E.201 First responders face their toughest opponent: mental health stigma

Michael Sugrue shares his powerful journey from military service to law enforcement to his medical retirement due to post-traumatic stress injury, revealing how he almost became one of the alarming first responder suicide statistics and his mission to now "smash the stigma" around mental health.

• From Air Force security forces officer to 14 years with Walnut Creek Police Department, serving in various roles including undercover detective
• First responder suicide remains significantly underreported, with over 2,000 known law enforcement suicides since 2016
• The culture of suppressing emotions and projecting invincibility begins in academy training with virtually no focus on mental health
• First responders experience hundreds of traumatic incidents in their careers compared to the average person's one or two in a lifetime
• After a 2012 officer-involved shooting, Michael suffered in silence for four years before finally seeking help
• Building relationships with culturally competent therapists before major incidents occur is crucial for prevention
• Leadership at all levels must model vulnerability and normalize conversations about mental health
• Post-traumatic stress is not a career-ender if addressed promptly with appropriate resources
• Michael's book "Relentless Courage" provides both personal insight and practical resources for first responders

Find Michael Sugrue on all social media platforms as "Sgt Michael Sugrue" to connect and learn more about resources for first responders dealing with trauma.

His Book - Relentless Courage: Winning The Battle Against Frontline Trauma. - Can be purchased by clicking here.

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Chapters

• 0:00 Introduction to Resilience Development
• 2:36 Meet Michael Sugru: Military to Police
• 10:16 The First Responder Suicide Crisis
• 17:54 Trauma Exposure and Cultural Barriers
• 26:07 Michael's Personal Crisis and Recovery
• 35:53 Building Resources and Finding Help

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:01

Welcome to Resilience Development in Action, where strength meets strategy and courage to help you move forward. Each week, your host, steve Bisson, a therapist with over two decades of experience in the first responder community, brings you powerful conversations about resilience, growth and healing through trauma and grief. Whether you're navigating the complex journey of grief, processing trauma or seeking to build resilience in high-stress environments, this podcast is your trusted companion. From first responders facing daily challenges to emergency personnel managing critical situations, to leaders carrying the weight of difficult decisions, we're here to support your journey. Through authentic interviews, expert discussions and real-world experiences, we dive deep into the heart of human resilience. We explore crucial topics like trauma recovery, grief processing, stress management and emotional well-being. Our conversations bridge the gap between professional insight and practical application, offering you tools and strategies that work in the real world. Join us as we create a space where healing is possible, where grief finds understanding and where resilience becomes your foundation for growth. This is Resilience Development in Action with Steve Bisson.

Speaker 2: 1:18

Bienvenue and welcome to episode 201. If you haven't listened to episode 200, which was the premier episode of Resilience Development in Action, it was with Charlie Powell, so please go back and listen to it. But episode 201 would be someone that I met through Facebook and I was really happy to meet this individual and I can't wait for you to hear the interview. Michael Sugru began his law enforcement career in the United States Air Force as a security forces officer in the United States Air Force as a security forces officer and then Michael served in a variety of assignments, including flight leader, flight commander, senior watch officer and chief of command post and chief of security forces. Michael served all over the United States, europe, the Middle East and South America. Immediately after the Air Force, he joined the Walnut Creek Police Department where he served in a variety of assignments, from patrol officer to driver training instructor to field training officer, undercover detective, public information and patrol sergeant. Michael ultimately medically retired and he's going to share that on the podcast, and Michael is dedicated to advocate for awareness and prevention for post-traumatic stress injury and first responder suicide prevention. Michael continues to speak at military units and law enforcement agencies all over the United States and please go and find him if you can. But here's the interview. Getfreeai yes, you've heard me talk about it previously in other episodes, but I'm going to talk about it again because get freeai is just a great service. Imagine being able to pay attention to your clients all the time, instead of writing notes and making sure that the note's going to sound good and how are you going to write that note, and things like that. Getfreeai liberates you from making sure that you're writing what the client is saying, because it is keeping track of what you're saying and will create, after the end of every session, a progress note. But it goes above and beyond that. Not only does it create a progress note, it also gives you suggestions for goals, gives you even a mental status if you've asked questions around that, as well as being able to write a letter for your client to know what you talked about. So that's the great, great thing. It saves me time, it saves me a lot of aggravation and it just speeds up the progress note process so well. And for $99 a month. I know that that's nothing. That's worth my time. That's worth my money, you know. The best part of it, too, is that if you want to go and put in the code Steve50 when you get the service at the checkout code is Steve50, you get $50 off your first month and if you get a whole year year, you save a whole 10% for the whole year. So again, steve 50. At checkout for get free, ai will give you $50 off for the first month and, like I said, get a full year, get 10% off. Get free from writing notes, get freed from always scribbling while you're talking to a client and just paying attention to your client. So they went out, you went out, everybody wins and I think that this is the greatest thing. And if you're up to a point where you got to change a treatment plan, well, the goals are generated for you. So getfreeai code Steve50 to save $50 on your first month.

