Resilience Development in Action

E.228 What Happens When We Stop Keeping Pain A Secret

• Steve Bisson, Blythe Landry • Season 12 • Episode 228

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Some conversations ask you to sit up a little straighter. This one asks you to relax your shoulders, tell the truth, and feel what you’ve been carrying. We dive into the messy overlap of trauma and grief in first responder and military cultures, where silence is rewarded and honesty is too often punished, and we share a different path built on authenticity, peer support, and practical skills.

Blythe Landry joins us to map the line between privacy and secrecy, and why crossing it keeps people sick. We talk about ethical self-disclosure—when a helper shares only to serve the client—and how human presence beats formal scripts and stiff suits for building trust. You’ll hear why fit-for-duty vibes can re-trigger rank-based fear, why plain language matters, and how showing up as a person first invites others to do the same. We also confront the system costs of looking away: moved abusers, muted reports, moral injury, and the downstream mix of suicide risk, substance use, gambling, overwork, and other behavioral addictions that masquerade as coping.

Grief work sits at the center. Acute grief isn’t a two-week arc; it softens when people gain tools, witness, and meaning. We break down how trauma shapes worldview and therefore grief, and why evidence-based skills plus an honest community can turn pain into purpose without sugarcoating the loss. Blythe shares a trauma-informed grief coaching track designed for grievers and peer supporters—exactly the kind of culture-fit training that spreads healing inside agencies that need it most.

If you serve, love someone who serves, or lead a team where the unspoken rule is “suck it up,” this conversation offers a better rule: say what’s true, get support, and refuse secrecy. Subscribe, share this with a teammate, and leave a review with one insight you’ll bring back to your crew. Your words might be the reason someone reaches out.


Reach Blythe through her website at https://www.blythelandry.com/

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SPEAKER_00:

Welcome to Resilience Development in Action, where strength meets strategy and courage to help you move forward. Each week, your host, Steve Bisolk, a therapist with over two decades of experience in the first responder community, brings you powerful conversations about resilience, growth, and healing through trauma and grief. Through authentic interviews, expert discussions, and real-world experiences, we dive deep into the heart of human resilience. We explore crucial topics like trauma recovery, grief processing, stress management, and emotional well-being. This is Resilience Development in Action with Steve B.

SPEAKER_01:

Sol.ai. You heard me talk about it. I'm gonna keep on talking about it because I love it. I've had about a year and a half, 18 minutes of practice with it, and I still enjoy it. And it saves me time and it saves me energy. Free.ai takes your note, makes a transcript of what you're talking about. And it does either a transcript, it does a subjective, and an objective with a letter if needed for your client. And for whoever makes it. So for$99 a month, it saves me so much time that it's worthwhile. And if you do it for a whole year, guess what? 10% off. More important. This is what you got because you are my audience. If you do 10% of this and you want to use free.ai, put in the code C50.5. And you will get$50 off in addition to everything that you're stuck. Get free from writing your notes. Get free from even writing your transcripts. Use that to your advantage. Free.ai, a great service. Go to getfree.ai and you will get one of the best services that will save you time and money. And I highly encourage you to do so. Well, hi everyone. Welcome to episode 228. If you haven't listened to episode 227, it was with Amanda Rizzoli. We talked about mental health in uh Milford, Massachusetts, with working with the police. We talked also about being a spouse of a law enforcement officer and the effects on that. So go back and listen to that. But today is a returning guest. But to me, it's not a returning guest, it's a returning friend. I've worked with Blythe at a company for a couple of years, and she is one of the few people I stayed in touch with. And we've worked on projects together, we've exchanged clients at times. Uh, but just a wonderful human being. And look, I can even say I have her book, and it's great.

unknown:

It's mine.

SPEAKER_02:

It is.

SPEAKER_01:

Well, welcome Blight Landry to Resilience Development in Action. Sorry, old habits die hard.

SPEAKER_02:

Oh, yeah, I get it. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

And for those of you who may, you know, hopefully this sounds really good. It sounds like I hear her fine, she hears me fine, but my microphone decided not to work today. So hey, we're just flying by the seat of our pants. But that's kind of what we've always done. Me and her, we one of the things I want to tribute to her, and this is the truth. I have a lot of trust in Blythe. I've worked with her for a long time. And she sends me referrals or she says, Hey, I need this. We don't need to say thank you. We don't need to kiss up, ask for stuff that we don't need. We just jump to what needs to be done. And yeah, once in a while we catch up on our lives. But ultimately, it's a show of respect, not that we're all business, but that there's a time for both. And there's not like, well, you weren't nice about this. There's none of that crap. And I really admire Blight for that as a friend, uh, as a colleague, but someone as a human being, I just truly love you. And I want to start off by saying that.

SPEAKER_02:

I feel the same way, Steve. I think you're amazing. We've always had a good and a wonderful connection right from the beginning.

SPEAKER_01:

I mean, we're not going to talk about the company itself. I try not to promote things I don't believe in. But I do remember one thing is that something whacked was, and I'm not going to say what it was. And it was in Slack, I believe. You wrote to me privately, like, do you think this makes any sense? And then we exchanged. I think that's how we really started to connect because we were kind of like, as a professional, this is wrong. And the reason why I don't say word names, because I don't want to be called slandering any company, but the truth is that we got along 99% of the time. So uh, but again, I'm describing you from my point of view, which is probably more friendly. But uh, how about you introduce yourself again? I know you've introduced yourself on episode, I want to say 41, right? But you know, 228 episodes now, so almost 200 down the road.

