E.243 Leading With Care: Real Support For First Responders Part 2

Stigma keeps too many first responders silent, and silence can cost careers, health, and lives. We sit down with a former deputy sheriff and burnout expert AK Dozanti  to map clear, practical ways leaders and peers can replace fear with trust—without waiting for a crisis to force the issue. From the first honest check-in to a policy that actually protects time for care, we unpack what real support looks like on and off shift.

We talk about the gap between leadership and the line, and how to close it with routine, human conversations—quarterly coffee, or even better, side-by-side cruiser rides that make it easier to open up. You’ll hear why “the opposite of depression is expression,” how to speak up safely using unions and peer support, and why building a pre-crisis network is the strongest predictor of bouncing back after critical incidents. We also get candid about therapy: EAPs help, but cultural awareness matters. When clinicians understand shift work, critical incidents, and the code of the job, responders stop giving “safe” answers and start telling the truth.

We spotlight two resources built for the field. Beat the Burnout reverse-engineers burnout with stepwise guidance and constant actions you can use even when your brain is crispy. Responder Reset delivers 99 “read-this-when” tactics for moments like wired-but-tired or post-incident spikes—grounding, bilateral stimulation, breathing, and proprioceptive tools explained in plain language with tactical trade-offs. Leaders will learn why embedded clinicians accelerate trust, how annual wellness visits normalize care before it’s urgent, and how to frame mental health in practical, tactical terms that earn buy-in.

If you value practical tools over platitudes, this conversation is for you. Listen, share it with your shift, and tell us: what one change would make your department safer to speak up? Subscribe for more candid, field-tested strategies, and leave a review to help other first responders find this show.

Visit her website at: www.akdozanti.com

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Chapters

• 0:00 Sponsor And Offer: Free.ai
• 2:00 Bridging The Leadership–Line Gap
• 4:30 Trust, Stigma, And Speaking Up
• 8:30 Human-Centered Policies And Check-Ins
• 11:30 Side-By-Side Conversations That Work
• 15:30 Unions, Peer Support, And Safe Paths
• 19:00 Expression Beats Suppression
• 23:00 Cultural Awareness In Therapy
• 27:30 Wellness Visits And Embedded Clinicians
• 32:00 Books: Beat The Burnout

Transcript

Sponsor And Offer: Free.ai

SPEAKER_02 0:01

Welcome to Resilience Development in Action with Steve Bisson. This is the podcast dedicated to first responder mental health, helping police, fire, EMS, dispatchers, and paramedics create better growth environments for themselves and their teams. Let's get started.ai.

Bridging The Leadership–Line Gap

SPEAKER_00 0:37

You heard me talk about it. I'm gonna keep on talking about it because I love it. I've had about a year and a half, 18 months practice with it, and I still enjoy it. And it saves me time and it saves me energy. Free.ai takes your note, makes a trans what you're talking with a client, just press record, and it does either transcript, it does a subjective, and an objective with a letter if needed for your client and for whoever might need it. So for$99 a month, it saves me so much time that it's worthwhile. And if you do it for a whole year, guess what? You get 10% off. More importantly, this is what you got to offer, because you are my audience that listens to Resilience Development in Action. If you do listen to this and you want to use free.ai, put in the code Steve50 in the promo code area, Steve50, and you will get$50 off in addition to everything we just talked about. Get freed from writing your notes, get freed from even writing your transcripts, use that to your advantage. Free.ai, a great service. Go to getfree.ai and you will get one of the best services that will save you time and money. And I highly encourage you to do so. Well, aka the Zante or Desante with a Z. How are you? I know we're doing second part here. I know you introduced yourself already, but this has been a great conversation. I really enjoyed it. And I like to shift gears because you talked about something earlier that you were a deputy sheriff. And I've always wondered about a couple of things because I work with a lot of people who say leadership doesn't listen, leadership doesn't get it, leadership blankety blank. I always wonder what leadership can do differently, not only to support their staff for XYZ reasons, but also around mental health. Because some people fear telling their chief deputy, sheriff, name it, that they have had some of those issues because they're afraid their gun is going to be taken away and stuff like that. So I would love to hear more about what do you think leadership can do differently in order to support their staff, particularly when that in the mental health part.

