Making Wellness Practical For Police Fire And EMS

The job trains you to scan for danger, move fast, and stay ready, but nobody hands you a clean off-switch when you walk back through your front door. We sit down with Dr Stephanie Conn, a former dispatcher and police officer turned first responder psychologist, to get real about what actually helps police, fire, EMS, dispatch, and corrections stay steady over the long haul.

We talk about resilience as a practice, not a personality trait. That means sleep discipline, boundaries, and recovery routines that fit real schedules, plus “performance” framing that makes wellness feel credible to skeptical crews. We also get into the so-called woo-woo tools like yoga, mindfulness, breathing, and how biofeedback can prove what your nervous system is doing even when you swear nothing is changing. If you want first responder mental health strategies you can apply tomorrow, this conversation stays grounded in the day-to-day reality of the work.

Family comes up in a big way. Hypervigilance can be an occupational adaptation on scene, but it can strain relationships when it follows you home. We break down how to “dial the hyper down” without losing your edge, why informed family support can be the strongest protective factor against secondary trauma, and how the slow grind of “death by a thousand cuts” can lead to compassion fatigue if you never pause to process.

We also dig into peer support: what it looks like when it is only reactive, what changes when it becomes responsive and progressive, and why training, boundaries, and clinical guidance matter so a peer team builds trust instead of breaking it. Subscribe, share this with someone on shift, and leave a review so more first responders can find practical resilience training that works.

Stephanie can be reached via her website https://firstresponderpsychology.com

Her LinkedIn account is https://www.linkedin.com/in/dr-stephanie-conn/

Transcript

Welcome And Mission Of The Show

SPEAKER_01 0:01

Welcome to Resilience Development in Action with Steve B. Holmes. This is the podcast dedicated to first responder mental health, helping police, fire, EMS, dispatchers, and paramedics create better growth environments for themselves and their team. Let's get started.

The Book Story And Guest Intro

SPEAKER_00 0:29

Well, hi, and welcome to this new episode of Resilience Development in Action. I gotta tell you that I'm very excited. I I will share the story because it's funny. I was doing a presentation at the Fraternity Order of Police in Las Vegas and I was recommending books. And the book I was recommending was someone called Stephanie Cohn. Am I getting that right? Con. And this was the book I said, oh yeah, this is a great book. And then someone in the crowd says, read the second edition, it's better. And lo and behold, Stephanie's in the crowd. And not only did I read, look, you can see it's well worn, I read it. She also signed it. And I couldn't wait to have her on the podcast. For you know, this is something that I'm very it's so well written, it talks about real stuff, and it's palpable to both therapists and first responders in general. I know it's law enforcement directed, but I think a firefighter or a paramedic could probably use it in a correctional staff, definitely. But I want to introduce Stephanie Khan to finding your way through therapy. Very good. And I said the wrong word word. That's my old podcast. I can't keep from saying I was I was stunned.

SPEAKER_02 1:40

I was like, what? Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:42

So you so you guys get to see all the mistakes I make. It's okay. Okay. I like to be authentic, but you know, it's it's one of those things that when I was reading this book, I was like, this is all palpable. And then the second one makes it even easier to read. And there's so much more information in the second edition. So she didn't ask me to plug this. I'm doing this on my own. Absolutely read. There's there's more tables in the second one. So if you want to jump just to the tables, you'll get a lot of information from that too. You know, the cognitive distortions, as I would call it, or the thought process errors, as Stephanie calls it, but there's a lot of great stuff in here. But you know, I can go on and on about what I loved about this book. But maybe it's time for my audience to know who you are. So, Stephanie, how about you introduce yourself to my audience?

