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Finding Your Way Through Therapy
Join Steve Bisson, LMHC as he unravels the complexities of therapy and counseling. Engage in straightforward dialogues, enriched with insights from special guests sharing a like-minded perspective. Each episode presents valuable, easy-to-digest information designed to help you perceive therapy, and those who partake in it, in a grounding, relatable manner.
Finding Your Way Through Therapy
E.177 Breaking Silence: Surviving and Reforming the Troubled Teen Industry
Meg Appelgate, a courageous survivor of the troubled teen industry and co-founder of Unsilenced, joins us to share her profound story of resilience and advocacy. We explore her experiences with institutional abuse and the urgent need for reform to protect vulnerable teenagers. Meg's book, "Surviving and Fighting the Troubled Teen Industry: Becoming Unsilenced," is a must-read for those wanting to understand the depth of these critical issues, as she works tirelessly to end institutional child abuse and offer justice for survivors.
We delve into the harsh realities of the troubled teen industry, tackling the traumatic experience of "gooning" and the deceptive marketing tactics aimed at desperate parents. The conversation highlights the gap in understanding between parents and their children, emphasizing the importance of addressing underlying traumas rather than resorting to extreme measures. We also confront victim-blaming cultures, particularly against women, and advocate for more empathetic and informed responses from law enforcement and authorities.
As we navigate parenting challenges, we offer guidance for parents seeking alternatives to troubled teen programs, focusing on community-based therapies and tailored approaches. We discuss the importance of transitioning from being a protective figure to a supportive guide as children reach adolescence, allowing them to learn from their experiences in a safe environment. With a nod to upcoming holiday challenges, we encourage listeners to engage with the podcast for further education and empowerment.
Check out Meg's website at https://megappelgate.com/
Check out the attorney directory for those who have had experiences with the TTI at https://attorneys.unsilenced.org/
Her book can be found at https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0D367XKWH?ref_=cm_sw_r_cp_ud_dp_7SZ565B52EW2VKCCZ3FV&skipTwisterOG=1
Freed AI converts conversations into SOAP note.Use code Steve50 for $50 off the 1st month!
Disclaimer: This post contains affiliate links. If you make a purchase, I may receive a commission at no extra cost to you.
Hi and welcome to Finding your Way Through Therapy. A proud member of the PsychCraft Network, the goal of this podcast is to demystify therapy, what can happen in therapy and the wide array of conversations you can have in and about therapy Through personal experiences. Guests will talk about therapy, their experiences with it and how psychology and therapy are present in many places in their lives, with lots of authenticity and a touch of humor. Here is your host, steve Bisson.
Speaker 2:You're in a very good accent, reed. He has a great accent for saying my last name. Hi and welcome to episode 177 of Finding your Way Through Therapy. Happy you're here. If you haven't listened to episode 176, go back and listen. Stephanie Simpson I don't know. I've always enjoyed talking to her. We talked about coaching, we talked about education, we talked about our own limits and our own self-limiting thoughts. So it was a great interview. So please go back and listen.
Speaker 2:But episode 177 will be with someone who also was I contact me via email and is is someone who was unfortunately in the troubled teen industry, or TTI sometimes, as it's known. Her name is Meg Applegate. She has a great book out. I think I got about halfway through, just being truthful, right, but her book is really good. Surviving and fighting the troubled teen industry Becoming unsilenced is the title of the book, so go listen to. I'm going to list it in the show notes. But Meg is a co-founder of unsilenced, a nonprofit dedicated to ending the institutional child abuse of troubled teen industry. She's a survivor of two programs and she details her harrowing experience and the urgent need to reform. With a background in psychology and extensive nonprofit management, meg is committed to ending abuse in the troubled teen industry and I know she's going to talk about that and securing justice for survivors. So very interesting stuff, kind of new stuff for my podcast. So I hope you enjoyed the interview here.
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Speaker 2:Well, hi everyone and welcome to episode 177. I get contacted regularly for guests to come on to my podcast and I always take about a day or two to respond, and sometimes it's not a good fit. Sometimes it is. I think. I read the one sheet, as they call it, for Meg, and I think I responded within five minutes because I want to hear Meg Applegate's story myself. Meg Applegate is a CEO of what's the name of the company Unsilenced Unsilenced when you write terribly, you can't read your own writing. So that's great. But, meg, welcome to Finding your Way Through Therapy.
Speaker 3:Thank you, I'm glad to be here.
Speaker 2:Well, you know, sometimes people think it's all. You say these things just because you say them, because you do a podcast or whatever Truly took me five minutes, meg. I'm like, please, please, I want to meet Meg. Oh, that's so sweet. So I was really excited and I get to read. As my audience knows, and as you probably, I told you before the interview, I read about half the book. I'm then finished a book. I never lied to anyone.
