Finding Your Way: Resilience Development in Action

E.192 Breaking Free from Food and Fitness Myths With Movement And Nutrition

• Steve Bisson, Jessica Jamison • Season 12 • Episode 192

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Jessica Jamison returns to our studio, unfolding her transformative journey from the weight loss industry to becoming a dedicated advocate for those battling eating disorders. Her shift aligns deeply with her personal values, shedding societal expectations and embracing authenticity. Jessica's story highlights a powerful transition, illustrating how past experiences of rejection and fear can shape self-perception. Together, we navigate the intricate relationship between trauma, food, and body image, exposing the cycle of shame and guilt that many face.

Our conversation explores the concept of food-related trauma, challenging the notion that trauma must fit a specific mold to be valid. We discuss the unique challenges surrounding food as both a necessity and potential source of distress. Jessica shares her personal experiences with weight loss medications, tackling misconceptions about eating disorders head-on. By shifting focus to intuitive eating and movement, we advocate for breaking free from disordered habits, emphasizing the importance of joy and authenticity in physical activity.

Jessica introduces the innovative concept of "movement therapy," blending her skills as a mental health counselor and personal trainer. This approach not only champions a healthy relationship with food and fitness but also embraces client autonomy and consent. Our dialogue touches on the evolution of personal fitness, advocating for enjoyment and alignment with individual interests. As we wrap up, Jessica's heartfelt journey serves as an inspiration for authenticity in both personal and professional realms.

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Speaker 1:

Hi and welcome to Finding your Way Through Therapy. A proud member of the PsychCraft Network, the goal of this podcast is to demystify therapy, what can happen in therapy and the wide array of conversations you can have in and about therapy Through personal experiences. Guests will talk about therapy, their experiences with it and how psychology and therapy are present in many places in their lives, with lots of authenticity and a touch of humor. Here is your host, steve Bisson.

Speaker 2:

Alors peut-être très loin. Slowly but surely we're getting into the new studio. I know you've seen a few of them, but I'm still working on a few kinks. So we're back in the original studio. Welcome to episode 192.

Speaker 2:

Episode 191 was about grief and the process. I hope you go back and listen to it. But episode 192 is with an old friend of the show from episode 29, if you can remember that. So if you go back and listen to that, that'd be great, because I know that she's evolved since then and she's a friend of mine. Her father has been a good friend of mine for several years, but I've developed a good friendship with Jessica Jamison. Jessica is a licensed mental health counselor and certified personal trainer and she's been much more doing more with her licensed mental health stuff, and so we talked about it before the interview talked a little bit about what are we going to talk about? Trauma, grief, and she's like, well, trauma and food, and we kind of like like we still have to work out the kinks, but I hope you enjoy the interview and I'm sure we're going to figure it out. So here's the interview.

Speaker 2:

Well, welcome everyone, and I'm so excited to have a returning guest not only a returning guest. Let's be very frank, no pun intended. Jessica is someone I met through Frank, who is her father, and I've really enjoyed talking to Jess over the course of several years now and you know we have a. We have this connection based on that, but we've also developed our own connection, which means a lot to me and I loved her episode. It was episode 29. So if you want to go back and listen to that, go ahead, but episode 192 will be with Jessica Jamieson. Welcome.

Speaker 3:

Thank you so much for having me again, steve, and it's crazy. I was thinking this I was on your podcast, I feel like when it was like a baby, right, I was thinking this like I was on your podcast, I feel like when it was like a baby right, like it was brand new, and I was like this feels like it was forever ago and I am I know, I know you're in a different place than that and I've been such a different place in my career than we recorded that. But yeah, it's, it's crazy to be back here and I'm I'm super excited for this conversation.

Speaker 2:

The best part of it, jess, is that you're. That's what I was thinking, too, when I was like I didn't listen to episode 29. Again, I've listened to it over the course of years, of course, but literally that's four years ago and I remember where you were at at that point and the change in confidence, the change in your social media content and how you're truly more yourself everywhere else now is truly just a great thing to see, from my perspective.

