Why Emotional Safety Makes Therapy Work For Police, Fire, And EMS

The hardest stories rarely get told in the places that need them most. Susan Roggendorf and I open the door to how confidentiality truly works for police, fire, EMS, dispatchers, and medics—and why airtight boundaries are the backbone of real therapeutic change. No nods in public that out you, no name drops across departments, and no casual mentions that break trust. HIPAA is the law, but it is also a lived ethic that lets you speak freely without risking your reputation or your career.

We get candid about the therapist–client relationship: professional, paid, and deeply human. It feels friendly at times because safety grows where pain is met with care. We talk about scheduling like chess to avoid back-to-back clients from the same team, navigating community run-ins, and letting clients choose whether to say hello or keep distance. Culture fit matters—dark humor, blunt talk, and straight answers help first responders feel seen. Sometimes the most therapeutic move is five minutes of sports talk to let your nervous system shift gears before you tackle the call you can’t shake.

We dig into vicarious trauma and why “talk to a friend” isn’t enough. Friends can support you; therapists are trained to hear what is unsaid, track patterns over time, and offer clear choices: do you want support or solutions today? That simple question hands back control when so much of the job strips it away. We challenge the quiet shaming of help-seeking and argue for a culture that treats mental health like gear maintenance—nonnegotiable for readiness and longevity.

If you’ve wondered whether a therapist will keep your confidence, or how therapy can actually work for your world, you’ll hear real practices that protect privacy and deepen trust. Walk away with language to set boundaries, insight into how clinicians think, and a clearer path to care that respects the badge and the person behind it.

To reach Susan, please go to https://psychhub.com/us/provider/susan-roggendorf/1316326036

If this conversation helped, follow the show, share it with your crew, and leave a review so more first responders can find it. Your feedback keeps this work moving.

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Transcript

Welcome And Sponsor Shoutout

SPEAKER_00 0:01

Welcome to Resilience Development in Action with Steve B. Holmes. This is the podcast dedicated to first responder mental health, helping police, fire, EMS, dispatchers, and paramedics create better growth environments for themselves and their team. Let's get started.ai.

AI Notes Tool And Offer

Why HIPAA Truly Matters

SPEAKER_03 0:37

You heard me talk about it. I'm gonna keep on talking about it because I love it. I've had about a year and a half, 18 months practice with it, and I still enjoy it. And it saves me time and it saves me energy. Free.ai takes your note, makes a transcri from what you're talking with a client, just press record. And it does either transcript, it does a subjective, and an objective with a letter if needed for your client. And for whoever might get it. So for$99 a month, it saves me so much time that it's worthwhile. And if you do it for a whole year, guess what? You get 10% off. More important. This is what you got. You are my audience. If you do put this and you want to use free.ai, put in the code C50 code area 5.0. You will get$50 off. Get free from writing your notes. Get free from either writing your transcripts. Use that to your advantage. Free.ai. A great service. Go to get free.ai and you will get one of the best services that will save you time and money. And I'll just go. Let's go back to talking about that because for me, one of the things that happens is we want to talk about go to see a therapist and we have peer support and we have citizens. But then we have people who are like, well, wait a minute, I don't want to talk to Susan because Susan talks to Steve, and I don't want Steve to know my stories. And while I think first responders in principle know HIPAA, I don't think they know what HIPAA truly means.

SPEAKER_05 2:23

Well, HIPAA being a federal law where you're not allowed to give out any kind of identifying information about a person and or the reason why they're getting treatment or even if they're in treatment. Period.

SPEAKER_02 2:33

Right.

