Resilience Development in Action: First Responder Mental Health

E. 242 Please Stop Asking Cops About Dead Bodies Part 1

• Steve Bisson, Susan Roggendorf • Season 13 • Episode 242

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Ever been told to “suck it up” after a call that split your world in two? We challenge that script with a grounded, respectful look at how first responders can access care that actually helps. Steve sits down with licensed clinician and podcaster Susan Roggendorf for a candid, unfiltered conversation about culture, stigma, and practical support for police, fire, EMS, dispatch, ER, ICU, NICU, and corrections.

We unpack why the tired question “What’s the worst thing you’ve seen?” is not only unhelpful but harmful—and what clinicians should ask instead. Susan shares her background serving LGBTQ clients and first responders, detailing how role-specific stressors shape symptoms: from dispatchers carrying incomplete stories and auditory flashbacks, to EMS haunted by pediatric calls, to ER staff absorbing wave after wave of crisis without pause. Together, we outline a trauma-informed approach that centers consent, pacing, and control, building skills that fit real shifts: brief grounding, tactical breathing, movement that discharges stress, and cognitive resets you can use between calls.

This episode also draws a clear map of the first responder circle without watering it down. We talk moral injury, hypervigilance, sleep disruption, and why peer support must be more than a checkbox. You’ll hear podcasting war stories, yes, but also a deeper point: humility and repair are part of resilience, whether in a studio or on a scene. If you’ve ever sat through a therapy session that felt like a TV script, this is your reset. Expect real language, straight answers, and tools you can put to work immediately.

To reach Susan, please go to https://psychhub.com/us/provider/susan-roggendorf/1316326036

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SPEAKER_00:

Welcome to Resilience Development in Action with Steve B. Holmes. This is the podcast dedicated to first responder mental health, helping police, fire, EMS, dispatchers, and paramedics create better growth environments for themselves and their team. Let's get started.ai.

SPEAKER_01:

You heard me talk about it. I'm gonna keep on talking about it because I love it. I've had about a year and a half, 18 months practice with it, and I still enjoy it. And it saves me time and it saves me energy. Free.ai takes your note, makes a transcript from what you're talking with a client, just press record. And it does either transcript, it does a subjective, and an objective with a letter if needed for your client. And for whoever might get it. So for$99 a month, it saves me so much time that it's worthwhile. And if you do it for a whole year, guess what? You get 10% off. More important. This is what you got. You are my audience that's a resilience development. If you do listen to this and you want to use free.ai, uh put in the code C50 in the promo code area. And you will get$50 off in addition to everything you just got. Get free from writing your notes. Get free from even writing your transcripts. Use that to your advantage. Free.ai. A great service. Go to getfree.ai and you will get one of the best services that will save you time and money. And I highly appreciate that. Well, hi everyone, and welcome to episode 242. If you haven't listened to episode 241, it was with Leah Moroni. We had a great time talking about different things about mental health and first responders, which brings us to this episode with a friend of I consider a friend of the podcast. I built I was on her podcast a couple months ago. She's gonna she's now like gonna be on mine, and I wish she was on every year. So we'll probably have to make it a something that we do regularly. Not only because I feel like we have good conversation, it is truly someone I like, I want to go to Iowa, which who wants to go to Iowa on purpose to go meet her. So Susan Rogendorf, welcome to Resilience Development in Action.

SPEAKER_03:

Steve, I you know, I I'm a I'm born bred Iowa, and I agree with you. It's like I'm not sure why you'd want to come here. I mean, Des Moines is fantastic. There's a lot of fun things to do there. Iowa City, they have a lot of fun stuff. We have the University of Iowa Hospitals up there too, do great work. But beyond that, you know, come out and enjoy the soybeans and cornfields. I I don't know what to tell you. We got the Mississippi River, that's our claim to fame. You know, there are a lot of people like to visit that because of literature and history, but I ain't got nothing for you on that one.

SPEAKER_01:

Well, maybe I'll try to manage it during the football season and go there for a college football game of some sort.

