Peer Support Without Gossip

If peer support is supposed to be a safe place, why do so many first responders avoid it because they’re afraid their story will end up in the station, the briefing room, or the chief’s office? Stephanie Conn get blunt about the real problem behind “peer support doesn’t work” and it’s usually not the idea, it’s trust, confidentiality, and what happens when one person treats private conversations like gossip.

We walk through what strong peer support programs do differently: clear boundaries, transparent language about the narrow exceptions to confidentiality, and the courage to name the elephant in the room when a team’s reputation has been damaged. We also dig into something that doesn’t get said enough in police, fire, EMS, and dispatch culture: sometimes the healthiest move for a peer supporter is to hit pause. Stepping back because your capacity is shot isn’t weakness, it’s integrity, and pretending you’re fine while telling others to “take care of yourself” is the fastest way to lose credibility.

From there, we shift into resilience that actually fits first responder life. We talk about writing and teaching in plain language, translating research into tools people will use on shift, and why understanding the “why” behind strategies matters. Nutrition, stress hormones, sleep, and the messy reality of progress all come up, including the reminder that growth looks more like a squiggly line than a straight climb. We also preview a new peer support book and where to find it, plus a simple question we think every guest should answer: What is your why?

If this helped you think differently about peer support and first responder mental health, subscribe, share the episode with a coworker, and leave a review so more people can find it.

You can find everything about Stephanie, including her books at her website at https://firstresponderpsychology.com

Her LinkedIn account is https://www.linkedin.com/in/dr-stephanie-conn/

DeemedFit: First Responder Owned
We are a first responder owned company looking to get first responders in the best mental shape.

Disclaimer: This post contains affiliate links. If you make a purchase, I may receive a commission at no extra cost to you.

Transcript

Welcome And Mission

SPEAKER_00 0:01

Welcome to Resilience Development in Action with Steve B. Holmes. This is the podcast dedicated to first responder mental health, helping police, fire, EMS, dispatchers, and paramedics create better growth environments for themselves and their team. Let's get started.

Peer Support And Confidentiality Fears

SPEAKER_02 0:29

And just by magic, we're back and we're wearing the same clothes. It's always the same joke I make, but hey, I'll get a new one soon, I'm pretty sure. I want to talk more about pure support because what you made as points is having, you know, a good clinical support system, having the right person and the right team in place. And I know we got to walk some lines. I'll not, I don't have to walk a line. I'm I'm a I'm a civilian. I've never worked in the field, but I've been there long enough. I've been embedded in teams. One of the biggest complaints that I hear from other people is there's some of the peer support people get to, you know, we already have problems with people gossiping. And now you go see the peer support person, and lo and behold, now the your captain, your dep, your your chief all know that you have having a problem with XYZ. I think that that's the other thing that I wanted to mention. I know that's not what you were saying. This is what Steve is saying, and I'm an individual. How do we address that? Because there's a lot of teams that are like they want to be able to go to their peer support person or persons or people, but then sometimes because they're embedded with telling the chief or whoever what's going on, how do we deal with that?

SPEAKER_01 1:38

Yeah, it it's there's actually a quote that's in my peer support book that's coming out that says, sometimes we don't want to talk to a person because we don't know them. Sometimes we don't want to talk to a person because we do. And so it really does highlight that if we know a person is not, is, is not gonna keep their mouth shut, like the reputation of one is the reputation of all, right? And that's whether it's peer supporters and oftentimes clinicians, and and that's not right. It's just it's just how it is.