SPEAKER_02:

Maybe people can I admire your uh your consistency, Steve. It's a beautiful thing. And I know this podcast is helping a lot of people. Um, and every time you put yourself out there, you bring someone in who can help your community. And I love it. So so yeah, I'm Blythe, obviously. I'm a therapist and coach uh like Steve. I specialize in trauma and grief. And I've been doing this work for 25 years. I'm almost 51. And it's amazing the things that you learn um just in doing something for a long time, right? And one of the things you learn is you always have more to learn. So I'm always learning, I'm always working on myself. I always end up in my own therapy, my own coaching. And my business and my practice has had so many iterations through the years, right? So, as Steve shared, I have a book out on trauma. It's called Trauma Intelligence, the Art of Helping in a World Filled with Pain. I also um run and have a team that helps me run an amazing team, um, a grief coaching, a trauma-informed grief coaching certification program. And it's specifically for grievers, many, many, many of whom have gone through very traumatic loss. So that's my current project and done work with the Coast Guard, right? With Steve and I did a project together with my strong guardians through the Coast Guard for trauma stuff, and um also done tons of trainings for organizations, nonprofits, a Fortune 5 company, the US Louisiana Department of Health on trauma and and how that impacts us and secondary trauma and how that impacts us, right? So I love my job. I don't ever want to retire. It's my favorite thing about myself, you know, it's a thing that I know that I'm consistently good at. And that's something that brings me great pride and humility and um gratitude. So that's where I'm coming from.

SPEAKER_01:

Well, that's probably why we get along for so many other reasons. Like, yeah, we're both I I just turned 50 a couple months ago. I've been doing this for 26 years, more years than I have not done it. And that's right. What I love about what you talked about is exactly what I feel most people, and again, there's no knock on anyone, but in our field, and we'll get back to the first responder stuff and the military stuff, very important stuff. But what I find that people make a mistake is here's my niche, and I'll never move from it. And I started as a child and family specialists. And, you know, I hear you're you talked about your career and where you've been. That's exactly it, is that we just keep on evolving and changing stuff because that's what we need to do. And that's why, like, you know, like you, I've worked with people in the Fortune 500 companies and I've worked in going to the homeless shelters and homeless, like I we call it the weeds around here, but I went to the weeds and talked to people and everywhere in between. And learning to be able to adapt to what is needed is so important. But then when you find your passion, you make that the main part, but not singularly the part.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, yeah, I love it. Yeah, we're definitely aligned on that.

SPEAKER_01:

And I just had therapy, so I'm feeling really good. I have my therapy right before this uh recording. So uh thanks, Joe. Uh, I know he doesn't listen, but makes me feel good to say thank you. But no, I think that that's what you know, it's important to talk about a lot of the stuff. You know, one of the things I want to mention on this podcast, because I think it's gonna military stuff is important to me too. I really enjoyed working with you on the Mind Strong Guardians and Justin and our whole team. And because there are people who were there who had lived experience, I'm not in liberty to discuss their names. That's not my job. Um, that's for them if they want to talk about it. But we had, you know, lived experience, people who've been through trauma, sexual assault, particularly in the Coast Guard. And we were doing fantastic work. And one one of the things that I loved is that I was typically the only male in the room, and I was one of the leaders with Blight. And I would always ask Blaine, I'm like, I'm the dude, and these are all women who have been unfortunately have had some sexual trauma of some sort. And you would be like, Yeah, you're a trustworthy person. I don't know where you come from that, but I'm like, you always encourage me to be myself, and the more I was myself, the more people were comfortable with me. So I remember that too. Do you think that when people are talking about hard stuff, whether it's trauma, grief, the authenticity of the therapist is as important as the authenticity of the client?

SPEAKER_02:

As much even more, right? Because if I'm authentic, I invite the other person to be authentic, right? I think that's where so many of us miss the boat and we're not trained properly as clinicians on this, is that being present in that relationship, that whether it's an educational relationship, whether it's a therapeutic, whether it's a coaching relationship, is so crucial because otherwise I'm just a warm body sitting across from someone that has no skin in the game. And I've always, always felt like if my client is going to come and be that vulnerable and tell me things that nobody else in their life knows about them, how dare I not be part of this conversation? Right? It's it's not fair. And so while I don't think obviously I should be disclosing everything about myself all the time, there are times when disclosure where relatability, where saying, hey, it's okay, you're not alone, are crucial to helping another person. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

I I can't remember what the exact wording was, but um I'll I'll put it the best way I can. Appropriate disclosure is so important, you know, particularly working with the military, the first respondent. And frankly, like when I work with women with trauma, I gotta be as authentic as I can because they can a read a fucking fake a mile away.

SPEAKER_02:

Yep.

unknown:

Yep.

SPEAKER_01:

More importantly, they're like, oh, I can trust this person, which is so important.

SPEAKER_02:

Yes.

SPEAKER_01:

Um, you know, and I think that that's the disclosure you're talking about. We're not here to this, I'm not I'm not here to put down what we learn as education, but for me, I go back to more of a Buddhist practice is that there's a difference between privacy and secrecy. Um that's not for you. And when I talk to my therapist, sometimes I'll talk about it, but that's my privacy, that's my thing I gotta work on. But then when you go into secrecy, like, oh, what's your experience with blank, or what why are we being secret about that? When people ask me, Do you have two kids? Well, they can Google it, they'll know I have two kids. I I don't believe in keeping secrets from my clients, and I think that that's really what encourages people. Can you talk a little more about that being like disclose appropriate self-disclosure while also being not and secrecy and privacy?