Trust, Stigma, And Speaking Up

SPEAKER_03 2:52

I think it has to be on both ends. And hear me out. There is there's a rift between leadership and line level guys or even middle management. And a lot of times we just assume that they're not going to get it. So we don't even bother. We don't bring it up. When I and I'll be honest, I left full-time law enforcement a little over 10 years ago now. And when I left, it was because I had PTSD, suicidal ideation, severe depression, adrenal fatigue, all of these things. What I told them was that I was leaving to go further my education, which I did, but I did not disclose the real underlying undercurrent of why I was leaving because A, I was leaving and I assumed they wouldn't care. And B, I didn't want them to think that I was weak because that stigma was very strong and it still lingers in the in the first responder world today. But I think that we have to stop assuming that they're not gonna get it. Now, I'm not saying if if you've experienced, if you've seen examples of, you know, somebody speaking up and then that the that set of admin discards them, you know, take that as evidence, take that, take that as data and information. But we also have to be willing to speak up if something is going on. Now, leadership, my biggest thing is you need to not just put things into policy, but of course put things into policy. However, make sure that your leadership has good education around mental health issues, around my ex my area of expertise is burnout. So being able to recognize things and signs of burnout because those are things that we have normalized that we have the ability to mitigate, but if we don't, they will become bigger issues. But actually supporting your people in a real way, actually connecting with them, actually going beyond just the pizza party and the the written letter at a boy and sitting down and having a conversation. You know, if if you're middle management, make it a point that if you have six guys on your shift, that once every quarter you sit down with each one of them and have a cup of coffee and say you listen to them about what's going on in their life. Listen to them about what feedback they might have about the job, right? Like there might be things that they're holding back if they don't feel like they can come to you. And if they feel like they can come to you with work stuff and they feel like they can come to you with home stuff, and it's not necessarily a counseling session, but just like, man, you know, my mom's in the hospital and the wife can't get off of work and I gotta, I gotta take off to watch the kids or something like that. If they feel comfortable enough to say that to you, and you're able to say, why don't you take the shift and go be with your family? That's gonna mean so much more to them than just some policy that they have to sign or some extra snacks at the end of their shift or whatever the case is. So what I'm getting at is you really have to just genuinely connect with people and then have policies in place to fall back on so that when things do happen, the policies hold everything up and you can just be a human and connect in that moment.

SPEAKER_00 6:44

A few things you said that really struck me is connection. And I think that that's the key to anything that we do as human beings, never mind in the first responder world. There's a sergeant that I work with around here that you say quarterly, sit down and have a cup of coffee. He found it a lot more helpful to sit next to them for in the cruiser once every quarter.

SPEAKER_01 7:05

Sure.

Human-Centered Policies And Check-Ins

SPEAKER_00 7:06

And especially with men, side to side, they'll talk a whole lot more and then face-to-face. Women, they can do face-to-face a lot easier. But men in particular, they will talk a whole lot more with a shoulder-to-shoulder conversation than they will with a face-to-face conversation. And he does this quarterly with his staff, and I really truly appreciate that because the younger officers, as you know, we have a lot of young, young officers coming into the field right now, and they really feel appreciated and supported, and that changes a lot. And I know it's middle management to be a sergeant, but at the same time, that's where you're going to start believing in administration because if your middle management is supportive, you will think that the captain and the lieutenant and the deputy and uh everything else will be supportive too. I don't know all about the ranks everywhere and every because everyone has slightly different things, but that is absolutely true. The other part that you mentioned is that speaking up. It's tricky though, because if you speak up, you might expose yourself. And some people are not willing to do that. So what I'm playing devil's advocate here. So I'm an officer, I want to speak up because I'm not an officer, but we're playing along here. An officer, I see someone struggling, they go speak up, but they're told they're weak, they're told they're not strong enough, they can't handle the job, give me your gun or whatever, like just throwing a bunch of ideas out there. How do I speak up as a fellow officer if leadership says that to them?