Public Encounters And Client Privacy

SPEAKER_05 2:34

Period. When people first come in, that is part of the getting to know you part of my sessions. Yeah. Is to say that if you got a referral from one of your buddies in your department, you can talk all the time about, yeah, we were talking about you and everything else, and that my response will be more often than not, sounds like it was an interesting conversation that you had. I am not going to acknowledge I know anybody outside of you in that session. It's that simple. And it's also about carrying that forward outside of my office, right? Or outside of the telehealth situation. That if I see you out in public and your buddies are with you and your buddies may or may not be somebody that also sees me, I'm not going to be introducing myself. I won't even acknowledge you until someone else acknowledges me. And even then, it's just going to be a hi, or it's going to be, you know, a raise of hand or, you know, a nod in your direction and then walk off. And for people, that's comfortable. And for others, they're like, oh no, but you know, we all know you. And it's like, okay, but ethically, as well as legally, I want to make sure there's a very clear demarcation about this is who I am on the outside, this is who I am on site with you in session. And part of this too is understanding that at a certain point you get very comfortable. Hopefully they do, I think we do, that it becomes a feeling of friendliness because it's a it's a relationship you're building. It's a it's a professional relationship. I'm therapist, you're a client, and it's a paid relationship. I'm giving a service to allow you to move forward with whatever it is you're working through.

SPEAKER_02 4:23

Right.

SPEAKER_05 4:25

But because of the intimate topic that we talk about and how that influences what they think about outside of session, I don't think for a lot of a lot of my clients that every once in a while I'll pop up in their thoughts about, oh, I gotta tell her about this, or oh, she's gonna fucking laugh her ass off when I tell her this, or man, I don't want to fucking tell her this, and I know she's gonna know about it, she's gonna sniff it out. Whatever. Right. So it it's being carried along. So it's not like, okay, I went to the doctor and I got my elbow stitched up because you know I slammed into that car door. And you don't think about your doctor after that. You may, when it twinges, you have to go get the stitches up, whatever.

SPEAKER_02 5:06

Right.

The Therapeutic Relationship As Sacred

SPEAKER_05 5:06

Therapy is different because we have that emotional intimacy of this is the place where you get to tell me things you don't tell anybody else, and it stays fucking right here. And that's also the purpose of HIPAA, knowing that you are legally protected. There is there should be nobody talking about their clients outside of session ever. Even as it is with, you know, they understand, you know, with paperwork and everything else, it's the same thing for us as therapists. Even with paperwork, let's say somebody, let's say somebody comes in and they have a partner, and the partner, I get an email from this partner saying, Hey, I think you should know this, blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah. And all I can do is say, thank you for your email. That's fucking it. I don't acknowledge anything, but it also depends on the information I'm getting out of that email. You know, if it just depends on what it is, because this has happened, I won't acknowledge it at all. So most of the time we should be very conscious about how HIPAA is working in all these spheres. So if they're worried that, let's say Bob, who knows you and work in the same department, both of you are coming to me as the for the therapy work, and Bob is worried that I'm gonna say to you at your session, hey Steve, I just saw Bob two hours earlier. Seems like he's doing really well. Fuck no. No. No. What I'm gonna say is, hey Steve, glad you made it in today. What the hell's going on? Right. Fill me in. What did we do last time and where do you want to go from there? It's no, it's not your business about Bob, and Bob has no business knowing about you.

SPEAKER_03 6:48

I mean, I there's so many things I want to respond to because there's a lot of I agree with most of what you're saying, but I I also have some differential for you. But let's start off with for me, I sometimes I do work with people from the same department. So sometimes I'll be doing it in my schedule and go, like, oh, you can come in at two. No, you can't come in at two that day. Oh what? Oh, I something came up, and it's because I don't want the two from the same department back to back because I want to protect them. So you you gotta play that mental game that I don't think people understand that we play.

SPEAKER_05 7:23

It's a it's a game of chess. You have to be very good with your strategy about scheduling, absolutely.

SPEAKER_03 7:28

And I've also had the conversation with my clients that if you ever see someone you recognize here, don't ask me about them because I won't acknowledge anything. Number one, and number two, don't go out in the community and say, hey, I saw you leave Steve's office. You do that, I will never work with you again. And I won't give you a chance and I don't want an explanation, it's over. And our guys get that. I mean, I I don't know about you, but my guys get that right away. Like not talking about it.

SPEAKER_05 7:55

I've never even had to use that with them. I mean, I've never had to use it either. You know, I think it's it's understood when I have that conversation with with session one about this is how serious I take making sure your privacy is protected, that I'm not even going to acknowledge you in a group of your people.