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, well, I think there's a beautiful distinction between secrecy and privacy, and that's true of all our relationships, right? I think the litmus test that I use is am I sharing this to make it about me, or am I sharing this so that they feel connected and less alone? And if the answer every time is I'm sharing this so that they feel connected, supported, seen, and not alone, then I'm always on the right side of it, right? Um obviously it should never be about me getting my needs met, but it should always be about being authentic so that that person can get their needs met. Sometimes I find myself feeling this strong intuition with certain clients to tell them something I've never told a client before, right? That again tells me that that's an indicator that this is about them needing to hear this in this moment. And that also, that intuition, I think, comes from being authentic. It comes from caring, it comes from not being just a brick wall, right? It comes from not just disclosure, but authentically being attached to someone in a way that you want them to be attached to you in the service of helping them heal.

SPEAKER_01:

The best compliment I ever got, and I'm sure this has happened to you, is that oh my God, I feel like I can talk to you. You're not putting on a face, you're not. We don't show up like again. This is how I dress today for work, and I'm gonna see clients that way. It's not unprofessional and not like, you know, whatever bad message I can have on my shirt, but it's so informal that people are like, oh, you're informal, I can talk to you. I I think that plays a huge factor, but particularly, I think about my first responders and the military personnel that we've both worked with. Can you talk a little more about how military personnel would react if we were like if I was in a suit and tie, for example, or uh I was like, tell me how you feel about that.

SPEAKER_02:

Well, first of all, it could be very triggering, right? Activating because it can remind them of their need to be formal, their need to defer, right? Especially depending on their rank in the military. And so that could actually re-trigger trauma because we already know in many facets of the military, it is not safe to have emotion. It is not safe to be vulnerable, it is not safe to ask for help, even, even though it's said that it is. There's all these underlying and obvious and also idiosyncratic ways that that gets shoved aside. And so I think that would be very potentially off-putting to someone, right? And potentially make them feel really unsafe and or like they had to defer to you instead of having equal connection to you. Is that something that you you've experienced or heard about, Steve?

SPEAKER_01:

100%. What I didn't I didn't think about that part. I never put it in words, so I appreciate it. One of the guys once told me is like when I went for my fit for duty, it was a guy in a suit and tie who was evaluating me. When I was sitting with you, I feel like you know, I'm talking to a friend, a paid friend, but nonetheless a friend, because you're more informal and you're able to connect with me. So when I say something, you can say it's messed up or whatever. And I think that, you know, when I uh you know, one of the constant message on my podcasts for resilience development and action is that you gotta know which culture you're working with, you know.

SPEAKER_02:

Yes, and you have to meet them where they are, right?

SPEAKER_01:

And I talk about a lot about the first responder culture.

SPEAKER_02:

Yep.

SPEAKER_01:

But the military culture is its own freaking animal, if you ask me.

SPEAKER_02:

Oh, for sure. Yeah, I mean, it's its own culture. It's this secret world of things, right? Look what's on the news today. I mean, it's a disaster, but the reality of it is like it's this whole secret world where people have different stated and unstated expectations, right? And as you and I saw from Mindstrong, and we're working on the sexual trauma and the operational trauma in the Coast Guard, that there's still such uh stigma to even things that are helpful, right? Those things get taken away, they get removed, they get shoved under the rug. You almost get like mildly penalized or punitive language when you're trying to bring the light out of the darkness. And I think it's it's sort of like this very interesting family dynamic that happens when kids are molested in homes, right? Where the family does everything they can to keep it a secret and the non-abusive spouse pretends like nothing's happening. This happens in the military. It's like a it's like another familial experience where everything bad that's going on is only moderately addressed, and the damage is catastrophic.

SPEAKER_01:

Right. And go ahead.

SPEAKER_02:

They talk about collateral damage and war and and those things. What they don't talk about is the emotional collateral damage of not addressing the realistic and real things that are happening for first responders and military, both.

SPEAKER_01:

I think that with the military, it's even worse because with some departments in general, I'm not saying there's there's transparency, but the there is some transparency, and I say this very lightly.

SPEAKER_02:

Um yeah. And different units, right? Different parts of the country are responding in different ways, different police departments, different fire departments, different, but you know, before we got on, we were talking about my friend Jeff Dill, and he started and runs uh Firefighter Behavioral Health Alliance. And I he and I have been working on a book for a long time. It's gonna come out at some point, and it's doing the it's a it's interviewing uh family members of people who lost their first responder to suicide, right? One of the things that he does is he's since 2010 tracked firefighter, uh paramedic and EMT suicides, right? EMS suicides. And let's just say this not everybody likes what he's doing, right? And he has been blocked in some situations for doing the right thing, for actually bringing voice to what's actually going on. He also does something really amazing. He hosts a retreat every year uh for those who have lost their first responder to suicide. And it's it's a beautiful, beautiful thing. But yeah, I mean, let's just say not everybody is smiling upon what he's doing, which is just telling the truth.

SPEAKER_01:

And that's part of the secrecy we just talked about earlier, is that you know, you talk about the military. I, you know, one of the stories that I I keep on plays back in my head all the time. There was an issue with a particular person, and a few women reported him. He was moved to another unit. He wasn't discharged. He was, and why was he moved? And then the other unit was blind to what happened. And that's the secrecy that gets really in the way, in my opinion. And when you call it out, like you know, I feel like what we do in general and what I do in my job, you're not gonna be popular. But I've always thought, and I I can't remember who said this, but to be popular means you're not necessarily telling the truth.