Stephanie’s First Responder Path

SPEAKER_02 2:28

Very well. I grew up a cop's daughter in a small town in North Texas. And so that was an interesting way to kind of grow up is being a cop's daughter in a small town. And then I became a dispatcher and I met a really cute officer while I was a dispatcher, and he was an officer, but I know not to shit where I eat. And so, or at least I learned that one. And so I we waited until I moved into another department as an officer, and then he and I started dating. And 27 years later, here we are. And so he was 18 years in law enforcement. I was nine as an officer, did my three-year stint as a dispatcher, and then for good measure, I did another three years doing victim service work after being a police officer, which is kind of an interesting path. And the reason that is, is that when I was an officer, one of my coworkers was killed in the line of duty, and I was a peer support team member. And I was actually talking about that to someone yesterday because I was doing crisis management briefing for his death, for my coworker's death. And I was just talking about yesterday that I'm doing one tomorrow morning for another department, not for a death, but for a different incident. But when I was looking out to see who I might refer my peers to that were struggling for any number of reasons, you know, relating to the death or relationship stuff or what have you, there just wasn't anyone at that time that was specializing in working with first responders. And so I thought, okay, I've always loved psychology. I'm a peer team member. I love it. I do a lot of the training on the wellness stuff in this domain. And so perhaps I'll just step out or I'll start taking some counseling courses and I'll be a cop and do counseling courses, and then I'll probably reach a point where I got to step out to do the counseling stuff, but then I'll come right back in. And when I stepped out of policing to become to go to counseling courses, I was able to do some on-called victim service work to kind of keep myself in the yuck and out there and going into the kind of the worst calls and situations and and finished my PhD and opened up my practice and it was all she wrote. Like so many people were like, oh, wait, you've done my job, or you're married to someone that's in my job, or your dad's done my job, or all the above. And, you know, so I have just had my practice ever since. And that's first responder psychology. And now, you know, as far as like who I am, is I still therapise three days a week. So it's important to me to still sit behind closed doors and hear people's stories and what they're going through with policing nowadays, or as a firefighter, dispatcher EMS corrections, all the things. And so it's important to me to still hear that these days, but then another two or three days a week, I'm in an agency doing something like tomorrow. I'm doing the crisis management briefing for an officer that was shot on Sunday. And so I am in the agency setting. I won't be on a fire rig next Friday after two hours of peer training. I jump on the rig and I'm on the rig for another four to six hours and doing that kind of stuff. And so I'll be, you know, so I uh even the day before that, I'm working in in human trafficking, the unit, and that kind of business. And so I just kind of now get to have arguably the best job that there is because I'm behind closed doors, one-on-one with people, being trusted for people to talk about their stuff. And I'm out there doing the stuff and seeing what it's like out there and talking with people and doing the training and going to the calls still and that kind of business. And so my husband's medically retired and my dad retired after almost 40 years in policing. He's no longer with me, but is still with me, if you know what I mean. So I don't know if you have anything you want to ask me about any of that, but I wrote about 12 questions already.

SPEAKER_00 6:07

So okay. Because you know, the first thing that you talked over talked over, talked about is you know, you talk about what you've done as a police officer. The one that you mentioned, you you mentioned also human trafficking. But to me, one of the hardest things that I hear from police officers myself is once once you have investigating about with victims, particularly human trafficking or sexual exploitation, especially of children. And that's rough. I mean, that's what I hear like not like it's you're not even there, but you feel for those kids and for those victims who are, you know, I know we're all the way up in Massachusetts, but it's not like human trafficking doesn't occur in Massachusetts, even

Self Care That Fits The Job

SPEAKER_00 6:46

though we're not near the border. How do you deal with that? I think my first question would be like, you've done the hard parts, but you like you'd say you're like three, three, where do you find time to take care of Stephanie? Because I think that that's what I always tell my guys is that you gotta find times to like, you know, go do underwater basket weaving or some shit, just to keep your mind off all that.

SPEAKER_02 7:06

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, and that's the thing is being self-employed, I can work for a shitty boss or a great one, right? Just kind of depending on how I want to show up. And so I tend to find that having a late start to the day is better for me because it gets me, as I mentioned to you before we even started the recording, is I can steal some time for myself to do what I want to do in my creative processes, or I can do dog walking, or I have a uh gym here in my office or in my home rather, and I do yoga and dog walks and hikes and all the things and do I have the most strict sleep routine out there. And so to the degree that I can, I practice what I preach. And I don't tell people, hey, you know, eat better, sleep better, do this and that and the other, and then I just go do whatever I feel like doing, right? I I try to embody those that wisdom, if you will.

SPEAKER_00 8:02

I remember first mentioning yoga and mindfulness to one of the officers. This is years ago when I first mentioned that. What do you think I got as a response when I said that?