Speaker 2: 4:44

Well, welcome to episode 201 of Resilience Development in Action. I'm so happy to have Michael Sugru here. Michael has a great story. I've listened to podcasts that he's been on. I didn't buy his book yet, just being honest, but I'm going to get his book. I've also looked at a lot of his experience between the military, being a police and then having to have a post-traumatic stress injury and working on the stigma. I mean I thought he was perfect for this podcast. So, michael, welcome to Resilience Development in Action. Thanks for having me on. Well, like I said, I looked it up a little bit, obviously, and you send me your notes. We talked a little bit before the interview, but how about you introduce yourself to my audience?

Speaker 3: 5:27

yeah, I'm originally from the san francisco bay area, which is where I live now. Um, right after college, I went straight into the air force, was commissioned an officer in security forces, which is basically law enforcement, anti-terrorism force protection, air-based ground defense. I served six and a half years all over the world South America, the Middle East, europe, got out in 2004 as a captain and I went straight into civilian law enforcement here in the San Francisco Bay Area for the Walnut Creek Police Department. There I served 14 years a variety of assignments, from patrol officer, field training officer, detective. I was undercover on a California state drug task force, was a sergeant and also a public information officer.

Speaker 3: 6:19

I actually medically retired in 2018 due to post-traumatic stress injury and now that I'm retired, I speak all over the country on suicide awareness and prevention, trauma exposure, resiliency basically teaching those to ask for help when they need it and to not let the stigma prevent them from doing so. Part of my story that I talk about is I almost became one of the suicide statistics, which is the number one killer for all first responders. So law enforcement, firefighters, paramedics, dispatchers, and so now I'm on a mission to smash the stigma, as I say, and show the human side, behind the badge and the uniform.

Speaker 2: 7:08

You know I saw the stats. I know this is going to come out in about mid-April. I saw the stats I think you put out recently about how we already have like 13 suicides among police officers already this year. And we're at the end of March when we're recording this, already this year and we're at the end of March when we're recording this. It's really fascinating to me how we don't pay attention to this tragedy because of the stress either from post-traumatic stress, injury or other stressors that come with the job, because there's so many. Why do you think the numbers are so high in general with the suicide rate? Not only the effectiveness of usually use a firearm, but what else is the reason why we have so many high suicide rates among police officers?

Speaker 3: 7:49

You know, part of it's the culture from day one in the police academy. We're taught to, you know, not express feelings, not show emotion, that we have to be invincible, we have to be the ones to run towards danger when everybody else is running away from it. And you know it's just not what we're taught. We're taught firearms, defensive tactics, use of force, emergency vehicle operations, criminal law, report writing all these things that we spend nearly almost a thousand hours on just in the academy. And then, if we talk about once we start our career, I mean thousands and thousands of training hours, but we spend little to no time talking about the number one threat, which is ourselves. You know, the other factor which this applies to firefighters and paramedics and dispatchers as well is just the level of trauma that we're exposed to. If you look at an average person, you know they may have one or two traumatic incidents in an entire lifetime. But for law enforcement, firefighters, paramedics, dispatchers we're talking hundreds and hundreds of traumatic incidents. I mean there's different estimates, but I would say, on a conservative side, well over 500 traumatic incidents in a career, and you can take that number up to well over a thousand, especially now when you start talking about here in California. You know the retirement age is now 57. So if you have somebody starting out at 21 years old and they work till they're 57, you know, simply do the math of the. You know, just call after call and in some days in a single shift you can be exposed to multiple traumatic incidents. And so literally one day on shift is more than most people experience in their entire lifetime. And you know we're taught to brush everything off, to not internalize it, and basically, you know we tell ourselves that, hey, we don't know these people, there's no attachment here, we don't get involved, it's our job, and that only works for so long. But the reality is that you know the humanity of what we have to see and deal with. It takes a toll and what I'm advocating for is to normalize having these conversations after these traumatic incidents and not waiting to the point where it's too late. It was almost too late, you know, for me.