SPEAKER_02:

That and if everyone likes you, you probably have zero integrity, right? I always think it's we're saying the same thing in a different way. I always think like if everyone in the world likes me, then I am standing for nothing. Right. And uh I think those of us who have louder voices are you know, those of us, those that love us, love us, and those that don't, don't. I don't want to be loved by someone who is okay with colluding sexual trauma, right?

SPEAKER_01:

There's so many things I don't want in my life. Yeah, it's hard to mean what the job is is to find the good in people and find the good in, you know, what I like is I think that me and you can have a disagreement, but it will never be meant as disrespectful. And we disagree, and then we're gonna move on. I think unfortunately, the other part too that you find the military in the first responder world, and correct me if I'm wrong, which causes trauma, is you disagreed with one of your superiors, then that's held against you for several months and several years later, because you know, you can't have that disagreement, and that causes trauma and that makes strife, and then you have this judgment about you know, someone says, Oh, don't talk to Blight, she's gonna tell you the truth, and she's she's gonna make up her truth or whatever. They play you down, but now you don't know that that's what happened, it's just because you were ruffling feathers. I think that plays a good in my opinion.

SPEAKER_02:

But what do I agree? I agree with you wholeheartedly on that, Steve, for sure.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, I think I think that we be again, I don't want to process our old company, but I think that that's why sometimes people didn't like me in that company. Because if something, you know, I I I say to my clients, if it smells like a rose and looks like a rose, I don't need to get pricked to know it's a rose. And if it smells like shit and looks like shit, I don't need to lick it to know it's shit.

SPEAKER_02:

Tis true.

SPEAKER_01:

And I think that that's what happens is when you say the truth, people don't like it. And I'm okay with that.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, I'm uh you and I are on the same page for sure. For me, my I would rather be an advocate than somebody who bends other people's dishonesty.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah. I'd rather you I'd rather you despise me for half a second, but respect that I told you the truth than you want because I was nice to you, but I didn't make any changes in your life or changes in society or whatever.

SPEAKER_02:

And I think that that goes a long way working with first responder military, right? Because the the ability to go to someone that's gonna say what's true. I always think a good uh litmus test for like being a supportive trauma therapist or coach or or just friend is always say what's true. Like that's catastrophic. That's the worst thing that could have possibly happened. It is horrific to be molested. It is horrific to be uh sexually assaulted instead of whitewashing language. I think when someone feels like you're just saying the truth, they can trust you. And I think they can trust you if you're willing to sit in the discomfort of saying what's true, even if what's true is really ugly.

SPEAKER_01:

Let me throw a little wrinkle, and I'd love to hear your point. That's what I like about us is so you tell the truth and you're punished for it. So is it really worth saying the truth?

SPEAKER_02:

Yes. Why? Well, not for the victim, but for the ally.

SPEAKER_01:

Why? Please explain.

SPEAKER_02:

Um, because I think that people that are victims need allies and advocates to not be liked on their behalf. I do think for the person that is traumatized, there's not always a huge payoff for telling the truth. In fact, there's a negative repercussion for it almost always.

SPEAKER_01:

If I hear one more time, what was she wearing or did she drink? I'm gonna throw up.

SPEAKER_02:

Uh yeah, it's disgusting.

SPEAKER_01:

You know, and I don't care about that. Consents, consents, consent. And you're right. I want to like I feel the same way. I think that one what I see. You say advocate, I say therapist, I say counselor, I say peer support, whatever works for people, it doesn't matter because I think with our mindful guardianship, we were trying to train people to be good peer support people, and hopefully uh that happened because you know we're no longer involved, and hopefully they're still supporting each other. But the bottom line is that I think some of our role, you know, when we can have you know trauma intelligence, read my book, read ever 1400 books. If you don't know how to advocate for your client that's in front of you, and advocate doesn't mean you go on the street and go, you know, she got raided by John Doe. It's advocating so they feel stronger. I think that that's the other part too, because I I that's why I was asking about the ally, and I see us as allies as therapists and people. So when I tell people come to therapy, it's because you're gonna add an ally on your side. Who might be uncomfortable, but it will help you.

SPEAKER_02:

But it's doing it because they care, right? And hopefully that therapist is also getting therapy for themselves, like we do. Which is a whole nother topic of conversation. But you know, I hope that there's more therapists out there than are not that are actually taking their work so seriously that they're getting help for themselves so that they can be their best selves for their clients, which their clients deserve.

SPEAKER_01:

I think it's worth talking about, even though, like, because I think that's important too. I I remember, I'll be truthful when I first started in this field, being in therapy was a sign of weakness, even for me.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

I didn't do it. And I'll be again, full disclosure. I don't think that's a secret. I think that's good in talking that's not I need to open up about that. But eventually I saw the value of that. And I think that what happens is I remember I went back to a conversation from my undergrad. One of the teachers said to our group, like, okay, how many people are here to learn more about themselves? It was a psychology class, bunch of hands go up. Right. Do you think that this is going to help you when you're doing therapy? And people's hands still stayed up. You'll all be lousy fucking therapists because you're doing it for you, not for other people. And I remember that. And I remember saying that healing ourselves, he said, healing yourself has to be done through your therapist. It hasn't, it can't be done through a client. Can it help?

SPEAKER_02:

That's true. That's true. That's true.

SPEAKER_01:

Yourself through your clients. So that's why that was his message.