SPEAKER_03:

I would highly recommend that. That is another big draw here. So, and we do have a hockey, well, I wouldn't say huge hockey fandom in that, but you know, we've got we've got our local one here in the Quad Cities, and so we have some winter sports and stuff too, but football is where it's at. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_01:

You've got look, I'm gonna say something that's weird for people who don't know how much I love hockey, but I do know you have the Iowa Wild, which is an AHL team, and it's Minnesota Wilds farm team. And I actually know one player on that team, so so that's why I also know that there is an AHL team in Iowa.

SPEAKER_03:

See, the connections to Iowa, they they keep crapping up for you when you least expect it.

SPEAKER_01:

So that's why I gotta go. I mean, if anything, I'll get some good football, but more importantly, I get to meet you. And you know, it was funny because I was talking to you previously in the interview when I was on your podcast a couple of weeks ago. I had a client say, like, you guys have great chemistry. How many times have you met? I'm like, including today, zero. We've met on Zoom many times, and you know, I they they just mentioned how much chemistry we had together. So really appreciate that. And hopefully we can give a little bit of that indication here too.

SPEAKER_03:

I don't think we ever have a problem with that, Steve, because I think, you know, and and you know, people are like, why do you call him a brother from another? It's like I don't know what to tell you. The chemistry is there, and it's been there since day one because it was kind of like a cold call situation where I can't remember. I I don't know if you reached out to me or I reached out to you to be on one another's podcasts. And after that initial podcast, man, we were up and running, and it was such a great time.

SPEAKER_01:

I think it I think if I remember correctly, is I saw you as the the sweary therapist. I can't remember on on like one of those. Probably Instagram. Yeah, something like that. And then I saw Fuck the Rules podcast. I'm like, hey, you'd like this, and you're like, yeah, of course, I fucking host it. Um I think that's how we met, if I remember correctly.

SPEAKER_03:

I think you're correct. Yeah, that kind of jogs my menopause brain here up a little bit. I think you're correct on that one.

SPEAKER_01:

So I I'm I've I have no qualms about making like silliness of myself, as long as it's like done in like I wish I did it on purpose, it would be funnier, but no, I really did it because I was caring.

SPEAKER_03:

But you know what? You just find a little way for when you can use it next time. It's okay, it's all learning experience. It's sort of like a dress rehearsal, so that you'll be even better when you get to do it on purpose.

SPEAKER_01:

I mean, like to break a wall here, but uh, you're a podcast host too. I was talking to a to one of my go uh guests a long time ago, and I kept on saying, So your book, Johnny Doe, your book Johnny Doe. She's like, actually, that's a clasp. And I'm like, uh crap.

SPEAKER_03:

Well, fuck. All right.

SPEAKER_01:

Exactly. That's like, what are you gonna fucking do, right? So I'm like, hey, editor, fix this. And my editor kind of fixed it, and that was cool. But like, hey, I made a mistake, I made a fool of myself, and I'll ultimately I joked around with the guest. I'm like, I'm more than happy to leave it on there, but it makes me look like a jerk, not you. She's like, oh no, I'll clean it up.

SPEAKER_03:

Myself, I'm the I I am a one-person show here. I'm producer, I'm editor, you know, I'm I'm the host. I figure, well, if I'm gonna make a mistake this large, either we'll we'll go ahead and give it a little space so that I can cut it out later and I'll recorrect myself, or I'll just leave it in if it's a really good conversation of wow, that was a fucking bone-headed move. I stand corrected. Let's move forward. I think it just depends on where you're at in your in your production at that point in the episode.

SPEAKER_01:

Well, I remember you one of your episodes, because I do listen to Susan's Fuck the Rules podcast. It's not like just some line. You guys know me. You come on the you listen to this because you know I'm truthful. And I remember when you're like, this was an excellent interview, but we lost 40 minutes of the interview. Because there was a power failure or something, I can't remember exactly.