Speaker 3: 10:14

But the other thing that I want to bring up too, and you mentioned this in the beginning, on the suicide numbers even the best numbers that we have, they're way underreported.

Speaker 3: 10:22

Best numbers that we have, they're way underreported. First, help is really the only group I know about. It's a nonprofit that's tracking these numbers, for it used to be only law enforcement and a couple of years ago they started with firefighters, dispatchers and paramedics. And since 2016, when they've been tracking these numbers, we're already over 2000 law enforcement suicide alone and on average, we're talking about anywhere from 120 to over 200 a year that we know about. So take that number, maybe times that by three or four, we might get a real number, and we're not even talking about those that retire. You know, those numbers that are tracked are for the ones that are still active duty or the ones that are still working and, as we know, a lot of these suicides happen when we hang up that badge and that uniform and we're no longer operational. We no longer have this identity as a firefighter or a police officer, dispatcher or paramedic.

Speaker 2: 11:23

I mean, I talk about that with all my retirees who are?

Speaker 2: 11:26

going to retire that you lose that role and, oh no, I'll be fine. I'll be fine. But there's something about that role that really you carry throughout your life, whether it's off-duty or even in retirement, and sometimes that's very heavy for them to carry. I don't know what your experience has been, but I've seen so many people die either natural causes or suicide or something like that, after they retire because they just lost themselves. I don't know if that's your experience, but certainly I've seen that in my career.

Speaker 3: 11:58

Absolutely. I've seen it in my career. I see it in my work with the West Coast Post Trauma Retreat Center. I speak all over the country, I hear about these incidents, I talk to other people. But the other thing too is how many on-d duty accidents and I'll give you an example, like a patrol car where the officer is not wearing their seatbelt into a tree or into a sound wall, um, or how many firefighters you know run into a building or go on a roof which they know is going to collapse, hoping that they die in the line of duty.

Speaker 3: 12:32

And again, I'm not saying that it's one or the other, but sometimes it can be both. And in my case, those are the things that I thought about, where I never had an active plan to kill myself, but I was trying to get killed in the line of duty, and for me, that reason was because I knew, if that happened, my family was going to be taken care of. My young daughter would always remember who her father was, and my brothers and sisters would step up and make sure she knew who her father was, because I'd be remembered, I'd be honored, and that's the thing that we have to think about as well is that sometimes these suicides aren't obvious.

Speaker 2: 13:11

I mean, I, you know, I've had someone confess to me that going into a meth lab area without the proper gear and hopefully you inhale the right things at the right time I've heard the whole carbon monoxide going into a building where you know carbon monoxide poisoning isn't just so that you look accidentally that you died. So these are not like fake stories, these are all real stories. When I hear your story I'm always fascinated by that. What kept you alive? Essentially Because that's always kind of like difficult for most people to say. You know, most suicidal thoughts last for around 15 minutes. That's my training and I'm not saying that they're all 15 minutes because someone's like they're not all that. Yeah, I know that I'm not stupid, but on average it's about 15 minutes. How did you get out from those thought processes?

