E.233 Building Real Mental Health Support For First Responders (Part 1)

What does it take to build mental health care that first responders actually trust? We sit down with former Revere police officer Joe Rizzuti, whose journey from stacked line-of-duty trauma and alcohol use to peer support leadership strips away the clichés and gets to what works. Joe’s story starts with a tough childhood, a military turnaround, and a policing career shaped by high-stakes cases and a deep love for community. It also includes administrative betrayals, devastating calls, and the moment he walked into On-Site Academy expecting a firearms range and found a lifeline instead.

From there, Joe breaks down how cultural competence changes outcomes. If a clinician doesn’t understand roll call, shift work, gallows humor, and the weight of cumulative stress, trust collapses. He explains how he vets treatment programs—On-Site for acute resets, First Responder Wellness in California for intensive trauma work, and union-aligned options like IAFF Centers of Excellence—while calling out profit-first models that fail responders. We talk insurance constraints, travel realities, and why credibility is earned one referral at a time.

We also tackle the retiree cliff and why too many officers and firefighters struggle within five years of leaving the job. Joe’s answer: a coaching model adapted from recovery support that restores purpose, routine, and community long before the badge comes off. The takeaway is clear—care must be team-driven, ego-free, and relentlessly practical. If you lead, remove barriers. If you treat, learn the culture. If you’re a peer, keep checking in long after the headlines fade. 

If you are interested, please visit the Onsite academy at https://onsiteacademy.org/

 Visit the NEPBA at https://www.nepba.org/

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Chapters

• 0:00 Intro And Sponsor Message
• 1:07 Setting Up Joe Rizzuti’s Story
• 2:59 Joe’s Upbringing And Early Struggles
• 5:15 Military Turnaround And Policing
• 8:35 Revere PD Culture And Cold Case Work
• 11:22 Traumas, Loss, And Administrative Betrayal
• 15:50 First Exposure To Peer Support
• 19:15 On-Site Academy Wake-Up Call
• 22:45 Choosing The Peer Support Path
• 26:20 Sobriety And Purpose-Driven Work
• 29:20 Building Teams And Calling Out Grifters

Transcript

SPEAKER_00: 0:01

Welcome to Resilience Development and Action with Steve Beast Home. This is the podcast dedicated to first responder mental health, helping police hire EMS, discounters, and parametics create better growth environments for themselves and their teams. Let's get started.

SPEAKER_01: 0:29

You know you've heard me talk about this before. Get free.ai. Great for your note-taking, good for your transcript, good for your goals, good for everything that you do on a HIPAA-compliant nature. And if you use code ST50 at checkout, you will get$50 off your first month. And also if you get a whole year, you will also get 10% off the whole year.ai has freed me to do more things with my life, including work on other passions. So get free to do your notes, get freed from doing your goals. Getfree.ai with code Steve50 to get$50 off your first month. Well, hi, and welcome to episode 233 of Resilience Development in Action. If you haven't been listening, episode 232 is with Douglas Wyman. I don't know if you know him, but uh he's a police chief, correctional staff guy. He's a trainer, he's been in the military, he's got all this experience, so it's really cool. Uh so I hope you enjoyed that episode. But episode 233 is going to be with Joe Rizzutti. Joe, Joe and I have been trying to get in contact for years. Yeah. Three years. We've known each other. And you know what's funny is I I share this story because I think it's funny. Um, they they say the same thing about me, so that's why I like that. I was like, here's Joe's number. He's a little rough around the edges, but you can give him a call. Yeah. And I'm like, oh okay, that's not a good presentation. I call you up, and we had a conversation for 30 minutes the first time without even stopping.

SPEAKER_02: 1:56

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 1:57

Uh so for me, I always think like, do people really like pay attention?

SPEAKER_02: 2:01

Because like I I I wear it as a badge of honor. I grew up in the city of Riviera. I was a Riviera police officer, one of the greatest police departments, I think, in the country. I've been through a lot in my life. Um, I got into mental health to help the first responders. Um, not a big fan of some of the people in your profession. Okay. And the way they look at our profession. And uh I'm not gonna change who I am. That's who makes me who I am, and I think I'm pretty effective of staying true to myself. And that's what we're teaching people, so that's why I am not I'm not gonna change.