SPEAKER_03 8:31

Oh, if you're outside, you're not the person that's struggling, you're wanting to speak.

SPEAKER_00 8:36

My experience is that people who str who struggle and speak up are the ones who kind of like the the first one to speak up if they don't have someone backing them up or supporting them, not from an administration, but a colleague or someone who's middle management, as you said, they tend to be shunned or they tend to be told, like, well, if you can't handle the job, don't do the job. So, how do we speak up without the fear of retribution or what have you?

SPEAKER_03 9:02

This is gonna sound like sidestepping, but contact your union your union rep and make sure that there's somebody that you can trust. Now, if that's not the case, find somebody that you can trust in the department. Uh, if there's nobody in the department that you can trust, you may not be in the right department. I'm just I'm just being honest. But if there's somebody that you can trust, if there's a union rep that you can trust, reach out to them. If there's a peer support person around that you feel like you can trust, have a conversation. You don't need to disclose everything. You don't need to say, you can all all it has to be is like, hey, I've been experiencing a lot of stress. Stress is very human. Stress is not a diagnosis, stress is not going to make anybody take your gun away from you. Okay. So, hey, I've been under a lot of stress, been under a lot of pressure, work and home. I, you know, I need maybe need to, you know, have a game plan. What is your goal in bringing it up? Do you need time off? Do you need to, you know, go see somebody, and that's going to require you to have to take appointments during your shift at some point. Figure out kind of like what your end goal is. If you don't know what your end goal is, that's okay too. But have a person, at least one person that you can trust in the department and actually cultivate that relationship before if you're not in a place right now where you're struggling, cultivate that relationship before you ever even get to that point. Because the number one indicator of how well you're going to bounce back from a critical incident is the support system you have before that incident ever even happens.

SPEAKER_01 10:51

Right.

SPEAKER_03 10:52

So making sure that you're building connections preemptively so that if something does happen, you you have that backing. But then if it comes down to it and and you need time off or you just need some extra assistance in whatever way that that looks, then have that conversation with a union rep present just to cover your ass and or a peer support person or you know, have that meeting and see how it goes. And I would go up the chain. I wouldn't go straight to straight to the big guy or anything, but if that makes sense.

SPEAKER_00 11:26

Oh, yeah, chain of command goes a long way. I agree.

SPEAKER_03 11:30

And really just talking to a peer, even if you don't you're not willing to go to your sergeant or lieutenant or whoever, just expressing saying things out loud can be very powerful if you've been holding them in for a long time, because the opposite of depression is expression. And if you're not actively expressing, you're actively suppressing. And so men in particular have a really hard time expressing things that they're dealing with internally or things that they're thinking about internally. And so if you're able to just turn that pressure valve a little bit, you might find that you don't even need to go talk to a sergeant. You might find that just that one little conversation with somebody that you trust is enough to let you take a breath of fresh air. And then you know they've got your back. And then, you know, that can can begin to help, right? It's not gonna change everything, but it can it can certainly help.

SPEAKER_00 12:34

I think I gotta steal that one from you. The opposite of depression is expression. I'm gonna steal that one from you. That's a great way to do that. By all means, absolutely, it's absolutely true, by the way. So I really appreciate that. I I think that what you also said is true, and one of the things that I encourage some of my guys to do is go through peer support because peer support is exactly that. And if you have, you know, an amazing peer support team, they'll understand what you know that you need to talk to someone and anything. And it sometimes that could be a colleague, that could be, you know, sometimes peer support has people who are more in the higher level administration world, you know, but that still doesn't mean they can't support you and help you. And I really push people to use peer support because even though I have a lot of knowledge because of my work and all that, I truly don't know what it is to do your job. And I will never pretend I do. And having a peer support person who knows and may know what you're going through because of their own shit or what have you is so important. I really encourage peer support use.