Rebuilding Trust With An Accusation Audit

SPEAKER_01 2:10

And so, you know, I have actually worked, and I'm gonna be really careful here. I've worked with agencies where we've scrapped an entire team and said we we go back over and we we we start the the uh nomination process and the screening and the application and screening process all over again because we want the best people in there. And then in terms of damage control, and I've had this conversation with peer coordinators and the supervisors that kind of are doing kind of program management, not the peer team per se, but program management. Like, so what how do we even recover from that? And I said, we have to do what they do in hostage negotiations is we have to do an accusation audit, which is to say, we're going to name, we know that the confidentiality of our people has been in in question, and we are aware of what you are aware of, right? And we take that seriously, and we are taking great measures to ensure this is done well. And so that's what we do. I mean, that's that's what you do, is you actually have to name, and just like if someone comes to me as a clinician and they've had a clinician prior to me fall asleep on him or cry in the session or do their dumb shit that they tend to do, um, I have to typically pay for the sins of the people that came before me, unless they come to me through like a refer, like a known referral or something like that, and they know me, is I just go, you can say what you need to say, and it stays here, unless these, you know, very narrow things. And I'm not gonna cry or fall asleep on you. So peer supporters may have to actually do that same kind of thing, is just like be very transparent and just say there are, you know, these four exceptions, you know, depending on your state. There are these four exceptions, and you know, but I also am aware that others did not adhere to that before. And I'm not here to, you know, talk smack about somebody else, but just to know, just to acknowledge, I know what your or I can imagine what your concerns are. And it concerns me too. It's like saying, you know, no thing only person that hates a bad cop or no one hates a bad cop more than a good cop. No one hates a peer supporter that runs their mouth any more than a peer supporter that takes the the role seriously. And even saying that right is can be incredibly important. And then again, weeding out

When Peer Supporters Need A Pause

SPEAKER_01 4:42

and you know, and the confidentiality piece is is is part of it. The other part of it is what if the peer supporter is nominated, screened, trained, dialed in, goes through two or three of their own personal or professional traumas, or gets into some stage in life because they've changed assignments or have a health issue or family thing or whatever. They need to have the emotional maturity and an insight to be able to say, you know what? Peer support was great for me at one point. It's not great for me now, which means it's not gonna be great for the people I'm peer supporting. I'm gonna hit the pause button. I care enough about how much I show up in this role. I'm gonna hit the pause button. When I get this thing kind of in my in my rear view mirror, I'd like to hit the play button and come back on. And agencies and teams should allow for that. And if the person doesn't self-identify, hey, it's time to hit the pause button. Then the the team lead or coordinator needs to be able to say, Hey, Bob, you haven't made it to any of the last call-outs. It seems like you've missed a certain percentage of the training. So this doesn't seem like it's the right time for you to be on the team again. No, no hard feelings. Your assignment changed, or your Swift changed, to your family situation changed. How do you feel about pausing or just leaving the tank team for now until the situation changes and you can return and give it the effort that I know you're committed to, like mentally committed to, maybe not like opportunity committed to. And I think that's how we keep that, or one of the ways we keep that team healthy.

The Weakness Myth And Integrity

SPEAKER_02 6:22

Can I play devil's advocate here for a second? I like to throw a little grenade on here. Oh, fire police. So one of the things that I've observed, and correct me if I'm wrong, saying that I have to put a pause on any role in the fire police corrections dispatch is a sign of weakness. I if for those of you on video, you'll see me do the quotes here, but it's can be perceived as a sign of weakness. Yeah. What do you say to someone who might say, Oh, I don't want to look like a pussy? I'm sorry for the language if it offended anyone, but that's what the language would be.

SPEAKER_01 6:56

Yeah. Yeah. I think it's actually, yeah, and I take that one all I I take I tackle that question all the time. I think it's a sign of ignorance to not recognize your capacity. I think it's a sign of both intelligence and integrity and purpose. And I think it actually calls for a lot of strength to say I gotta prioritize something else right now. Right. I I think it says speaks volumes for people in a very positive way to do that. And I think if someone looked at at a peer and uh you know on the peer team and and said, well, that peer team member is weak because they hit pause or they stepped out of the team, they should actually probably go because they're not embodying what anything that they're trying to preach, if you will. I put quotes on mine to somebody else, right? So the hypocrisy of a peer team member saying, hey, you need to, if you need to take off time for yourself, take off time for yourself. If you need to take a pause for this or that, do this and that and the other, but for them not to do it for themselves is there's no other word that sums it up better than hypocrisy. And nobody aspires to be a hypocrite, which is why I said earlier, I'm, you know, I'm perfect by no means, but I try to truly do what I would suggest someone else do so that I'm not hypocritical. Right?