SPEAKER_02 8:14

Right.

SPEAKER_05 8:15

Or even if you're by yourself, I'm not acknowledging you because that's part of keeping your privacy and your business your business. Because listen, even if it wasn't about fucking HIPAA, I wouldn't do it anyway.

SPEAKER_02 8:28

Right.

SPEAKER_05 8:28

Because it's nobody else's business. You know, if you want to share things, that is up to you about your therapy, who you see. That's up to you. I don't care what you want to do with that. I may ask you what is your motivation for doing that, but I don't care. But I'm not bringing it up. That's not my job. My job is to protect everybody's privacy because this is a very protected space. And people can get kind of cutesy or hippie-ish or whatever about a sacred space and everything else. And it's just about this is the one place that people should feel comfortable being able to bear their souls. And I mean fucking lay it out for people because it's so hard to be human and trust people and be able to have that vulnerability. And then when you're dealing with something that is so heavy and so hard and it's driving you nuts, to find the one person that you can connect with, number one, number two, that you trust, and number three, it feels less gross to open yourself up because that's a hard thing to do.

SPEAKER_03 9:33

I think that that's where that's a good point, too. And this is the stuff that I I really think about because it you said of all the medical relationships, this is the most emotionally intimate relationship you'll ever have with any medical provider.

Scheduling Boundaries And Department Dynamics

SPEAKER_05 9:49

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_03 9:50

I tell people that that's both a privilege and a lot of heaviness for us. Because I what sometimes people will, and this is uh I'm like, they're like, oh, you know, you're you're kind of like my friend. I'm like, I'm a paid friend, but yeah, I guess I am a friend, like kind of a prostitute of words of some sort.

SPEAKER_05 10:07

Um you can label it any way you want to.

SPEAKER_03 10:11

But I tell them that, yeah, I guess we are friendly. I'm I but I'm still your medical provider, so to speak. I say much nicer than what it sounds like right now. But the point is that yeah, there's a huge privilege that we have about people opening up to us in such an intimate way. And if you don't treat it like a privilege, you're fucked. Yeah. I think that for me, that's the other part too that I love to do is to treat it like this is sacred.

SPEAKER_05 10:37

But honestly, if you're not treating it as something that you should be grateful that they trust you, why are you in this business? Really? Why why the fuck are you doing this?

SPEAKER_03 10:48

Good point.

Client Choice And Community Interactions

SPEAKER_05 10:49

I have been to too many therapists where we did not connect because I just mm mm, mm-mm. I wasn't I wasn't getting it with them. And I give them something that was really heavy for me in that, and and in the way we discussed it in that, I was getting the feeling from them that it was not being taken as wow, that was really something that you struggled to tell me about, and I appreciate you trusting me. And I never got that from them. So that when I did find a therapist that I did, and the one that I currently have, they do let me know that that sounds really shitty. I am so sorry, Susan. And thank you for letting me know. I know that was really difficult to pull that out and to just talk about it. And yeah, I see a fucking therapist. I should be seeing a therapist, not just because of my own lived experiences, but also because I want to make sure that I show up as the best therapist for my clients. And I can't do that if I'm still trying to process other things that may have activated me from other areas of my life. But in the meantime, I want to make sure I bring that into the counseling session too with my clients to let them know I recognize when there's been a point that you have struggled to say this, and I may have noticed that it's been doing doing this dance with me for maybe a couple sessions before you finally feel you can trust me enough to say it, and then you're holding your breath as you have said it, waiting for what my reaction is going to be. Am I gonna be judged? Am I gonna be criticized? Am I gonna be shamed? And instead, I'm able to tell you truly, thank you. I I appreciate you trusting me to tell me this. And I will tell them, you know, I know it was hard, or I noticed that this seems like you've been building up to this for a while. Where would you like to go with this now? It's about understanding what it is that it took for them to get to that point to trust you. And my fucking God, I d how could you not understand how much trust is given to you and be grateful that they trust you? But you're right, Steve. Understand that that is something that is a heavy responsibility that we've taken on, that we need to be grateful, that we have the ability to do so. But we also have to make sure we keep a check on ourselves that we can keep showing up like that for our clients.