Speaker 2:I try to be as honest as I possibly can in life, and I highly recommend it for the record. I want everyone to read it because we need to address this issue of the troubled teen industry and how it's treated. But it's not my story to tell at all and I would love for you, meg, to kind of introduce yourself to my audience.
Speaker 3:Yeah, well, thank you. My name is Meg Applegate, I'm the CEO of Unsilenced and I'm also a survivor of institutional abuse, and I spent about three and a half years in the troubled teen industry, spread out through two different programs.
Speaker 2:And I remembered a Chrysalis program as one of them. Yes, yes.
Speaker 3:So first Intermountain Hospital in Boise, Idaho, and then I went to Chrysalis, which was in northern Montana, right next to the Canadian border.
Speaker 2:Those Canadians be careful with that. But you know, I know it's going to sound silly and again, I highly recommend people will go check it out and go read the book. It's going to seem like a silly question but the constant question in my podcast all the time is the same one is have you ever been in counseling or in therapy? And of course I kind of around age 10, where I wasn't in some type of therapy or guise of therapy.
Speaker 3:I should also say as since the triple team industry was really a guise in my opinion, but yes, I have been not only in therapy and counseling, but pretty much every type of counseling and therapy that like exists today, so I've tried a lot of different things.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and you know when you said that, you know. One of the questions that come to mind is everyone has their favorite modality? I'm trained in cognitive behavioral therapy. I do eye movement, desensitization and reprocessing. That doesn't mean they're my favorite all the time. Different people that need different things. That's just how I work. In your experience, what was the best modality for treatment for you?
Speaker 3:I think it differs really when you think about what you're trying to treat, right. I think that if I think about my panic disorder and what I've dealt with in my life and dissociation, I would say biofeedback has been really helpful. If I think about my triggers and my CPTSD, then EMDR has been really helpful. If I think about my autism and how I'm relating to the world and processing in that regard, then ACT therapy has been super helpful.
Speaker 3:So it's kind of ACT stands for acceptance commitment therapy, and so it's great for people like me who are really rigid in morals and values, because it's really based about doing the right thing, based on your values and moral system and then also just fully accepting who you are because and those thoughts that come along with being who you are. So I think one of the ways that I struggled in CBT as an autistic individual was that it's about rewriting your thoughts and kind of retraining your brain to think in a positive way. But the reality is is that we all have negative thoughts and that's okay and we need to accept them without judgment, and I think that was a big part of why I love that type of therapy.
Speaker 2:And I think that you're absolutely right. I you know I I don't treat CBT, everyone with CBT. I don't treat everyone with CBT. I don't treat everyone with. Emdr obviously the reason why I talked about. Sorry for being a pain about ACT, but we all know the acronyms, but I always assume that my audience needs to know what they mean.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I understand.
Speaker 2:And working with personality disorders, I thought dialectical behavioral therapy was amazing, if you do it right. Of course, I'm talking about the real model by Marsha Linehan and I'm actually trained and approved by Linehan's people and I think that that's what is important. I always like that question to ask my guests because I'll tell you the other answer I love Because it comes a little bit of what I've learned in my career. It's not about the modality, it's about the connection to your therapist 100%.
Speaker 2:And to me like I could be doing whatever type of therapy, but I don't feel a connection. It's going to suck.
Speaker 3:Yep.
Speaker 2:And if you're doing it in the wrong way and you're not respectful of your client, it's going to suck. I think a Bormathe I caught this actually this morning. He was talking about a study that when two people are sitting in a room therapists, friends, whatever when they start connecting with their brain waves and their heart waves, healing tends to take place Not all the time, but it tends to take place. And that's why I tell people, like a modality, whenever someone comes in and says oh, I know you do this or whatever they choose, and I go let's connect first and then we'll go from there, right, and I think you bring up two really interesting things just even in this short amount of time so far.
Speaker 3:One is you brought up that not every modality can treat all different individuals. There is no one size fits all for therapy. And then the second thing that you brought up which I thought was interesting was that shoot, what did the? What you just said, my brain the connection with the brain right.
Speaker 3:Having that, having a connection with your therapist, is paramount. Connection is key, right? And if you look at the troubled teen industry, there is no connection because you are oftentimes kidnapped in the middle of the night to go be a part of therapy for months or years. So there really is a mistrust in that relationship with your therapist. And then the second part it is a one size fits all. They say, hand me your teenager and I'll quote fix them right. And so it is. It's, it's trying to fix all these different things, everything from learning disorders all the way to eating disorders, and with one size fits all.