SPEAKER_01: 2:32

Whenever you get it, well, after this, because I this is a private conversation I had with someone, I'll explain how some of these therapists are completely clueless as to what you guys do. We need them and we love them, but I don't want to put someone on the spot because I know they listen, so if you know who you are, then you can yell at me, but I'm not sharing the story here. Uh, but Joe, you know, I feel like I've got to know you. We just had like 30 minutes of conversation, we're not even trying. But uh, I don't think my audience knows who you are, so can you introduce yourself?

SPEAKER_02: 2:59

So you know, I grew up uh you know Italian American in if you think of the Sopranos, um that you that's not too much power what Rivera was. Uh I grew up in the 70s. Uh dad walked out, two-bit wise guy, you know. Um, and uh, you know, my grandfather who worked for the DPW, great uh great guy. My uncle, one of my heroes, was a firefighter. Um, I wanted to be a firefighter. I don't do heights. Um, and uh my stepdad was in the military, he was a career army soldier. Uh I had a learning disability severe growing up as a kid. I was the fresh kid, um, always in trouble. Um arrested at a building 19 for shoplifting. Uh and thank God that you know um it was a stupid thing, but alcohol is involved as a kid. Um, and then the grades were horrible. Um, and then I had this amazing teacher who's a World War II veteran that I connected with, and uh a woman named Mrs. Racer and her husband Vinny Moleco, who was um the psychologist for the city, who they believed in me. And uh there was other teachers that you know they seen something to me. And it wasn't until my uh my senior year where um they had this gentleman come in, he looked like Jesus Christ with a satchel. And um he was uh from my neighborhood, you know, he was an undercover mass state trooper. Um one of the two brothers, the Michelle brothers, I'll never forget it. And then as a kid, I remember um my mom uh introducing me to an old MDC uh cop named Red Dog, and and I was always intrigued about policing, but I was told I would never amount to any you couldn't do it because you get you can't spell. And then this one teacher told me, Why quitting you? And that was it. And uh I actually went in the military and uh it changed my it changed my life. Literally, literally changed my life. And uh that's where it started. Yeah, and it was hard. I I was the worst soldier going. If you if I barely made it out of the police academy, I went in as an MP. My dad uh was a National Guard recruiter, and it's a funny story. I think he wanted to get his quota, but he wanted me to do like mechanic work or something like that. But I s no, I was determined to change my life. I wanted to get into law enforcement. And um I come home and he started laughing, and he said they're gonna kick your rear end, and then went down there and they kicked my rear end. And I was the last to graduate, but it was such an accomplishment for me that it I come home, went on to set records with the mass. I got a job working for the guard full-time. Okay. Um, I became a National Guard recruiter at the old Cornwall Towery. I was the youngest recruiter in guard history at 20 years old. Um, I did really well for myself with them. Um, but always had my eye on the prize. And I was still working with the military police units. Uh I kept my my my school set up, and that was it. And then I finally got my break. And uh I could have gone to the state, I could have gone to any police department, but it was just something unique about Revere in the way um it matched my personality, and it was the best thing I ever did.

SPEAKER_01: 6:02

I was actually going to say exactly that. And for those of you who are not from the Massachusetts area, yes, Revere.

SPEAKER_02: 6:09

Yeah, it's it's it's the people are just amazing, they're colorful, they're characters, hearts of gold, and it just uh working there and the the job was really I call it no adult supervision. We were able to do whatever we wanted to, which is good and bad, but we're able to do police work. And I was exposed to some of the most craziest cases. Um, I carry one of those cases in retirement. I'm working a cold case now, a very high-profile cold case. Yeah, Susan Taraskowitz. I'm working with a retired state trooper, MDC cop. I came from old MDC Matt and uh my partner Sean, and we're we're very hopeful we're gonna get this thing. And uh so it's coming close. You'll see some stuff come out in the paper, and there's gonna be a book done, and we're working hard on that one. That's my that's my real passion right now is to get a case solved for the family. I really haven't talked to the family. This is something that we've been doing on the side. I've been passionate about it for like the people who know me know that this has been a passion for 25 years. Right.