SPEAKER_03 13:05

Well, I think it's also realizing, like to me, that what helps me show up regularly is really that thought of this is a privilege. And for me, that's one of the things that I think a lot of people forget about our jobs. It's a privilege.

SPEAKER_05 13:21

Yeah. You know, nobody has to come see you. No, nobody has to tell you shit.

SPEAKER_03 13:26

And I think that the fact that people are telling you shit, you need to treat it as sacred. You know, I have a therapist too. I'm very well open on my podcast that I have a therapist too. And my podcast, but you know, like what I tell people is that a my therapist could not give two shits about my podcast, but he will care about if I say some certain things in a certain way, and he's known me long enough, and there's an intimacy about he recognizes tone intonation that probably most people miss. And that's why, you know, I'll always be like, I love Joe, but I'll leave him the fuck alone because he's my therapist, he's not my friend. And that's the other part too that we gotta understand is that it is a privilege, but we also like you know, I'm no mind, like I'm a little different than you. If someone sees me in the community, I don't sometimes I'll even say hi first, I don't really care, but I because I see it a little differently. It's not like maybe because I live in a more urbanish area, but it's not like I go, Hi, Susan, my client, and and we'll see each other on Monday. And how's that suicidal thought going?

SPEAKER_04 14:31

So I go on, you wouldn't run in business for very long.

SPEAKER_03 14:35

But that's what I mean. So for me, I always liken it. This is why I kind of justify it is that my buddy Jay, who's been on the podcast many times, he's a cop. And if I see him in the community, I'll go, Hey, how's it doing, Jay? I will wait for him to say hi. I'll say hi to him. So for me, it's almost like if you avoid someone, you're almost kind of saying there's a relationship that's therapeutic there. So for me, it's just going, Hey, how you doing? And it's like even my kids now that they're older, it's a little easier. They get it, but I used to say to them, Oh, I just work with them. They moved on, they didn't think about anything more than that, and usually didn't even ask.

Authority Issues And Client Autonomy

SPEAKER_05 15:10

But usually for me, it's about allowing them the choice. And I don't look like your average person in a smaller urban area. I I have a blue mohawk for God's sakes. I have tattoos and uh, you know, it's it's I stick out like a sore thumb and I'm cool with that, but it can invite more questions of how do you know that person? Because the people that I usually see don't have the extremes that I do because their work won't allow them to go to the extremes that I do with my looks. And even then, if they have tattoos, it has to be covered up or whatever. So I give them the choice. This is this is their power to decide what they want to do, if they want to do anything about it with it all. And they can dismiss it and or they can acknowledge it. It's up to them, and that's why I do that.

SPEAKER_03 16:03

And and I think that that's as long as you have an agreement with your client, that's very important. I had a client who adamantly said, never say hi to me if you see me. And the funny part too is we ended up seeing each other somewhere. And not that I put my head down purposely like this, but I certainly kept my eyes from looking at them. And they went out of the way, like, hey, hi Steve, how are you? Like, next session I go, What's this like? Don't fucking recognize me in the community when you come and get me. I don't get it. So I think that that's why like I agreed that respecting what your clients want, but like I've even had someone say, Why didn't you say hi to me? And I'm like, because I can't. And so what I do now is I just treat it as hi. And if anybody asks, oh, I work with them, most people don't even ask twice. And at this point, I think with 242 episodes and counting, oh, one of my guests I had on my podcast, no one's gonna ask twice. So I think that I have that urban slash suburban area that probably gives me that leeway.

SPEAKER_05 17:10

Yep. I think I think it depends on the context, yes. And what are you comfortable with as a therapist and being able to meet your ethical and legal obligations and responsibilities to your client to make sure they stay safe? And it's the agreement that you have between you and your client.

unknown 17:27

Right.