SPEAKER_02:

Well, that's a true message. And I think I would be I would be scared to know how many professionals don't get help for themselves. And I think it's brave for you to tell where you were coming from. And that's a perfect example of self-disclosure that you could share with maybe a male client who has been socialized to think that they can't ask for help and saying, like, I've been there too. That would be a perfect example of something that would be appropriate to share, right? And acknowledge the truth so that they didn't feel alone.

SPEAKER_01:

And again, by the way, I keep on saying this, but this book is awesome. I read it myself, I use it regularly. There's another copy that's not signed in my house that I used to. And you know, I think about societal, you know, trauma that you talk about. And one of the things that happens is, and I'll go to our military and first responder world. Well, you got to be tough, you got to be able to handle it, you gotta be able to do this. And I think that part sometimes that is the trauma of the work that they do, but also as a therapist, but you have your shit together, you're a therapist. I I tell my clients as fucked up as you are, I'm just fucked up differently. And I'm working on, and it's okay to say that, but I think that what happens is there's a police officer has to have his stuff together, firefighter has to have his stuff together, a sergeant, a uh admiral, or whatever has to have their shit together before they go into. So that's why they don't need it because they have their shit together. How do we break that stigma? Because it really is stigma plus trauma, because it's an expectation from a community. And for me, when I hear that uh, I've never asked a therapist a police officer that intervened, I mean, are you in therapy? But when police officers, firefighters are honest about their treatment, I think that's a great thing, breaking out social stigma and these barriers that we've created.

SPEAKER_02:

So brave. I think it's so brave and so vulnerable and so helpful, right? And I think that changes one person being willing to share that at a time. I do, right? Because if I'm a firefighter and I share it with someone in my community of firefighters, and then they get help and they can go share it with someone else, you know, down the line. And also seeing someone be willing to work on their secondary trauma or their, you know, their own trauma that's also being impacted by their secondary trauma, I think is really powerful, right? And I think those are the people that are going to really change the trajectory of things. Also, the younger generations all have a very different relationship with mental health and mental health support. And I think that in order to stay relevant ever, if they want recruits, the military first responder communities will either adapt or they will cease to exist. Because the younger and younger generations will absolutely not be part of organizations that are not gender respectful, that are not uh mental health respectful, that are not feminist centered. And so they'll they'll just be irrelevant. That's maybe not in the very near future, but as as the generations evolve, which I think we always continue to evolve, right? That will not be an acceptable space for most people.

SPEAKER_01:

We got a couple of examples for you. I have um, I want to say four or five now, under 25 who worked in the first responder world, they call me within a year of starting the service, and they said, Look, I may not have anything wrong with me, but I have I want you to have a relationship with me. So if I ever need you, you're available. And yeah, we work on little things, and sometimes one of them I see once every two months, and that's fine. But they know I they have me on speed dial. And this generation of anything, I know there's a lot of questioning sometimes of that generation. The one thing I can tell you is mentally, mental health-wise, they are very intelligent and they get it. But I think that that change in culture has to happen. And again, high chiefs, high lieutenants, high admirals and commanders. You need to understand that that's important. It's not that they have an issue that they're that that's the issue. It's not treating it, that's the fucking issue.

SPEAKER_02:

That's it. That's the issue, a hundred percent. You know, that's it. It's nobody's fault they have an issue, it's their responsibility to address it. And that's hard for all of us as we and it's a process for all of us, right? But it's it's in it's instrumental in not doing damage to other people.

SPEAKER_01:

I I think it's instrumental not to like you know, I we don't have the Hippocratic ode in our job, but do no harm. And I think police don't have that Hippocratic ode of do no harm, but that's the same thing. Military, do no harm. It's to protect our country, to protect and serve our country. And I think that's important because do doing harm to oneself is still doing harm.

SPEAKER_02:

It is, it is. That's very, very, very, very true. I agree.

SPEAKER_01:

You know, you look at the suicide rates of, and that's why I would love to have Jeff on. I hope he does. Uh, and uh Justin, you I know you're listening. Justin, you're coming on at some point too. Just wanted to throw that out.

SPEAKER_02:

Okay, he's gonna love it. He's gonna be great.

SPEAKER_01:

But um, you know, I I think that when you think about the suicide rates, that's what 70% higher than the general population, if I remember last. At least. If you're telling them you have a problem, suck it up buttercup, you're causing this issue.

SPEAKER_02:

You're causing the secrecy.

SPEAKER_01:

And you're causing these suicides. I'm I'm gonna go step through that.

SPEAKER_02:

Well, and that causes the suicide. Yeah, I agree with you. You have a direct hand in that person dying. I agree.

SPEAKER_01:

Calling him a pussy for.

SPEAKER_02:

In our story, like in our story in our book, in the book that we're working on for the Firefighter Behavioral Health Alliance, I mean, a lot of these stories are people that their loved ones tried to get help and were not met with sport within the firefighter first responder community.

SPEAKER_01:

Absolutely. There's a guy coming in.

SPEAKER_02:

Or they turn to addiction, which is considered like, you know, the gold standard of personal treatment and those things. And the addiction led to the suicide, right? But the bottom line is we know that a combination of mental health challenges, trauma, and addiction often lead to suicide.

SPEAKER_01:

So yeah. And I think that you talk about addiction. It doesn't have to be substances. Sometimes it's all kinds of stuff.

SPEAKER_02:

Yep. Behavioral addiction is real. Yes.

SPEAKER_01:

And shout out to Angie Gunn, who is uh who worked with us for a while. But you know, she says there's no such thing as sex addiction. I always totally agree to disagree with her because you know, some people go into these deep dark holes, and now suddenly, like I've had I know of a suicide across the country that was someone who got into these sexual porn sites, got into relationships that obviously they weren't relationships, they were money exchanges. And because they ran out of money and they didn't have anything else, they off themselves.

