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Resilience Development in Action
Discover practical resilience strategies that transform lives. Join Steve Bisson, licensed mental health counselor, as he guides first responders, leaders, and trauma survivors through actionable insights for mental wellness and professional growth.
Each week, dive deep into real conversations about grief processing, trauma recovery, and leadership development. Whether you're a first responder facing daily challenges, a leader navigating high-pressure situations, or someone on their healing journey, this podcast delivers the tools and strategies you need to build lasting resilience.
With over 20 years of mental health counseling experience, Steve brings authentic, professional expertise to every episode, making complex mental health concepts accessible and applicable to real-world situations.
Featured topics include:
• Practical resilience building strategies
• First responder mental wellness
• Trauma recovery and healing
• Leadership development
• Grief processing
• Professional growth
• Mental health insights
• Help you on your healing journey
Each week, join our community towards better mental health and turn your challenges into opportunities for growth with Resilience Development in Action.
Resilience Development in Action
E.210 The Mental Men Return: Exploring Life After Career
What happens when your career ends but your life continues? The Mental Men, Andy Kang, Pat Rice, Chris Gordon, Dennis Sweeney, and Bob Cherney return in this deeply personal exploration of retirement, identity, and finding purpose beyond the job that defined you.
Bob Cherney, recently retired after decades as a therapist, shares his raw experience of waking up each morning still feeling "there's supposed to be stuff I'm supposed to do." This sentiment resonates powerfully with the group of mental health professionals who've dedicated their lives to helping others through crisis and trauma. Their conversation reveals the unexpected challenges of this transition – from the alarming statistic that 20% of first responders develop serious medical conditions within a year of retirement to the profound identity crisis that can follow when the uniform comes off.
The discussion delves into how retirement resembles a grief process – mourning not just the job itself but a way of being in the world. As Dennis reflects, it requires "acceptance of what we can or cannot do" while acknowledging "the grief of what you've lost." For professionals accustomed to emergency response and crisis intervention, the absence of that adrenaline and purpose creates a void that requires intentional filling.
Yet within these challenges lie opportunities for growth. The group shares strategies that have helped them navigate this transition: developing hobbies before retirement, volunteering in new contexts, maintaining social connections, and perhaps most importantly – staying curious. As Pat beautifully puts it, "The Fountain of Youth is composed of two elements: keep your legs as strong as you can and stay curious." This curiosity – this willingness to try new things and engage with life in fresh ways – emerges as perhaps the most powerful tool for navigating life's later chapters.
Whether you're approaching retirement, supporting someone who is, or simply interested in how we maintain purpose and meaning throughout life's transitions, this conversation offers wisdom, humor, and practical insights from those walking the path. Join us for this powerful exploration of what it means to redefine yourself when the career that shaped your identity comes to an end.
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Welcome to Resilience Development in Action, where strength meets strategy and courage to help you move forward. Each week, your host, steve Bisson, a therapist with over two decades of experience in the first responder community, brings you powerful conversations about resilience, growth and healing through trauma and grief. Through authentic interviews, expert discussions and real-world experiences, we dive deep into the heart of human resilience. We explore crucial topics like trauma recovery, grief processing, stress management and emotional well-being. This is Resilience Development in Action with Steve Bisson.
Speaker 2:Well, hi everyone and welcome to episode 210.
Speaker 2:If you haven't listened to episode 209, go back and listen to it. Becky Smoke was amazing. Stoicism, firefighters, home life a lot of different things. I really liked it. But episode 210 is the return of the mental men Recently retired Robert Turney, semi-retired Pat Rice, dennis Sweeney, chris Gordon, who's been retired a few years, and Andrew Kang, who is just a few years older than me and not close to retirement whatsoever. Always good to have the mental men on.
Speaker 2:But here is the interview GetFreeai. You heard me talk about it. I'm'm gonna keep on talking about it because I love it. I've had about a year and a half 18 months practice with it and I still enjoy it and it saves me time and it saves me energy. Freeai takes your note, makes a trans and what you're talking abouta client just press record and it does either transcript, it does a subjective and an objective, with a letter if needed for your client and for whoever might need it. So for $99 a month, it saves me so much time that it's worthwhile, and if you do it for a whole year, guess what? You get 10% off. More importantly, this is what you got to remember because you are my audience that listens to Resilience Development in Action, what you got to remember, because you are my audience that listens to resilience development in action. If you do listen to this and you want to use freeai, put in the code Steve15 in the promo code area Steve50, and you will get $50 off in addition to everything we just talked about. Get freed from writing your notes, get freed from even writing your transcripts. Use that to your advantage. Freeai, a great service. Go to getfreeai and you will get one of the best services that will save you time and money, and I highly encourage you to do so.