SPEAKER_03 13:38

Yeah. And I think it's important to remember that there are limitations. There, you know, peer support is trained, but they are also not clinicians most of the time. It's on a rare occasion you get that unicorn. But I think that understanding that they're there and and they can be extremely helpful. And then being able to recognize, though, if and when you need that next level of care and need to go talk to a licensed mental health clinician who is trained to be working with first responders and trauma.

SPEAKER_00 14:17

Yeah, we I have a colleague of mine who is a therapist, happens to be a police officer, also. And he said that, you know, culturally competent is getting thrown around way too easily. And so he we're trying to find a word we've come up with culturally aware as a way, because I think that is it's also important to find a therapist that is culturally aware or knowledgeable of what happens in that world. It doesn't mean they've been through it, just means they know about it. And while your EAP is an amazing resource, and I really support a use of an employee assistance program, sometimes they don't have that culturally aware cultural awareness of what they're going through. And when you feel that, and I'm you correct me if I'm wrong, I'm not a first responder, but this is what I've been told. Oh man, they won't be able to handle it. Let me just fucking like say yes to everything and say I'm safe and just move on.

Unions, Peer Support, And Safe Paths

SPEAKER_03 15:10

Basically, yeah. They're they're gonna find a way to skirt around the system. And sometimes it's not necessarily like they won't be able to handle it, but I'm not gonna even waste my time. I'm not going to waste my energy. This and they almost hold on to their trauma and their experiences as if you're not privileged enough because you've not lived it. You don't get to hear my deepest, darkest experiences. And I know that sounds kind of strange, but I also know that you know exactly what I'm talking about because it's these things that happen are, you know, trauma runs really deep in our system. It's not in our brain, it's in our body. And when that when we carry it for that long, it it's almost like it becomes this sacred thing. And we don't want to share it with just anybody. It's like I'm not going to cast pearls at swine kind of thing. And I'm not talking, I'm not, I'm not saying the therapists are swine, but I'm saying like it's called pigs, but anyway.

unknown 16:23

Right.

SPEAKER_03 16:24

But we we value, we we put this high regard on this thing that changed us. And it's not necessarily a, you know, that we put this high value on it, but it's it's just so personal that we we hold tight to it, and we're not gonna let just anybody hear about it and experience it.

SPEAKER_00 16:49

So yeah, I think it's a badge, a badge of honor, I would come up with. And one of the things that I've I can't remember where I read this, but that I stole this from someone else too, is that first responders struggle with a particular diagnosis that's just for them, and it's called chronic uniqueness. You can't understand where we come from. And I think that that's what you were trying to say. Correct me if I'm wrong, but this chronic uniqueness, and like when people say these things that are unique and you wouldn't understand, I'm like, oh, so you're special just like everyone else.

SPEAKER_03 17:23

Right. Well, and it because that trauma is a it's so deeply personal. And it and it is the trauma that we experience as human beings, every traumatic experience is unique, but we there's this already ingrained us versus them in the culture that we just kind of like take that to another level. And when you start understanding trauma and how it shows up in the brain and the body and the nervous system, you start to realize that it's just human biology, you're just a human, and that can be really hard for some people to accept.

SPEAKER_00 18:06

Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, wait. First responders are humans? I thought they were like robots of some sort. That's why I watch Robocop.

SPEAKER_03 18:13

It's a little known secret.

unknown 18:15

Okay.