Speaker 2:Right, and you know we. You just mentioned the troubled teen industry and the ones you know, the one size fits all. And we're going to fix you. Boy, do I have things to say about that too? And we're gonna fix you. Uh, boy, do I have things to say about that too? Uh, because I, when people ask me about like can you fix me? And I'm like I've seen over 10 000 people in my career. I have fixed zero. I am still screwed up and I can't even fix myself. But I gave a lot of tricks to myself and other people for them to get better and feel better, but I've never fixed a person. Um, how about we define a little bit of what that means about the troubled teen industry? Because if I don't know what that is, I knew what it was, but if someone is listening for the first time, how would we define the troubled teen industry?
Speaker 3:Yeah, so really, in my mind, the troubled teen industry is a network of powerful and punitive congregate care facilities or residential facilities that claim to All in quotation.
Speaker 2:Go to my YouTube. It's all quotations here.
Speaker 3:Yes, exactly that claim to fix youth, but in reality it's all non-evidence based and they're claiming to fix things like homosexuality or fix things like, you know, learning disorders or autism, you name it. So anything from behavioral issues, mental health issues, eating disorders, things like that. They claim to be a one size fits all for this. Unfortunately, the kids who are going into these facilities oftentimes leave calling themselves survivors, which obviously no therapy should cause someone to become a survivor.
Speaker 2:So if, if you, any of my clients, ever say to me they survived my therapy, I would be like I'm very sorry. I'm sorry.
Speaker 3:Whatever?
Speaker 2:I did. Sue me, please. I wouldn't want anyone to say that about me. You know I think I go back to my generation and you know I'm a little older and you know, when I was a kid there was like TV shows about scared straight, which is oh yeah, for sure, that was, that was treatment.
Speaker 2:Again, quotation marks. Yes, exactly, I know you. You know if you read the book. I don't want you to sell the whole book, but you know it was a powerful statement. I think it was in the first chapter when you talked about how you were brought to the facility. Can you describe what the teen, the troubled teen industry does to bring you to a facility?
Speaker 3:Yeah, so oftentimes they convince caregivers that it is imperative that the child be brought to the facility through measures that are called escort services. If you're a survivor, we call it gooning, and it is when they recommend that they wake up the kid in the middle of the night. I was woken up at like 1 or 2 am or something like that, and I was told that I was coming with them and that we can do this the easy way or the hard way. They then proceeded to have me in dress in front of them, they watched me go to the bathroom, and then they threw me into the back of an SUV and brought me to the airport, where I wasn't allowed to know where I was going.
Speaker 3:And it was. They made sure I knew that if I misbehaved I would be put in handcuffs. And the sad, the really really sad part beyond, you know the obvious signs of being kidnapped is that these parents are thinking they're doing the right thing and they're thinking they're listening to again quotations, professionals, right, and the sad reality is that it's a lot of deceptive marketing and fear mongering going on.
Speaker 2:It truly is and you know again, it's going to believe me. I'm just reading half the book already and I'm going to finish that book, I promise I want you whoever is listening right now and wants to know how terrible it is read the first few chapters and how it goes from. You know the troubled teen that meg was and I know you had some issues. I'm not saying that it was not easy, it was easy. But from those to apparent parents who are desperate, who want that help and want to save their child and they're sold on this bs, if you ask me. It's just scary to think what you know, what you went through during that time and we talked a little bit about our responses to trauma, because it's a traumatic event.
Speaker 3:Right.
Speaker 3:Well, I think that another thing that my book highlights is and this is a sad reality for many survivors that I've talked to is the gap in understanding of what a child or a teen could be going through in their own life and what the parents see.
Speaker 3:A lot of times, parents just see what they consider again, quotes, misbehaviors, or acting up or pushing back against authority when in reality, if you read my book, you'll understand that a lot of times these kids are going through trauma, like absolute trauma, their parents just don't know, and these behaviors that their parents are deeming as unacceptable and needing to be fixed are oftentimes just a result of that unaddressed trauma. And so it provides insight into what could possibly be going on in your kid's life when there are misbehaviors, because I would venture to guess and this is true for myself and you'll read in the book that a very large portion of survivors, before being sent away, had some kind of sexual or physical assaults going on. And so it's really important, when you see these behaviors in teens, to instead of put a bandaid over it and be like let's fix the behavior, the end result, and figure out what's actually going on within that teen and how you can support them.
Speaker 2:Right, and you know again. I encourage people to read the book because you know when something may have occurred like that to you. You were punished because you weren't in school and it occurred Exactly, exactly, which is the truly fucked up part.
Speaker 3:I know it really is.
Speaker 3:It really is.
Speaker 3:And the part that's even more crazy is for those that haven't read the book yet I was sexually assaulted, but before that sexual assault I chose to leave school and ditch school and drink alcohol, and the guy that bought us alcohol is the one who sexually assaulted us.
