Resilience Development in Action: First Responder Mental Health

E. 234 Why Pairing Clinicians With Police Saves Lives And Community Trust (Part 2)

• Steve Bisson, Sarah Abbott • Season 12 • Episode 234

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What if the most powerful tool on a crisis scene isn’t a badge or a diagnosis, but a practiced partnership? We continue our conversation with Dr. Sarah Abbott about co-response and unpack how pairing clinicians with police changes the outcome of calls involving mental health, substance use, and high-stress events—from domestic incidents with kids present to house fires and welfare checks where information is thin.

We trace the arc from a pioneering certificate at William James College to statewide intensives built on scenario-based, hands-on training. Instead of chasing labels, the curriculum teaches behavior reading, de-escalation under pressure, and language that preserves dignity while lowering risk. We dig into veterans’ mental health and firearm culture, highlighting lethal means safety training that helps clinicians speak credibly about storage, temporary transfer, and time-limited access without shaming or seizing. A vivid field story shows how clear communication with dispatch and officers can soften the room, protect everyone on scene, and build trust that lasts past one call.

The conversation widens to where co-response goes next. Through Abbott Solutions for Justice and the International Co-Responder Alliance, these practices are spreading across states and overseas, with growing momentum on college campuses that function like small cities. We explore why campus police and clinicians need shared playbooks, how programs like Johns Hopkins are leading, and what it takes to turn skepticism into skill—consistently, respectfully, and at scale. If you care about first responder wellness, community safety, and practical tools that work at 2 a.m., this is your roadmap for doing crisis response better.

Subscribe for more conversations on co-response, first responder mental health, and practical de-escalation. Share this episode with a colleague who needs these tools, and leave a quick review to help others find the show.

To reach Sarah, please visit her website at: https://www.abbottsolutionsforjustice.com

Sarah can also befound on LinkedIn at: https://www.linkedin.com/company/abbott-solutions-for-justice-llc/?viewAsMember=true


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SPEAKER_00:

Welcome to Resilience Development in Action with Steve Beesholm. This is the podcast dedicated to first responder mental health, helping police, fire, EMS, dispatchers, and paramedics create better growth environments for themselves and their teams. Let's get started.

SPEAKER_03:

You know, you've heard me talk about this before. Get free.ai. Great for your note-taking, good for your transcript, good for your goals, good for everything that you do on a HIPAA-compliant nature. And if you use code C50 at checkout, you will get$50 off your first month. And also if you get a whole year, you will also get 10% off the whole year. But getfree.ai has freed me to do more things with my life, including work on other passions. So get free to do your notes, get freed from doing your goals. Getfree.ai with code Steve50 to get$50 off your first month. Want to talk a little bit about William James and what you do there?

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, sure. So uh William James College is a small uh but mighty uh training uh college for Massachusetts based uh social workers and law enforcement who are involved in co-response. The college is uh well known for our forensic programming. And when I was maybe five years ago, I I started to realize that I wanted to have a bigger impact, you know, when when you get older or further in your career, you're like, what's my impact and what's the legacy I want to leave uh behind? And part of that was I I've been in individually training people for decades, individually, um one at a time to do this work, or presenting one one-on-one training with people, and I wanted to expand upon that. And I believed that the field um doesn't have a credentialing tool for co-responders, it wasn't even a job that you could apply for when I when we started this work, we you know, and now it is an actual career path. So I went to William James because I looked at the material that we have, and they had a they have a fantastic program for training clinicians to work in the court system. They have a fantastic um training program for uh uh clinicians to work in educational settings, schools, and prisons, uh re-entry work, right? And I was looking at the continuum and I was like, where's the police? And so I uh met with uh colleagues there, Jay Toomey is the Jay, wow, I haven't heard Jay's name, Jay. Yep, he's uh the uh the chair of the psych uh degree program, the psyche program. And uh he was there. He also did some co-response back in the day, part-time, and in Framingham.

SPEAKER_03:

Oh, I remember.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, so I called him up and I said, Do you think the school would be interested in setting something up that is um dedicated to law enforcement and to their co-response partners? And he said, I think probably we are. And I had a couple of meetings. I met with Nick Cavino, who's the president, who um is a tremendous um force um and understands the systems entirely. His dad was an Everett police officer, uh, which is unusual uh in itself, and also lent itself to him understanding law enforcement as a career, but also as the son of a law enforcement officer. So he had a couple of different um lenses to look at it through. And he was thrilled to um hear about the work I'd been doing with co-responds and welcomed me in and gave me an opportunity to develop a certificate program, which is a 10-graduate credit training program. We've graduated 58 uh law enforcement and co-responders statewide to date, and then um with DMH funding, we have launched a set of co-response intensive trainings, which are five-day, uh and we do those several times a year across the state so that we cover um we cover our jurisdictions the entire state. So uh we we go regionally with that, we do standalone trainings, uh, we have webinar series, which is monthly on all things intersecting police and people in crisis, and um other trainings that we do standalone. Uh it's been fantastic. We do a lot of technical assistance for Commonwealth police agencies and and organizations that are launching co-response. The the model has has uh you know it has blown up in Massachusetts, especially over the past five years. I think as a result of the George Floyd um murder, we uh many police departments recognized that you know they needed to do something different, even though they it wasn't our departments that um were responsible for that. It was an opportunity, I think, to rethink the way in which we respond to people. And so, you know, it's been very rewarding to see police officers come in to our program a little bit skeptical, a little bit not sure, and to leave with um with a set of skills because it's kind of non-traditional for an academic setting, but we're very skills-based.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

Um, we're very skills-based. We do a lot of scenario-based training, we do a lot of experiential learning, we do a lot of hands-on work uh with real tools that they can use in the field. It's much less for me about diagnostic work, which I always found kind of not as interesting. Um, and and really the diagnosis of people in a crisis doesn't play a significant role. Uh, it's the behavior that that's uh you're dealing with and and how to and how to use uh your skills to to de-escalate, no matter what the diagnosis. So that's been the work at William James. Uh, we are very fortunate to have an environment that welcomes law enforcement. I think in the beginning, law enforcement was probably a bit trepidatious about going on to a university, college, campus.

SPEAKER_03:

I know for a fact that one of them was.

SPEAKER_01:

And uh we are and things have changed, and um, you know, we we welcome uh police because they have one of the most difficult jobs. We pile everything on them, uh, we expect it to be perfect every single time, and it's human beings that are, you know, that are kind of involved in this. So uh that's really a little bit about what we've been doing up there.

SPEAKER_03:

Well, if you ever need someone else to help you, let me know. Thank you. I would love to be part of that because I I I truly believe in it, frankly. Um and I'll put that in the show notes with um other stuff, obviously, but I'll put that in the show notes just so people know. The other part that you forgot, I think, with William James, who have done fantastic and have been the best trainings I've been to for this particular population is the veterans population.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, I mean, we um, you know, I think part of the partnership, you know, in in in some ways law enforcement and military culture are similar. Yeah um, they're largely male-dominated, they're largely um, although police are expected to be warriors and guardians, um, and you know, vacillate between those two, which is which can be tough for them. But also, you know, the stigma of mental health is strong across both of those disciplines. The uh William James College uh Veterans Affairs um staff really came up with a fantastic lethal means training for clinicians who want to or do work with military veterans that or military members that are not comfortable with talking about or managing firearms. And as we know, firearms is a large part of that culture, and we want to be sure that we know when we're clinicians, if someone is struggling, that we can have the right language to talk to them about their firearms. We're not comfortable with it. We're not comfortable asking the question. I think sometimes we don't want to know the answer, um, but we have to ask it because it's so obvious that that is a threat if they are feeling suicide. And we want to help them safely and remain in control about how to put that somewhere safely for a period of time. It's not about handing you firearms in or not being licensed, it's about taking a break from access to that lethal means. And clinicians come in and it's in person and they get to handle a firearm, you know, it's decommissioned or um whatever the language is for that, but they they get to handle it, they get to see, um, so that they could potentially talk through with a veteran or military or anyone in crisis with a firearm presence, um, how to dismantle it, how to safely give it to someone else for safeguarding. So it's very impactful training, and um again, you know, really speaks to the innovation and the dedication to serving those who serve.

SPEAKER_03:

And I think that that's why I want to mention it because I love their trainings and it's very good. I also want to mention because you mentioned about how police and clinicians handle it. Yeah, there was a call I went on for the co-response where the individual was military, yeah, suicidal, had guns in the house. Yeah. I started the interview there, he didn't put them out. Yeah, but knowing full well that that would occur, yeah if I said, you know, if we're gonna do a section, because he was struggling, I want to save the details, we had to section him. Yeah. Like I said, we'll take it easy, we'll go outside. Went outside. He was actually chatting and laughing. I said, okay, call the psychiatrist, got the section 12. And the police officer who was informed that the guns are not there, but they're in the house, but they're not there. He came in in such a different matter because he knew how to interact. Then because you know, if you say, Oh, yeah, the guy has 14, we do know that in the system.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03:

So he told me, he's like, Thank you for saying that to us with dispatch, because then it was so much easier. I came in not stressed.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah, yeah. And that's something I I want to mention that call because that's why I want to mention the veterans. I unfortunately was like improvising at best. And so you learn on a crisis theme anyway.

SPEAKER_02:

Yep.