Expression Beats Suppression

SPEAKER_00 18:16

Well, I won't tell anyone, no one listens anyway. So we're I and I do believe in schisms and scissors, depending on where you come from and similar processes. But one of the things that I tell people is that having more resources than less is important. So having a peer support, having Sism is very helpful. One of the other things, too, is that I strongly encourage anyone who listens to this and whoever knows me to do a wellness visit with a specialized, culturally aware first first responder therapist because those wellness visits once a year can be so valuable. That doesn't mean you're going through stuff. Maybe you're going through nothing. And it's just like, hey, how are you doing? Because wellness is not like to me, we it's crazy that you know, for I go always with the example of firefighters. Firefighters have cancer screenings, but they don't send, you know, PCP doctor to do cancer screening. It's someone who specialized in the cancer treatment or cancer like they're looking for. Well, for your checkout from the neck up, you want someone who specialized with first responders and do mental health. I think that's not that much different. And what when wellness visits, I always feel like anyone can do them. By the way, I encourage leadership to do that. I have a few chiefs that actually come and see me too. But the wellness visit has two-prong effect. It'll and the checkout from the neck up is helpful once a year. And then you can create a relationship with a therapist and say, Oh shit, this person makes sense, or this person was willing to listen to me, or they made like I can reach out to them as needed. So if something happens during the course of that year, or you're like, I don't know what to do with this, let me call them and it's HIPAA compliant, it's protected, and you can start doing therapy with them. I think that's another great way to create another resource for everyone to do that wellness visit yearly.

SPEAKER_03 20:06

Yeah, I agree. And I think one of the best things a department can do, and and I don't want to say if they have the resources, I want to say if they're willing to allocate the resources to it, is having a department embedded mental health clinician or somebody that is dedicated to, you know, because you could have somebody that's, you know, maybe works with three or four small departments or something like that. But somebody who's dedicated to their department, because you get the opportunity then to actually build that relationship and the back to the connection, because it takes a while to earn trust in general, as human beings, let alone, you know, as first responders. And so having somebody that is going to be well received and and maybe a backup person, because not every person and therapist are going to drive. Like you're you're just, and that's another thing, too, is what I hear a lot is yeah, well, I went to therapy once and and it was shit, and so I'm never gonna do that again. And I'm like, well, maybe you just had the wrong person. Like it happens. I've I've gone through four or five therapists in my life, and and it wasn't for you know, I'm not I've not shopping, but you know, there were certain ones that served me great for the season that I was in, and then it fizzled out, and I there wasn't a whole lot more growth happening, or there were certain ones that I saw three or four times and I was like, this is not gonna work, and that's okay. But again, we don't want to expose our badge of honor, and you know, not too many people are privileged enough to experience that with us, but I think that. That having an embedded or dedicated mental health clinician is an incredibly beneficial thing if departments are willing to allocate the resources to it.

Cultural Awareness In Therapy

SPEAKER_00 22:13

So many other things I want to mention about that, but I'm going to go quickly because I really, really, really want to talk about time served in your book. But one of the things I would say is I'm not everyone's cup of tea. While I have the cultural awareness, not everyone likes me. Nothing wrong with that. I know a lot of culturally aware people. And some people don't want to talk to a dude, they want to talk to a woman. Again, I know women who do who are first responder trained in mental health clinicians. I'll send it to you. But ultimately, there's two things therapists in this world have to understand. If you're a first responder competent person, I always go after the fourth session. Hey, is this still working for you? If it's not working for you, that's cool. I'll find you someone who probably would be a better fit. I think it's working, but I want to hear your point of view. There's a lot of respect that you get from being open and like, hey, I'm not this may not be working and that's cool. Or hey, you know what? I got I got the shit I needed to get off my back. I'm good. I don't need this, and maybe we can go every quarter. Again, having that conversation openly makes it so much better because again, most of the time people are like, What, you think I'm done? No, I didn't say that. I just said that I want to make sure, you know, and that chronic uniqueness, as we talked earlier, becomes a little less unique when you're able to trust a person and talk about it. So when I mention that and being okay with and the clinician thing, I was a uh the jail diversion program in Framingham when it started. I was one of the first clinicians there. And we were right along. Now it's called co-response model. CITs are similar, they're different, but they're similar. And it's good to have those clinicians because what I found is when I first started, they would I wasn't really liked, and that's fine because I was part of the hug a thug program, and that's okay. I'm not upset about that. But eventually some guys would be, hey Steve, you're coming with me today. All right. And then they would talk about their own stressors because hey, you're met the and just because I was embedded and I had, oh, this guy understands us, I was there, they gave me a lot more from those conversations, and that they probably would ever talk to a therapist. So having that one embedded person is really important. I'll play devil's advocate. I've heard someone say to me, Well, because I know them, I don't want them to talk about me in the station. And I go, Well, what did what do they have to win by doing so? But anyway, you know, let's go, but let's go to your books. I want to hear about your books. I know that you do presentations, and that's called Time Served, but I know you also have two books, Beat the Burnout and uh Responder Reset. Which one do you want to talk about first? Which one is your baby? Which one is your latest endeavor? Tell me more about that.