Speaker 3:

Oh, thank you so much. Yeah, I mean I've made some big shifts and I think because of because I was finally willing to do that and we can talk more about what those were but I finally feel aligned with what, with the work that I'm doing and that has, I think, really what's helped me be able to show up authentically. I don't think I was doing it before.

Speaker 2:

No, and I think that you know, because of the shift of my podcast, we're really talking about grief, trauma, and everyone thinks it's PTSD. It doesn't have to be PTSD. Trauma can be so many other things and I think that sometimes our lack of confidence of being ourselves comes from, you know, past rejections, past, whatever, and what will people think, and this and that, and you know in a good way. I think that both of us have evolved. Well, I think that we've certainly moved on move. We still care for what people think to a certain extent. That's important too, but for the most part, we don't give a fuck and we're here ourselves, and that's that's a great thing, because that takes away from all that shame or fear that we got from other people that were imposed by other people and then we took in, which is on us, not on anyone else, but I don't know what you think about that.

Speaker 3:

Oh, absolutely, I, I totally agree. And so many of the fears that I had um in so it and it was around leaving the weight loss industry. So that's where I started. When we recorded episode would you say 29? I was selling weight loss, right? I called myself a weight loss coach and I don't do that anymore. So now I work with eating disorders, I call myself a therapist. I am still a personal trainer, but I was terrified to leave the weight loss industry because I thought that no one would want to work with me. And now, like you said, like I don't really give a shit, I am helping people find healing and peace and that means so much more to me than what other people in the you know, in the fitness industry might think of me comes from gaining confidence, being true to yourself and realizing that most of the fears that we have are really not based on reality.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, oh yeah, they were fears that I was making up, absolutely.

Speaker 2:

Well, and again, if I'm breaking a wall, we can always cut it off the show. But I saw that in you when we were, oh, you know, what about this? What about that? I'm like were oh, you know, what about this? What about that? I'm like, just be yourself, just don't worry about that stuff. I remember having that conversation with you privately. Yeah, and if I'm breaking a wall here, we can always cut it out. But the truth is, is that I, I feel like I obviously we don't know each other super well, but we know enough, enough of each other. And I'm like yeah, jess, you're, you're enough. Stop thinking about what everyone else is going to fucking think.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, I know, and you have helped me so much with that and along with other people in my life have helped me so much with that, but I I've had to like hire my own coaches and seek out my own mentors to help me break through some of that. And it actually I remember a conversation with a business coach about a year ago and I was in the spot of like why do I have to choose, right Like, why do I have to choose to just right like, stop being in the weight loss industry and not sell weight loss? Like, like, because I want to be able to help people who want to lose weight safely and efficiently and in a healthy way. But then I can also work with people struggling with disordered eating and body image. Like why do I have to choose? And I was, like I do, right Like.

Speaker 3:

It just hit me in that moment Like no, like I have to make this choice, like I cannot be afraid to fully step into this. Because it was just holding me back. And I think that's that's when I signed up for, for your course like how to start your own private practice, and we can, you know, talk about all of the fears and blocks that I had in terms of calling myself a therapist and how I worked through that. But you're so right Like I've struggled with confidence my entire life.

Speaker 2:

Right and I think that you know, in episode 29, you did talk about this and the eating issues that came with that and the confidence and we could process whatever you want. This is your podcast, because I definitely the other part too. Is that not because you're my friend, not because of anything else? I want to really help promote you because I know Jess. I know that Jess is finally showing up as Jess and it's just like everyone should meet Jess. That's how I truly feel, because we were talking even pre-interview.

Speaker 2:

I talk about movement and nutrition, not diet and exercise, and you agreed with me right away. And nutrition, not diet and exercise, and you agreed with me right away. And to me it's like changing the value of particularly I know we're going to it's going to sound sexist, but particularly women who attach their value onto this weight loss and the exercise and what it's going to look like, and that's all based on trauma and shame. So you know, I mean you can go wherever you want, because there's so many things. We can go with that, but you can go wherever you want, because there's so many things we can go with that.

Speaker 3:

Oh geez, I have to take it from there, okay.

Speaker 2:

I'm just here to host. I'm not here to do anything else.