SPEAKER_02 8:12

Oh, a a laugh or something sarcastic.

SPEAKER_00 8:16

Yeah, sure. I can't wait to get there with you, right? So, you know, one of the things, you know, we're we're gonna get I I can't wait to talk more about the book, but since we're talking about this, I want to really concentrate on how do we make it palpable? Because me telling I told my guys yoga and Pilates and doing that type of you don't need to be intense, you know, because of course the guy who decided to do it, he's like, I found hot yoga for advanced people. Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, chill the fuck down. You're not there yet. Yeah, but it's hard for them to make it palpable to them to do that stuff, but it's so beneficial. I feel that the younger generation is a little more open to it, but like, you know, the the older veterans, for lack

Making Mindfulness A Performance Tool

SPEAKER_00 8:56

of a better word, i.e., the salty salty sailors, how do we get them to start thinking about that?

SPEAKER_02 9:02

Well, I think we have to talk about it in such a way that we recognize that it is a it's performance enhancing, right? If you are aware and you're strengthening your core and your balance and your awareness of your body and space, that I can't think of a job in first responder work that those things are not beneficial. And so if we talk about it from a performance perspective, but also recognize it from its mental training perspective, right? And it which is also part of performance. Oddly, the side effect, if you want to call it that, is well-being, right? And or we can say I'm doing this uh for my well-being, and the side effect is my performance has improved, right? I, you know, just it so it kind of depends on what the person's angle is. And I think also the beauty of it is I'm I'm a nerd, but I like to think of myself as kind of a street nerd, if you will, is I can do street or I can I can talk neuroscience, and depending on what you need me to do, and so, or what I need to do. And so I can tell people about the science behind, you know, hey, look, this isn't just something that's woo-woo. And I also like to give people the technology, some of the biofeedback devices, or encourage them to get it for themselves, detern what is woo-woo, this yoga, meditation, breathing, whatever you want to put woo-woo category, and let you see the biological changes that occur because you did it that you may or may not perceive that are still there through biofeedback that says, oh, look, your heart rate variability went up. Oh, look, your heart rate went down. Oh, look, right, you, your the erratic pattern of your heart is smoothing out, your brain patterns are smoothing out, right? So I like people to to take something and even maybe poke fun of it myself and say, hey, this woo-woo shit. I don't want it to be whoa, because you're like, oh, I'm not snapping at people anymore. I am aware of my body and space. And when I need to really be aware of my body and space and proximity to others, and you know, so I'm not standing too close to somebody or you know, that kind of stuff, or too far from someone that I want to stand close to, right?

SPEAKER_00 11:19

So no, and I think that it's you know, you talk about performance enhancement or improvement, you know, tac tactical improvement. And I I've also told people like doing this stuff will make you a better family person, also. And sometimes that makes it palpable. You talked about woo-woo stuff, you know. I almost retired about I want to say about 12 years ago because I got one of my police officers to get on the table and do some Reiki with me. And whether you believe in Reiki or not, it really doesn't matter to me because I know it works, but doesn't mean you know it works. And when they saw what it did for them, they're like, whoa. And I tell people like some of the woo-woo shit might actually work. And I think that that's why, like, I tell people, like, if you try something three times, it didn't work, then I'll give you you tried it three times, it didn't work, move on. That's fine. But I think that that's where like my sometimes I also talk about how to present it is like try it three times. You didn't go to the range the first time, miss your miss your shot, and then go, that's it, I'm quitting. No, you have to do it a few times, and you got better with time. Same thing with like the self-improvement and self-care or tactical improvement, as uh someone once told me to do.

SPEAKER_02 12:28

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, and I remember when I worked in the gang unit, I was a detective, and I got called out for a shooting, as was you know usually the case, and I had to sneak out of yoga as quietly and as discreetly as possible. But I'm kind of whispering as I'm answering the phone on my sergeant. He goes, Why are you whispering? I'm walking out of yoga. And he goes, Why are you at yoga? I don't want to be a psychopath like you. Let's just start there, right? You have you smoke cigarettes, I go to yoga. Let's see who's more flexible and who's got, you know, who's who's stronger and has better core strength and isn't having back pain and so on and so forth.