Wellness Visits And Embedded Clinicians

SPEAKER_03 24:55

Yeah, so I do a lot of different presentations. Time served was a cool, unique one that I did for corrections officers and probation officers. And that was that was really fun to do. But um, my first book was Beat the Burnout, and that was published earlier last year, and it really is not a memoir. It is, I did a ton of research because I'm a big nerd. And so I have some of my own experiences in there just to kind of weave it in as a conduit for the lessons. But I basically reverse engineer burnout in in the book, in the 12 chapters. And I take you from the very basics and the foundations. If you are already crispy, I take into account that you may not have a whole lot of brain capacity for complex thought and critical thinking. So the first third of it is written very in very simple terms to get you through to where, you know, you have actionable steps. Every three pages, there's a new action that you can take, a new thing that you can implement. And then as it goes, it it develops into more nuance and more complexity and and more deeper thought. So beat the burnout prevention and recovery solutions for frontline burnout. And then later last year, so just a couple months ago, I dropped responder reset 99 real-time tactics for frontline regulation. And that is, I love both books equally. And I'm just finishing up the audible version of Beat the Burnout, but Responder Reset is so fun and so unique. And I love the way that it's formatted. So it has a really robust table of contents and it's a read this win style book. So you read the first 10 pages to understand how to use it. And then when you need it, because you're gonna keep it in your duty bag, in your locker, in your glove box, on the table at the fire department, what it's it's gonna be there when you need it, hopefully. And you're going to pull it up or pull up the table of contents and look at the 99 different options for whatever you're experiencing. So read this when you're wired but tired. Read this when you want to connect to your spouse, but don't know how or you can't. Read this when you just had a critical incident. So then each page is a or each entry is a one-page entry. And it gives you what you might be inclined to do, what your normal, what you're the burnout bait, right? So don't take the bait. It gives you a tactical trait, a tactical trade-off, so something else to do instead. And a lot of them are based on EMDR style movements, proprioceptive input, grounding, breathing, physical things to put into action, a little blurp on why this works, and then a little mental note to lock it in. And I I've never seen anything, any other book like that. And so it just like it just makes me giddy to talk about it. But those are both of my books, they complement each other really well. So the one is more of like the deep wisdom, Mr. Miyagi foundation, and then the other one is is your workhorse. That's your your backup when you need it.

SPEAKER_00 28:17

Well, I like that you understand the language because when you mention tactical, people will listen to that methods or tricks or mental health support. They don't like that shit. So definitely like I like tactical. I think that's one of those things that people really get. And you know, having the the EMDR idea of like bilateral tapping is so important. I know it helps calm people down. And one of the things that I talk about with people is somatic stuff, and I'm sure that there's stuff in that the book that you do.

SPEAKER_03 28:49

All yeah, all kinds of it, lots of different unique combinations of things with you know, you're not doing self-administered EMDR. That's not what it is, but it's it's some bilateral stimulation.

SPEAKER_00 29:01

That's why I use those words.

SPEAKER_03 29:04

Yes, yes, and it different, lots of different tactics and and options and modalities. So there's something in there for everybody.

SPEAKER_00 29:15

But I and I think that that's you know why. And there's a book called Tapping. If you ever want to read that, that tells you a lot about the tapping. It is not EMDR set, but it talks about that. And there's also other things that really work about stimulation of your body, whether it's tapping your chin, pulling on your ears. There's a lot of little things that you can do that will calm you down and like at least lessen the anxiety. So I'm happy that someone has written tactical ways to talk about it, not just therapeutic ways. So thank you for that.