SPEAKER_01: 7:06

So that's who I am. Well, you're a little more than that, Joe. Yeah, well, yeah. You know, um, you know, I I right before the interview we were talking about getting in trouble when you were the National Guard. Uh but yeah, I think that what I I'm fascinated by is that you've made an omission about something as near and dear to my heart, just like it is to you. Not only are you working on that cold case, and I know that cold case, so I'm happy you're working on it. Um you're you are someone who has advocated not only for people with mental health issues in in the serv like service and uh the first responder emergency responder world, you made a mission to spread as far as you can.

SPEAKER_02: 7:46

Yeah, and and it hasn't been easy. I am very, very, very blessed. Uh 14 years ago, I, you know, um well back up, the way I got into it was I had a series of traumas. And yeah, I was gonna I was gonna say there's gotta be a story. Yeah, it's a great story in Revere being Revere. Um the the first one, believe it or not, and uh we'll get into onsite in a minute. I w worked a year without an academy, because they did that back then. Responded to my grandfather's code, a guy that raised me, hit the dual running. Um, because I was an MP, I was supposed to know what I was doing. And uh sorry, there's nothing I could do. He had a master's aneurysm. He lived for a couple of days. But I didn't think that affected me. Then I had the betrayal of the department where they wanted to send me to the pre-screen for the academy the day of his wake. And thank God I had this one jerk. Um I only had one jerk in the Rivera Police Department, believe it or not, and we helped get rid of him out of the job. He was a and and I feel bad for him because I found out later he's a nasty alcohol, it was an uh issue with alcohol. But um, and the mayor said no. I mean, his grandfather was part of the city, Joe's gonna go to the academy at a later date. Um, and that was my first administrative betrayal, you know. I thought this was supposed to be family. Um and the news was a great department, up to that one person who busted my stones for a good bit while I was there until we got rid of him. Um, and then uh I had a series of events where I had a uh uh a three-year-old who I knew the family that was um sexually assaulted, and no, couldn't get anyone to come out to help me. I had to handle the uh SA myself as a brand new patrolman. Oh wow. And I carried, we had Polaroid cameras back then, and I had the um well camera adds 70 pounds. Um I gotta lose this weight. Um so I'll stick out my belt if it makes it feel better. Um so I, you know, we had Polaroids, and and thank God I had someone say to me, you know, what are you doing? I'm looking you know, I was looking at the Polaroids, and so they sent me back then. Um I knew I had to talk to somebody. Um they sent me to John Barry, who was the founding father of this whole movement of bear support with the boss of PD. And back then he was like 110, great guy, Marine. And they sent me up there, and I'll never forget it was the old armory building in Stoneham. I go up and meet with them, and his wife was the secretary. And he, Kate, what's going on? And I was like, I won't you know tell him and he was kind of old school and he, you know, made me write a and I I can't write. I get always had somebody help me. And he makes me write something out and makes me draw a picture of a bike. And he's why is this guy smiling? Because he got the bike for his birthday. I'm like, I'm not being a wise ass, he's asking me. So finally he's berating me on my spelling. And you know, at the point, I go, wait a minute. This is in my mind, I go, this is a test, right? I'm gonna I want to jump over the desk and beat him. And I go, I can't do that. And he was just old school, and but a wonderful individual, and we owe a lot to John Barry. Uh his brother goes on to become the public safety commissioner at Mass, too. Um, so he says he does this place up in Gardner that just opened up with these two hippies, exactly how it said it was called the On-Site Academy. So I'm thinking Academy, my department's thinking academy. They send me up there with another, it's a true story. Undercover car, guns, ammo, everything. And Hayden, Dr. Doug will tell you the story too. And I pull around, I'm looking for this place. The time was a duplex up in Gardner on Mill Street. I pull in, it was like something you see one out of one flew out of the cook design. There's a bunch of people smoking cigarettes, and I'm like, hey, is this the onsite? There's a little sign, and they're like, Yeah, yeah, yeah, come on in. And I go get the stuff. Like, hi there, what are you doing? I'm like, well, where's the ranges? This is an academy. No, you you've been screwed over. This is mental health, and I wanted out of there. And then I meet this, you know, I come in, they feed me, the food was amazing. And uh then I meet this amazing, amazing individual who changed my life. It was Dr. Hayden Duggan. And uh he calls me into his office and how you doing. I said, I made the mistake of saying fine, which you never do to Dr. Duggan. And uh he realized that wow, this is gonna be my career, and I love this guy. And it was that time that he offered me to come back for a week and to get involved with pair support. We were it was 96 and we were just getting the Mitchell model going to hair and mass. So I paid for it out of my pocket. Well, back up. I go to the Revere Police Department and say, hey, listen, I want to go up there, and they told me, no, you don't have a problem. Mind your own business. I took vacation and went up there and got trained myself, and I interceded with the union and became the uh the pair support person. Went over to Boston PD, which was the the founding fathers of this movement, and I hooked up with them, and that was and that's how we started. And I've been and I never looked back. And when I retired, um, I've realized I had an issue with the bottle. Um, you know, and I got sober thanks to Boston, and I stuck with On site. I was volunteering, then I went on staff with them. Uh I got my license. I didn't want to do what you were doing, I didn't want the LCSW. Um, I liked more of the critical incident, and I like dealing with the substance abuse. I know we need to have an issue with it in our field. So um I wanted to be like this Mike Miles, who's one of the founding fathers of that movement up in Lowell, one of my mentors, and uh and that's how I started. And uh 14 about three years ago, I'm doing a training. Uh and well, back up, I meet this uh I didn't know what to take over when the first time I met her. She was very passionate, was my partner Jane. And we helped somebody, and we actually law I ended up losing this person to an addiction after about a year working. We and we didn't see each other for probably 11 years. We we talked here and there, we knew each other, and then we reconnected at a training, and on site happened to say we needed a clinician. She had a great practice, I didn't know why she wanted to come up there, and then when she came to work at us at OnSite, I was taken back. I never met a clinician that dynamic. Um, and then we she brought me into NEBPA, which is the big police union, and uh, and then we opened a small practice with uh her partner Amy tooling, and uh here I am two and a half years later, closer to two years later, it and we're growing, and I've it's a dream, it's been a dream control. Before you forget, what's the name of the agency you guys work with? Well, it's first respond to wellness of Merrimack Valley. I want to make sure people know that. Yeah, and if we help anybody, it's not about the money with us. Um any BPA, uh, and and I'm I was with the FOP prior to that, and I still do a lot with FOP fraternally on the national. I think Sherry Martin is probably the most influential person in law enforcement uh uh support mental health that's out there. Uh I don't think she gets enough credit for the work she does. And uh so um yeah, I I've been blessed. And the the union has given me a lot of opportunities to to help people.