SPEAKER_00 13:08

Yeah, exactly. No, I think that that's where like finding these things that work. I think that's how I always talk about it, you know. The other part that there's too many things that you mentioned, you know, I I think when you talk about family involvement, that was another part too, is you know, being married to the job and being born from the job, essentially, too. I think

Family Impact And Dialing Down Hyper

SPEAKER_00 13:27

that sometimes family gets forgotten in this equation because it does impact them too. Do you talk to some of your people about that? Because I think that for me, it's like, yeah, you know, one of the things that therapists say, like, oh, they got to reduce their hypervigilance. They reduce their hypervigilance, they make they make for worse cops, if you ask me. But they need to be able to reduce it at home and be a human being. And sometimes that impacts the family. Do you talk about that stuff with your your crew? Because that's so important. I think sometimes like separating our role from our life is sometimes so difficult, including myself as a therapist. My kids say all the time, stop therapizing me. So I know how it is, but in a different way.

SPEAKER_02 14:07

Yeah. Yeah. And I think one of the presentations that they had at FOP was, and I I'm gonna butcher the title of it, but the gist of it was she's she says, is this a symptom or is this an occupational adaptation? And you know, so we can call hypervigilance a symptom, or we can call it an occupational uh adaptation. And so it all depends on how appropriate it is. And I tell people, look, I was born hyper-vigilant, right? Like my dad's blood and my mom's history through and through. Like I was born hyper-vigilant. And if I wasn't already, then I think my dad taking me on ride-alongs, on official ride-alongs when I was a kid when he was on the drug task force made me hyper-vigilant. So I'm not asking you to give up vigilance, I'm asking you to dial the hyper down. So if we're going to talk about that particular one, but coming back more pointedly to your question about family, that is part of everything that I look into and talk about. And that's why, and I'm, you know, the in my book, both versions of it, every chapter has a section for family members. But I tell people, I warn people, don't just read the section for yourself, skip the one for the family member, skip the one for the civilian, skip the one for uh the administrator. You need to read all of them because you need to each kind of understand what each person's, yeah, what each person's perspective is and each person's challenge is, and so that we have a better, more well-rounded view and understanding of it all. And so it's in mind, but I'm a big proponent of the books I Love a Cop and I Love a Firefighter by Dr. Ellen Kirschman. I think it's those are incredible resources. And there's there's several others as as well. Cindy Doyle's Hold the Line, Code for Counsel, Counseling, all these kinds of things. And so Code for Couples, excuse me. So I'm a big proponent of those resources and those individuals. And even just my own master's thesis was what helps and hinders cops to deal with their exposure to secondary trauma, meaning the trauma exposure from other people. And the number one protective factor was family members, when family members were informed and supportive and intact and all the things. And they were the number one risk factor when they were strained or tense or estranged or an understanding of the profession and not wanting them to do certain things or be certain ways or that kind of stuff. And so they're either your number one risk or protective factor, depending on how well family members are supported to be healthy in the job that their person is doing and to help the person as well. So it's it's both.

Sponsor Message And Discount Code

SPEAKER_00 17:08

This episode is gonna be supported by Deemed Fit. Deemed Fit is a first responder-owned activewear and a leisure brand. And one thing that I genuinely like about them is that they support different causes. I actually gave a few people I know who work with first responders or nonprofits, they're named to uh Deemed Fit, and I know they're talking to them. They do a lot of initiatives and collections that are based on mental health for first responders. And if you go there right now and you buy anything, including the mental health support stuff, use the code RDA15. That's right, R D A 15 to get 15% off on any products that you get. Again, it's called RDA15. Go to M-E-D F-I-T.com and enjoy 15% off at checkout test. Now, right back to the episode.

Secondary Trauma And Death By Cuts

SPEAKER_00 18:00

I think that I I agree with you. And the secondary trauma thing is one of the things that I say that first responders and therapists have in common, because we are exposed to some trauma from what people say and do like in their job. And that's part of what I say. Like, this is what I do to protect myself from this secondary trauma. And sometimes it is, you know, like there's days where I tell people, like, if you call me past my, I don't know, five o'clock, if I'm done at five, I might go, I don't want to talk to you, but it's not personal. And it's not because of anything else, but I need to like do something to process for myself. I think that that's the other part too, is when we talk about secondary trauma, I'm like, how are you processing that stuff? Because if you're just jumping out from the job and going home and your kids are like, me, me, me, I need this, I need that, or your spouse is upset because they spent the whole day with the kids or what have you, or even if they're just having a bad day. I mean, to me, the secondary trauma is like something that needs to be addressed regularly because sometimes it's not about the worst call in your life, it's about 14 different calls that are just sometimes annoying, sometimes difficult.