SPEAKER_03:

That was with Bhavna Rathouthman Ratatha, and she and I are good friends because she came onto my podcast and we connected really well. And oh my god, it was phenomenal. Fucking power went out. It was, and I can't remember, I think it was because there were glitches in the internet connection because they were digging up pieces of it around my place where I record at. So talking talking with Bobna, I said, What do you want to do with this? She says, Let's just roll forward. I said, Okay, but I was so angry losing those 40 minutes because they were stellar.

SPEAKER_01:

I'm sure no one's listening for us to talk about all these issues that we have with our podcast.

SPEAKER_03:

But they should, because they may want to go into podcasting themselves, and then they'll have to understand that you know, this is the crap you gotta deal with. So, you know, free advice.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, and I mean I I love doing podcasting. My worst podcast is I did an interview face to face with two other partners, and we all had our own mics, except mine wasn't recording, it was muted. So I had to redo the interview based upon what I remembered I said listening to the other two. And if you if you're listening and you want to figure out which one it is, please let me know if you figured it out. I already gave you a couple of tricks, but it was true. You may win a prize, but it it was like, okay, did I say and then I I try to fit it in, and then it like my editor was brilliant. She was able to like cut it and paste it and do it the right way. But yeah, that's my worst story. It's like everything they said was recorded, not me.

SPEAKER_03:

Oh, I admire your your editor then, because that's a lot of work to cut and splice and make it sound tonally the same, you get the same quality of voice and and the background, and just well done to your editor. I would I don't even know. I mean, I listened to your podcast, and now I'm actually watching them on YouTube because it's really interesting with your new studio and the interactions with your guests there, but I don't I don't even know which one that is, Steve, to be honest with you, because my ear would pick it up, I know being an editor myself, and just being very picky about how I want my my episodes to sound like when I'm done with them.

SPEAKER_01:

So well, I know that no one caught it except me. I and when I told one person which one it was, I'll tell you off air because I don't want people, you you guess, send me messages, guess. All right. I'll send you, I'll tell you which one it was, but when you listen to it knowing that, you're like, oh, I can tell the cuts and I can tell the splice and I can tell all that. But if you don't know, it's pretty hard to spot.

SPEAKER_03:

I honestly that's because you probably have a very talented editor. So well done to your editor.

SPEAKER_01:

She was amazing, and I appreciate her. But like right now, we've been shooting the shit, and I want people to know how much I appreciate you. But maybe people who haven't listened to the other episodes you've been on, including my 100th anniversary episode a few years ago. I'm going on five years, Susan, in May.

SPEAKER_03:

I know, isn't that wonderful? I think that's fantastic.

SPEAKER_01:

I'm just shocked I got the five years. I mean, it's just being truthful.

SPEAKER_03:

I'm in season five, so I'm with you on that one. Anybody wants to listen.

SPEAKER_01:

I cheated. I'm on I'm on season 13, but I did the what I call the dancing with the stars season. So the spring was one season, summer was a season, fall was a season. I did that for the first few ones, and now I'm up to once I hit 10, it looks legitimate when you have a double-digit season. And that's how I cheated to epic. Like right now, we're on season 13.

SPEAKER_03:

How can you say that's cheating? That's not cheating. You did the work. You did the work that counts.

SPEAKER_01:

Well, I didn't put it out yet in my newsletter, but I calculated if you want to listen to my podcast end to end for every interview, that's original, because I do have repeats, but just the original ones, it would take you six days and 12 hours to listen to all it would all be original content.

SPEAKER_03:

That's that is a lot of information coming down the pipeline for you. But I, you know, honestly, Steve, I that's why I like your episodes, is that every time I listen, I do learn something different. Or I learn how a different perspective will adjust my perspective of seeing an issue or how someone else responds or how they're living their lived experience in a way that I wouldn't have ever known. So that's a lot of information to to download at one time while they like sit through it for six days. But I mean, you know, actually, if your listeners have not gone back or your watchers have not gone back to see your other podcast, I really recommend them because there is a lot of really great information, not just about mental health, but just on how is it it's hard to be human. And how are these people doing it?