SPEAKER_01: 14:35

And I know that you've helped a lot of people because I've heard of it. Um I mean I wouldn't be hit talking to you if you do what you do. You know, there's so many places I want to go. The first thing I'm gonna say is while we're doing it on video, um afterwards I'm gonna shake your hand, not only for your service for this country, and I do appreciate that more than you know. I also want to shake your hand on your sobriety, but it's a little awkward in the studio so I appreciate that. But I really appreciate that personally because I think that those are little things that people don't understand, that these low recognitions are so important. And you know, it's not about bragging or anything like that, because that ain't in that's not within your DNA, and I know you. Yeah, but I wanted to say I want to make sure.

SPEAKER_02: 15:18

I appreciate that, but it's team. Like I come from a team concept, it's not an I concept. I can't do my work without Steve and Jane and Amy and Hayden. And if if this is why I I almost got fired from on-site, and I people who know me, I don't I'll speak up and I will if you're disrespecting our first responders and you're out here for the money, I will open up a can of whip ass and I will expose you. And I've had my mouth gets me in trouble. Jane has to reel me in all the time, but I'm still a street cop, and I'll never forget where I came from.

SPEAKER_01: 15:54

Bingo. That's exactly where I was going. What I think happens a lot is people don't for they forget where they came from. And you then, and uh, we can talk a little later on about the other stuff too, but I someone we both know, Tommy Turko. Another guy who remembers where he came from, and shout out to Tommy, I'm sure that he'll listen.