SPEAKER_02 19:06

Yeah, yeah. And that's what Ellen Hirschman talks about in her in I Love a Cop when she talks about deaf by thousand cuts. So it isn't one particular call as much as it is just this kind of ongoing. And then that's where we come up with the saying we we bleed on people that didn't cut us, and the family members, and the friends, and the neighbors, and the people in traffic, and all that kind of next citizen encounter, patient encounter, what have you, they didn't cut you, but they get bled on by you as a first responder because like you just keep getting cut by both the operational hassles as well as the organizational ones.

SPEAKER_00 19:46

Now, I'll finish on this because I agree with you 100%. I really recommend people read that book too. Uh Sisyphus is another thing that comes to mind about pushing the rock up the hill, up the hill, up the hill until you're done and it rolls back down. You got and sometimes that repetitive thing that police officers go out through or first responders in general and correction, I mean, it's so important to think about.

The GI Joe Fallacy Of Resilience

SPEAKER_00 20:09

So yeah, I think that maybe it's a good way to segue to something that's always what's called resilience development in action, even though I get the name wrong sometimes. Resilience. I think that one of the things that happens is that we think about resilience in a certain way. You're tough, you can handle this and stuff like that. But I think that sometimes that's one mistake that people make. Do you think what's the maybe the biggest mistake first responders make about resilience? How to define it or what have you?

SPEAKER_02 20:37

I don't think they pay enough attention to it, is actually more of an issue. I think they may get into what is referred to as the GI Joe fallacy. And this is gonna date me because I'm back to the 1900s, I was born in the 1900s, and there was a commercial that came on in between cartoons and you know, like GI Joe or whatever, and they'd say, Hey, little kids, don't get in panel vans with guys named Chester, and now you know, and knowing is half the battle, right? And they uh researchers have got resilience researchers have gone by and said, Well, that's really not how it works because we know a lot of things. We we know we need to eat well and sleep and not drink too much and not kick the dog and have healthy outlets and blah, blah, blah. It's it's the application of it that is where it's falling apart or the consistent application of it. And so some people know what resilience is. I've got to do certain things to make myself more resilient to be able to work through something I'm dealing with. And then sometimes they don't understand how, you know, certain kind of strategies that could enhance that. But even if they did, I think it still falls apart because we're we're, you know, in history, we have more information available to us than we ever did. And that statement will continue next week, next month, so and so as you know, the the knowledge base learn expands. But until we figure out how we one become aware of are we resilient and what are what's promoting that and what's taking away from that. And so if we do not have some kind of regular awareness practice, just like we would have a regular awareness of scene safety, if we are not aware of what is going to harm us on a call when we show up, or what is what we might need, it uh we can't make the choices to consistently be safe on the scene or to be consistently resilient in life. And oftentimes we get pulled away from the demand that's right in front of us, whatever is needed, and we will not pay attention to those kind of foundational pieces of resilience because they're not commanding our attention. And we're not aware until we end up finding ourselves in a bad way for health-wise, relationship-wise, work-wise, whatever it looks like.

SPEAKER_00 23:10

I was trying to find the page and I can't find it, but I know I was reading about how you know we do first assessment, secondary assessment, first assessment at secondary based on all that safety stuff. What's going on? What's my next move? And police officers particularly have to run through this very quickly. I would argue firefighter paramedics, dispatch, and corrections also have all have to do that. But then that cycle, because you do it so often, there's a tiredness. You know, there's that you get exhausted from doing it. So if you don't have those tools, you're kind of not able to do it properly. And that's where sometimes judgment gets off. I know you don't mention that in your book. That's just my two cents about what I think happens if you don't do that. You know, being resilient and paying attention to what is your what are you going to do to take care of yourself on a regular basis?