Speaker 3: 14:01

You know I talk about this in great detail in my book, but what it comes down to is in 2012,. At this point, I was a brand new sergeant. I'd been on with the civilian law enforcement for about eight years. I was a brand new sergeant. I'd been on with the civilian law enforcement for about eight years. I was happily married, I had a beautiful daughter, I was involved in an officer shooting and, unfortunately, I had to take a life to not only save our lives, but the lives of a couple that were barricaded inside their bedroom. And for me, this is my tipping point. You know, up to that point, I had hundreds and hundreds of traumatic incidents, but I never talked about them. I didn't have that healthy communication at home where I was able to, you know, talk to my wife at the time and share these things that I was going through and I was feeling. And so, at this point, for four years after that shooting, I suffered in silence. I went through a federal lawsuit. I lost my marriage, I was fighting for custody of my daughter, I was starting to have major health issues, a lot of other personal things were starting to happen and literally my life was falling apart.

Speaker 3: 15:05

In 2016, the federal trial ended. So the trial was four years after my shooting, and that's when I really started putting myself in harm's way, trying to get killed in the line of duty. And it was a week after Thanksgiving that same year, 2016. So a couple months after my trial ended, my best friend, who was a Vietnam veteran he was a 35-year reserve officer with my department. He actually tried to kill himself when I was on duty and I was able to see him just as the ambulance brought him into the trauma center. And I remember waiting for hours in the hospital when he was in emergency surgery, not knowing if he was going to make it or not, and all I could think about was my young daughter and I started feeling this overwhelming sense of guilt. You know, if she ever found out what happened to me, what would be the effects on her and on her future children? So a month after that is when I finally got the strength and courage to ask for help. But that's literally after suffering in silence for over four years.

Speaker 2: 16:10

I mean I can't. I'm going to read your book because this is such fascinating stuff. Obviously, I think the mental health side. I hope you understand what you talked about the tipping point of getting help. One of the biggest misconceptions is you go to therapy. You go there four to six weeks, you're all good and you go back on your merry way, which obviously it takes a lot longer and it's a lot more difficult. How was your experience reaching out for help? Did you reach out through a peer support? Did you reach out through any other way, or did you just go get a therapist out of that?

Speaker 3: 16:41

No, at the point that I asked for help I was literally at rock bottom and I knew that I needed to devote 100% of my time and effort into getting better. So I actually called the on-duty watch commander for my agency and literally asked for help. And you know, they initially kind of tried to talk me out of going through the official routes and maybe just taking a few days off or going to see the department contracted therapist. But I knew I needed much more than that, and so I let them know that I can't work right now, like I cannot be on the streets, and so immediately they're extremely helpful. I was able to find a culturally competent therapist clinician who's worked with hundreds and hundreds of first responders over her career, so she truly got it. And that set in a chain of events from, you know, peer meetings that I didn't know about to the West Coast post-trauma retreat that I eventually went to.

Speaker 3: 17:37

You know, at that point I was going to therapy literally twice a week and you know the recovery process for me was well over a year and a half. And you know also, to be honest, there's things now that I have to do every single day to maintain my mental wellness, my physical wellness, and so you know I still go to therapy, but instead of twice a week I go once a month. You know I do meditation every single day. I practice gratitude with one of my buddies who's either a veteran or one who's still in law enforcement, where I'm able to talk to either one of them and share, you know, things that are going on and really have, you know, heart to heart conversations, and so I don't want anyone to think that recovery from post-traumatic stress is you walk into a therapist's office one day and then you walk right out and things are better. That's not how it works, and usually it's a combination of a lot of different things that it takes to get better. And you know I talk about this in great detail with Dr Shauna Springer, who is a psychologist. She's culturally competent, she worked for the Department of Veterans Affairs, she's worked with hundreds and hundreds of combat veterans and first responders, and we show a pathway to healing.

Speaker 3: 18:57

You know I personally talk about what worked for me, but we also talk about what we've seen work for other people as well, and the key is you have to have an open mind when it comes to this. You can't put all your eggs in one basket and think that one thing is going to work. And I'll give you one simple example EMDR, which is very popular. A lot of therapists and clinicians use it. You know I got exposed to that at the West Coast Post Trauma Retreat and I've had it done on me a couple times and it didn't work.