Speaker 3:And so the school ended up kicking me out because I consumed alcohol during school hours not on campus, but during school hours and because of that they expelled me. And then the FBI, who was actually involved told my parents because I had lied about how I got off campus because I was scared to get in trouble that they didn't believe I was sexually assaulted. And the crazy thing is that only two summers ago no, no, no, one summer ago my parents found out that I actually was. They didn't know, I had never told them. I figured they believed me when I told them, but the FBI told them I wasn't, because I had lied about one thing, so I had to have been lying about everything. So that highlights another important aspect of being a victim and just the aspect of not being believed and victim blamed like that. It's another important aspect of being a victim and you know, just the aspect of not being believed and victim blamed like that.
Speaker 2:Victim blaming happens still to this day, particularly to women, and that's another story for a different day, I think, because I can talk about that for hours. And you know, if I hear one more time what were you wearing and what did you say, If I hear that one more time, I'm going to scream.
Speaker 3:Oh my gosh, I know it happens, I mean even in my book. When that cop that walked by and saw what was going on in the park, even just a little bit, there was a weird thing with the 30-something-year-old guy sitting there and two young 15-year-olds. He chose to inquire about why we're not in school versus following the guy that had two girls in a park and so like. That shows just how off the system is if they're focusing on that.
Speaker 2:The system is off on so many levels and you know I work with a lot of first responders and for the most part I think first responders want to do the right thing. Some of them turn a blind eye and I'm not going to go into too many of those stories either, but that's the minority, not the majority. For those of you who know all this, and if you don't stop lumping all cops in the same realm, Exactly. Do something screwed up, exactly Sorry, and that's my little soapbox.
Speaker 3:No, I mean, I think really it comes down to us as a society not providing the education needed within these jobs. I mean, that's what it comes down to. It's not a personal attack, it's more like, hey, what are we going to do within these agencies to help make sure that all who work for them understand the nuances that come with different situations?
Speaker 2:Right situations Right, and I mean you know you're literally when you talk about where you were in your the troubled team in the industry and where they put you in a facility. You had no outside contact.
Speaker 3:Correct, that wasn't monitored.
Speaker 2:Yes, yeah, and it was monitored and you know how does it feel after you leave for one, two, three years in these programs. How the hell do you go back to the you know in relation to therapy, in relation to the world, because you can't really like and trust therapy at that point because of what happened.
Speaker 3:But that would be my two cents, but again I want to hear it from you. Well, so I actually consider myself lucky because I was so incredibly brainwashed. You know, when we talk about things like Stockholm syndrome, I, I a hundred percent had that very protective of my abusers and so I actually went left Chrysalis, graduated it and went straight to college. So there was no freedom to absolute freedom and I I'm thankful that I was brainwashed, because I think I would have gone downhill a lot faster if I knew I had been abused at that point but that protected me to be able to actually get a degree, you know, and go into my career. But the end result of that was that a slow breaking down of my mental health and my body, until I was finally realizing why that was happening, which is because I was holding back trauma and not addressing it Right.
Speaker 3:But I think that you know, my two abusers were my therapists and so what that does is it? It taints that entire relationship or future relationship that you think is going to happen, right? So in the future, after leaving Chrysalis, if I'm struggling, I think about going to a therapist and I'm like, oh, you get that kind of feeling like what if they? What if they confront me, like you know my therapist did? What if they trigger that part?
Speaker 3:And that's on top of the fact that for a survivor of institutional abuse to find a therapist that understands what that is and knows what the troubled teen industry is and can understand that the nuances involved with that, like how we're going to be sensitive to certain things, how we're going to be triggered by certain things, is extremely difficult. So I heard one survivor once tell me that every new therapist she has she comes with a PowerPoint presentation because there's so much to tell this therapist in such a short amount of time and you end up spending three or four sessions just explaining why you are the way you are and explaining what happened to you, just explaining why you are the way you are and explaining what happened to you.
Speaker 2:Right and for the record, being a therapist who I'm, I've never been unethical that I know of or no one has ever accused me of that. That wasn't therapy, that was abuse. Right, what you went through?
Speaker 1:Yeah, because as much as sometimes the shaved head and the goatee can intimidate some people.
Speaker 2:I've never intimidated one of my clients and it's terrible when you have therapy that because that's what you carry with you, that's what you think it is.
Speaker 3:Yep, exactly. But I think it's also important for survivors out there that are potentially listening, that were abused by therapists in or out of the troubled teen industry, that that they understand that there is another side to that right. There is the ethical therapist and it does exist, and once you're able to find someone you connect with it's, it's transformational and it really is worth it Trying to go out and therapist shop. There's nothing wrong with that to have a session, be like not a fit, go to the next one, because when you find someone that can help you, your body and your mind will thank you in the long run, I promise.
Speaker 2:The, the therapist shopping is something I encourage for people because I tell everyone I'm not everyone's cup of tea and there's nothing wrong with that.