SPEAKER_05 17:27

I just make it that it's always their choice. I will say hi, I will engage in conversation, I will make it as bland or you know, whatever they want it to be, that's fine within certain parameters. I'm not gonna talk about sessions in public. I'm just fucking not going to do that. If it's if they in if should they say something along the lines, hey, I'll see you on Tuesday at four o'clock for my sessions, it'll be just like, yeah, see you later. That's all I'm gonna say. Moving on. I don't know. I just I just feel it's more important that my clients understand that they're the ones that are in control of this when so much of their lives are not under their control.

SPEAKER_03 18:06

And that's that's a good point.

Shared Trauma And Vicarious Trauma

SPEAKER_05 18:09

There's so much that imagine this. My my having problems with authority. You're not the listen to me. Wow, I know I I know. I have hidden that so well for so many years. I should start letting that out more so people can relate to me. Um but you know, a lot of the folks, I don't know about your people that you've worked with in the ER and that, but we all have authority issues. We all want to do our jobs, we want to do it well, we don't want to be interfered with, we don't want people who've never hit our jobs to tell us how to do our fucking jobs or how well we should be doing our fucking jobs, et cetera, et cetera. So to allow my clients to have their own authority over their own voice and their own actions is really important to me because it's also important to me to have that as well.

SPEAKER_03 18:58

Well, I and I and I think that you talk about problem with authority. Uh, the other people, the other thing I would argue is that therapists and the first responder world have another thing that's very important that's in common, and that's trauma. And I think that what you know, for those of you who are listening, I don't have any trauma. You do, but okay. But I think that what brings us to the helping field, whether it's a therapist or a first responder, is usually because there was a time where you needed help and you didn't get it.

SPEAKER_05 19:28

Oh yeah. Oh yes. So absolutely. So that's why in the or in the in the field as you're working and you've had the trauma and you get shamed for it. Right. I think that is so abhorrent that we we show up in these jobs, and persons who aren't in it may not want those jobs, and that's fine, but then we have to recognize that among our among our among our peers and among other people we're working with and other fields that show up on a person's worst day to help them somehow. We we have to understand we have to lift one another up or at least hold a space for one another when that trauma is happening and not shame each other and not be shamed by others. We're doing jobs most people don't fucking ever want. And honestly, maybe because of the personalities we are and the dark souls we are, we probably shouldn't either. But it it fits us because of a lot of different lived experiences that bring us to that point. But we shouldn't be, we shouldn't be with the corporate mindset or with the the department mindset or the the environment mindset, whatever that is, of you know, grow up hair, just get through it, and then shame people for doing you know, the opposite of that. What the fuck are you doing? There's not enough of us in these jobs to keep doing our jobs, let alone to be chased away from it because you can't have some kind of compassion. And does that make you weak then for showing compassion for someone who can't quote unquote put on the big boy, big girl pants and move on? I just this is a soapbox I could be on for days. It's just it's sickening to me that I've I've seen it in action where peers have belittled a peer because they were suffering greatly from something that's happened that they've never had to deal with before. And it's like, yeah, you've never had that either. Is it because you suffered, therefore you think somebody should also suffer the way you did?

SPEAKER_03 21:38

Right.

SPEAKER_05 21:38

I don't get that mentality.

SPEAKER_03 21:41

I don't get the mentality that someone asks for help. What's wrong with that?

SPEAKER_01 21:45

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 21:46

I don't get that mentality. You know, and I I I also think that the other thing that we have in common with our first responder world as therapists is, and if you don't like these words, guys, I don't really give a shit, vicarious trauma. And I don't need to be I don't even want to say anything. Officer involved shooting. We'll just go with that.

SPEAKER_05 22:09

Okay.

Friends Versus Therapists

SPEAKER_03 22:10

If you hear stories from someone that you work with who's been involved in an officer involved shooting, there's vicarious trauma that occurs through that because what we do is we sit in their shoes. And first responders, when they go to someone's worst call worst day in their lives, they sit there in their shoes too. They have a lot of empathy for the most part. It's to me, first responders should just for vicarious trauma. Again, not PTSI, not PTSD trauma. Then vicarious trauma. We should be able to go see a therapist. And then part of me sometimes is that like you say, people but sometimes people are like, well, that's a supervisor's job. No, sometimes I gotta talk to my therapist about this shit.