Speaker 3: 19:28

I'll be honest with you. But as a volunteer peer I've gone back to West Coast post trauma retreat and I've seen it work on people time and time again. And that's just one little example of how, hey, that didn't work for me, but how I've seen it work for a lot of other people. And that's where you have to have that open mind and realize that, okay, if something doesn't work, that's okay. It's not the end of the world. There's literally hundreds of other things that you can try and explore to get better from post-traumatic stress injury.

Speaker 2: 20:02

Practicing EMDR myself, I absolutely say that the same thing it may not work for you and people say why? Well, I don't know Not a one-size-fits-all for everything and you got to be very open-minded. You talk about open-mindedness One of the hardest things. I started with law enforcement through a crisis team in mental health in the early 2000s and I evolved to where I'm at now today. You talked about open-minded In 2004 and 2006,. I was part of the Hug a Thug program because I would help people in the community and slowly but surely, I've seen the evolution and we're in 2025 now and people are like open to mental health. However, I would say that there's still a third at least that are still like why would I go get mental health support? So how do we tell law enforcement in general that this is not a punishment, this is not a judgment on their part, but rather make them feel better in the long term so they can survive this job, which is already crazy, as it is no pun intended, by the way.

Speaker 3: 21:07

You know there's two approaches here. But for the ones that are just coming into the profession, we have to have them build relationships with therapists and clinicians early on, before these big incidents happen. That way there's trust built there, there's understanding and it becomes routine or becomes normal that hey, twice a year or once a quarter I'm going to go see the department therapist or I'm going to have my own, who is culturally competent, who I can call up when I need to and be able to talk with them. This also includes having agencies or departments, having some of these contracted therapists. Have them do ride alongs with police officers, have them be exposed to the profession and truly what we see and deal with. But not only that. When you have an officer and a therapist riding together in a patrol car, that's where the magic's going to happen. That's where you're going to build this relationship and this trust and this comfort zone where you can really talk about anything and everything. And for the ones that have been doing this job for decades and don't believe in it, it's a little bit more difficult. But that's where we need people who have gone to therapy or gone through programs like West Coast, post Trauma, retreat or Save a Warrior, all these other different programs, and have them speak openly about it to their counterparts so they can see that, yeah, these things actually work, that there's a lot of great resources out there.

Speaker 3: 22:38

And it honestly starts with leadership. I talk about this all the time, but leadership is at all levels. Whether it's a fire department, a police department, we've always got new officers or new firefighters coming in. There's lots of turnover, and if you've been on the job six months or a year and there's a brand new rookie starting, you have leadership and you've been doing this job longer than them. And what we need is people to model this behavior and to lead by example. And so I always tell people that if you want someone that you supervise to come to you when they need help and to open up, you have to first be willing to do the same, because no one is going to trust you and no one's going to open up to you if they don't know that you actually understand it and you get it and that you've been there yourself.

Speaker 3: 23:29

And I'm telling you right now that if you've been doing this job more than five years, you have been there in some form or capacity and this job has affected you. It's affected your physical health, your mental health, it's affected your relationships, whether it's a dating relationship, a marriage, a partnership, your children. It does affect you, it does change you. And so, again, you know, let's have the chiefs of these agencies, let's start with them, let's have them open up and be honest and vulnerable in a department-wide setting. You know, during a quarterly training, where they're talking about mental health and they're talking about resources, who better to lead by example and be honest and real and tear down this perfect image that we want to portray, because it's not real and it's only going to last so long until it comes crashing down. But again, if you want someone to be open, honest and vulnerable, you have to first be willing to do the same, and I tell people this time and time again.

Speaker 2: 24:31

You know there's so many things you said. You mentioned cultural competency, like twice, and I think that's part of the biggest problem is that you know I find that around here I still look for resources myself. I am one of the resources but I can't take on every client. I got to find other therapists and sometimes it's hard to find those resources. I mean it's nice to have peer support groups that sometimes do have that information, but where do we find that information in general? Because it's not easy.