SPEAKER_03:

It's not a science. And after that, I got a lot of like more training and learned about it and just how to handle it. And it's not so intuitive. I just got lucky in my opinion.

SPEAKER_01:

Well, um, maybe, or you know, I I do think that um we have to face that head-on with people. We're adults, you know, talking about um people in crisis who uh for some reason have come to our attention. And I think that's one of the other things that I noticed the most was we don't see that many people through the police who call about themselves. There tends to be someone else calling about them. And that you don't have the full picture. You and and it's so uh open to exploitation or abuse that anyone can call any police department and say, This person said this, then you need to go and do a well-being check. And we we go and do a well-being check. So I think being honest with people about why we're there, uh what our concerns are, and um, you know, utilizing uh keeping them in control, letting them be in charge of their firearms and who gets them, and you know, rather than taking them away, I think that's always the best way to go. Because as we know, you you know, many people are repeat people for the police. And how you how you are treated by police officer one time really will set your attitude towards police in the future. So every call is an opportunity to um to present wealth for police so that the next person that comes isn't up against it. Oh, that person lied, or they said that they weren't gonna take my guns, and then they came and take. You know, you really do need to have credibility in a policing, especially in a in uh one community where you see many of the same people repeatedly.

SPEAKER_03:

Right. And I remember the other part that you've done with JDP. I keep on giving you a lot of credit because I really truly believe that this is the one of the best programs I've ever been part of.

SPEAKER_01:

Same. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03:

Um I remember you had with the I don't know if you remember, but I do. You and Paul said, we're gonna go to Paul Chasson. Yeah. We're gonna go talk, I should call him whatever his title was, but Chief Extraordinaire.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03:

I I'm sorry, Paul. I don't remember your title. I apologize.

SPEAKER_02:

We might actually have finally retired for good now.

SPEAKER_03:

Um I remember you guys said it said, Steve, we want you to come with us to we're gonna meet with the Brazilian. Oh, yes, absolutely. And again, I don't want to get into ice. I did that's not my point here, but this is years ago. Yeah, yeah. And you you you did a lot to educate that we're not here to harm if you're going through DV or whatever. And that was the other innovation of being a co-response. We were able to go to these things as look, we're collaborative, we're not opposed. That's right. And I I remember you, and I remember you telling me I have to go there, and I went, like, what maybe it was uh the other Sarah, but one of you told me, and you were No, I was there, it was raining out.

SPEAKER_01:

We were standing outside in the rain, waiting. I remember that. I remember you.

SPEAKER_03:

But I think that that's the other part that you brought in with uh the co-response model is being able to reach out to the community in a non-threatening fashion. Yep. And I think Paul had not shown up in his uniform either.

SPEAKER_01:

No, so no, and I I think on that note, it's really it is a win for the community. I remember going on calls in the early days, and I'd show up, and they would one of this person said, Who's this, your wife? Because they didn't even know what my role was. And I was like, No, I'm not his wife. Um uh, but I am a social worker, and they were like, Why are you here? And I said, Well, the police have a program. And um, they were like, I really didn't think the police cared that much to have a social worker. And I said, Well, they do. And uh she said, Well, what did they do wrong? Did they did they mess something up to get this? And I said, No, it wasn't a punishment. This was actually a voluntary, uh, you know, Deputy Chief uh Davis saw a need and filled it. Um, and after that, I think she was like, Oh, and I and the program does universally get a lot of support from the community because to your point it's expanded so much from what it started as, right? In the beginning, it was really about diverting people from arrest and getting them to treatment. It today, uh, you know, I did a training last week, and there were 14 different um services that a co-responder can provide. Some of those include mediation within the community, whether it's fences or immigration, others include death notifications and um being on scene for tragic events and mass casualty events. And the utility of a mental health professional on those calls is invaluable. And it's not obvious at first, you know, but when she you do that and you have you find a role and you stick to it. Oftentimes on calls, I would be helping manage the kids that were present for a domestic. Um, the police are managing the domestics, nothing to do with me, but there are these two kids in their pajamas who watch this and are now terrified and they don't know where they're gonna go. And mum's gone to hospital and dad's going to jail. So who's who's gonna do that? I often thought that who would be doing this if we weren't here, and that's really what part of what kept me going.

SPEAKER_03:

Well, I I remember those calls, the DV calls with the kids and the victims sometimes.

SPEAKER_02:

Yep.

SPEAKER_03:

Um the other one that I remember is going to a fire and the family watching their house burn down, and I was just sitting there, and if they needed to talk, they talked, and if they didn't talk, they didn't talk. But it was just amazing to have that perspective. And I think the other part that, you know, I think when we started, we were trying to get away from people who are doing like small-time vandalism and trespassing. Yeah, so jail diversion was actually the goal because we didn't have the education that we have today.