SPEAKER_05 22:56

Yeah. Yeah. Because here's the thing that I have to keep reminding people is that the people you may be talking to may be resortive, but they're not the trained professional that's supposed to be able to help guide you through this. Right. That's the difference. I have training, I have experience. I'm the one that is also stepped outside of your work environment so that I can bring a different perspective of observing what's going on and being able to pick up on these other things because I don't have this other stuff that is is like a smoke screen because I'm too busy with this other stuff because your supervisor is your peer or whatever, and how is that going to affect me also in the department?

SPEAKER_03 23:35

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_05 23:37

And that's that's the difference between having a friend and having a therapist.

SPEAKER_03 23:42

Friends can go so far.

SPEAKER_05 23:44

Yeah. Friends are awesome, but they're not trained professionals. You know, I love my friends, and if I were to be sick or I fell down or I cut myself or broke a leg, I could count on them to help me get to a point where I could be turned over to someone who is trained to help me. Emotional hurt, emotional damage is the same thing as a physical trauma.

SPEAKER_03 24:09

And one would argue that, and again, I not I love my friends, don't get me wrong. My friends might go, like, I don't fucking know what to say. And I have great friends that I've had for 39 plus years. And then sometimes you're like, How do you sit there and not like you know, bend? I'm like, Well, I don't know, I just don't. But that's something that for them is a foreign concept and it's very difficult to understand. And so, friend go to my therapist, he may not fully understand or have lived it, but his job is not to sit there and go, I don't know, and not support me or not know what to say. They might say, I don't know what to say, but you know, that sounds rough or whatever. And there is a change of how it's addressed. Your friends won't address everything. They will help you, they will support you, but they will not address everything.

Empathy, Options, And Processing Pain

SPEAKER_05 25:02

But part of our job as a therapist is to sit back and understand what are they talking about really? What's motivating them? What is it that's not being said? What is their body language telling me? What is it that how did this we just talked about this last week and the two times before that we talked about another thing that's connected to that? We're we're doing detective work when we're working with them and piecing together different components that may have been addressed from session to session in order to be able to help them understand what it is that they're feeling and making sure they understand that they can feel any way they want to. But what do we want to do with it? You have a choice. This is you know, you you get to do all kinds of different things. That's our job as the therapist versus a friend. A friend can be there and be empathetic and feel exactly, you know, they can, yeah, fuck them. I'm gonna go through it, but I got a credit card, a full tank of gas. Let's go kick some ass. I mean, that's fine. You know, I may or may not have said that also in session with a with a client or two, and you know, joking around and and being sassy about stuff. But when it comes down to session work, it's about man, that's fucked up for you. What do you want to do with this? Do you want to talk more about this? Do you want to put this on a peg for a while? Do you want do you want to do you wanna just be angry? It's okay. We'll figure it out. But I am sorry, that is shit. Sometimes just hearing somebody say that and saying they understand that yeah, that's pretty fucked up, can be a sense of relief for a lot of persons, at least when my therapist tells me about, you know, telling about something that Susan's dad was messed up. Fuck right. Fuck right. Thank you for sh for letting me know that yeah, it this is as bad as I thought it was.

SPEAKER_03 26:56

And I usually follow up with, all right, what do you want to do with this? You want support? You want some ideas of how to handle it, or you just want to sit there and just process it. And feel it. And then they most people are like, and again, I I I just did my survey not too long ago with my clients, and that's what they ask me like, is there a way to do like break the veil of what you do as a counselor? Honestly, this is what I try to do with the podcast because I sit there, like you know, like when people like, oh, I bet you never heard this story. I've never heard that story. In fact, most of my clients have unique stories, but that doesn't mean I don't know how to treat it. I've never had schizophrenia, but I know how to treat schizophrenia. And that's kind of what the argument I make sometimes. Like, I think that what people tend to forget is that it doesn't cost a dime to be empathetic. And as a therapist, telling someone, hey, do you want support or you want a solution? That's great. And the other part too, which again, a little trick that my clients do know. And I think that if someone from a different department or whatever decides I want to come and see me, they may know someone there. Sometimes I shoot the shit with my clients. And what I mean by that is, you know, I I live in the Boston area. So sports are huge around here. So sometimes we'll shoot the shit for sports for 15 minutes, and sometimes, like, oh, that's not very therapeutic. I'm like, well, you know where I stand, I know where you stand. We shared a moment. I think that's therapy.