Speaker 3:There's nothing wrong with that at all.
Speaker 2:I'm not personalizing any of that, but I know a lot of therapists. You know I've had clients who have been with terrible experiences with male therapists. They try me out and I still don't feel it All right, I'll give you an understandable.
Speaker 2:Or if they like, I want to try this and oh, this really works out, okay, great, but ultimately it's it's like a little bit of like a second, like we don't have a problem in the medical world to say I want a second opinion, but in mental health, oh, this is a therapist I got. I'm like I don't know, I'm kind of an abrasive therapist. I like I put up with a lot of stuff in my therapy sessions, but I, you know, like my clients know that I'll call them on their shit and sometimes some people don't like that and that's okay, there's nothing wrong with that and they're not a fit for you, right.
Speaker 3:Exactly.
Speaker 2:You know and you mentioned the Stockholm syndrome earlier. I just want to quickly explain to everyone the Stockholm syndrome has to do with. When you are a hostage, you start really connecting to the people keeping you hostage. That's Stockholm syndrome. Just want to mention that too.
Speaker 3:Yeah, it's you know you develop compassion towards your abusers and almost a need to protect them, which is, you know, kind of the version of fawn, right it's. You know, fight, flight, freeze or fawn are really the, you know, the trauma responses and it's kind of a constant state of really freeze and fawn responses and it's kind of a constant state of really freeze and fawn.
Speaker 2:Honestly, when I was in my programs.
Speaker 3:So Well, you couldn't flight. Nope, it wasn't an option, you couldn't fight.
Speaker 2:Because there was consequences, you were put in the I can't remember.
Speaker 3:We used to call it the quiet room for yes, the QR, yeah, there was a QR, but that wasn't in Chrysalis, that was in the hospital. But yeah, I mean, and if you made a mistake or if you tried to run a chrysalis, oh I mean, that's like the scarlet letter, like if you try to leave chrysalis, you were your entire family as you've built this family. They tell you their family will be gone. You will be excommunicated which is why I draw those comparisons in my book to, in my opinion, chrysalis being more akin to a cult and you will be excommunicated if you make certain mistakes to a cult and you will be excommunicated if you make certain mistakes.
Speaker 2:And that's why I think the FON response you know it's still not quite like recognized in the trauma field, but to me FON is something that people do to protect themselves and I was doing a training not too long ago with a bunch of police officers and when I explained the fawn response a lot of them looked like oh, yeah. Like they. It almost kind of like I could see the light bulb go off Like oh, that, like I've seen that yeah.
Speaker 3:I'm sure they see it a lot. One way I put it in my book is cause it's hard to kind of explain the fawn response, and one thing I have found really connects with people is explaining it this way If there is a poisonous snake that bites you, the normal response would be okay, I got to go get some medical attention, I got to make sure to get some anti-venom and you're going to take care of yourself, right, and you're going to protect yourself from that snake. The fawn response, or the trauma bond, if you will, would be more so trying to find that snake to convince it that you didn't deserve that bite, and you're going to argue with it because you think you're better than that bite and you know, like trying to explain that you're actually a good person and you don't deserve a bite, right? So instead of self-care, you're in protection of yourself. You're going to go try to make it up to them, make sure that your relationship is still okay.
Speaker 3:That's fun right, that's the way I like to think of it and literally, the poison is still going through your veins. Correct, you are dying because of the poison, but you're more. It's the people pleaser, right? It's kind of that same thing.
Speaker 2:People. Pleasing happens a lot in people, intimidation situations, and all that because that's how you survive, those types of things, people intimidation situations and all that, because that's how you survive those type of things. Yep, I know we were talking right before pre-interview about, you know, domestic violence, and it really is akin to domestic violence in many ways.
Speaker 3:Oh, it's extremely so. The trauma bond I mean, that snake scenario is, is on repeat within a domestic violence situation and which I have been a part of twice before. I found my current husband and it's incredibly common.
Speaker 2:And getting out of it is extremely difficult, because very difficult. I've had this conversation with one of my one of my clients I'm not going to share the whole story and they say well, you do fond to survive for so long. You think that that's how you survive in life, correct? And it's hard to convince you otherwise because it's true, it kept you alive. So you know, when something works for human beings, they repeat it.
Speaker 3:Correct, and in the case of domestic violence, if they fawn, fawn, fawn, fawn and freeze, freeze, freeze and nothing happens, sometimes they fight, and during that fight, the abuser then Darvo's it right back to them and they become the abuser, and then they're held accountable for the reactive abuse Right, and so it's a lose-lose situation for everyone Right and you know, I know it's a very common theme now in social media, but it's literally gaslighting too.
Speaker 3:Oh yeah, I mean it's intense. It's intense how a abuse victim, within that kind of scenario, actually thinks that they're the problem and the amount of gaslighting. And a lot of abusers are very, very good at that making the victim think that they are actually the issue.