Speaker 2:Well, hi everyone and welcome to episode 210, the Return of the Mental Men. This has just been a great group of people. You've followed me from Finding your Way Through Therapy and to this podcast. But, more importantly, I've known Chris since I started my career in this field in 1999. I've known Dennis since probably 2001,. And Bob since 2001, 2002. So you guys are very important to me and we have a recent retiree full-time retiree from a job and still working part-time, but still a retiree. So I want to introduce everyone but him right now. I introduce Pat Rice, chris Gordon, dennis Sweeney, andy Kang and finally, the recently full-time retired, still part-time working, dr Robert Cherney.
Speaker 3:Thanks. Thanks, steve, I really do appreciate it. And you know, one of the things that strikes me is it's been a little over a month now is that I still have to watch how I, when I wake up, like I feel like there's supposed to be stuff I'm supposed to do, I should do I you know I have to do and then I realized, wait a second, I've got time, and that that the first thing is just trying to slow down. I think it's enough so you can relax and enjoy. And that's really. I used to fantasize about it, you know, like wow, it's gonna and it's. It's a wonderful feeling once you allow yourself to have it.
Speaker 3:And one of the great things about learning how to work hard is that you can do well at your job. And one of the tough things about having it ingrained in you so deeply is that when you don't have to do it anymore, there's a, there's a void. You know there's a gap, so it doesn't mean that. But I've been lucky enough to have, you know, friends and and and some some activities that I've gotten involved in pretty quickly because I knew, for me at least, I wanted to explore some stuff. So golf, for example, is one of the things that I've just taken up after 20 years, and I'm very blessed with people who aren't critical. So that's great. I appreciate it.
Speaker 3:But something has to keep this thing going, and it doesn't mean that it has to go at the same rate. It just means that, for me at least I've read a fair amount on retirement and even just aging I just don't want it to deteriorate much more than it already has. So and that's kind of a joke, but it's also you know you do start to see things like memory, or you know some of the details. It's so interesting to see that change over time. And you can either accept it and try to do the best you can, or you can fight against it and be angry. I'm leaving that part, the second part behind. I'm really to do the best you can, or you can fight against it and be angry. I'm leaving that part, the second part behind. I'm really trying to just, you know, all right, what can I do? To basically integrate myself into a different life, piece by piece, by just trying some things.
Speaker 3:And I would encourage anyone who's going into retirement to try to make a plan before they, you know, actually stop. And if you don't have one. You know, look around. I mean something as simple as volunteering is something that can make you feel really good, because giving it away, you know you get to keep it, which is the serenity of helping others. So we've been fortunate I think, all of us in this group to be able to help others for many, many years and I just feel like it's a blessing. But again, you know, for example, if you're a firefighter or a police officer or you know an ambulance driver or an ambulance, you know EMT, those are high stress, high intensity jobs that I think we kind of get addicted to to some extent, and I'm using that word very loosely, but I think we learn how to cope with the intensity of it and that intensity is a double-edged sword once you let go, you know. Those are my initial thoughts, and well, let me.
Speaker 2:Let me say something that where I know I don't want to like. First of all, I'm going to give you a little tribute here, bob. I don't think my career would be where it is if it wasn't for you and the wisdom that you brought me by being yourself throughout the years, in a very hard job in a community setting for so many years, really inspired me to continue being myself, and I always want to thank you for that, because you never wanted me to compromise who I was and that's why, like when I got the fit with the parole office in the jail, you're like you're made for this steve and now, working with first responders, you were one of the first people like you are made for this steve. So I want to thank you for always recognizing me and seeing me, which sometimes can be hard in a community mental health setting. There's nothing against any company, it's just hard sometimes because you're dealing with so much and so much intensity.
Speaker 2:Having said that, the intensity that we face in a community mental health setting is not unsimilar to the intensity of first responders face on a regular basis, and that becomes a little bit addicting sometimes. Right, there's something about helping a lot of people makes us feel really good and that when that goes away, that feels weird. I don't know if anyone wants to chime in or say I'm wrong. I'm okay with being wrong, but I just want to throw that out because the statistic is staggering. For first responders, I think something like 20% of them have a serious medical condition within 20, within a year. 20% is within a year of their retirement.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Thank you.
Speaker 3:Steve. I just wanted to thank Steve for that nice well you're. I'm happy that it impacted you that way. And I want to comment on what you just said, because I actually got bronchitis and then pneumonia two weeks after I left Advocates and I haven't said that to many people, but I didn't know what it was at first. And then I got the test x-ray. So I have a feeling I let down something that allowed me my immune system to kind of say all right, buddy, we're going to slow you down, so Withdrawal, I guess. So yeah, so it was fast. You know, I was fascinated by it because it's a pain. It was a pain in the ass, but at the same time I I realized okay, this is your body telling you something's going on here, so I'm better Jump in please.