Speaker 3:

All right, you're supposed to lead this, steve, come on. Yeah, no, I totally agree. I landed here because I struggled with disordered eating and body image and I don't know if I would use the word trauma to describe I don't know. I mean, I struggle with that Like, and I definitely have struggled over the years with telling my story because I felt like what I went through wasn't bad enough, like I wasn't, I wasn't sick enough.

Speaker 2:

But that's not a trauma response. It's not bad enough, right.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, whatever. Okay, I'm sorry.

Speaker 2:

I'm going to shut up. I said you're going to lead this? No, but you're right.

Speaker 3:

You're right, and that's why I've enjoyed being on podcasts so much, because it's helped me heal immensely and own my story Right and be able to share it is healing right within itself, um, and be able to reach it is healing right within itself and be able to reach other women who might be feeling that way, who don't want to seek support because they don't feel like their, their food trauma or their body and struggles are bad enough Because that's that's just. It's just not true, right. Like you know, I think that that food trauma can be, as we were saying. It can be one big thing. It can be not having access to food as a child, like right, that's big. Or it can be 1000 little conversations that you've had with your caregiver about cleaning your plate before you get up from the dinner table or eating your broccoli before you get your dessert.

Speaker 3:

Like I've worked with women who have had, you know, numerous body comments from their dads, their moms, their siblings, and I've also had women who a stranger has said one thing to them about their appearance and they have carried that with them throughout their entire lives, and so so for me, I think my struggles probably did come from a family who was obsessed with weight loss, right Like I.

Speaker 3:

Like you know, my parents. They're wonderful people and I had a great childhood and they were always on a diet Right Always, to this day they still are. And so as a you know, as a girl growing up like I carried that with me, like I'm not worthy of love unless, like I am small enough, right, because they had that expectations for themselves, so why wouldn't I, right? So it was just years and years and years of growing up with that and again, like they didn't know any better. I think you know, my parents grew up, like you know, and they were raising kids at the peak of diet culture, right when, like beach body became super popular and the Atkins diet and all of that like just blew up, and so they were doing the best that they could.

Speaker 1:

Right.

Speaker 3:

But you know, I think I don't know where I was going with this. I think just to share that trauma when it comes to food and body image struggle. They don't have it doesn't have to look a certain way and I don't think it's often recognized enough.

Speaker 2:

Well, I'll go back to something I've said on the podcast many times I say it to my clients. I'm going to say it here too, because it's important I don't get to decide what trauma is for other people.

Speaker 3:

Yeah.

Speaker 2:

And then most people are like do the comparison game of their trauma. And I'm like, just because and again trigger warning for those who listen that's because you never held three blue babies, because you're not a paramedic or a first responder doesn't mean your trauma is not valid. That you were at a 9-11 doesn't make it that you're not valid to have trauma from watching it on TV and so on and so forth, and I think that the part that I always kind of remind, especially around food and appearances.

Speaker 2:

you know, I know your parents, I know they're great people and people do the best they can with what they got and any information they receive. You know, and to me, like again, I'm not defending any of them, I'm just realizing that's the same thing I've said about my parents. They did the best they can. If they purposely screwed me up, I'd be like, okay, they purposely fucked me up. But I know your parents, I know for a fact they never tried to purposely do this.

Speaker 3:

Of course not.

Speaker 2:

That doesn't mean it doesn't affect you and it doesn't have trauma. And that's why, like for me, food trauma, like most people don't want to recognize that because, like, that's not important enough. Well, if you're afraid to eat a fucking donut Sorry, I'm swearing a lot.

Speaker 2:

I mean, there's something really strange about that. If you're afraid of eating 12 donuts at the same time, okay, I get that one, but eating a donut and I mean it's a great way to introduce a little bit of what you do too, but you know the donuts and dumbbell stuff.

Speaker 3:

But to me, that's where the trauma lies, is that you can't eat a donut Really. Yeah, I totally I. So I mainly work. I mainly work with women, you know, in there I would say ages 30 to 60, um, so all different ages and, yeah, the you know what they struggle with is things like that food noise, right, it's just constant. It's constant and there's a lot of shame and guilt, followed by by what they, what they eat. Right, they eat and then they feel so much shame and guilt about it and then the process just starts all over. And so and I am trying to, I've recently learned this, I was reading about it but we, we often see eating disorders as kind of like a maladaptive coping skill.