SPEAKER_02: 16:12

It's he, you know, I've known him for a while because I I had I I was a lobbyist for the FOP assisting lobbyist, and his, you know, working for he's he's one of us, he's from the business. Um, he's got skin in the game in the business, but he's such a you know, I gotta give credit to Jerry Flynn that came before him to set the groundwork, right? Jerry sets the groundwork, but Tommy just came into our agency and has given us Card Blanche B and Jane. And he's our primary focus on NEPPA, we just had a convention, is working with our retirees and working with mental health. And we're the only union, uh, police union that has a full-time staff dedicated to crisis intervention and drug and alcohol. Now we're going into the retiree field, which was much needed. And that's an understatement. I I the only problem I have, and and my partner's Jane, and I will tell you, is I gotta wash myself that, you know, I have that work-life balance. Because I'll I there was came a time where I was, they they told me they weren't gonna send me out any calls, so I had to take time out. I'm not used to taking time out. Um first respond, I had this, I'm not gonna get into it, but I had a uh a person who was a supervisor at on site, and she's no longer there, and I don't really don't care. Um she she didn't come from our world, and she's trying to say, you gotta slow down. I'm like, first responders you don't understand, can't go from a hundred miles an hour to zero. It's a bad spot. I can go to 60, recharge, and come back up and get into the fight. And uh that's why sometimes I have a little bit of heartburn with some of the the folks that come out of these, you know, high-end schools that don't understand. They oh I know how to where the first responder is. If you don't know what it's like to go to a roll call, you don't know what it's like to to be tired to go to work and pray that you drive the car into the get back to the station to take a nap because you have to. But if it was it wasn't for my partner, she she called me on my shit and she says, You got a house in New Hampshire and you got a boat, what are you doing? Right. And you know, I have a bad habit of smoking cigars, it's my only vice. But I learned I could take two calls on the boat and spend the rest of the day on the lake. Right. And it was the best thing. And I got back, I lost my just like any retiree, I lost my my hobbies. Um, and I could do have a family. Um, I got back into you know sport and clay shooting, and you know, you us Italians, we don't do golf. You haven't heard of uh an Italian Winter Masters, right? No, uh that's it. So we we do Italian shotguns and we eat a lot, but yeah, so that's where I'm at now.

SPEAKER_01: 18:51

I'm a lefty, so that's why I'm bad at golf. So yeah, no. So but no, I think that one of the things you brought in so many good points, and I don't know where to start. Pick one. But I will go with a couple of things. Hayden's Hayden's been on my podcast. Hayden is gonna be back on my podcast, amazing guy. And on-site is one of the best services we have in the area, you know. And I think that for me, one of the things that we can you we can go in so many directions right now. But one of the things is the treatment part. Because the other part that's really important to me, and if you've ever listened to my podcast, you've heard me say this constantly. Cultural competency is the key for therapists. And unfortunately, therapists think that you can read what roll call is in a book.

SPEAKER_02: 19:37

We don't have enough time. Um, I know.

SPEAKER_01: 19:39

No, but hey, doesn't mean you were limited to one episode, man.

SPEAKER_02: 19:42

Listen, uh, you know, these programs that are coming out, they all want to hang up the shingle and say we're the best. They want to buy you. Um Hayden on site is a great program, but it's not enough sometimes.

SPEAKER_01: 19:54

And I'll I'll interrupt you if you don't mind. It's it's a good program, but we can't have Only one good program.

SPEAKER_02: 20:01

There's only six bets.

SPEAKER_01: 20:02

That's what I mean.