Speaker 2: 24:58

Like you talk about going to the command officer or whatever. But some people sometimes struggle. They don't want to go to command officer because, for the record, leadership, like you said, I'll paraphrase a friend of mine who is a police officer who said you don't need to wear bars to be a good leader in this field. And so if, let's say, you don't want to go to your sergeant, your lieutenant, your captain, whatever, it doesn't matter like barred people, how do we find resources? I know it's particularly hard for my guys out here in the Northeast and I don't know how it is in the West Coast.

Speaker 3: 25:31

Yeah, Well, first off, I'll tell you that in my book here Relentless Courage, winning the Battle Against Frontline Trauma a couple of things. The first thing is in the back of the book we have an entire resource section which is vetted. It has hotlines, text lines which are 100 percent confidential. They're free, they don't cost any money and they're answered by other first responders. They're answered by people who are specially trained, who have been there, who have done it, and you can call or text these numbers 24-7 in the privacy of your home, of your patrol car. No one has to know about it, you don't have to notify anybody in your chain of command. And there's also tons of different programs that are free. You know week-long retreats for military veterans, for first responders. They have these all over the country. The ones I've been to are West Coast Post Trauma Retreat and Save a Warrior, but there's Mighty Oaks Foundation. I mean, there's tons of them and we list these in the book. But there's also organizations that have links to culturally competent clinicians and therapists, that have links to these peer meetings that I was telling you about, where literally they're discussion meetings. They're not associated with any agency, they're run by volunteers. They're only open to first responders. Every member is vetted and you can go and literally be around other people who are going through exactly what you're going through.

Speaker 3: 27:00

But what I tell people is that with our book Relentless Courage, you can read it in the privacy of your home. We have it on Audible. We recorded it in our own voices and I'm going to tell you right now. I relived every single incident when I recorded this, and so it's like literally watching a movie. It is intense, it's gripping, it's gut wrenching. But this is where first responders are going to see that they're not alone, because I thought there was something wrong with me. I thought I was the only one, I thought there was nobody who would get what I was going through. And when you read this book or listen to it, I'm going to tell you right now, no matter if you're a paramedic, a dispatcher, a firefighter, a police officer, you're going to say me too, and you're going to be saying that through the entire book.

Speaker 3: 27:49

And the beautiful thing about this is this lays the foundation for you to realize A you're not alone. B that there is nothing wrong with you, that everything that you're experiencing, going through, is actually normal, considering all the abnormal things that you've had to see and deal with, and you're also going to see that it's possible to overcome this, it's possible to get better. I mean I'm living proof that, no matter how dark it gets and I was there I was on the edge literally trying to kill myself, and now I'm living a phenomenal whole new life. I mean I'm a better father now than I was. I'm a better partner than I was. I'm a better person than I was. I look at the world differently.

Speaker 3: 28:36

And the other thing about this is and this is the coolest thing about this is I get messages almost daily from a lot of times first responder spouses or partners who read or listen to this book and then they have their husband or wife or partner read it and for the very first time in their relationship they have a conversation about this. Because that lays the foundation on both sides to show that what are the odds that this random guy in California is telling my husband or wife's story here in Florida or New York or Wyoming? It doesn't matter, because it's the same story and we're all going through the same stuff. And so when I tell you that this book is saving lives, I mean it's saving relationships, it's saving careers, but it's saving lives all over the world and there's no other book like it and that's why, honestly, when you read it, you're going to want another episode, because you're going to have a thousand things to talk about. I mean it's going to want another episode because you're going to have a thousand things to talk about. I mean it's going to blow your socks off.

Speaker 2: 29:40

A. You will be re-invited and I will read the book and I love to talk about it in more depth. Number one. Number two this is a serious subject and I always enjoy being serious around this because it's important, but I'm a little looser usually. But I get the seriousness of this and I'd love to read your book and I will be getting it out of here. We'll also link it in the show notes so that people can go buy it. But for me, the other part too, about resources you talked about a few things. One of the things I say to younger I'll always remember. I shared this before on the podcast. I'll share it with you.

Speaker 2: 30:21

I had a guy who just started as a police officer, called me up and he didn't say hi. I said you know, steve speaking. That's usually how I answer. He goes are you going to take away my gun? Like, do I have to take away your gun? I have no clue who you are. Why would I do that? He's like well, I'm seeing a therapist. I'm like that's not a disqualifying reason to hold not hold a gun. It's like okay.