Speaker 5:Yeah, I'd like to add a few thoughts. I'm further down the road than you, bob. I retired two or three years ago now, so I've sort of gotten used to it, but it was extremely disruptive to me, in spite of the fact that I left a job that I loved at my own choice. I wasn't forced out, it wasn't any kind of an emergency, but I found myself very, very distressed and discombobulated and confused and I had a really rough time. It coincided with, as so often happens, the onset of a new physical condition.
Speaker 5:I was first diagnosed with Parkinson's disease, so a lot of things were swirling around, but it was very difficult and I was used to being a medical director and a psychiatrist and a person in you know, sort of in charge, and suddenly I wanted in charge of shit and my world was really, really rocked. I also was very aware that I've seen way too often people die when they retire, so I think it's a genuinely dangerous phase of life For me. It led me to go back into therapy. I've had three courses of psychotherapy in my life. This was the most recent and it was incredibly helpful. So I just want to encourage people if you do retire and you find yourself at sea. You got a lot of company and you're not alone, and it can be an opportunity for growth, as miserable as it sometimes is.
Speaker 4:I'll say something. It's like I forgot that I spent 20 years working in a hospital. There's various roles there, but the chief role for the last half of that was training interns in psychiatric triage, emergency room evaluations and other types of crisis management like that, among other things. And as you guys were chatting in the beginning talking about this, it occurred to me that I don't miss the politics of institution and the paperwork and all of that. I don't even miss the patient care in the way, because I went into a private practice setting which I missed, the collegial network there and everything. What I do now is a little bit of this. You know this type of work. You know this type of work, but I really miss the emergency room.
Speaker 4:Oh my goodness, it's adrenaline, it's primal, it matters, it's meaningful, it's you're in the moment For all of the folks that Steve helps. You know the first responders. That's the compelling stuff. You can call it adrenaline, but it's the fact that there are times we've all had those times when you're sitting and being with somebody on a unit or something like that and you realize you may be in a life or death moment here, somebody's life and that matters. I mean that's significant to you know it's. You know I've always told every student that there'll come a day when you may be seeing someone on the worst day of their life and you have to be prepared for that moment. But when you get used to it or good at it, and then you walk away from it.
Speaker 4:And I walked away from the hospital with one week's notice. My choice One week's notice because of an administrative shift that was not compatible to my way of of operating, I didn't think and so it was a little hail and farewell they had me was more like a wake, because some of the people just learned that morning that I was really going. I guess I threatened it long enough but I, I really went and it was shocking. Thank God I had a practice to go to but that hadn't been. You know really.
Speaker 4:But you know, as time goes by I talk to people. I mentor a physician who has been in emergency medicine. I have a nephew that's an emergency medicine physician. So it's, the ER is compelling because it matters. And first responders they do work that matters in the moment. They have skills. They can rise above a lot of the emotion in the moment and focus that energy on helping. But there's an exhaustion to it. That is exhilarating is an odd way of saying it. The last thing I'll say is that what I've learned is and I do a lot of volunteer, counterintuitive volunteering. I basically have several years of shoveling horse poop and mucking out stalls in a rescue for equine, the assisted living for abused horses, you know really, which surprised me as to how meaningful that is in a way, around the land dolphins.
Speaker 4:I don't know a few other things, but the things that I have heard and I can say in my own experience as a 77-year-older is that the Fountain of youth is composed of two elements Keep your legs as strong as you can. Keep your body moving as best you can. Stay curious. Stay curious Because if you lose your curiosity and my only curiosity is when does Oprah come on, or something like that I'm now not evolving, I'm now de-evolving and you know, regardless of what happens to my body and God knows, we've all had challenges and things replaced. Thank God they got a replacement part, but it's staying interested in things and you know you're interested in people. Everyone in this room is interested in people and I learn about people in different things. And you know you're interested in people. Everyone in this room is interested in people and I learn about people and different things. You know mocking out a stall next to somebody and you find commonalities.
Speaker 4:The beauty of those volunteer jobs is you find commonalities.
Speaker 4:You you're with people that are very different in their life, probably politically and at every spectrum, but you're there for the same reason, which is altruistic, and that that is an energy field that heals everybody and it's back to old style community, and I've said that you know in the old days you might really not like the guy that you who's a bunch of property and you really think that they're a jerk, but if their barn burns down you're there with everybody else the next day to help them build it back.
Speaker 4:That's community. And the volunteer stuff got me more into community than you know. It helped to let me not miss the community that I left, that wonderful community I started with with Bob and Dennis back when I started and then the others that have followed it. You know, in the last community involved Andy, we were in a practice together and you know I value those communities and that's why this is important and that's why we all play golf together, you know it really is, it's the people, and what we share is our state of being now rather than really the history.
