My sessions are 45, up to 45. And we kept nudging her to get a little closer, a little closer, a little closer, and she got within five feet of the dog. The dog, by the way, was laying on a blanket, as still as we could keep the dog. And that was the first session. She got five feet. And the next time, the next session, I said Taylor, I want you to remember this feeling because we got to get to it quicker so we can make some progress. And I think at that session.
Speaker 3:I have a certificate that I give them with some checklists like pet a dog, be near a dog. I think I've updated it since the book, but for children it's very motivating to be able to check some. That's it, to be able to check things off and the first one is just being near a dog. So everybody gets that one. And she moved through these sessions pretty quickly.
Speaker 3:She got very comfortable with Nico and the way I work is we start with a very calm, passive these are all well-behaved dogs but a very passive dog and then we move up to a little more active dog and then we have my dog and I always say once you've met Winnie you can graduate, because she's a more typical dog that your friend or relative might have. And then what happened was and you can relate to this with exposure therapy is I don't know if this was during COVID, I think, but then the winter came and she didn't see dogs and then after four months she saw a dog and was almost back at square one. So we gave her a couple of booster sessions and in no time she was doing really well with dogs. So was part of this question the challenges.
Speaker 2:If you want to. It's up to you. Which ones do you want to? It's up to you, which ones do you want to talk about? Because because I think that what you know, you you mentioned a few things I think that for non-therapists as well as therapists, what you got to remember to do with exposure, therapy or even in life, if you don't have a reward system, whether it's a certificate or anything else, you're not going to have improvement and it doesn't like.
Speaker 2:But I think people misunderstand it's like you're not going to have improvement and it doesn't have like. But I think people misunderstand it's like you don't need to say, all right, kids, we're going to eat at McDonald's every time you get close to a dog, because that's not a good reward system. I don't like to use food as a reward system, but using a reward system that works, you know and like good job getting a certificate, a sticker and even a. You know, a good job getting a certificate, a sticker and even a you know, a high five or something like that's awesome and overdoing it like almost a coach would. I think that it's important to realize that we have a role to play, to encourage.
Speaker 2:Like if my kids had a fear of dogs? They absolutely don't. If they got close to a dog, I would be like overly excited for them, almost almost character caricature, like why? Because that's what's going to make them like, oh, this is good. And remembering the reward system, I think is something people tend to forget, and I think that when my client texts me and said look what I did, I could have said, oh, I don't want to see that. Or but I said, no, that's a great job, see, you can do it.
Speaker 3:Positive reinforcement.
Speaker 2:And we need to put that in there, because systematic desensitization is useless without positive reinforcement.
Speaker 3:It's true. It's true and it's interesting because the reward for almost everyone is ultimately a feeling of relief. I worked with a woman she was probably in her 30s and she called me and she said I have a three-year-old who is starting to be afraid of dogs. But I'm afraid of dogs and I don't want to teach her to be afraid of dogs. So we went over Fozzie was with me then and the woman was able to, with a lot of cheering on, she was able to touch Fozzie with one finger and, do you know, she burst into tears, relief, and I mean I see that a lot. And what's interesting and I mean I see that a lot, and what's interesting and you know this is by facing this fear. It gives you so much confidence that you can do almost anything. So I try to link historically for my other clients that if they were able to go on a roller coaster but had been afraid, right, they can, they can do this too. So try to channel that, that bravery, that courage.
Speaker 2:You know, I think that that's the other part too, that I think you talk about positive reinforcement, that bravery is key. You know, the first thing I do would you know and I don't say it always in these words, but someone who shows up for therapy, I'm like is this your first time in therapy? And if it is the first time, like, but that took a lot of fucking guts to do so. And people are like, yeah, actually it did I role play on how hard it was to ask for help.
Speaker 3:And so if you answer the phone, it's really important to respond the way you do, which is yay, I'm glad you're here. I know that was hard.
Speaker 2:I was going to make a joke, stephanie. You said that before cell phones and answering machines, what are you? Were you like 110? You look fantastic. There's been. There's been a bit of a answering service for, uh, computers yeah, there happened I just when you said that I'm like, wow, you look fantastic.
Speaker 2:Um, so it's a joke, obviously, for those of you who didn't see it. Earlier, when I talked about their certificate, she said there it is. Go to your YouTube channel, you'll see what it is, and I'm sure that's Stephanie will also probably share everything. The book is amazing. At the end of the day, I think that that's what happens, is that we, we have challenges, even with positive reinforcement, because it's hard, especially in our society. Admitting that you're afraid of dogs is almost unheard of, right In Westernized culture. What do you mean? A simple a dog or a cat or you know anytime. I'm personally afraid of snakes, so you may need to do some work.
Speaker 3:You'll have to find someone else for that.
Speaker 2:All right, good, I'm not alone, but no, but I think that that's what it is. It's like you know there is challenges that come with that right and with exposure therapy. I think that you know giving positive reinforcement at the right time, because if you only reinforce one behavior for three straight sessions, that's just not going to work for that person. The person will not be pushed. So I always talk about positive reinforcement as if you do. You know you talk about positive reinforcement, I talk about intermittent reinforcement, so that way you're not expecting it all the time and when you get it you're like oh, this feels great. And anyway, that's a little bit of the challenges that I kind of explained the therapist, because if you keep on saying yeah, yeah, yeah, it's great to be a cheerleader, but as soon as don't say yay, you're going to lose them. Um, is there other challenges that you find with exposure therapy that occur?