Speaker 2:So I mean that's why going back to FON is a survival skill for a lot of people In the troubled teen industry. You need the fawn in order to survive, because what else are you going to do to survive there?
Speaker 3:Yep.
Speaker 3:And you know that if you don't, you're going to end up in the worst program. And they tell you that, Like I have like 10 journals that I'll read through and it'll be like oh, so-and-so went to Provo Canyon School because they weren't following the rules at Chrysalis. Like they would tell us all the time like you're going to go to wilderness program if you don't, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. So it's a lot of kind of comparing and contrast and making it seem like Chrysalis offered you such freedom and you're in a good place and don't mess up or you'll, or else you'll end up in the bad places.
Speaker 2:Yeah, again cult-like.
Speaker 3:Yes, correct. In my opinion, that's what it was.
Speaker 2:That's what the cults like to make you feel right, and I think that what a lot of people struggle with. And I have a friend of mine who's had a teenager, who's had struggles in her life. But then you know about the troubled teen industry. We talked about it here. If you don't know about it, we'll talk a lot more and you can go look it up if you want to. But what are the treatment options?
Speaker 2:When you do have a teen, because you think you're doing the right thing? They call you. You call them up. They're telling you we're going to help you, we're going to fix your child, we're going to make sure she's safe or he's safe, or and we're going to do that by kidnapping them. They don't use the word kidnap, it's just transportation, escort, escort, sorry, yes, yes, but you know, what advice do you have for parents who are in these situations where they might have a troubled teen, but they don't, you know, they don't want to be going into the troubled teen industry where they want to get some good treatment? Do you have any advice for them?
Speaker 3:Yeah, I mean. I think that that advice, as it should be is very tailored to what that child is going through, unlike what the troubled teen industry can offer you, and what they'll tell you is that they can help regardless of what it is, and it really depends on what the teen is going through. But pretty much across the board, the first thing I recommend to parents is to look at yourself and to get yourself some support. Your child is not going to get through anything unless you are strong and have a support system, and the way that that looks is sometimes getting a therapist and being able to talk about the issues within the parenting structure that's going on. And what I really suggest, and what personally has worked for me, is getting a parent coach, and the amazing thing about a parent coach is that your child doesn't have to know that you're getting this in the background, right? So all of a sudden, your parenting techniques are going to be starting to change and you'll start noticing your kid's behavior starting to change and they're not having the stigma as labeled as going to therapy. So first I would say, as long as it's not a health crisis and there's no immediate needs for safety and security, that you try a parent coach and then, when it comes to the kid, and let's say that that's not able to be efficient.
Speaker 3:There are so many different types of community based programs and therapies that are so highly effective and, for instance, you know we have a lot of therapies within the justice system that haven't really sprouted out a ton into community-based, but they are so highly researched and effective and, like family systems therapy, it's extremely effective and it's research backed and it's underutilized. And then also, a lot of kids are lacking peer support, like, let's say, they're bullied or they don't fit in, or perhaps they're in foster care and don't have a parent or someone to look up to, an adult that they can model after, right, and those kinds of cases. Going to nonprofit organizations like Big Brothers, big Sisters, who we're partnered with, being able to offer them peer support and have that one adult growing up that is helping them through the hard stuff, right, that can make the world of a difference. So looking into community-based organizations Also, just like I said, instead of putting a Band-Aid over what the behaviors that are happening, that are really happening because of something that's underlying, I would say really figuring out what is going on with the child and a lot of times that's just sitting down in a nonjudgmental way and saying how can I help you, how can I support you?
Speaker 3:This is going to be controversial that I say this, but I truly believe it that because we have kids, you know they start off as toddlers and our entire world is making sure that they don't die and they don't make bad decisions and they don't go up the stairs because they can fall, and we protect, protect, protect.
Speaker 3:And at a certain point in time, right around that adolescent stage, we have to shift our parenting techniques to being more of a guide instead of a protector and we have to let them experience life, and so one of the things that I think is really important is making sure not to parent these kids too much that are struggling and be more of a support system and a guide, to be there.
Speaker 3:For myself, it's more important that my kids know they can tell me anything without being punished than to be the one trying to control their behaviors.
Speaker 3:Right and having natural consequences are fine, but not imposing outrageous consequences.
Speaker 3:So, for instance, if your kid is deciding oh, I'm going to drop out of school, I'm not going to kick them out of the house because they're not making the decision to stay and get their diploma, but a natural consequences is that they won't get a diploma and naturally won't get maybe as good of a job, right, but have those natural consequences and have you be there for when they realize oh no, mom, I made a mistake, and that's the most important part, because many parents that that send their kids I would say a majority of relationships of the parents that send their kids to these programs no longer have relationships with their kids because of the abuse that the kids went through and the distrust that was created in that relationship with their parents. So the most important thing if you want to continue the relationship with your kids is to make sure you listen to them, you support them and that it's more of a guide and they're to support and find different methods of supporting with whatever they want, instead of forcing them into things.