Speaker 4:We had, bob and I sat in the tailgate of my car yesterday after playing golf and we were thinking back about when we started and Dennis was about to join us and I said you know, it was an amazing group of people, we did amazing work and we can be very proud of it. And now it's to take the same kind of pride in retiring well but still being relevant and useful and helpful, to be of good service or of good purpose, especially to the community. Now more than ever, boy, do we need community now, and so it's an honor to know you guys and to have all the outside contact. You know, breakfast with Chris and Dennis and things like that. I love it all.
Speaker 3:Well said, pat, well said.
Speaker 2:Hear, hear. But we also what I miss. You talk about an emergency room. I'm with you, pat, I miss emergency room. What I love about it and it's going to sound weird, but let me finish my thought I love the dissension, and what I mean by that is hey, I really think this person should be left out of hospital. I call Chris. Chris says Steve, what are you talking about? Blah, blah, blah. But what about this, what about that? And then you exchange and, even if you disagreed, and you come out to an outcome together, there's this growth that you can't get anywhere else because you're interacting with people, and it's the same thing for first responders and everything else. I didn't always agree with Dennis or Bob or Pat or Andy or Chris, but we always got to a great conclusion for the client, for what's best for the client, and that's what I think I miss the most about the Morgan emergency room and working in general, because the dissension actually brings growth, if we all agree. To be kind of freaking boring.
Speaker 6:Not to mention impossible. I'll jump in here, Bob congratulations.
Speaker 3:Thank you, andy, I'm looking forward to it.
Speaker 6:I can tell you're in a good place by the huge grin on your face. I know.
Speaker 3:I talked to the neighbors about three days ago and I just said you're probably going to see me smiling more Now I'm semi-retired, you know. And they go, what? So it's nice, it's nice, but thank you.
Speaker 6:I wouldn't think that that was even possible for you. But your shoulders are lower, you can. You can really see it. So congrats, Well-earned. You know, for everybody here it's it's well-earned. I don't know if I'm the youngest, Steve, I might have you beat, I'm 54.
Speaker 2:Until mid of July, I'm 49.
Speaker 6:Believe me, I'm calling on to it till then You're the baby in this crowd right here. But I'm 54 and I'm still in the fantasy stage about retirement. I'm still imagining how great it's going to be and how it's going to be like heaven and there'll be no problems with it at all and everything will be just smooth sailing as I make that decision whenever that comes, I know, of course, just working with people and knowing you guys, that it's not always so simple as that, but you know it's still something that I'm looking forward to. I'm still excited about it for the reasons you stated, pat, really about trying to do something different. Pat, really about trying to do something different.
Speaker 6:I, my life has been really marked by some pretty big, wholesale changes that have happened at various stages, and those things always just renew my, my vigor for things, because so much stuff comes towards me that's new and I got to learn new stuff and it, you know, whether that's always been voluntary or not is really not the point it's. It's more just keeping yourself nimble, keeping yourself interacting with other people and, with the new circumstances of life, trying to use the old skills I've learned in a new way. You know, that kind of stuff. I think that's always available to us if we see it, you know, if we allow it, I was. I was in pat's shop this weekend before you guys went out and he was fixing one of my golf clubs that I had snapped.
Speaker 4:Not in anger, not in anger.
Speaker 6:But just watching you go through your moves, pat was like a ballet down there, there was no wasted movement. And it made me think, ah, look at that, that's that's gained over all of these years. And you told me I've probably done this with a thousand golf clubs and but but that excellent, that expertise you gained, it made me want to go learn something like that. It made me want to put more time into into what I do. Um know, I play music. I went home, I practiced. I was like, oh, I got to do my thousand, whatever the equivalent of that is. So anyway, I'll stop it there, but congrats again, bob.
Speaker 2:Thank you. Thank you, but I think that what you're talking about is so important we talked about it I think Bob touched on it before about volunteering, part time work, whatever the case may be, but also kind of doing like you know, the ballet that Pat does with golf stuff is of the day. It's also kind of those. Having those hobbies in place prior to that's so essential. You know part of my fear. You talk about being we're. We're both babies. I'm going to put us in the same category. Five years, ain't that different? But that's my biggest fear is that I've, you know, dedicated my life my two teenage girls and one of them's going to start college in a couple of years. I've worked all my life. My two teenage girls and one of them is going to start college in a couple of years. I've worked all my life doing this now In the US. That's all I've done.