Speaker 3:um, yes, um, one of my challenges is finding the dogs to help me, because they you need a very well-behaved dog therapy dogs are wonderful, um, and then you need the team and the handler to help. I'm lucky, I have like three or four dogs that are, that are just fantastic until when he's ready for prime time. The challenges are, uh, sometimes when I'm working with children and the parents want to be my assistants, so I have to kind of manage that and it's all out of the best intentions but it's not always helpful. So I've gotten at this point in my career. I'm fairly confident and I just kind of say I got this, let me do my thing, you're paying me, you know I make a joke out of it. And other times parents are very, very helpful by encouraging or holding the child's hand to pet the dog. I do have a whole little thing of tips and tricks that I do with children. In particular, I have a superhero cape, captain.
Speaker 1:Positive.
Speaker 3:And for kids probably eight and under, if I can get the cape on them we channel their superpowers. We channel their superpowers Also, we kind of will. I try to. That's part of why I do the first session without the dog. I try to find out what the kid's interest is. So with Taylor, for example, she was a wonderful gymnast, so we would get her talking about her gymnastic meets and after about three and a half minutes I would say, taylor, you're standing right next to a dog.
Speaker 3:So things like that I mean honestly, the challenges pale in comparison to the personal reward for me and the rewards that people get from the relief.
Speaker 3:I thought you were a millionaire doing this yeah, I wish that's actually go ahead go ahead no, I was just gonna say that's really what propelled me to do the book, not to become a millionaire, but that I can only help one person at a time, but with the book I people actually have contacted me from all over the world. With the book, other people can do it and it's particularly helpful, I think, for other therapists who are in a perfect position to follow this method and help people.
Speaker 2:Well, you know, I wanted to put out and for those of you who go to YouTube right now, it's part of her book um, I don't know if you can read the top, but the list of learn the do's and don'ts around dogs, and there's a whole list of do's and don'ts and you know, when you talk about challenges, I think that your book is also going to help with those who may struggle with.
Speaker 2:You know, parents want to be help helpers, as you said, but I think that sometimes, sometimes parents helicopter or plow through and you know I'm a child and family specialist actually that's my, my degree is in child and family I see zero children in zero family because the parents were overwhelming to me and that's my most conservative statement I'll ever make, but having like I would even, you know, this is a good book because when I will use intermittent reinforcement not intermittent reinforcement, but rather systematic desensitization on anything I'm going to actually tell people to get this book too, because I say, ok, replace dogs with spiders or replace, you know, public dogs with public public speaking, because I think that there's a lot of things that are also very important.
Speaker 2:You know, you don't take public speaking and say, oh, I'm very nervous about public speaking. Let me register for four public speaking engagements. Um, and some people do that and I'm like that's just going to make you more fearful, right? Um, all right, I'm scared of dogs. Let's you know, we'll bring you to auntie j, you to Auntie Jane's house and her dog is great. Well, the kid doesn't know that. Even adults don't know that, because you're plowing through what needs to be done on a stage by stage basis and, like you said, some stages, some people to go really fast for all the stages and some others don't, and I'm being able to kind of like measure that up is so important.
Speaker 3:Right and those are really good points. And a lot of people contact me who have worked with other therapists who have done it kind of from their office and given them homework and things but have not really facilitated an exact exposure session themselves, which I think makes me a little bit different and I think that that's part of you know pat myself on the back. I think that's what makes me helpful. Somebody called me the other day and said their therapist sent them and their nine-year-old child to a dog park. I said what? So that's exactly what you're talking about. Way too much, too soon.
Speaker 2:That's plowing through stuff and that's absolutely terrible, terrible, and you should applaud yourself. And I can't tap you in the back, but we'll pretend here. Thank you, I promise, go to YouTube. I did it, I promise. But the point I wanted to make around, that is what I admire about your work there, and what you just said is exactly what I like to do too. I have clients who despise not hate, despise being in an office and they'd rather go walk. There's a rail trail right behind my office and we go for a walk and we do therapy that way, cause they want to do it that way. And people are like, well, what if HEPA, and what if this? What if no? I met the client where they're at.
Speaker 3:Yes.
Speaker 2:You know I had. I had a client who struggled with his ability to be on water. Well, we went to a boat yard and we did it two or three times until he was able to get on a boat. And if you're like you got to wait for that. I'm like, well, no, it's because you got to meet people where they're at, and if you don't, you're actually deserving the work you do. So, yes, please step. You know.
Speaker 3:You know we need to pat ourselves in the back because you're meeting people where they're at and that that's that's the first, that's the second thing I learned right in social work school after how, after it's hard to ask for help, meet them where they're at you know, I the other, the example of meeting people where they're at.