SPEAKER_02: 20:05

He's going into the right direction. He's finally going to go into the retiree and family. We've me and Jane we vet everybody we sent to. We tortured these people. Dr. Odom took the onsite out in First Respondent of Wellness of California. My brother-in-law is a uh firefighter. He's my hero. Kid's amazing. He's LA County firefighter, um, marine, badass, you know. But they use first responder wellness of California, it's about six years old. They took the onsite cart concept and put it on steroids. And I have the greatest success. They're full first responder. Um, they're coming actually coming up this week to speak in Boston. Um, we're trying to use them. Um, they have a retiree program that's a 30-day program. Uh, but again, you it's you have to get somebody on a plane to get down to California, which it's beautiful. It's a long beach. The program's amazing. So, but we're not exclusive. We use, I get three or four that I use. There's people that used to be good that I won't send anybody to. Right. Um, there's one at home program with the rep I can't stand. I will not send people to this person uh because they disrespected me and they disrespected uh I don't think they do a good job. Right. Um, there's another couple other programs, and I'm not gonna go on online and tell you who they are, but you can see that that they they're all about the the the the old money dollar and they're not about taking care of the person. And uh we have to and we vet them. That's why I get one shot to some I get one shot to send somebody away. And if they go down there and they don't have a good time, right? We're done in my credibility. So it's we have uh probably three or four places uh that we use that we constantly vet. One just changed. I went up and physically seen the place, and the rep said you know you're not gonna use us anymore because we changed. I go, you're right. You know, yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 21:55

But I think that that's the problem, is that we need to vet these things.

SPEAKER_02: 21:57

You have to hold people accountable.

SPEAKER_01: 21:59

Right. And I think that that's why like I'm gonna go down. Um, this will come out probably in late November, early December, and I'm going down in January to the IAFF uh Center of Excellence now.

SPEAKER_02: 22:08

I'm on the way let me know. I'll probably go with you because uh Hannah.

SPEAKER_01: 22:11

Uh you're in touch with Hannah? Hiernah's I talk to Hannah once a week. She she's been on my podcast two weeks ago. Like I was about two months ago.

SPEAKER_02: 22:19

And she's a phenomenal program, right? She's so amazing. But they they get the fo for folks that don't know, that's the International Brotherhood Firefighters, that's who they use. But again, we can't be just exclusive to them because of insurance. I'll give you one. I'll give you a lot of people.

SPEAKER_01: 22:33

But let's let's cut let's cut all this. I'm gonna cut the BS because I I don't like this, and I'll tell you why. I hate that we need to be careful of what we say because it's not silos. Hayden can't do it on his own. I can't do it on his own. No, we need T. You can't do it on. I don't care who get gives the help, I don't care who wins the money as long as they're competent and the person gets help. That's all I care about.

SPEAKER_02: 22:54

That's an even and and that's the key, right? And you have to you have to have multiple sources. Right. Right? Because no, it's not one size fits all. No. Um we had an issue where I like futures recovery down in Florida. Uh Stacy Charter, Ed, used to work for Genesis House. We were the only game in town at one point, right? Right. So they do the NFL and HHLD have PTOT. I had a, you know, I gave a contract with the Lowell Firefighter uh union. Well, you have somebody that can chart. All these places that we talk about, they don't can't do PTOT. They have to outsource, right? Well, guess what? They have a first responder program that does real good work down there. Um, I love the program, but you can take a first responder who's suffering physically, put them down there, and they're getting treatment for their occupational injury, which might not, where they might not be able to go back to work, or they might be stuck going back to work. So we have them as a tool, right? Correct. No, and we have to have, we know who does strong, like strong mental health work just for first responders. We know that California Dr. Odom is probably right now outside of on site, which is only a week, probably the best in the business. Right. Um, I'm you know, I'm talking, you know, I put 25, I think 20 people out there last year to California. You know, and uh and I put people all over the place, but when you're talking mental health, they do a good job. And they're also their therapists, here's the secret they're culturally competent. He whole they're coming from the field. Right. He hires them. You talk to a therapist out there, I was a cop, I was a firefighter. Um, you know, and so can they change? Absolutely. Our job is to keep on top of them.

SPEAKER_01: 24:39

Right. That's all we know. And I think that's the that's the the mentality that I want to change. This is some of the stuff I went pretty quick. Oh no, well, I mean, um, I'd love to keep you on, but uh we'll see what we can do. Uh but bottom line for me is that what people don't understand is that the cultural competency is what people want. Uh the guys, you know, come in and I I know what's what's funny is that people don't get that in my profession sometimes. Most of the guys will come in, they're either super serious because they got something they're really on their mind, or they'll bust my balls right away because I'm a Montreal Canadiens fan or whatever. And I know when they busted my balls, I'm like, oh okay, they're already open to me.