Speaker 2:Part of my fear in my retirement. You say you're in the honeymoon phase. I have the dreadful phase of like, who the hell am I if I don't have a job? I don't know, dennis, if you have any wisdom, as you usually do. But I really want to throw that out because I see that with first responders. They lose their role and they didn't have anything else because that's all they've been. And the same thing for me. My fear is I've been such a therapist all my life or counselor, or whatever the hell we want to call me that I'm going to lose my identity once I retire. Chris touched on that too.
Speaker 7:It's interesting because my first foray into retirement was actually back in 2006, when I had a heart attack.
Speaker 7:I was out for three months with the idea of not being able to engage but also, at different times, really enjoying not having to engage, and at that point I started to look forward to the time that I could retire.
Speaker 7:And well, I still don't know, I'm still trying to figure it out, but it's it.
Speaker 7:To me, it's about transition. It's about being able to accept both what I don't have to do anymore but also what I can't do anymore, and there are a lot of can'ts right now and that is that's, I think, for me, where the grief really is. But if I can accept that and, you know, sort of help myself to do what I can as opposed to trying to do what I can't, then it's made it much easier and I also find that I don't feel a need to have to be as productive, but I do feel a need to be more self-aware and it's added a different spiritual dimension to my life and I feel grateful that I can slow down and my conversations with each of you has also reinforced the ability, the capacity, the appropriateness of doing that, because you all have that mindset and I appreciate what you've given me in terms of that. But it's all part of a transition and acceptance, and I'm also very grateful for being able to get to this point in life, as confusing sometimes, as painful sometimes and as joyful as it is.
Speaker 2:I'm really grateful to be here I heard two very important things grief and acceptance, and I think that that's part of the process of retiring acceptance of what we can or cannot do. I think that's a very hard one to think about accepting that you've done your part, this is a new phase in your life, and accepting that's where you're at, and the grief of what you've lost and what you used to have In some ways. In 2006, you got the chance to learn to grieve the possible career before you had to go full retirement a possible career before you had to go full retirement.
Speaker 7:I mean, that's what I'm hearing anyway Early in my career. One of the seminal phrases that I would hear regularly is that people would be much happier if they could go about trying to get what they can have versus what they can't have. That's actually in many ways to our sort of Western culture is counterintuitive.
Speaker 4:I'm more Eastern in my philosophies, as you all know, and I believe that we choose this in kind of the Buddhist tradition. We choose this path, this life, because we have things we need to learn and one of them is that we forget everything we know about what we are, who we are, this energy package that we are, and the job is to scavenger hunt here to find it, to make the time and the practice, the ritual practices that allow us to discover who we are. We do it in the context of relationship and community and all these other matrices that allow us to find mirrors. You know one of the halfway houses I went into to do some volunteer work years ago, the old Serenity House in Natick. Sandy and Ruth used to get guys from different groups to come and do a commitment, like we need the thing painted or this or that. But I noticed one of their mirrors had one of those Dymo label things on the bottom that said it was right in the hallway and it said you're looking at your only solution or problem today and I've never forgotten that. That's kind of something I think about a lot and that discovering who I am has relied upon, like this little Hollywood squares thing here.
Speaker 4:All of you have been a mirror for me in in many ways and to discover this, and you know my mentors, you all know dick, uh, dick fleck, um, amazing human being and and uh, um, a minister, chaplain, psychologist. He was an amazing guy, but he said it's all grief work. He taught me that very early guy, but he said it's all grief work. He taught me that very early. It's all what. It's all grief work. Oh, it's all grief work. We're learning to say goodbye, but we replace what we say goodbye to with new things. You let go of one door that you've shut, another door opens and that's the curiosity.
Speaker 4:And when I, when I was thinking a bit then is that the I get my heart attacks out of the way. Um, in my mid-30s, um, and it was. You know, that's what changed my life. It stopped everything for a while and allowed me to save my life and and um, but it's. Those are the moments when it feels compellingly like I'm not getting my way, but I'm actually getting knocked into a different trajectory, and I think those are the little two-by-fours upside the backside that the universe administers, that I signed up for. Please, when I need, I do that today to whatever my concept of my higher beings or whatever is. I need some help here. So just knock me into some sensibility here.
Speaker 4:I couldn't do any of this. From day one I knew I couldn't do any of this without something greater than me. I've stolen. I used to say if you steal from everybody, it's research, if you steal from just one person, it's plagiarism. So you know, and I'm not sure I can say anything truly unique, because I've found such a rich environment of knowledge and I still have it today, because you know when I know that there are many people when I don't know what to do with a certain thing in life or clinical thing, whatever, I have a incredible Rolodex. That is an old term. Look it up. Oh you younger people.
Speaker 2:Well, you talked about a dino earlier, now you're talking about Rolodex. People are going to be like searching on Google for this.