Speaker 2: 30:39

And then he opened up and we ended up having you know he comes in every at this point every two months.

Speaker 2: 30:42

He's a young guy but he's like I want someone I can go to, that I can trust, and one of the things that became clear to me as a therapist is that he addresses it Like sometimes he'll call me hey, can you just give me a quick 30 minutes?

Speaker 2: 30:54

Blah, blah, blah. He's local, so he comes over if he can and what I've realized is that when people address it right away it becomes acute stress disorder, which is a lot more manageable than post-traumatic stress injuries. And I kind of remind people that that's why you got to have those resources, start young and get those people you can trust. And when you talk about resources, I really think that the young kids we're getting I think at the state level it's almost 40 hours a week now when you do the training at the Mass State Trooper Academy, which is better than when I started, which was four to eight hours of mental health. But I think that we got to continue just increasing those resources and availability and a book like yours will just open more eyes for those younger people to look at and know that it's okay to reach out for help.

Speaker 3: 31:43

Absolutely. And you bring up a great point because I tell people all the time that you know I waited four years to get help and I honestly know that if I would have sought help sooner, I'd still be working right now. Post-traumatic stress is not a career ender and it doesn't mean that you have to stop doing this profession, this calling that you love to do. And, to your point, the sooner that you seek help, the sooner that you're going to get better. And I tell people this all the time. You know I don't ever encourage, you know, retirement or leaving the career field. I miss it. I miss it tremendously.

Speaker 3: 32:17

The only issue is that I had so much damage that was done in those four years that it took a lot longer for me to get better. And, like I said, you know it's never too late to ask for help. But on the flip side of that, the sooner you do, the sooner you get better. And you know the thing is now. And to talk about talking and therapy and all these and you know the thing is now. And to talk about talking and therapy and all these things, you know honestly, when I talk to my therapist now, it could be about anything. It could be about relationship issues, it could be about finances, it could be about issues with my daughter or with my dog. I mean, just, you know, we all have stress, we all have things that we go through and that's part of life. There's always going to be ups and downs, and so just having that trusted person that isn't going to judge you, that's not going to hold anything against you, that you can reach out to and just literally talk about anything and everything I mean the power in that is, it's so freeing, it's so healing, and I can't encourage enough and, like you said, and build those relationships early on, because when my shooting happened I didn't believe in peer support, I didn't have any resources that I used. I mean, my agency had all these great resources on paper but back then no one was using them, including myself, you know.

Speaker 3: 33:35

But nowadays things have changed and you truly do have culturally competent clinicians. And that's why I say that word so much and so often, because you know if you go to a regular therapist, just a random marriage family therapist, they might honestly do more harm than good. And I've heard time and time again of first responders that they went through their EAP program, they got assigned some random therapist who has never worked with first responders. They go into the first meeting. They end up traumatizing that EAP therapist. Then, you know, the first responder leaves pissed off, vowing to never, ever go to therapy again. I mean a horrible, horrible experience. And so again I mean something's better than nothing.

Speaker 3: 34:22

But I'll tell anybody watching this or listening to this do your research, interview the therapist. But not only that. You know, like people, we don't always get along or mesh with people with different personalities. So you know, you may go to great first responder therapist but for whatever reason, you don't feel a connection, you don't feel a bond. That's okay. Find a different one that you feel comfortable with, because you literally have to trust this person with your life and you've got to feel comfortable with them.

Speaker 2: 34:56

You read my mind.

Speaker 2: 34:56

That's exactly what I was going to say too, I'm not everyone's cup of tea and I'm fine with that, and I know other people who are culturally competent that I can refer you to and that's that's an option that exists, you know, and you talked about building the relationship. I I've said to some of my first responders sometimes they're like, come in and they, sorry, we're in the Northeast, so we talk about football, baseball, hockey, and they start talking about it Like, oh, I feel like I spent 30 minutes on that. I said, do you trust me? Or you can feel you can talk to me about anything. Yeah, kind of yeah, that's building the relationship.