SPEAKER_02 23:57

Yeah. And I think the more if we kind of take

Habit Stacking And Micro Reflection

SPEAKER_02 24:00

from some of the habit-building geniuses out there, you know, that talk about habit stacking, you know, James Clear's work on building better habits and such, and we don't figure out how we say, hey, as a regular process, just like what we do in, you know, first responder work. Hey, after a call, we're gonna hot wash that, as what they call it in firefighting. We're gonna hot wash that and we're gonna, you know, see what we did and blah, blah, blah. We don't do that with ourselves and say, hey, at the beginning of the day or at the end of the shift, or at the end of my day, well, maybe not the end of the day. That's not the time to be getting into big stuff, big thought processes when we're trying to sleep. But maybe at the end of the shift or at the beginning of the day, we don't routinely kind of stack and have a habit of this is a moment of reflection. It doesn't have to be going off and sitting for 30 minutes under a tree and reflecting on the meaning of life. But maybe you take a one-minute, two-minute kind of reflection. How did I show up today? What do I want to show up tomorrow? What is there anything I learned from my experiences today? But then even in micro moments where just kind of being aware, gritting my teeth. I wonder why my head hurts. I'm holding tension in my fists, you know, these kinds of things. I've got a permanent indentations because I am constantly burrowing my brow, right? So, and that isn't about the aesthetic of it, you know, the our appearance, but it's about us holding tension and just not even being aware we're holding tension in our body. So, which has chemical consequences and thought process consequences and all that stuff.

SPEAKER_00 25:42

So I think there's I also want to mention that compassion fatigue when you're not paying attention to this increases dramatically, almost exponentially, when you're not paying attention to these little things that you talked about. So I think that's another thing to talk

Peer Support That Is Proactive

SPEAKER_00 25:57

about. I also want to mention a little bit about peer support because I think that's so important that most departments need a. I think that the many of them around here in Massachusetts have peer support, if not all at this point. But I think peer support is so important. I think that fire has always done it informally around, you know, the table at the fire station after a call. It's not, it's always been a little more except with police. I I don't know Texas, but many towns around here, you you know, you go to a call, you're alone. Maybe the sergeant backs you up if it's big and lieutenant or you get some backup. But ultimately, once you leave the place, you're alone. You know, you don't have a partner in the vehicle with you. That can you talk more about peer support and how important it is for most departments to have them?

SPEAKER_02 26:39

Yeah, and I've I have heard what you've just said several times from people on the East Coast where they say, you know, fire has got it kind of squared away more so than police. And the opposite is true, not across the board, but generally speaking, the opposite is true on the West Coast. And uh who knows it's a mixed bag down the middle of the country, I suppose. But yeah, I have yeah, I have I just want to know what Texas is now. Yeah, well, yeah, they have yeah, they've got the law enforcement peer support network. So yeah, I mean, I think the thing is is that peer support is incredibly important. But if you look at the history of peer support in the first responder profession in particular, it has been really more has a history more out of critical incident stress management. When something bad happened, we all come together, we talk about the bad thing that happened, we ask, you know, get people with resources, we fill in holes in the story, we do these things. And that's great. That's what's oftentimes needed in the immediate aftermath of a critical incident. But there has been this evolution and understanding and the peer support really, peer support really has come more out of the addictions area and has come out of educational spaces and other kinds of places where we're like, hey, wait, we we don't need to have some big T, as they call it the big trauma. Um we need people, peers, to come alongside their peers and talk with them through the smaller traumas, the small teas, the the day-to-day wear and tear, the relationship, you know, the burnout, those types of things. And then, and so I make a distinction between reactive, which is critical incident stress management, and uh by design, it's critical incident, and then responsive, which is oh, I noticed, you know, Bob's not acting the same, Jane's not acting the same. Like I'm gonna go check in on an M or make some contacts. And so that's responsive to something you've noticed, and progressive, which is do we have to show a change in our behavior? Do we have to show a change in our showing up for work or those types of things? Or can we be progressive and say, can we all kind of become resilience ninjas as peer team members and help our peers become resilience ninjas by giving them tools and making it okay culturally for people to say, hey, this call bothered me, or this parent that's getting, you know, older and sicker and you know, more feeble, you know, that I that's really starting to kind of wear on my soul a bit like, you know, can we actually have those conversations more proactively where we're preparing people for those types of things, whether it be through training or programs or even self-assessments that they can do, or they're just like, hey, no one's gonna get this data, just just assess for yourself. How do you feel like you're caring for yourself with the compassion fatigue, with the burnout, with the relationship strain, those kinds of things? So I think that's really where we need to be taking peer support. And that's where I'm trying to take peer support when I'm engaged with agencies doing this. And if you want to talk about Sissippus feeling like you're pushing the rock up, there are some that are standing alongside me pushing that rock up. And then there are others that are saying, oh gosh, no, because I'm trying to do peer support off the corner of my desk. I already have 10 million demands, uh, there's no budget for that. And oh, you know, and I'm not saying that there, there's not truth to that, but it it does make it harder to push that rock up at times.