Speaker 4:When you see the things on social media, do you know what this thing is? I think, heck, I still got one. I might have two, but it's a privilege. There's an old Irish saying that says you can't complain about being old because many people don't get the privilege we have to get good, as my mom told me once. She said there's two things. Probably she was about my age now when she said this to me. She said and I said this to Bob yesterday I said you know. She said there'll come a time when staying alive is a full-time job, you know, and you're never too old to enjoy your childhood. Right, I like that one. She'd spend 10 minutes in a line in a store with people and they wanted to have a reunion.
Speaker 1:It was just that type of spirit. I'm serious.
Speaker 4:They'd take her out to lunch after the post office People she'd never met. They'd say let's go to lunch and continue it. I'm serious, but it was because she was engaging and she found curiosity in everything and I learned from her basically to be curious about what. Does this mean? This is slowing me down. I don't like it. I'm not supposed to like it, but what can I learn from it? And that's changed things, and I'll say this. One last thing is that my wife has. I've had the privilege of trying to help my wife through some major health challenges and she's fine today Amazing.
Speaker 4:But what I learned, what changed me, is that when I was asked to do something or had an opportunity to do something, especially when she was you know, I basically retired faster to take care of her. Now I don't have to do as much of that. But is that I changed my way of thinking from do I want to do this or can I do this? And when I just get out of my own way and say no, I really don't want to do that, you know, maybe it's in the self-care way, but I said I'll do it just because I think it's the right thing to do for her now or because I can do it. And then the doors opened up.
Speaker 4:I'm working now two years in an equine rescue because I wanted to drive her there because she couldn't drive it when she was tired and do stuff there. So I'll drive you and then I'll go for a walk or whatever. I was there 10 minutes and a guy that was three years older than me went by with a wheelbarrow. I got my old golf shoes on. I said I can't watch this. I got to be a part of it, you know. So it opened doors for me just being open to trying things that I never would have tried before, and that was one of the things that creating the time allowed me to do the time to just give it a shot. So anyway, I've talked too much, forgive me.
Speaker 3:Excellent. Now, you know, pat, one of the things that strikes me about what you said and there's an awful lot of wisdom there, but I call it the acceptance versus the struggle against, and I think about how often, you know, I have this, excuse me, I have this thing about well, you got to find your limits before you can like know where they are, and I think that's true. But once you find your limits, you know especially as you age, I think then it then there's, there's, there's either acceptance or there's a struggle against, and I I really have, I've I've had to work on that one, and Buddhism actually helped, has helped me, as you know, in certain aspects. So I but there's, you know, I also came across something that says there's no growth without pain, and I thought I think there was Rumi who said that or something, and I thought to myself, ouch, that's kind of a tough one. But you know, I think curious and humble, excuse me, and being humble is really important because you know, as much as we learn, we're just. You know, there's a saying we're just another bozo on the bus, on the one hand, and yet I think it's really important for us to understand that for everything we learn. We have the ability to pass it on or we have the ability to utilize it. And you know, I think I was blessed the last couple of years because I had several clients who were in retirement for like six months a year and they were coming in to say I don't know who I am, what I am or what I'm supposed to do.
Speaker 3:And you know, as we explored that, you know, and I knew this beforehand. But you know you can't wait till you're retired to start the process of trying to figure out what you'd like to try, and it's, you know, so, with these and they were all men, by the way, they were all men. And you know what can we do to discover and at least try out alternative things to occupy time and provide structure and meaning. And that's not a, you know, meaning becomes a different kind of thing after a while. You know we've all had this profession where meaning is built into it. But on the other hand, you know, if you've been, you know, in the corporate environment for you know 40 years, you know now where does the meaning come from? Meaning, you know, money isn't just money's money. And I think and I saw several people you know, try to figure out. All right, how do I do that again? You don't do it again, and you know. So we kind of got into various things. You know some people did some volunteer works. One guy became a livery driver, you know, for limos. One guy became a substitute teacher, and you know I also saw people focusing on their grandchildren, you know which, if they're lucky enough to have them, that becomes a very meaningful activity.
Speaker 3:Or reconnecting with your children when you didn't have enough time or space, or reconnecting with friends. You know there's an opportunity here. You know, I think we all get so preoccupied sometimes with the amount of. I just call them, the have-tos have turned into the wanna-dos. You know, we had a lot of have-tos and all of a sudden we don't have as many have-tos, we just have enough. Now what do we do? But I think it's a very normal thing to go through. But I think the difference is, like you said, pat, trying to keep both the brain and the body engaged so that you can continue to function at a level that's not, it's more, it's in a positive direction, even though as we age, there's a normal deterioration. So you know, I just really think that giving ourselves some time and space to figure that kind of stuff out is important versus trying to be efficient and get as much done as possible, because all of a sudden you realize you're just making things up and that's not a good thing how many times can you really mow the lawn?