Speaker 2:There's two things. I'm going to ask you a question after I point out that what? I can't remember who had said this, but I think that once they hit the 12, 13, 14 age around there and I don't have an exact age, sorry everyone I tell people you become a consultant to your child. You're a very important consultant, but nonetheless you're a consultant and you using the same punishment or trying to helicopter them or protect them too much, you're actually not teaching them anything. You're teaching them that they're helpless, correct?
Speaker 3:Go ahead, yeah, go ahead. No, I want to hear you. I think that what you're highlighting also is the pathologization that has happened with adolescents in general within our society. If you look at Erickson's psychosocial stages of development, when you get into age 12 to 18, you're going to be going through the stages that what highlight a normal development to be is pushing back against parents. They are finding their purpose in the world where they stand, and how you figure out your placement in society is by pushing back on the mechanisms that we've been groomed to just accept as how they are, and that's going to build a strong adult is by having a child that knows that they can push back and they'll still be loved, and that's how they find out who they are.
Speaker 3:So if we pathologize things like skipping out on classes super normal, I have to say very, very normal or you know, all of a sudden grades dropping super normal, you know. Playing around with substances and smoking weed, or starting to have sex, or trying to figure out their sexual identity or gender identity super, super normal. And it actually highlights your kid is going through what they're supposed to be going through, and so we need to be able to help support them in a safe way so that they can do that in a safe manner as they grow older. Obviously, if they're addicted to certain substances, that's a whole different story, right. But understanding our own perception, maybe on the way that we were parented on our own kids, and making a conscious decision to understand is this behavior bad because I don't like it and I wouldn't make it, or is it, you know, trying to figure out why you have that perception of that kid being quote, troubled?
Speaker 2:Right, and I think that that's exactly right. I you know my kids. They're both teenagers and sometimes they'll like ask me well, what's cocaine? What does it do?
Speaker 2:Yeah, exactly, I give them a, a straight answer and a lot of people like you can't say that to your kids. I'm like they're going to read false information on the internet or I give them the right answer. I'd rather give them the right answer and I have those conversation with my kids. You know, if you drink smoke, do whatever you're feeling. Like you're lacking judgment, call me, I'll go and get you questions that night.
Speaker 2:I'm not saying the next day I might not have a few questions, but that night when picking you up we're going home and, if anything, my kids are not curious about any of these things because I keep the wide, open conversation.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and here's the thing is they're teenagers and our goal is to make sure that when they're adults, they know how to handle things. And I would at least for me, I would much rather my teenagers go through these really hard decisions, whether it's through relationships, red flags that happen, or it's substance abuse and being exposed to be able to understand what certain things and how they affect your body. I'd rather go on while they're still in the house and I'm still their parent, right, and be able to educate them so when they're on their own, they already know all this stuff and they don't have to go through it without the support system. And I, you're exactly right. I would answer that question honestly too and just be like this is what it does, this is the effect and this is the possible outcome. If you start to make those decisions, you know and it needs to be their own decision, not out out a fear-based don't do that or you'll die. Right, the the dare. Don't do drugs. Things just doesn't.
Speaker 2:It doesn't work right and I, and I think we've come and again, I'm in that generation too, so I'm not blaming other people, I'm including myself. I, I mean, I've taken the let's open and talk about everything approach yeah but a lot of parents are like why are you asking me this question? Why? Why are you asking about cocaine? Because they want to ask about cocaine, Let them ask. I'm sorry I'm picking on cocaine right now, but it could be a bunch of different things.
Speaker 3:No, it could be anything no-transcript. She is as supportive as I am, and she is really good and that helps too, but you know, we work together. Parent yeah.
Speaker 2:So you know, I think the other part too is the vilification. When you talk about the parents who get divorced and they start vilifying the other parent hey, it didn't work out between me and her, but we still need to be good parents together and she's really. She's really good at that and I'd like to think I've done a pretty good job as a co-parent myself. That's great, but ultimately, I think that that's what you're right. You know, these parents are feeling like they need an answer and, unfortunately, when I have had my clients ask me about their kids who are troubled and all that, I always remind them like you can get the easy solution, but you're going to pay the price in the long term.
Speaker 3:No, it's exactly right, because I was just about to say that if you're looking at your child and you're thinking, oh my gosh, what's going on just seems so complex and their quote issues seem so complex, you have to stop and think that if something seems complex, then the answer is obviously going to be complex as well, and there is no easy solution to a complex answer. It's going to take, you know, finding one thing, trying it on, and if it doesn't fit, you try the next thing and you see what works for that child, because there is not, there is no one size fits all when it comes to parenting or any kind of issues that adolescents have.