SPEAKER_02:

So even the behavioral addictions to me is a yeah, sex addiction is super real, and it happens to a lot of trauma survivors too. So I've worked with people who are they don't even know what they are, they're just they run on trauma and their sexual connections are all trauma related and they're impulsive and they're dangerous and they're not aligned with their values, right? To me, that is addiction, right?

SPEAKER_01:

And that's what I mean.

SPEAKER_02:

And that the very least, yeah, at the very least, it's an extreme trauma response that is often never addressed.

SPEAKER_01:

And that's what I mean. I mean, I you know, there's a case in Massachusetts, um, and I'm not gonna go into too much detail, but this was the power over women that caused, you know, a big strife to the point where that woman committed suicide and died. And the police officers had used that power all that time. And I'm not gonna go into too many details uh because not that I'm involved in the case, I just don't want to go into details. But the point is that even the addiction of the power over sex over everything else is also part of the issue, you know, and how many first responders and military military is guilty in my opinion. How many of them have gambling debt from sports Benny?

SPEAKER_02:

You know, that's right, that's right. Which is it it destroys entire families, yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

So that makes sense. Right? Hey, you're not doing you're not doing fentanyl, you're just gambling on ping pong in Korea that you know nothing about.

SPEAKER_02:

But lying about it and taking family income to do it, and then losing your spouse. So I guess if we look at addictions like negative consequences that go against our values that we can't stop, that lead to other loss and more trauma, right? Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

I mean, I I argue with my first responders who do details, who do extra work. I said that's an addiction. So if you do one in a while, that's great. But if you're addicted to the money and that, you are part of the issue, and that's gonna cause you because when it dries up or you don't have the capacity, you're not gonna be able to keep that lifestyle, and then you're gonna be hard on yourself, and there's gonna be negative consequences to that.

SPEAKER_02:

Makes sense to me. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

So I think that that's why, like, for me, trauma is all over the place. I think that one of uh one of my other guests says grief is the root of all mental health issues. I would argue that grief and trauma are both.

SPEAKER_02:

I think they go together. It's why I've always been fascinated and so interested in helping people with both, right? Because our grief is directly impacted by our trauma, because the way we view the world is directly impacted by our trauma. And so if one person loses a child and their general belief about the world is that it's horrific, that nothing is fair, that you know everything is bad, is going to happen to them, that's gonna impact their already devastation about losing their child on a it validates a worldview that treating that is very different than treating someone who had horrifically lost a child that has a generally positive worldview because they didn't have trauma. And it doesn't mean that they're not both in excruciating pain, but one is on pain on top of pain, and one is on pain, but able to navigate it without all these underlying beliefs about life, right? And so they have to be addressed at the same time, especially for people with trauma because their grief is often affected by that negative worldview.

SPEAKER_01:

I couldn't agree more, and I think that's it's one of the other stigmas I find is that grief. I was actually talking to a former police officer on on the way to work today, and it's been two weeks, you're good, right? And like grief has some sort of like magical date that it's gonna be, you know, or dealt with. And I think that that happens a lot with the military and the first responder world, right? And it's really, I think when you think about grief, I mean, you're you I'm I don't I hate to say the expert, but the expert with me about this. Is there really an end date to grief?

SPEAKER_02:

There's not an end date to grief, but there's an end date to acute grief and living in it 24-7 if you're willing to take certain steps.

SPEAKER_01:

What do you mean?

SPEAKER_02:

Just like everything else, like you know, there are people who go through massive loss that literally never move forward from that point. And then there's people who go through massive loss that do the work that they didn't ask to have to do to make sense of that loss, to find peace with the loss. You always know that loss is present, but you can have a fully embodied life without that person, it just might not look the same as it did before.

SPEAKER_01:

No, I and I agree, but I want to put it in more even layman terms. So you're telling me acute grief doesn't have a time process, it has to do with talking about it. That's really what it is. It's not a two-week, two-month, two-year project.

SPEAKER_02:

No, no, no. No, it could take many, many, many years, right? And also, it's not just talking about it, it's it's having evidence-based tools, it's having processes, it's having skills, it's having the right kind of authentic support. It's being exposed to other people who can understand, right? It's so many different things. Because, like one of my clients at yesterday, um, who lost a child, this person, for all intents and purposes, had a very idyllic life before that. And what happened as a result was being othered, right? But also a lot of changes for the better happened as well. More empathy, more connection in real ways. And so that person is never going to be the same. But that might not be a bad thing because loss can inform us as human beings, it can help us become a better version of ourselves, or it can help us become a bitter, angry, shut down. And that's true of almost all life challenges. So, you know, it's it's just like trauma. Grief is that thing where you didn't cause it, it's not your fault, but if you don't deal with it, it's going to destroy your life.

SPEAKER_01:

Right. You know, that's a good point, Blight. And I really appreciate it, and I think it makes perfect sense to me. But as we wrap up here, you know, one of the things I want to say about grief from my perspective, if you ever doubt that grief is a positive thing, grief is the reason why I'm here today and doing treatment and because of that's powerful. Losing my best friend at 12. And, you know, I'm share a little more here. He was Jewish, so I wasn't, I don't know what the hell was going on in the 80s, but I was not allowed to go to the funeral. He died in a fire tragically, holding his brother. And and my parents, for better or for worse, said, you know, that sucks, but that means you're gonna play harder in the game and play football together and soccer because he won't be there. And that was my grief process. I don't blame anyone. I do not blame anyone.