SPEAKER_02:

Correct.

SPEAKER_03:

And we've evolved it so much. Like, I mean, I consider my evolution of being a therapist for first responders directly link to this work.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03:

Uh yeah. So I think that the the change and all that, and I think that what this brings up to me is you know, I want to hear a little bit about what you're doing and uh your work. Um plug away everything you want because I I went to the website. Like I always tell people, I don't lie. I went to a website, great stuff on that website, but I'd like you to talk about it.

SPEAKER_01:

Sure. So uh about five years ago, I launched a small boutique consulting uh business, Abbott Solutions for Justice. And the mission of that is the same mission that I've had throughout my work, and that is to uh improve the outcomes of people, all peoples who come into contact with the police during a mental health crisis or substance use crisis, emotional crisis. It doesn't really matter what the etiology of that is, and I set this company up as a vehicle to do this out of state and out of country because um most of my work formally has been focused on Massachusetts, and I've recently in the last three or four years really wanted to expand and grow the program across the country. I was fortunate enough to be a founding board member of the International Co-Responder Alliance, ICRA, which is our kind of um the equivalent of our trade organization. We um the mission of that is to spread uh co-response. So as a board member on that, I've been very active in um establishing uh the co-responder conferences, which are annually. Uh, the next one is next June in Dallas, and that you know always has about a thousand twelve hundred people from across the country. So uh some of the work I've been doing with Abbott Solutions as the work I'm doing in Ireland has been through that company. I've uh we were in the Martha's Vineyard for a period of time doing some discrete training down there. Um, but I really want to spread to, I'm really interested in doing work with university and college campuses around co-response. Some of the larger uh campuses across the country and the world, but particularly across this country, are like mini cities. Um they may have uh thousands of acres and hundreds of buildings, and a police agency that is even less trained than municipal policing campus law enforcement.

SPEAKER_03:

So you can go to go to Assumption and go see Steve. He was right there with us.

SPEAKER_01:

Yep, and uh you know, I I I think that's the next evolution of this. I 100% agree. Um because college campuses are a a microcosm for society. There are a lot of people um in distress on college campuses that um don't know where to go or don't have adequate um the higher awareness of the mental health of this group is significant.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah. And because of that, there's a lot more demand.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, it's easy to recognize. And um and you know, these are young people in transition uh to adulthood, right? We remember it vaguely. Um and and they need um uh you know support living away from home, with relationships, with grades, with um with exams and stress and and DV and drugs and all the other things that are on college campuses. So I'm really impressed with the work um of John Hopkins.

SPEAKER_03:

John Hopkins, yeah, I love this work.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, they have a fantastic co-response uh program there on the college campus. I think that's one of the ways in which I'd like to work more in the future. Um, but I'm open to uh small one-day, two-day, five-day uh training programs for law enforcement and behavioral health partners, uh, all the way up to large systems. I really enjoy puzzles. I enjoy putting pieces together and figuring out problems. So that's really a little bit more about what I've been up to.

SPEAKER_03:

Website address?

SPEAKER_01:

Yep, www.abbot solutions for justice.com.

SPEAKER_03:

Well, I'm gonna put that in the show notes anyway, but I wanted you to say it. But Sarah, um, it's a long time coming. So happy you came.

SPEAKER_02:

Thank you.

SPEAKER_03:

If you ever want to come back, you let me know. Thank you. Uh you'll always have open door.

SPEAKER_01:

Appreciate that, Steve.

SPEAKER_03:

Um and when I go to Limerick, uh, yes, Limerick. Limerick. Sorry, I gotta get the Irish after me. Um I will absolutely let you know. So if you can tell me who to talk to, I'll just go say hi.

SPEAKER_01:

I'll connect you. They're they love it when people will come and visit, and they'll open the doors uh for you and show you around and show show you the co-response program is active there.

SPEAKER_03:

And that's you know, such a de near and near thing in my heart. I know. Um I can't thank you enough.

SPEAKER_01:

Thank you. Yeah, thank you to your listeners for being interested in this. Thanks for the invitation. And um, I'll come back when I have another announcement to make, which may be in the future.

SPEAKER_03:

You have open, like you like the studio, so we're gonna do the studio ten minutes away. So um thank you for listening to episode 234, part A and B or one and two. I'll see you for episode 235. Thank you, guys.

SPEAKER_00:

Thank you. Thanks, everyone. Please like, subscribe, and follow this podcast on your favorite platform. A glowing review is always helpful. And as a reminder, this podcast is for informational, educational, and entertainment purposes only. If you're struggling with a mental health or substance abuse issue, please reach out to a professional counselor for consultation. If you are in a mental health crisis, call 988 for assistance. This number is available in the United States and Canada.

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