SPEAKER_01:

I I think that the the the reason why I listen to your podcast, why I think my podcast is pretty good, and yes, I'm tooting my own horn here, is that they're not formal interviews. I don't have questions, like I do have like a guide of questions, but I don't like I don't go, Susan, it sounds like we've been working in the same field. Like I again, if you go to YouTube, I'm pretending to hold something while I'm reading it. The point is that it sounds so robotic, and you catch those podcasts, they never last long for the record, but you catch those, and I'd rather have a conversation. That's why I love having you on, because it always ends up being a great conversation, and we're like, oh, we still need two hours, but we need to wrap up here.

SPEAKER_03:

Exactly. So, like when you were on my last episode, and it was just I hated to do it, but I had another interview lined up that we had to cut short at like an hour, hour 15, I think, and we could have gone on for several hours.

SPEAKER_01:

So and as as right as we do right now, because we've just like we've just this is the intro still, and we're like what 12 minutes in. But I think that might be helpful for people to know maybe who you are if they haven't caught you on the other three episodes.

SPEAKER_03:

My name is Susan Rogender. I am a licensed mental health professional. I am licensed in Iowa and Illinois. I'm also a licensed clinical mental health counselor. I'm also a certified clinical trauma professional. I've gone through extra training and made sure that I have the extra hours put into learning and updating my information as a trauma professional. I work specifically with persons in the LGBTQ community. I'm a part of that. I think it's important. A lot of trauma in that. And I also spend a lot of time with my folks in first responders, EMS, military, folks that live and work. I shouldn't say live, but it feels like you live there because of the shift hours that you have to do. The hospitals, ERs, clinics that are like the urgent cares, even regular clinics. And I'm talking nurses, NPs, CNAs, things that happen that you come into contact with people not in their best on their best day. And it's difficult. And then there is the trauma that you live through with people that you're trying to take care of. So those are the kind of people that I work with in my private practice. I also have a second gig as a counselor through a telehealth company than I do part-time because I don't have enough to do, but it's another way to reach people. Those folks tend to be more about mainstream civilians. I don't have anyone in my communities that fit the people that I see through that secondary gig I do. And then, of course, I have my podcast, Fuck the Rules Podcast. Season five just started. Mine is more meandering. It always has a component of mental health to it, but I talk about fuck all everything. I mean, if you have a question about beer and bicycles and cheese, you can listen to the podcast with one of my girls, my one of my daughters, where we talk about that and women's history and women's fashion and how that all rolls in together. And then, you know, I talk to someone that is a person that I truly admire in the work that he's done, and that's Gary. And he did an episode with me talking about being there as a peer support for other people in military and police work for mental health stability and mental health support. So I run the gamut of everything I talk to, to people and as well as to the topics I talk to as well. So that's that's kind of how it is. And then on top of that, too, I do some mentoring for folks that are in mental health that are therapists themselves. They're looking for someone to kind of get guidance and support in the work that they do. They may be fairly new off supervision and they still kind of want that helping hand.

SPEAKER_02:

Right.

SPEAKER_03:

I'm closing out the supervisory type of things that I used to do with persons who were still needing supervision to do the work they're doing before they get permanent licensures. So I'm phasing that portion out of it. I'm gonna stick with the mentoring though for a little bit longer. So that's kind of who I am.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, that's a very like small nut to crack, right? A lot of stuff that you do. And uh, if you listen to Susan's episode, you'll know which one is the favorite child and which one is the first child, and so on and so forth. So a little spoiler alert here if you want to go and get it and go check it out.

SPEAKER_03:

Number one child tends to be my co-host, yes.

SPEAKER_01:

Well, I just want to make sure people know who's the number one child.

SPEAKER_03:

Oh, she'll let you know.

SPEAKER_01:

You've never made me do the interview with her, so hey, come on.