SPEAKER_02:

No, but it just hurts me for little Steve, you know what I mean?

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, and I've compassion for him, but because of that grief, you know, eventually I got it out, I worked with it, and I still sometimes process it. It's not completely over, it's no longer acute, which is good. But I tell people that, you know, I never wanted a human being to ever be alone in that way.

SPEAKER_02:

And that's what drives you. That's so that loss is your purpose, right? Your friend is your purpose, but also your loneliness is your purpose. And that I think that's a powerful testimony to the importance of finding something within your pain that can lead to some meaning derivement, right? That's really thank you for sharing that. And I've known you for a long time, and I didn't know that story.

SPEAKER_01:

Well, you know, the the secrecy and the privacy of a lot. Sorry, I feel like I'm talking about me, but we'll come back.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

When I wrote my book, I wrote that whole story. And it happened when I was 12 in Quebec. I'm not gonna bore you too long, but we transferred to high school when we're 12. So I just had started at high school.

SPEAKER_02:

You did write that. You're right. Okay.

SPEAKER_01:

And when I when I transferred to that high school, they don't know my friend, they didn't know my football life and all that. And he died that September, Labor Day.

SPEAKER_02:

I remember this now from your book. Yes.

SPEAKER_01:

My friends, after they read the book, they're like, I feel a little hurt. And I said, My friends have 30 something years. And I said, Why is that? You never mentioned A V once to me. And I'd never mention it to my friend. That's how secret I kept that pain. Steve. No, but that's what I mean about no. I want to use this as a good way for people to hear. We need to open up about this stuff.

SPEAKER_02:

No, no, I know. I just, you know, I I think it's powerful that you were able to take that from your friends too, and to hear like it actually hurt them to not know about what you were going through, which we don't. I think when we hide away our pain, we fear being a burden, or we fear no one's gonna be there, or we fear someone will minimize it, because they did, right? And so uh that's a powerful. I love that you're I love your story of transformation. And you did share that before, but you just have never shared it with me in person. And my aging mind is is obvious, right? So, you know, I think it's a powerful story, and I love that you're able to share it here as well. I think it'll help somebody. I really do.

SPEAKER_01:

I think that that's where we cross the secrecy and privacy line. And this is what I think first responders and military personnel always have to understand is that we're not immune to trauma, not immune to our own laws, and we have our own stories that sometimes we're ashamed. And then when we say it out loud, I'm like, why was I ashamed of that? Because I put it on myself. So being able to remove the secrecy of it is so important for them to be able to open up. And I'm not saying, like, you know, if I was shot at, I've never been shot at, thankfully. But if I was shot at and I go into great detail about being shot at in session, that's probably not appropriate. That's not good disclosure.

SPEAKER_02:

No, that's bad disclosure.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, yeah, yeah. But being shot at and explaining how it felt and this and that, and going just and say, is that how you felt, or did you feel something else? Now suddenly, like, oh shit, he can relate.

SPEAKER_02:

And that's good explaining, yeah, that's good, that's good um sharing. I agree. And what you just shared is very powerful sharing. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

I I'm 50 now. I don't care. I don't know if that's a good thing or a bad thing.

SPEAKER_02:

But something really, I don't know if it's like, you know, we have these developmental milestones even as we get older. And something really does change when you when you hear the number 50, right? You're just like, what am I doing? Like, what am I what is my purpose, and why do I care so much? Because I don't anymore. You know what I mean? It really does shift.

SPEAKER_01:

You know, it I remember a time where, you know, and this happens also, I think, in our world in other worlds, but you know, I was not sexually attracted, but attracted to people with power, attracted with people who could help me, attracted to people who are good looking, and that happened too. And I realized, like, that's all bullshit. Because it doesn't matter, all that is that what it like, what do I need? Because it doesn't matter if they put me under their wing or whatever, it's important what I need. And yeah, I started out a little earlier, but I think that there's something that happened when I turned 50 that I truly at this point I'm like, are we on the same page or not? And if we're not, that's okay. Shake hands, move on. I don't have time to try to please people anymore.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, I get that. I really do get that. You're such a great person, Steve. I'm so glad we know each other and we're friends, and I'm so glad we've worked together throughout the years. Really, I love what you're doing. I love that your set your podcast is on this episode, and I haven't been on it in like several hundred, almost a couple hundred, right? And so I just think it's it's really cool what you're doing. Really.

SPEAKER_01:

Well, from the bottom of my heart, I think we we always touched the surface. We didn't even talk about the trauma of the collective and as well as the work trauma.

SPEAKER_02:

We're gonna have to do a part two.

SPEAKER_01:

I I just want you back. The one thing I'm gonna say to you, and I commit to this on a podcast.

SPEAKER_02:

Uh-oh.

SPEAKER_01:

I gotta go down to Pennsylvania. Come see me, and I'd love to see you because that's the other part too, which is what I love about our friendships. Our friendship has never been about being close, it's about being close and extremely distance.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah. All right, I'm gonna hold you to that. I want you here in Pittsburgh.

SPEAKER_01:

It's recorded uh here, um, so I can't change that. But I need to go to Pittsburgh. I've never been to Pittsburgh.

SPEAKER_02:

Oh, you'd love it. It's great. It's no Massachusetts, but it's it's great in its own way. It's got, you know what you would love about Pittsburgh? It's got grit, and you've got grit.

SPEAKER_01:

But that's what I that's exactly like. I have two clients from Pittsburgh originally.