Speaker 2:I mean, I know you have kids too, so you know when? When my wife gave birth? At the time I looked for the manual attached to placenta, but there wasn't any.
Speaker 3:So talk about that in my book, like the fact they let me go home without a manual. It's like whoa. What were they thinking?
Speaker 2:I literally about that in my book, like the fact they let me go home without a manual. It's like whoa, what were they thinking? I literally that's what was my first thought when I got in the car and I was going home with my wife and my first child. I'm like they let me go, are they dumb?
Speaker 1:Yeah, what the hell's wrong with them?
Speaker 3:I know exactly. Parenting is figuring it out as you go and trying harder the next day and just repeat. You know, and my mom told me something once. She said parenting is just trying something and if it doesn't work you try something else and you never stop trying.
Speaker 2:And the other thing that I want to mention, because some of these facilities for troubled teens can cost a lot of money. If you think throwing money at the problem is going to solve your problem, you're the problem.
Speaker 3:Correct and these places are. You know we're talking about five to $40,000 a month, so very expensive.
Speaker 2:So that's why the other part I want to mention. I think some people are like that's worth it. I'm going to get a loan because they're going to be doing a great thing. Throwing money at it will not solve your problems.
Speaker 3:No, it doesn't.
Speaker 2:It doesn't. As we wrap up here, you know we talked about your book. I'd like to know again where can we find the book, the title and everything else that goes with that?
Speaker 3:Yeah, so it's called Becoming Unsilenced, surviving and Fighting the Troubled Teen Industry, and you can find it on Amazon. It's available pretty soon on audiobook. I just recorded that. So it's going to come out in the next couple, probably in the next couple of weeks, maybe two a month. We also have it on Kindle and you can find it on barnesandnoblecom as well, but Amazon is really the easiest place to be able to get it.
Speaker 2:And again I've read like and what I've read so far is amazing. I and I don't say those things just to be nice, it's the truth. So you may not listen to my podcast every week, but one thing I pride myself on is never lying.
Speaker 3:So that's appreciative. I I absolutely applaud authenticity.
Speaker 2:And then the other thing too, is you know, when these kids come out and sometimes they got a lot of like like they they may need an attorney because there was a lot of bad things that happened. There Is there. Do you have any resources for them?
Speaker 3:Yeah, absolutely. We've actually uh, within unsilenced, we have just launched an attorney directory which is online. It's a attorneysonsilencedorg, and it allows survivors to go there and be able to find an attorney that can potentially litigate their case, and all those statutes of limitations are very, very short and a lot of these states where these programs are located. You know, if you're a survivor that came out within the last couple of years and you want to find justice, this is a really good option for you, and if you're an attorney personal injury attorney out there that is specializing in any kind of abuse cases sexual, physical or institutional abuse you can sign up for our directory as well, to be featured on that, to be connected to other survivors.
Speaker 2:Any fees.
Speaker 3:So we offer there is a free membership for attorneys. That is a kind of a smaller membership. And then we also offer sponsorship opportunities, as we are a nonprofit and rely on our generous donors.
Speaker 2:Well, don't be afraid to ask for those sponsorships. That's why I threw that out Absolutely. So I'm going to link that all in the show notes so they can go and check it out. Awesome and Meg, I can't tell you this was as painful as it was to hear your story. I like to see the other side. You know, you look amazing, you sound amazing and the work you're doing is exactly what people need. So I truly, truly appreciate you and everything you can do.
Speaker 3:Thank you, I appreciate that recognition.
Speaker 2:So I hope we meet again at some point Me too, because I'd love to hear some follow-up on this. But I hope you again at some point because I'd love to hear some follow-up on this. But I hope you stay in touch.
Speaker 3:Thank you. Thank you so much for having me.
Speaker 2:Well, this concludes episode 177. Meg Applegate was an amazing guest. Thank you so much. Go check her website, go check her book. There's so many things that we can talk about. My next episode 178, I actually haven haven't figured out what. What thing I want to talk about. And, to be truthful and being a little very transparent, I'm recording this a little in advance, before that show, so I have plenty of time to change my mind, and I know it's going to be November. We can talk about the holidays, we can talk about a bunch of different things, but I'll see what I feel like when I get closer to that date. So I hope you come in then. My guess is it's going to be about the Surviving, the.
Speaker 1:Holidays. Please like, subscribe and follow this podcast on your favorite platform. A glowing review is always helpful and, as a reminder, this podcast is for informational, educational and entertainment purposes only. If you're struggling with a mental health or substance abuse issue, please reach out to a professional counselor for consultation. If you are in a mental health crisis, call 988 for assistance. This number is available in the United States and Canada.