SPEAKER_05 28:26

But okay, what do you mean it's not therapeutic though? If somebody throws that at you, how the hell do they know?

SPEAKER_02 28:31

Right.

SPEAKER_05 28:31

Maybe for that client, they have a difficult time switching gears when they first get to your office. They may need that time to transition by shooting the shit with us in order to be able to reach those places that is difficult to carry with them. So fuck you. You don't know me, you don't know my life, you don't know my job. And the reason I got out of being in the ER was you're not the fucking boss of me.

SPEAKER_03 28:57

Well, I agree, first of all. And number two, it's for me, it's like that's where you know, sometimes people are like, hey, what do you think of this sports team or whatever? And I might get a show my like, I hate this team or I love this team, and then we start like laughing or like making fun of each other. And that moment is such a bonding experience for them that it's that's so therapeutic that you can't even wrap like some people can't wrap their head around it.

SPEAKER_05 29:23

It's it's part of therapy in the sense that you are developing further the trust bond you have with your client and that they have with you in that working relationship so they know that they can trust you when the shit gets really heavy to know them.

SPEAKER_02 29:39

Right.

Shooting The Breeze As Therapy

SPEAKER_05 29:39

And that they're they're there and you're there for them for a lot of reasons. And that trust bond allows them to go to deeper places. It's enhancing the emotional intimacy of the bond you have between therapist and client that works towards the therapeutics of allowing them that space to go in dark places they can't tell other people, or they're they have other reasons why they can't be talked about.

SPEAKER_03 30:11

I agree. And I think that that's where that's where you you have that's why I well let maybe finish like we talked. We've already gone about an hour already, as we usually do. But I I go back to the difference between someone who is competent with this culture versus people who are not. Being able to relate in that way is humongous for them. This is very important. You are not relatable, they don't really care, they don't really want to come and talk to you. So you gotta be relatable, and that doesn't mean you always agree, it just means you're relatable, and I think that's important. And the other part too is being able to we swear and all that, and then that's what's important for them too, because they're like, Oh, you're a human being like me. They don't want to see a suit and tie person, in my experience.

SPEAKER_05 31:00

If they wanted to, they wouldn't be coming to my office, right? And my you know, I'm I got my face on my website, they get to know who I am before they even walk in, and I'm very honest about my own anxiety journey and the work that I do, and there it is. They they what you see is what you get, WYSIWYG, right? They want a suit and tie it. Sure shit ain't gonna be me. Nope.

SPEAKER_03 31:25

And by the way, I have more of a of a authority figure issue than you. I haven't worked for anyone in like 11 years, and when the last few times I've worked with people, people have like, you don't let respect the authority. I'm like, no, I don't. I just don't.

SPEAKER_05 31:41

Yeah. Thanks, Captain Fucking Obvious. Right.

SPEAKER_03 31:44

If you're fucking wrong, I don't care what your fucking role is, I'm gonna tell you you're wrong. But anyway. So then how like talking about you know, people can see your face on your website. How about you tell me your website, where we can find you, and a little bit about fuck the rules.

SPEAKER_05 31:59

Well, you can go to counseling services.com. That's where my private practice information is at. You can also look up fuck the rules podcast.com. That's where you can find my podcast. I'm on all streaming platforms that have the ability to stream podcasts. I am not on YouTube like my fancy friend Steve here because I don't have the time or the energy to put the videos up along with everything else that goes along with the podcast. Maybe next year, maybe not. I keep saying that every year, so who the fuck knows? But I tend to drop that once every two weeks or so with a new episode. It's free. And then after I think two weeks, then it gets locked off for people who have a premium membership that can listen to back episodes. So but there are still some that I have kept unlocked that have to do with mental health about whether it's a specific type of treatment or it's about mental health for those in helping professions. So those are still available and free too.