Speaker 3:

Right, like, so there's some sort of trauma that occurred and then the eating disorder is a maladaptive way to cope with that trauma. And what I would argue when I'm actually like, feel, like I'm seeking to understand in this moment I do this work is that it's active trauma, right, like we. If you think about the binge restrict cycle or someone who struggles with bulimia, you are in an active state of trauma, like you are. You are not feeling safe in your body right and your body does not trust you to keep it safe when you're engaging in those behaviors. So it's just this, you know, I think it's. It really helps to see those struggles with food and body as as not only a response to trauma, but you're you're currently living in it.

Speaker 2:

I mean, I don't, I don't want to go neurologically too far, but when you have shame or what people would describe as negative emotions there's no such thing, by the way, but that's a different story for a different day but you know, with a shame do, it results into cortisol in your brain going off. And what does cortisol do is like oh, and I'm in a fight or flight response, I got to save this fat. So not only by shaming yourself are you perpetuating the trauma, and it's an active trauma. You're also like oh, your body's like oh, we got to store this donut because, and then what does it happen? It also affects your physiological aspect of your life. So, yeah, it is active trauma and it is absolutely what food can do in your brain and how you perceive it.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, yeah, I agree. And the crazy thing about food is that you can't just stop eating.

Speaker 2:

Right.

Speaker 3:

Right, like you can't, you have to eat to live, and so I think that makes healing your relationship with food incredibly difficult.

Speaker 2:

But we also, we, we don't have a choice well, you know, and again I'll share my recent and I'm going to just go and over over some some of the stuff, not completely in detail. You know I I did wagovi for about six months and I was losing the weight. And I lost the weight and I'm no longer on it for other medical conditions that I really don't want to share here right now. But one of the things that people would say to me which always perplexed me they're like oh, you're not hungry, then don't eat. Like that's not a goal in life.

Speaker 3:

Not to eat no.

Speaker 2:

I'm like what? And in my head, maybe because I'm a dude I'm like how is that even fucking smart? And then I realized that there's a lot of this perpetual societal oh, you're eating too many things and that's why if you don't eat, you'll be fine and perpetuates that trauma, perpetuating anorexia and bulimia, because if you eat, obviously you got to throw it up because God forbid, it stays in your fucking body.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, yeah, I always tell my clients sometimes eating disorders are not about the food. Sometimes they're actually about food, and if you are not eating enough, or if you, or sometimes maybe you are, but there's because there's a difference between physical restriction of the food and a mental restriction. So someone and they might be eating the food, but it's they're shaming themselves, like as they do it after they do it Right, like telling themselves like never again I start over Monday, right. So that's an example of more of like the mental restriction. But, yeah, not eating enough, not fueling your body consistently, is only gonna is only gonna make things worse. But that's what society tells us to do, right, that's what diet tells us. Diet culture tells us to do to lose weight is just restrict what you're eating and that's that's the worst thing that you can do to for your body, because then it doesn't trust you. It doesn't trust you to take care of yourself and to listen to your internal cues versus following all these external rules.

Speaker 2:

Right, and I think that this is something I was when you were saying that. All I could think of is, every time I've been over to your parents' house or your house or your family's house, there's always a ton of food, all the food pushing in my family.

Speaker 3:

It's unreal.

Speaker 2:

And it's always like. It's kind of like a message. They're like wait a minute, we're on a diet, so to speak, which should be nutrition, but anyway. But there's like tables of food, not the expression of tables of food, there's literally tables of food at your house expression of tables of food.

Speaker 3:

There's literally tables of food at your house, literally. Yeah, yeah, the food stuff in my family. It's absolutely fascinating. So I come from like a big Italian family, like we are all about food. But yeah, like it's, and that's maybe why I struggled with food, because I was so confused. Right, like you're. Right Like I on one end, I had, you know, I grew up with not only just my parents but extended family members always on diets.