Speaker 6:you know, dennis, you were. You were talking about the struggle of can have versus can't have. I'd I'd add one other one to that, which is is what do you already have? That's where the grandchildren are, that's where your hobbies are, that's where your skills can lead you. We have so much. We've already put all of this time, effort and energy into becoming the people that we are.
Speaker 6:You don't, at retirement, I imagine, lay all that down and say effort and energy into becoming the people that we are. You don't, at retirement, I imagine, lay all that down and say, okay, I'm a completely different person now, but therein can also lie many paths. Right, how do I use the skills that I learned, talking to people every day in a new context, but in a way that still gives me something at the end of it, that feels good and that means something to me. And you know I look forward to being able to figure that out. But I'm still deriving meaning from what I'm doing, including being here with you guys, you know, just being able to talk about this stuff in a non-judgmental way, in a way where I'm not having to be difficult on myself or rough in my judgment, my self-judgment about it, but where I can be open about yeah, I really don't know. I really don't know what's next, but I have faith in my abilities and I know what I know and even though that pales in comparison to what I don't know, it's still something.
Speaker 2:Taking back a little bit on what you said, I'm going to quote life's a journey, not a destination to this, because you said I'm looking forward to figuring it out when I turn to our semi-retired or retired people. Have you figured it out yet? I'm very serious with my question. The point is is that it's because you don't? It's we're looking for a destination when in fact it's all a journey? You know, if you would have said five years ago, you know what?
Speaker 2:All six of us are going to be sitting on a call here. I'm going to put that on a podcast. People are going to be listening in hundreds and hundreds let's be realistic here people I wouldn't have believed you, but here we are and that's the journey that brought us here. The fact that Bob is now going to join us for golf Wouldn't have bet on that six months ago, never mind a year ago. But the point is is do we ever figure it out? I mean, I look to you guys because you're retired, but I want to know if we figure it out, because I haven't figured out anything yet there's no one answer.
Speaker 3:I don't think it's a great question. I used to think this about my son. I'd say, well, let's expose him to a bunch of stuff and see what he wants to get his teeth into, what interests him, whether or not it's sports or music or something that has to do with something totally different. And I think that way now about retirement. To an extent, I'm going to try a bunch of stuff. Yesterday I actually went to a chess club that I joined in Ashland and I took a lesson before I golfed. And you know chess is, you know it's a really fascinating thing. And when I told the guy I was a psychologist, he looked at me and he said psychology is a really big part of chess and I thought it was just interesting. But that's just something I'm trying because I've always been interested in it.
Speaker 3:But I don't think there's a. You know, maybe some people will get to a point and I think this is probably true that they feel very content. You know, going to Daniel's table and you know, and doing some volunteer work. I think it's a matter of how much do you want to get involved in and how many things do you want to try. But my theory is try something and when you find things you enjoy, keep them on the list. But I don't think there's one answer, for you know and maybe some people feel like there is you know, there are a lot of people who just do one or two things and there's no criticism here. I just think that it's more of a process than it is an endpoint.
Speaker 7:Steve, I can only give you my answer to your question, and my answer is no, it's not something you can figure out, because as soon as you think you figured it out, it changes, and then it's all about starting from scratch or somewhere in around there.
Speaker 5:You know, for me it's been a tremendous comfort to me in my retirement that I have a great network of friends. I feel extremely wealthy in my friendships and I think a lot of people don't have networks of friends. A lot of people are very lonely and I've read the statistics but I can't cite them. The number of people who cannot identify one single friend or two friends.
Speaker 5:It's an enormous number and I think that loneliness is a tremendously great challenge, and if you are in that predicament and you retire from a place that provided sort of an artificial or quasi network of connection, it can feel really horrible, horrible. So you know, my counsel to people of every age is build your networks, and I love the idea that you went and had a chess lesson. That is so great. That is great. People are revisiting the question of their spiritual life and maybe you were raised one thing, but now you're a grown-up, you can choose your own path if you want to. You don't have to stick with the religion you were reared in. So the idea of moving into a proactive stance, about taking up activities that bring you into connection with other people I remember one of you wise guys said that the balm of providing care to others is so good for people. So those are my thoughts.
Speaker 4:When you talked about. Have you found it? I've listened to all of you wise beings today and what I hear is a common theme. Whatever you've been through, wherever you are right now, I hear gratitude. And I think it was the fabulous Aesop you know Aesop's fables that said gratitude is what allows what you have right now to be enough, and it's the bedrock of most 12-step communities. It's, you know, the gratitude is what many spiritualists believe that the source, energy, the source of it, is being grateful. You know it's. Grace is a root of the same thing, and I look for the. It is to be grateful in the moment, to stay keep. I think it was Dick that used to tell me to keep your head where your rear end is, keep your mind where your rear end is. Don't get ahead of yourself, but go backwards and staying in the moment.