Speaker 2:A client of mine might, when I would say probably my fifth or sixth client all time uh came in, they like, oh, steve, you, you're gonna work with the hard clients. And he had been arrested. And he came in and he I said, hi, I'm rim steve. And he throws a newspaper like here read this, you'll know who I am. And I threw the paper right back at him like right in his face, and I said, when I give a fuck what this paper says, you tell me your story.
Speaker 2:And I think that meeting people where they're at is actually where people really do the hard work and are willing to meet you. And when you, you know, you say come on in and come and pet fozzy. How about a picture? How about a conversation? Yeah, how bad is your fear? Because that's the other part too. Uh, this, when I work with kids, this was my favorite thing to do. And, um, if I can get to that page, of course now I can't find it because I want to show it to everyone uh, but you had a list of how bad's your fear, of zero to ten, I believe yeah, here it is, yep a fear scale I think that doing that before you start showing people dogs or going to dog parks or whatever, that's a lot more important than anything else.
Speaker 2:So again, book is super helpful. I want to make sure, like I know, I'm highlighting a few things. I hope you're okay with that, because I really think it's a great book.
Speaker 3:Thank you. Now highlight all you want. It's great. But also, just, you know the fear scale with dogs. Anyway, you need information. I need to to know is it little dogs? Is it big dogs? What are you exactly are you afraid of? Did something? I need information in order to be effective. So some, some people don't want the dog to look at them, so during the session we keep the dog's face away from them until they're ready.
Speaker 2:I think there's a part of a chapter that talks exactly of that and I think you said you made Fozzie face the other way.
Speaker 3:Yep, yep.
Speaker 2:So again, you know what I, what I really like, you know what I really want people to do is go get that book. And you know, maybe tell us how to get that book. And you said there's a new book coming out or already out.
Speaker 3:It's out out, I'll show it.
Speaker 2:This is the kids companion workbook to go with it's kind of scott, and just for the podcast itself, because there's some of it and won't see it on youtube. How to face? My fear of dogs that's the accompanying book to uh, a company activity book. That goes with the other book, overcoming your Child's Fear of Dogs. So I just want to make sure, because some people will not be on YouTube.
Speaker 3:So I understand that. So the second book I actually wrote with my daughter, who's a teacher and who was the inspiration for this whole journey, and it it talks about empowerment. It has mindfulness exercises. It's actually probably useful for a lot of different fears. But one thing I do want to mention just as an aside parents must supervise all interactions with dogs for kids who are really six and under, because 99% of bad things that happen with dogs are not the dog's fault. So I just want to put that in there.
Speaker 2:Well, what you just said is also a sad statement that we got to remind people that children under six have to be accompanied on a regular basis.
Speaker 3:There you go.
Speaker 2:Including when there's other adults, kids, you know, you just go, go, here's your five friends, good luck. Never mind dogs or even cats or any other birds or whatever the pets that people may have. So just sad that we have to actually mention that. But yeah, you're absolutely right, it's true, we need to mention it. Um, so where do we get these books?
Speaker 3:so these books are available online at amazon, barnes and noble few other places. Um, actually I'm excited because an online bookstore, dogwisecom, is picking it up. They sell all books, dog, so it's readily available online. And I'm on Instagram, facebook. I have a website. I'm not that good with it, but I have one and I'm always happy to get. I don't mind giving out my direct email if people want to contact me. That's a, so it's my name, which is spelled kind of funky because that's who my mother was Stephanie S-T-E-F-A-N-I Cohen, c-o-h-e-n-l-c-s-w. At gmailcom.
Speaker 2:I'll make sure I'll put in the show notes with your link to your website, to your Instagram and to your book. I'll make sure that's all on there so people can go get it Again. I'm a big fan. Really enjoyed reading your book there, so people can go get it again. I'm a big fan. Uh, really enjoyed reading your book, um, and I think it's going to help a lot of people including, I think, parents who deal with this and don't know how to do it. So congratulations on being on that website for dogs. That's actually very helpful for a whole lot of different slew of people. So I want to thank you for being on the podcast today. What I would like, what I told you beforehand, before, before we started recording. She half laughed, but it's the truth. We'll privately do so, but you let me know where I can send that book so it can be signed. I'll pay for the postage, I don't mind, but this is how excited I am about this book, because it was so good and I wanted to thank you for that.
Speaker 3:Thank you so much. Thank you so much. Really kind this.
Speaker 2:I gotta say this was a really great interview and, um, I hope it will help a lot of people my guess is, a lot more people are going to tune in, because I think a fear of anything but particularly dogs is a lot more common than people are not I think that's true thank you so much.
Speaker 3:Thank you.
Speaker 2:Well, this was great. Thank you, stephanie, for a great interview. And this concludes episode 174. For 175, we're going to be talking to Kyle Goodnight Again. Going back to the first responder stuff, kyle, I've been on his podcast called Elevate and we're going to talk a little more about the first responder stuff. So I hope you join us then.
Speaker 1:Please like, subscribe and follow this podcast on your favorite platform. More about the first responder stuff, so I hope you join us. Then reach out to a professional counselor for consultation. If you are in a mental health crisis, call 988 for assistance. This number is available in the United States and Canada.