SPEAKER_03 32:54

And um I I encourage people to go listen to it and get the premium stuff. It's really good.

Cultural Competence With First Responders

SPEAKER_05 32:59

It's three bucks a month. It's I'm not charging you a shit ton of money. It's like, you know, it's like somebody's like, you should do it on Patreon. I'm like, yeah, but you know, that's like five bucks. You know, three bucks, that's not even a goddamn cup of coffee anymore. It's just, you know, and the three bucks that you know, you and I have talked about it for that's not paying for much of anything. Well, this isn't it, you won't even cover hosting on your website. So, but for me, it kind of helps offset a few of the smaller things that I get to do because of that.

SPEAKER_03 33:24

So well, I'm gonna definitely see. I haven't done that, I haven't had the patience to do that. Uh, so that we have that differently. The YouTube thing I'm gonna give you really the the quick and dirty of that. You should be on YouTube for the simple fact that we've done your interviews on you on Zoom. And if you go for the first, oh, at least 30 episodes, if not more, there's no production value in it, it's just the raw footage and video, and it's just thrown on YouTube. And I still get hits, and I have people who listen. And so, just for the record, you don't need to be very polished.

SPEAKER_05 33:57

All you have to do is go to YouTube and go download you're gonna drag this out in an episode, Jesus. Steve, fine.

SPEAKER_03 34:07

I've guys look, it's called peer pressure.

SPEAKER_04 34:09

Um yeah, that work and work so well for me, which is why I have blue hair in the mainstream environment that I live in.

SPEAKER_03 34:18

I know, and I mean, like, I know how you do well with peer so, but you know, here's the thing. I let's finish on this.

SPEAKER_05 34:25

You're gonna reverse psychology me on this, aren't you? You're gonna try to.

SPEAKER_03 34:28

I won't, because let's say, for example, I can't think of a podcast, but just think of a podcast that you listen to. If they try to pressure me in doing what they do, I'm like, that's really great. What do you do? I ain't fucking doing that. That's not me. If you pressured me into doing something, and now I'm thinking about the whole bonus or uh paid feature of it, I respect you, so that peer pressure means something to me.

SPEAKER_05 34:57

You're working on me, you're working on me. And you know, and Steve, I love you like a brother, and but I'm just fuck you.

SPEAKER_03 35:06

No, that's the ultimate mark of respect. I tell people if you tell me to go fuck myself, that means you love me. I'm good. It's what people don't say.

SPEAKER_05 35:13

Do you still do you still have your counterboard where you would have how many people have told you to fuck off?

SPEAKER_03 35:18

Hell the fuck, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 35:20

Excellent.

SPEAKER_03 35:21

January, like I know we're recording, this will be out in February. We're like nine days in in January. I already have three. Thank you very much. Thank you, BJ. Well, Susan, always great to have you on. Let's make it a regular thing for us to be on together.

SPEAKER_05 35:40

Absolutely. And I just I love coming here and just chatting with you and getting more information out to people who are listening. And first responders, people in helping professions, if you're worried about buddies that are going to the therapist that you want to go see, that may say something about how they trust that person to listen to them. That's my last word on that. So think about it at the very least.

Authenticity Over Formality

SPEAKER_03 36:05

I'd like I'm gonna finish on that because I think that's great advice. If you've got someone you like who's seeing someone, maybe that person is trustworthy. That's a great way to put it and finish this episode. So thank you again. We'll go why we'll go listen to your podcast, we'll pay for it. And then when you go on YouTube, I will be your first subscriber, so we'll be good. But Susan, I thank you so much for the time.

SPEAKER_05 36:29

Steve, I love you, kid. Thank you so much for having me on here. I'm always happy to come on and chat with you and get information out. And of course, you're gonna be back on my episodes.

SPEAKER_03 36:37

So we'll be seeing each other. If I gotta meet your favorite child, uh this completes episode 242. I hope you guys enjoyed it. And see me on the other side on episode 243. And thank you for your time, guys.

SPEAKER_00 36:53

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