SPEAKER_03 29:45

Well, yes. And I I am a master practitioner in EFT. So the emotional freedom technique. So I I have actually have the knowledge in the background. I'm not just throwing random stuff out there. Like there's there's a lot of certifications and study behind it, and yeah.

SPEAKER_00 30:01

Well, I'm I'm gonna joke around with you a little bit here. You had me at your nerd. But yeah, no, I get what you're saying, and it's it it really is. I'm a nerd at heart, also, but I also talk the way I talk because I think that being nerdy and you don't have to intellectualize everything.

SPEAKER_03 30:20

Yes, yeah. I have I I have to work a little bit extra hard. That that's like a double, I don't know. I have to work harder to take all of my mega nerd status and bring it into bring it to people in a way that it makes sense for them. And and I don't mean that, I'm not saying I'm dumbing things down, but I'm saying to make it consumable, to make it digestible, to make it applicable to how they can use the information. And I've been pretty good at kind of synthesizing things and then and then putting it in a frame where people are like, wow, you make it make sense. And I'm like, okay, that's the goal. Like, if I can do that, then great.

SPEAKER_00 31:09

Well, no, but meeting them where they're at is the word I use, you know, and I'm not dumbing it down, but me talking about cognitive distortion versus fucked up thought processes, I think the second one is a lot more palpable for my role, my people than talking about cognitive distortion is gonna be like, what the fuck? So I always say it's not dumbing it down, it's meeting your crowd where they're at. When I'm doing presentations with mental health therapists, there's a whole different language that I use. And I'll give you my trick also of being able to meet people where they're at. This is my second language, my first language is French, so I have to dumb down everything in my brain in order to speak in English, so it works out perfectly for me.

SPEAKER_03 31:48

Wow, that's so interesting.

Books: Beat The Burnout

SPEAKER_00 31:50

Make me say a TH word, you'll see what you'll you'll definitely see that I'm a French Canadian. Okay, but don't worry, my girlfriend makes fun of me all the time. Anyway, but how about telling us how we can get those books? How can we reach you? And if you're doing present, if we can get you for presentations and stuff, how do we get all that?

SPEAKER_03 32:11

Sure. Well, the books are most easily accessible on Amazon, but everything is linked up on akdesani.com. That is the hub. If you want to find me on socials, you can just if you could just search ak design. But if you go to the website, there all the socials are linked up there. Information on speaking and the books and coaching and all of that stuff is that is the central hub.

SPEAKER_00 32:36

Well, I hope people go do do that. I will put in the show notes and it'll be linked and people can click on it. This has been exceptionally fun. I want to make sure I say that because I agree. I think that me and you talk the same language in some ways. And that's what I think is important. Just by curiosity, when is it? Do you know when the Audible is going to be out?

SPEAKER_03 32:58

I've got I think three chapters left. I was so close to being done, and then the holidays hit, and my whole family got sick, and myself included. So hopefully, right now we're in the first week of January. Hopefully, definitely by the end of the month.

SPEAKER_00 33:14

All right. So this will come out in February. So hopefully people can go get your audible because again, sorry, my first responder world. I know you guys sitting there and reading a book isn't your thing, but being able to listen to it on Audible, that's your thing. So go get her book. I'm looking forward to reading it myself. Again, I tell my audience always the truth. I haven't read it. And if I did, I would tell you, but I didn't. But I'm looking forward to reading it. And I will read it. I think Audible, I'll maybe get that too, but I'd rather read it. But I want to thank you for your time. I want to make sure you know also, if you ever want to come back, let me know. Because I really enjoyed our conversation. I think I have more questions to ask. This was a blank sheet when we started. So now there's all these things that I gotta come back to. But aka the Santi the Zante.

SPEAKER_03 34:06

Thank you. I appreciate you.

SPEAKER_00 34:08

And for those of you still listening, look forward to seeing you in the next episode.

SPEAKER_02 34:14

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