SPEAKER_02:

They're kind of rough around the edges.

SPEAKER_01:

They're my people.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, they're they're direct, they're gritty, and they're very, very welcome.

SPEAKER_01:

And they will they will give the shirt off their back if you ask them.

SPEAKER_02:

It's true. Yeah. All right, well, we're gonna get that planned. This is awesome today.

SPEAKER_01:

I will I know this this, you know, this this podcast comes out at the end of October, but I I I I pledged that by 2026. By the end of 2026, I will have been to Pittsburgh. I will have and again, I don't think I need to say that for you. I'm saying it for the audience. And with your consent, I will hug you because I really want to meet you.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, of course. Yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_01:

But I think it's for the podcast, but I didn't think that you were opposed to that. Uh but I and then just speak and be with each other, have a coffee. We've never done that. And I would love it. And I think that that's what I I think we should end on, and not only having you back on the show, but also I'm committing to it. I'm 100% committing to go to Pittsburgh to see you.

SPEAKER_02:

All right, I can't wait.

SPEAKER_01:

I'll be here. Well, you know, how do we reach you, Blight, before we hang up here?

SPEAKER_02:

You can find me on Instagram at Blightlandry Coach, right? You can find my website, Blythlandry.com. The name of my program uh that is for people who want to be certified grief coaches that have gone through grief is grief to purpose. The new website is going to be launched imminently, so it'll be grieftopurpose.net, right? And um yeah, I'm also on Facebook as Blythe Landry, so I'm everywhere.

SPEAKER_01:

And and you don't need need to have a master's to go do your your program on grief coaching, do we?

SPEAKER_02:

No, this program is for grievers. That's what I'm looking for. I'm looking for people who've gone through real loss, who are willing to continue to work through that loss, even if they've been working on it for a long time. We want to connect to other people in small community who are grievers and who want to do exactly what Steve did, which is find a way to create some type of purpose, whether that means going out and being a grief coach yourself, doing it as a career, doing it as a volunteer, doing nonprofit, doing stuff in your church, community, whatever it is for you. One of the things I'm most proud of is not only are our students, people I would call like unicorns because they're walking around thinking about this kind of stuff, 99% of our students have no experience ever doing this. They want the trauma-informed part that we offer, and they they find that through this program, they're getting more healing than they've ever got, even if they've been working on their grief for a long time, exactly because of what Steve said. They're finding a way to create meaning. Even, you know, it's that Victor Frankel thing, right? The only difference between us and every other living thing is our ability to create meaning. And so if we choose that path, whether it's real, made up, or whatever, it works. So yeah. And I want to be considered for that program, you just reach out to me, we'll set up a call and see if it's a good fit.

SPEAKER_01:

I want to mention that for two reasons. Number one, therapists can join, obviously, very good people, but I want to make sure, based on who listens to this podcast, I want my peer support people who work in departments across the country to know that they can join this and being informed and they can bring it back to peer support because again, that's perfect.

SPEAKER_02:

Absolutely. We've had people's companies even pay for them to do this. We've had we've had a lot of really cool things happen. The peer support people are perfect for this community. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_01:

I'm sending that out to my peeps and the uh the emergency responder, first responder, depending on who you'd mean. But that's who I send it out. You know, again, I vouch for it personally. And you know me, you've listened if you've listened to 228 episodes. I've promoted you know, two things ever as a commercial. I would do 14 commercials for Blight, and it wouldn't be enough because that's how much I believe in this program. And that's why peers particularly should go there because sometimes hearing me talk about grief as a therapist that's helpful, but a peer-to-peer that's strong. That's like, you know.

SPEAKER_02:

That's what I always say. This is not about me, it's about the community of people that are supporting each other, and it's amazing. And all of our coaches are graduates of the program, and all of our coaches that run the calls. I've removed myself from the center. They're all peers, they're all people who have gone through catastrophic loss and learned to do this work. So awesome. Well, it's been great, and I can't wait to give you a hug in person, Steve.

SPEAKER_01:

Well, you know, I'm gonna I'm gonna hold you to coming back, number one. Number two, I'm coming.

SPEAKER_02:

Talking, yeah, I know. We'll get into some trouble with all our ideas.

SPEAKER_01:

And please please go find Blight, go do this program. It's amazing. I'm I I don't endorse it lightly. I endorse it because I mean it. And um, and if not, if you just want to read about stuff, Trauma Intelligence is a great book that's really reachable. It's not made for professionals, and I mean that professionals can get something out of it, don't get me wrong. But because it's not made for professionals, it's available to everyone. And I really encourage people to also grab your book. So um thank you so much, Steve. I'll I'll uh I'll send you my bill for all these plugs. I'm just kidding.

SPEAKER_02:

I know, I'm ready.

SPEAKER_01:

Um, but anyway, um, from the bottom of my heart, you know I love you, but I'll say it anyway. I love you. I really love you. I love me too.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, same.

SPEAKER_01:

And then uh for those of you who are listening to the podcast still after this love fest, uh, please join us for episode 229, and I'll see you then.

SPEAKER_00:

Please like, subscribe, and follow this podcast on your favorite platform. A glowing review is always helpful. And as a reminder, this podcast is for informational, educational, and entertainment purposes only. If you're struggling with a mental health or substance abuse issue, please reach out to a professional counselor for consultation. If you are in a mental health crisis, call 988 for assistance. This number is available in the United States and Canada.

Head Shot

Steve Bisson

Host
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Courtney Romanowski

Co-host
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Blythe Landry

Guest