SPEAKER_02: 25:19

Chris Stylin, that's all I'm gonna say. But I think that people don't get that brother-in-law was line of duty death. People don't know that.

SPEAKER_01: 25:25

Oh, I didn't know that.

SPEAKER_02: 25:27

People don't realize that he's done a lot for constructions if we survived this.

SPEAKER_01: 25:30

So But I think that that's what it you know, you what you're talking about is so important. And one of the things that, you know, there's a few things I I love is that, and we we gotta work together on this. We have uh Behind the Badge and Beyond that we do as a group here, and we hope to expand it one day to very to train therapists, to train first responders on mental health with the right cultural competency. But I think that the bottom line is that we've for too long in this field, and you correct me if I'm wrong, people were siloed. Oh, this is my referrals, these are my things, these are at I don't care. Like Joe, you you make millions of dollars. I don't care. Yeah, you know, but I and I know that's not your goal. I'm just giving an example. And I think that's the other part that I find is frustrating. Thank you, New England, and particularly Massachusetts, and I calling out everyone. I don't care who gets the resource, who gets the referral, who like as long as they're competent and the person gets.

SPEAKER_02: 26:21

Well, you the reason why I love working with you, you don't have an ego. And and the ego is what is what kills this business. And I, you know, I could talk for hours on that with the with some of the leaders on law enforcement, and that they hurt our people. Um, but yeah, I want to be right sized. As soon as I get out of right being right sized, um, that's when I I go back to selling hot dogs. Um which I I mean I want to do this for five years. I want to have an end game. You know, I I'm fortunate to still have retirement 13 years. Um I got a 17-year-old great son, he's gonna be going to college. Um, I want to have an end game.

SPEAKER_01: 26:58

I think that that's the other part too, is I talk a lot, and again, another thing we can go to, you talk about retirees. That's whole concepts. Uh, but you know, like how many times did I read the stat that was it like five years. Yeah, five years. Still the same. And I I tell these guys who I have a couple of guys getting close to retirement right now, and I said to them, we're gonna start talking about it. Well, it's in two years. I'm like, it's time to talk about it. Well, we can do a whole segment on our program, but we just had a chief from Bolton just dropped off a heart attack. I know, I just saw that.

SPEAKER_02: 27:29

Great guy. Um, he you know, so And he's a community guy, which is Yeah, you know, if you don't have a plan and a purpose, we're we're adapting the recovery coach model to retiree coaching with NEVPA. And Tom Turkl's the key. If it was Tom Trekle's the guy that said, hey, this is gonna be done, let's do it and go good and done it. So we're we're you know, I'll tell you later, I'll tell you off camera what we're doing with that. Um, but yeah, you know, we're gonna be people can retire, you can be on the job a week and get hurt and have to retire. So it's important that we expose that to everyone.

SPEAKER_01: 28:02

You expose everyone, and you know, one of the my first interventions, I was working with a uh Mass State police who uh someone told me there was a some line of duty death, and everyone was checking on him for the first couple of weeks. He's like, I don't know what to do anymore. I said, That's the problem. You can't like two weeks, people like grief does not have a timeline, it's not like two weeks, you're good. And he said he continued following up until well, I had I don't know, I'm I'm assuming he still is, and he's like, that changed that that partner's life, that woman's life.

SPEAKER_02: 28:34

As we end this, I could say is if you have somebody going on internal investigations or you can see an entry, check on them. Just keep checking on them, get them to Steve, get the reach out to me, Rich, Mass Pair Support Network, call on site, check on them, check on them, check on them.

SPEAKER_01: 28:49

Well, what I'm gonna do is I'm gonna say, let's finish the episode here. And I thank you for your time. Simple quick output all your late too. Too quick. No, no, it's not gonna be too quick. We're gonna do this again.

SPEAKER_02: 28:58

Okay.

SPEAKER_01: 28:58

All right. And um, for those of you who are gonna be joining us for uh episode 233, uh 234, I'm looking forward to it, and I'll talk to you then.

SPEAKER_00: 29:10

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