Speaker 2: 35:27

That counts as therapy, and I kind of remind people I don't want to talk about baseball every time no offense or hockey, but I also want to build the relationship and there's got to be an ability to do so. So you know, as we wrap up here, when I have you back and I will have you back, by the way, as long as you want to come back I will read your book. Is there anything else that you want to share about the book that people should know about so they can go and get it and really encourage them? Because, resources, your story is already very important to me, but what else would you say? That would be a great reason to get that book.

Speaker 3: 35:59

Well, the book Will and Courage Winning the Battle Against Frontline Trauma. It's available online at Walmart, barnes and Noble, but Amazon. You can get it on paperback, hardcover, kindle or, my favorite's, Audible. I'm not much of a reader these days, people live busy lives but an audible you can listen to in the car, whether you're commuting to work or you're actually at work. You can listen to it in the bathroom when you're getting ready. You can listen to it at the gym, so there's really no excuse not to listen to it. I get not reading Not everybody's a reader but I will tell you, and I promise this, that if you do read or listen to it, I guarantee it will change your life.

Speaker 3: 36:39

And if you do, I want to hear from you. I want you to personally reach out to me. I'm on every social media platform you can imagine. I check my messages daily, I respond to everybody and I make myself available, and I truly want to hear your thoughts. I want to hear the impact that it had on you, on your relationships, on your career, on your life, and so I'm on LinkedIn, I'm on Facebook, instagram, tiktok X, parler Truth I mean, you name it, I'm on it. Just type in Sergeant, you got to put the Sergeant, sg Michael Sugru, and they'll come up and, like I said, I promise I'll get back to you.

Speaker 3: 37:20

I check my messages every single day but, like I said, this book is so unique because usually you have to either pick, you know, a gut-wrenching, true life story of a firefighter or police officer, a veteran, and that's all you get right, or you have to go get a psychology textbook, but in this case you get everything wrapped up into one. And we haven't talked about childhood trauma. That's going to be on our next interview and I talk about this in the book because this is huge and first responders don't want to talk about this here. I was one of them, but we're going to talk about this. The next episode, but the second half, doc Springer, like I said, she comes in, she explains everything, breaks it down, but very easy to understand terms. I mean literally anyone on the street that's never met a first responder before. You're going to truly see the human side behind the badge and the uniform. I mean, it's just, I'm excited about this because it's going to blow your mind, guaranteed Right.

Speaker 2: 38:19

I mean we can talk about adverse childhood events a long time. I do that in my training when I do CIT trainings out here and I do it for the community, but every police officer taking the trainings doing the count, I said, oh how many of you get over four.

Speaker 2: 38:41

They always look at me like you shouldn't have said that, but the point is is that that plays a factor? And, for the record, everyone who could go on YouTube I displayed that I bought the Audible. I wanted to show that it's available, very affordable. I will put all the show notes. Number two more importantly, I've worked with you, michael, just for a short amount of time, when we contacted each other, I think through LinkedIn. If I remember correctly, then I was following you on social media, through Facebook, through Instagram. You've responded to everything. You respond to my email. So what he's saying is no BS, it is absolutely true. So I wanted to put it out there, because sometimes people are like, oh, I'm not good at being nice to people, just to be nice, but this is the truth.

Speaker 2: 39:18

He responded to everything we wrote today twice. It took less than 15 minutes to get everything done for what we needed for this interview. We set up the interview, michael. I will have you back on. It's on my Audible now. I will be listening to it and I'd love to have you back on. Thank you so much.

Speaker 3: 39:35

Absolutely. I look forward to it, thank you.

Speaker 2: 39:38

Well, that completes episode 201. Michael Sugru great interview. Thank you so much, and I hope you join us for 202, where we'll talk to Kevin Cormine.

Speaker 1: 39:51

I think I got that right. Please like, subscribe and follow this podcast on your favorite platform. A glowing review is always helpful and, as a reminder, this podcast is for informational, educational and entertainment purposes only. If you're struggling with a mental health or substance abuse issue, please reach out to a professional counselor for consultation. If you are in a mental health crisis, call 988 for assistance. This number is available in the United States and Canada.