Speaker 3:

Yet at every occasion, every tiny little celebration, like big or small, like there was food. It was all about the food and you were being told you have to eat more. Right, like, the first thing that would happen when a guest comes to my house is my mom is like what can I get you? What do you need to eat? I have this, I have this, I have this. Like I'm not hungry. Okay, well, how about this? So it was. It's this crazy back and forth with the food stuff and again, looking back, it's like no wonder I had so much food noise Right, right, right as a. No wonder I had so much food noise right, right, right as a teenager. But yeah, in setting boundaries around food and my family has been huge in my healing and my mom hasn't liked it and other family members haven't liked it, but that's definitely something that I've had to do for me and in my recovery.

Speaker 2:

Well, I think that there's a couple of things. First of all, I think it's important because a lot of families are like that. I think that you see that a lot in most westernized cultures, Food is a sign of wealth, so to speak. You know, and as we go along in 2025, it definitely is. But I also think that you know, maybe it's helpful to think about how you kind of got over with setting those limits and boundaries with your family, Because even when I'm there, I sometimes I will not love you Frank, Love you Dory. This is not about non love, but like oh, you want more? No, I'm good. No, no, Are you sure you want? Like, what do I say to that? I mean, come on, stop.

Speaker 2:

Like I think that once in a while I'll say, oh, I have two legs, I could definitely get there if I want you know, but I think that it's important to kind of like share, kind of like how to set those limits and boundaries to people, so that you know, even if family won't like it by the way, a lot of people won't like it, and that's fine, you're not there to please them.

Speaker 3:

And that's exactly what I had to get over, right, that was huge for me and realizing like people are not going to like these boundaries and it doesn't matter. You know, and I think, yeah, and I think you can, you can be very gentle, right, you can take that approach or you can get spicy and sassy with it. I think it's. It really depends on the person on on either side, like how you want to handle it and how, right, how you think that other, how you want to handle it with that other person. Knowing that I'm a super spicy, sarcastic person, so like that is the route that I might take, but not everyone is like that, and my mom is not like that at all.

Speaker 3:

So I have learned to be a little bit more gentle with her, while still keeping my boundaries around food very firm and very clear. And she makes sassy remarks to me all the time about boundaries that I set with my kids and how I want food and bodies to be talked about around my children, and I don't think she likes it. But she listens to it and she respects it. But it has taken like me setting those clear and firm boundaries over and over again, and anyone out there is listening who is trying to set boundaries with their family around food. It takes time and patience because these boundaries are new, right, and we need to give people time to adjust to them.

Speaker 2:

Not only that, it's a well-worn road right. We celebrate, we have food. People don't feel good, we bring food. That's the other thing I like about. I find particularly fascinating about funerals, Whereas there are a ton of, when you're grieving and having all this cortisol shooting out of you, a lot of food and a lot of booze, and to me it's like what a setup for failure for anyone there. And setting those boundaries are tough, especially when they're down because of grief and struggles. But you're right, I think that learning to not people, please, I think is very, very.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, yeah, for sure, because I that's, that's what we want to do, especially when it comes to food, because, like you've said, it's it's a way that we often express our love and care, and we don't want to make someone feel rejected and yeah, go ahead.

Speaker 2:

I was going to ask you so, realizing that it has nothing to do with a rejection of others, but how you feel, and I think that that's the change of control. Like we, we feel like we got to control people's reactions. Unfortunately, that's wrong because you can't control them. Number one and number two even if you try to do your best to control it, you're screwed. I'm not saying to be impolite, but I'm saying don't try to control things you can't control.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, yeah. And if we go back to trauma, right, like we have experienced trauma again big T trauma, small T trauma, whatever seek that control, and I think that is totally true when it comes to food right, we want to control it so bad and I always encourage my clients to let go of that control and instead of trying to control it, your job is to respond to your body right and if you're so you know, circle back to the food, pushing or being around family who shows love and affection for food and always wanting you to eat more. Right, like you can't. You're right, you can't control that right, but you can tune in and respond to your body and its needs at that moment and you can say yes or no based on that.

Speaker 2:

And I think that that's what's important is that you don't need to listen to the exterior cues. You got to listen to your internal cues and we've changed in society how we perceive that because we let the external cues control what we want.