Speaker 5:My head is frequently where my rear end is.
Speaker 1:That's why we call you Yoda.
Speaker 5:Lodged up there very firmly, that's right.
Speaker 4:But I mean, look at this, the ability to just know that this is exactly where I'm supposed to be right now. I'm not in the wrong place if I'm able to be with me. And I had a hardest time. I spent a lot of my early life, the first third of my life, running away from me for a lot of reasons that I've had to learn why. And now I can remember again the Dominican telling me. He said why don't you try just getting on your knees? I said was that like an old Catholic thing? He says oh no. He said you can't run on your knees. That's a great place to talk to the higher power, that's great. And there you go Suddenly.
Speaker 4:I'm open to it because it got it out of a metaphor that for me was off-putting or something distracting and into a metaphor that I needed to stop long enough. My knees don't allow me to contemplate the universe that way now, but I learned how to sit with it and the it to me is to look for gratitude and whatever's going on, especially if it's negative. If it feels negative, there must be a lesson here. Sometimes the lesson is patience or acceptance.
Speaker 4:I've heard that from you guys today as well, and I've gotten much better at it and when I seem to lose that scope, my wife will say isn't it time for a meeting or something? Do you got an AA meeting tonight? Or you know, like that I get the unsolicited and incredibly useful feedback which I didn't feel in the past that it was useful, which I didn't feel in the past that it was useful. But we've spent so much time together in the last five or six years from COVID on and our two illness especially that I'm much more apt to take feedback from someone that I wouldn't take it from before, because it's generally well-meaning and it's for her peace of mind as much as mine and that's a growth spurt for me certainly.
Speaker 2:I think that you know, as we wrap up here, a couple of things that came to mind. You said you know. Earlier you said something about where you know if we think for many people it's just sharing ideas or something to that effect. If not, it's plagiarism. I'll go even a step further. That's plagiarism. I'll go even a step further Me saying something to Bob might not have the same impact as Pat using these same exact words, and sometimes it's the right person and how it's delivered.
Speaker 2:That's key. And I think that when you talk about gratitude and attitude, and the gratefulness that I have for this group is immeasurable, for me this is you know Dennis was my mentor there. I said it was, I didn't say currently we're colleagues. You know, I didn't know Andy and I was introduced to Andy via Pat. Who Pat was introduced to me? Via Bob and Dennis and I worked with Chris since 99 and I had lost touch and then reached out and he was excited to join. When you know how to go, get your network and know who people are around you, you're never alone and learning to be able to have that humbleness that at the end of the day, we're all the same, we all. No one knows the answers. No one knows everything. Then I think that's what I take from this meeting today and how I can move forward and hoping to get some answers not all of the answers from retirement.
Speaker 3:You know that's really is very poignant, but it's also it's very true, and I keep on thinking about the first responders and how that defines you. I would imagine it defines you in certain ways, and I just want to encourage people to try to not be afraid to try new things, whether or not it's recontacting the old friends or trying something totally different than what it is you've been doing, because I think some people get stuck in the and I may fail stage or what happens if, or will I make a fool out of myself? Or, you know, I don't know, I know how to move the pieces on a chessboard and I don't know anything about strategy and I get I'm getting a kick out of watching some of the stuff that is possible when you start to think differently and part and that's part of why I'm doing it to think differently. But patience is a big thing with yourself and with others. So I'm grateful for you guys, that's for sure. I'm still working on the patience.
Speaker 2:Well, on that happy note, I'm going to say thank you guys. We're going to do this again, probably in the fall. I meant every word. Congratulations, bob. Very well deserved. Now we can actually go to Depot Street Tavern and have our breakfast without any judgment. That would be great. Thank you guys.
Speaker 4:Thank you, steve, thank you.
Speaker 2:Well, that concludes Episode 210. Again, guys welcome, steve. Thank you, steve. Thank you. Well, that concludes Episode 210. Again, guys welcome. For those of you who are interested, there's going to be a new feature that's available. It's a paid service and it's going to be called Resilience Development in Action After Dark, or RDA After Dark, which is what I'm hoping that you guys can go listen to it.
Speaker 2:It's a brand-new thing I'm. You guys can go listen to it. It's a brand new thing I'm doing, so go listen to it. It's an insight about what we talked about and stuff like that, and there won't be any fancy stuff, but it really is a deeper dive into what we talked about on the podcast and I hope that's helpful for people. Go listen to it, all right.
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