SPEAKER_03:

Well, I guess that's gonna have to be another episode between you and my co-host, number one child and myself, and that'll be a good I will have to do that.

SPEAKER_01:

But you know, you you talked about all the connections you have, obviously, with you know, the LGBTQ community being part of that community really helps, you know, and you talked about being with working with you know the civilians. I think that that's also something that I enjoy. I tell people all the time that I do work with civilians. Why? Because if I only work with first responders, I'd absolutely go insane and I'd be the one in the having to be at the rubber room and what do you call that? The grippy stock vacation is something the grippy stock vacation. So that's why I don't just do that and I like the civilians. But uh, you know, I'm more interested in because of the theme of the the the podcast in general is the first responder world. What's your association with those that that particular crowd in general? I know we we both work crisis, but I'm sure there's more to it.

SPEAKER_03:

Well, beyond I mean before that, you know, I have family that have been in the medical field and also military. And also now police work. And for a long, long time, the work that you were doing in those fields, you weren't expected to respond to it as a human being would. You just suck it up and move on. That's that you signed up for it, you know what you're getting yourself into, move on. Nobody gets a pity party. And some people may find that offensive, what I just said, and it should feel offensive, but that was the way it was done. That's what I remember in the 70s. The fact that I also saw that continuing forward with the work that I did in ER. And my folks who are in military also come into the hospital work, either as paramedics, EMTs, police, even nurses. So the military never really leaves. So it's almost a double dose of you don't ask for help. You just you just get through it, bear with it, and move on to the next thing. All of that, I mean, when I when I graduated, I thought, man, I I want to go out there, I want to help everybody. Okay, now, which is a fucking stupid thing. Because I when I graduated, it was in my late 40s after I got done with masters, and I got my temporary license to go out and go forth and heal. I should have known better. But I don't know. I I I guess for me it was in working with people that weren't in the specific cohorts that I concentrate on now. I could I could work with them, but I didn't feel challenged by it. I didn't feel as though what they were bringing, I could be absolutely the best for them. When I started seeing folks that are in my queer community, and I don't mean to make anyone feel upset or sighted by saying the the words queer community, but that's how I identify, and that's how I call it. You can call anything you want, but that's what I'm meaning is the LGTQ plus community. Those were folks that I knew. I I understood what was going on for all of us. I understood the fight. I came out late in my life as queer and cisgendered female. So I understood a lot of what people were struggling with. And so I started talking to folks that were coming to my office for sessions about that, and I felt challenged in a way that felt I was stretching my muscles. I was utilizing the skills I had learned in my experiences. When I started seeing folks from EMS, whatever that, whatever that career is, everything from officers to correction officers and dispatch to hospital workers and everything else, I really felt these are my people. I want to make sure they understand that there are folks like myself that are out here. There's not many of us, Steve. You and I are pretty rare creatures that we have the backgrounds that we do to become therapists specific for these groups. They don't have to be educated in the sense that I won't say that they don't have to be educated, the therapists don't have to be educated by them because that's that's the thing that they have to fight against a lot of the time is that they come in and the person may not have the experience that you and I do, and they'll they'll not know what police codes are or getting a code off dispatch, or what does it mean to be a dispatch worker, or what is it that a police officer has to do when they show up on scene for a domestic and it turns into gun violence. I mean, these are things that you and I have seen from the side. Side views of rolling up on scene that they've dealt with.

SPEAKER_01:

Right.

SPEAKER_03:

Or the aftermath of where we're having to work with people to help them through the trauma that's going on and try to de-escalate people. And that can make a person feel very hesitant at the very least, or very resistant at the most, that I'm not going to go see a therapist who doesn't fucking get it. Or the worst is I've in unfortunately I've heard from various sources. So tell me your worst story.

SPEAKER_01:

That was exactly where I was going because I knew you were going to say that.