Speaker 3:

Oh, absolutely. That's what diet culture has done right All of these weight loss programs is they give you rules and guidelines to follow and all my clients come to me and they're like, well, I need the rules, I do better. Right, I do better with the rules. Challenge that you think that you do right, but it's because you have been completely stripped of your intuition, of your ability to tune into your body and be an intuitive eater, to be an intuitive mover, because if you watch kids eat like I have young kids if you watch them eat, they are such little intuitive eaters. It's amazing like my daughter will eat her broccoli and leave a piece of cookie right, something, something that, as adults, we're like. I would never do that right.

Speaker 2:

Because all of those external rules have taken away. I think that we created this unforbidden fruit, and I think that that's the other part too. That I think is the problem is that what's wrong with eating a cookie? Nothing. But when your body needs carrots or needs celery, you see it as a punishment instead of seeing your body wants that. Stop thinking about it as a punishment or a reward and think about it as food and fuel for your body.

Speaker 3:

Yes, yeah, I mean yeah, we could have a whole conversation around food labeling and what that has done to our ability to be intuitive eaters. But yeah, I am all about like balancing what you want with what you know your body needs, and that's something that I think it. When you have been a chronic dieter, you've been on diet after diet after diet. You don't know how to do that.

Speaker 2:

Well, let's, let's switch gears. Gears for a second, because I want to talk, also because you're a personal trainer also. Well, you know, I ate at your parents' house a lot, so I'm going to go to the gym, wear a long sleeve shirt with some plastic bags around me so I can lose all my weight that I gained from eating all the food. I'd like you to talk like and again I you laugh, but how many people think that way?

Speaker 3:

Number one and number two, I'm laughing because I did that kind of stuff Right Like I when I, when I first got into fitness. It was coming from a very unhealthy place and I didn't see that because it was normalized right Like. So you know, I I found a lot of healing and weightlifting. I do believe that weightlifting like completely saved my life and I still live to this day. But if I really look back on it, exercise for me was obsessive and it wasn't healthy and I burned my body to the ground doing it and doing crazy things like that. Like I would look up and like do research on, like how to sweat more after a meal to like burn it all off.

Speaker 2:

Like I'm sorry for laughing, but I get it.

Speaker 3:

This stuff that I did was crazy. I broke my arm right so I've really, because of my struggles with disordered eating, I lost my menstrual cycle when I was a teenager and so I have like really poor like bone density, so I've broken like I don't know five different bones and I broke my arm in college and I would go to the gym and get on the elliptical with a broken arm and people would be like, oh my gosh, good for you, like I can't believe you're here again.

Speaker 3:

Like you're so disciplined, like, wow, like I don't know if I could do that, like I was praised for all of that stuff and that just kept me in it, right, because, oh geez, right, my thought process was, like, well, what if I stop? Right, like what are they going to think of me if I don't go to the gym for three hours a day and I gain weight? Like, what is everyone going to think of me if I don't go to the gym for three hours a day and, again, wait, like what is everyone going to think? Right, they're going to judge me for that. And so, yeah, I, in my own healing, I have completely changed the way that I see exercise and movement and fitness and I now use it as a modality for for healing in my work with clients.

Speaker 3:

And so I you know you can't, I can't take the personal trainer out of the therapist and the therapist out of the personal trainer. It just can't. So I bring you know, I bring both into both you know disciplines into the work that I do. And, yeah, it's, it's super fun. And I believe that fitness should be fun and as an act of self-care and not, like you said, punishment for the gigantic meal that you ate.

Speaker 2:

Well, I think it's also very important to think about that. I don't think you should ever separate the personal trainer from the therapist.

Speaker 1:

And that's important.

Speaker 2:

I'm just going to go on a small rant and come back. When I have people who come to me about being a therapist and all that, and I said, don't make the mistake of losing yourself, and they always go, what do? You mean Stop wearing the mask of whatever the hell you learn Be yourself.