SPEAKER_00 30:20

I think there's so many things that you said. I would argue that, you know, what I tell my guy is, and I'll save the whole story because I want to respect the privacy. When uh someone called me after three major incidents in one day, one involving a family member, and he called me the day after, and we started working together right away. And while, you know, the family member particular story still gets to him a little bit, which is normal if you ask me, because that would happen to anyone in the community in the civilian world, he was able to handle it. And how I what I explained to a lot of people is that's how you keep it to be acute stress disorder, not post-traumatic stress. And being able to do the work right away is so key. And the fact that he had the, I don't know, the guts to call me, whatever you want to call it. And, you know, he knew how in Judge M. He he heard of me from XYZ. That really helped. I guess the the the next thing I want to mention before but like I I the thing that you talked about peer support in Sisyphus. Where do you think peer support is right now and where do you want to bring it?

SPEAKER_02 31:24

And where it is depends on where you're at, right? Honestly, because um places are really dialed in. And they like I saw an email earlier today from one of my peer leads who's was talking about the topic for for next week's training and was telling me what that they were doing as peer teams, that they were doing wellness rounds with with all their shifts. So they are progressive, they are they're not just reactive, they're progressive. And then they're having me come in on a regular basis and having me on a rig, having conversations, and that's not peer support, but it is a peer support-driven initiative because they see this as part of an entire picture.

Bad Peer Teams And Why It Matters

SPEAKER_02 32:07

And so I think in some places they're great. And then I think in other places there is um the old regime stand strong. We don't need anyone, we're good. You know, you know, peer support. You know, I think sometimes the the peer teams themselves, and I've I have to be careful how I say this. I I have said the only thing worse than no peer team is a bad peer team. And by bad peer team, I mean one that is not properly supported with training and guidance on having healthy boundaries and having an offset of compassion fatigue by leaning into compassion satisfaction, and they don't have a clinical advisor that's able to continue their education with them on burnout or moral injury or whatever the case might be. So I think you get a bad peer team when they're not properly chosen, they're not properly screened, they're not properly trained, and they're not maintaining that training, and then they're not removing them or pausing them when it's time to pause or to be removed. Because no one gets put, and I'm just saying this bluntly, no one gets put on the SWAT team because they raise their hand first and said, Me, me, me, I want to be on SWAT team. I like they look like ninjas. I want to be a ninja, I'm gonna do that. I don't really need to train. Yep, I've done some stuff, I've you know, goofed some things, but I already said I was on it, so I'm on it. You can't get rid of me, right? So the SWAT team would kick someone off if they were not showing up to training or they were not demonstrating a commitment to the mission and the safety of it and you know, all the things, right? They would be kicked off in a flash because what the SWAT team does is incredibly important. So is what the peer team does. And for for it is so it isn't it is a different context, but it can literally be life and death on a peer that is like, I hope you have your stuff together when you show up to me as a peer team member, because it can make the difference between that peer feeling like they'll take a referral and turning things around if they were marching towards something not so good or

Part Two Tease And Closing Notes

SPEAKER_02 34:27

not.

SPEAKER_00 34:27

Well, you know, we're getting close to that half hour. Would you want to stick around for another half hour? I want to finish off on the peer support stuff and then really get to the books because the the, you know, I really want to talk more about that. Is that okay with you? Yeah, sounds good to me. Well, for everyone listening right now, come back for part two of the of this episode next on resilience development in action. And I thank you for listening this week.

SPEAKER_01 34:49

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