SPEAKER_03:

What the fuck are you doing? I mean, this is about trauma-informed care. And I and that's for everybody, not just for my folks who are in the emergent services and first responder work. Trauma-informed care, the first thing you do is you acknowledge that they have some lived experiences that are incredibly difficult and they're struggling with some of it. What is it you would like to explore? You allow them control because they didn't have control in the sense of whatever it was that affected them. You don't ask them to relive the trauma for you like a like a dancing fucking pony. You know, they're not there for your entertainment, they're there to get help. And I I could be on that soapbox all damn day. I just it really fucking bothers me that and people do it all the time. It doesn't matter what their background is. Oh, what's your worst story? What's the worst thing you saw? Blah blah blah. It's like, you really want to talk about this? You want to talk about a code pink?

SPEAKER_01:

Right.

SPEAKER_03:

I don't think you do.

SPEAKER_01:

And I think that you you you make another excellent point, is that when people ask you about your worst story, which therapists do that constantly, by the way. This is not new news to me. I've I've encouraged some officers. I'm like, look, you don't have to see me, you want to go see a regular offer why see a regular therapist, fair by me, it's fine. I said, but if they do ask you about your worst day, ask them why they became therapists and what trauma caused that. And if they say, Why would you ask me that question? I said, Well, why would you ask me that question?

SPEAKER_03:

Exactly. Fucking to the point, exactly. Yes.

SPEAKER_01:

It's not, it's the dumbest thing in the world. I mean, it it's also why I have a lot of have a couple of police officer friends and even my clients who say, I don't want to go to a civilian barbecue because that's always the first thing. Hey, did you ever see a dead body? Oh yeah, by the way, I want a hot dog. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03:

You know, because it's it's considered entertainment. And I I don't know, Steve. I mean, part of this, and if if anybody's listening to my podcast, they know that I have a real boner for media. It can be really, really great, but a lot of times it's shit. Because people get this information and they see it as entertainment. You have these shows, you have these movies, and it glamorizes a lot of the significant situations that our emergent folks go to or they have to deal with, especially behind the scenes, like with dispatch. Which, by the way, I'm always gonna bring this up. Dispatch is like the redheaded stepchild. Nobody seems to want to talk about how significant their roles are in helping other people do their job in emergent situations, right? And they don't get to complete the calls. They don't, they don't get the benefit of having that closed loop of the enactment of getting services to an on a sudden crisis that gets dropped in a left by phone call. So I want to make sure people understand that they should also be thinking about dispatch when I talk about emergent services.

SPEAKER_01:

And if anybody wants to have a good interview, go back about 10 episodes with Lisa Trousis, who is a dispatch, she's not dead, she's still alive and she's still there. Lisa Trousis was a dispatcher at Milford in Massachusetts, and she talks about all those things. I think that we underestimate the importance of our dispatch. Just like sometimes I feel like when we talk about the ER, you know, people who are also first responders, we then forget about the crisis clinicians that may not have gone through a call, but you hear a lot of like graphic stuff when you're in the in the ER. And I think we forget about them too. But uh, you know, I've I've absolutely I've had this conversation with a whole lot of people. I like we gotta also be mindful that the first responder bubble doesn't become so big that it's too general. Because I've heard people say, Well, what about teachers who get attacked? And that's the first responder. And I'm like, I guess they are, but it's not their primary condition, so to speak. Uh so I've had a lot of conversations about different types of people, but for me, it's I keep my correction people, the ER folks, they give a special shout out to the ICU NICU people. And then the EMS traditional people dispatch fire EM, why am I blanking? Paramedic, EM, EMT. EMT? Yeah. And police fire, trooper, sheriff, eleos in general. Um, and I think that that's where we we gotta be mindful about the the first responder world is so small, just like I I was talking about.

SPEAKER_00:

Please like, subscribe, and follow this podcast on your favorite platform. A glowing review is always helpful. And as a reminder, this podcast is for informational, educational, and entertainment purposes only. If you're struggling with a mental health or substance abuse issue, please reach out to a professional counselor for consultation. If you are in a mental health crisis, find a aid for assistance. This number is available in the United States and Canada.

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Steve Bisson

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