Speaker 2:

And yes, you can be yourself and professional, and both can work. But most people don't get that. You know the asshole behavior and the sarcastic tone that I use has paid dividends to me more than I can say in therapy. But if you listen to some of the professors and teachers that I had, they would have said you're going to push people away and that's not, that's not professional and that's not ethical or whatever. Like I'd like to. I'd like to tell them to go F themselves at this point, but anyway.

Speaker 3:

No, no, you're so right and I can't tell you how long that took me to learn Right and we that's what we talked about at the beginning of this episode in it Right and I left. You know the clinical position that I had after, after I graduated, to pursue personal training because I had a miserable grad school experience. So I have my. I got my master's in family therapy, which I obviously don't do for a reason props to all the family therapists out there. But like they, I started realizing, I think, in grad school, that the mind body connection was so important and but I don't think that anyone at the time, like my professors and stuff, like I don't think they, like no one was supportive of that.

Speaker 3:

Like I had this vision of how how do I integrate both and I wanted to figure that out so badly but I just didn't. I didn't get the support at the time and I left. I completely left the field for years to pursue personal training and eventually landed myself back here when and I'm still figuring it all out I still I have this vision and I don't know if I've quite gotten there, but I have all the faith and hope in the world that I will, because it's something that I am super passionate about. Like I said, using using movement as a modality for healing.

Speaker 2:

Well, that that's you know, and I don't have any doubt you'll get there. I think it takes a while to get to that confidence level for just about anyone, but it would always frustrate me when I and this is this is just between you and you and my audience at this point, when you would tell me oh yeah, I'm a personal trainer, you're a therapist also, but I'm a personal trainer. 're a therapist also, but I'm a personal trainer. Yeah, you're a therapist also, and I had these fights with you, if you remember.

Speaker 2:

Uh, it got real fun by the way we get a lot of great but yeah, no, and I think that that's what one of the things is that never remove yourself from who you are and that also saves you a lot. And when we talk about nutrition and trauma, about movement and trauma, it never you. You know, like I, one of my clients recently, who's a personal trainer, showed me a research that shows that cardio actually doesn't work as well as building muscle, and building muscle will actually help you lose more weight than doing cardio, and I found that fascinating. It's a great study. If I can find it, I'll link it in the show notes, but it's changing our thought process and not dismissing it. That's really important.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, yeah, and we talked about all of those rules around food and we also have rules around fitness and exercise and the work that I do is really helping clients. Let that go. You know the work that I do is really helping clients let that go. Like I don't, I honestly don't care that lifting weights is better for weight loss than cardio. I honestly I don't, right, like I care which one you find fun. I care about what lights you up, what makes you feel strong and confident, and if you're a cardio person, great. If you're a person who loves to lift, awesome. But like I can't tell you how many half marathon, half marathons that I've run that I have been so freaking miserable. Like I hate running, but I did it because I thought that I should.

Speaker 2:

Right.

Speaker 3:

And I now. I will occasionally go out for a light run because I want to, and for no other reason than that.

Speaker 2:

I think I was talking to someone. I never got that runner's high and I ran a couple of half marathons myself.

Speaker 3:

No, I never did.

Speaker 2:

And I'm like nowadays, like I, as I joke around with some of my clients who continue running, I say, oh, I've kind of like hung my shoes up from doing half marathons and all that because truly I don't enjoy them. I it helped me in many ways, but I don't enjoy it now. I enjoy walks, I enjoy getting on a bike, which if you told me 10 years ago I'd get on a bike and enjoy it, I would have said you're wrong.

Speaker 2:

And so things change also in respect. You're the evolution of human beings you talk about yeah you know you don't care about muscle versus, uh, cardio and all that. To me it's the same thing's like if you start enjoying really lifting weights and lift weights. Who cares? It's movement, that's important.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, it's all it, it all counts, it all counts. And, um, I think that's you know where I've moved into on the personal training side of my business and I wish, again, I wish they weren't so separate, like to have to call myself a therapist and a personal trainer. I'm like I need to come up with one word for this. Like you know, I wish that I could. So what I have been moving into is trauma-informed personal training and that feels so aligned, because you know, it's really about that client autonomy, right, and to be able to speak up for yourself and say I don't like this, this doesn't feel good to me, this doesn't feel safe.

Speaker 3:

You know, and me understanding, right, that trauma is history and how someone might show up. So, for example, if someone's canceling on me all the time, you know I'm not going to just jump to well, this person isn't motivated enough, they don't understand their why. Big enough, it's just not important enough to them. Like, no, like there's something deeper going on here that is preventing this person from showing up to their personal training sessions and we need to work, we need to work through some of that. And then, you know, making sure, you know, I think consent is huge. You know, asking clients like are you okay with this? Like, what do you want out of your session? Like, are you okay if I correct you on your form right, would you? Would you rather end with some gentle stretching today, or would you rather, you know, do a cardio finisher Right and helping them being able to like tune into what they need for movement that day Again, like we said, instead of following some sort of rule about like what's best for whatever.

Speaker 2:

Right, Well, you know I came up with a name for you. If you ever wanted.

Speaker 3:

Yes, please.

Speaker 2:

You're a movement therapist.

Speaker 3:

Oh, all right, I can roll with that.

Speaker 2:

Trademark. I saved it. I got trademark. No one can listen.

Speaker 3:

Interesting but.

Speaker 2:

I think that's like when you were talking. I'm like we were again pre-interview. I'm done with the diet exercise world. I am in a movement and nutrition world and I thought that the movement with the therapy would probably be a good way to combine both of it. But anyway, I've trademarked it, so you'll owe me all the trademark money you make out of it.

Speaker 2:

I'm all joking, of course but, I want to kind of like wrap it up here, because I want to hear more about a little bit of you know. What are you doing right now and what do you want to like talk about and how people can reach you, Because I think it's important.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, so I have my own private practice in the eating disorder and body image space. Like I said, I work mainly with women and with with a specialty in binge eating, emotional image, emotional eating and body image challenges, and I I'm a I feel that you do not have to come to me with some like DSM diagnosis. I think these challenges really do exist on a spectrum and if you are just someone who is struggling with again that food noise and that shame, like I, just I do encourage you to seek support from a, from a licensed therapist who specializes in disordered eating. And then I also offer personal training and, again, my my specialty there is clients with mental health challenges. So I would say all of my personal training clients have therapists. I am just in the role of helping you work on your physical health as your trainer.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, and you can find me on my website, revolutionhccom, and on Instagram. I try really hard to keep up with posting there and you'll find content that is weight inclusive, from a health at every size standpoint. And, yeah, my handle is at Jess B Jameson.

Speaker 2:

So I'll put all that in the show notes and I hope people do reach you, reach out to you and if you go see her social media, I give credit to Jess. I don't have that exposure of myself like she does and she's just such a magnificent job. So go check it out. And then, diagnosing wise, I just want to say, if you want to have fun one day and realize that diagnosing doesn't mean as much as most people think, go check out. And I had to look it up while we were talking. But this is a real diagnosis. It's W56.12. Everyone who is listening, please go check it out, put it as an ICD-10 code and then tell me what it was, write it in the notes or send me a DM and you'll all laugh and this will prove to you how unimportant those diagnoses truly are All right.

Speaker 3:

W56.12. Got it. Don't tell anyone.

Speaker 2:

Don't tell anyone if you're doing it up, all right, well, please reach out to Jess. And now, jess, we didn't have a plan and I think we did a magnificent job of just being ourselves here, so I really appreciate your time and all the compliments I gave you. I hope you understand this is not a podcast thing, it's truly things I mean. So happy to see you as a movement therapist.

Speaker 3:

Thank you so much for having me, steve. Your mentorship means the world to me. Well, thank you I for having me, steve I um. Your mentorship means the world to me.

Speaker 2:

Well, thank you, I try, I do my best. Well, that completes episode 192. Again, jessica jameson. Thank you so much. Friend of the show, friend of mine, great interview I'm. I enjoyed torily through here more about her, her evolution not only as an lmhc and how she's doing everything and working with the eating habits of individuals so they can have a healthy life. But episode 193 will be recurring co-host, courtney Romanowski. She'll be talking with me to Lisa Manka and I can't wait to do this at that interview and I hope you join us then.

Speaker 1:

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Steve Bisson

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