SPEAKER_02 8:36

It's an integrity issue. I think that to me, that's exactly what we need to do. Sometimes we need to be able to put pause in our own stuff and say, wait a minute, I need to stop. I think it happens to me recently. I've had a few hospital uh stays and scares for my own health. So I have to put a pause on seeing as many clients as I was. And I was afraid a little bit, I'll be honest with you, about people's reaction. Truthfully, and again, 70 to 80 percent of my clients are first responders in some way, shape, or form. All of them said pretty much the same thing. Steve, I need you to be alive, so don't worry about this. Go take care of you because I'm not telling my story again. I don't want to repeat my story. You know my story. So I think that giving that message to people is so key about the hypocrisy. If you're telling people take care of you, take care of you, and you're like not taking care of yourself, or worse, you turn your substances, which is not what happened to me, it's just my health kind of like collapsed. I think it's so important. So I really like what you say, and I think that you're right. I think that hypocrisy sometimes is hard for people to hear, but that's the truth.

Group Rules Confidentiality And No Apologies

SPEAKER_02 9:46

The other thing I will say is my I do a group ever twice a week. I think that what I my group that I run, one of the things I say is there are two rules in my group. What says in my group stays in my group. Do not repeat it to anyone else. If I hear of it, I will cut you. No questions, no explanation, I don't give a fuck. That second rule is do not apologize. Because one of the other things that I find, and correct me if I'm wrong, is that sometimes you'll go to a peer or a therapist, oh, I'm sorry to bother you with these things. Is that the fucking point of it? And want them to talk about it is key. So I tell people you can't apologize. And it's funny because the group members now that I have have a good number. As soon as someone says I'm sorry, that down their throat, stop apologizing to yell at them. And I'm it's kind of funny, but it really helps them think about it differently.

SPEAKER_01 10:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 10:40

Uh yeah.

Why The Resilience Book Works

SPEAKER_02 10:42

Let's shift gears a little bit again. I want to talk about your book because, again, like I said, I really highly recommend it. This is the one I have. This is the second edition. I don't want to cover the mic. Increasing resilience in police and emergency personnel. I really recommend people go and grab it, therapists and first responders. I think that that's so important for people that'll do. But maybe we start with that one. And I would like to talk more about your peer support book too, because I think that'll be great. But if again, I know it's going to sound sales pitchy, but at the end of the day, it's kind of what I wanted people to understand. So if I said to you, why should I get this book? I mean, I'm in the East Coast. What would someone from Arizona, Texas really understand about the shit I do?

SPEAKER_01 11:26

Yeah. Well, this book is like anything I write, is I'm always standing on the shoulders of giants. So while I have my own experience, I'm also have the experience that comes from in anonymous ways or aggregate ways from first responders. I conducted the research in three different studies, and they were from people from all over the place. And in the studies, the results of those studies are in there. And then the part of standing on the shoulders of the giants is I looked at what is what is the research out there nationally mostly, but some international that relates to resilience in the first responder world, or could apply that I could translate to the first responder world. So some of these universal concepts that I could say, how do we, how do we fine-tune this to this population? Because, and I think you said it earlier, when there's suggestions, you know, or maybe it was a different conversation, there's suggestions to maintain a sleep schedule because the sleep experts say that, or to to do this, or to do that, but the re that's not feasible for a first responder given shift work and you know, all those other kinds of things. I'm taking some of those recommendations and saying, how does this work with a first responder? Right? How does this work given the realities of shift work? And so so why should they get it? Because I have taken a lot of this information and wrote it in such a way that it's it's approachable, right? I I write like I talk. There's profanity in there. There's even a couple of times when my editor said, Do you really mean to say this? And I was like, Yes, it's jargon, leave it in there, right? Yes, that's that's what I really mean to say. And I while there's differences in the way that we talk uh geographically in certain terms, all I've ever gotten as far as feedback goes is it resonated with me, right? And that's across the the first responder disciplines.

SPEAKER_02 13:41

Just a quick break, guys. I'm gonna talk about a new product that I really like. I actually bought one of their hoodies, it was amazing, and I really enjoyed wearing it. Uh this episode is gonna be supported by Deemed Fit. Deemed Fit is a first responder-owned activewear and a leisure brand. And one thing that I genuinely like about them is that they support different causes. I actually gave a few people I know who work with first responders or nonprofits, they're named to uh Deemed Fit, and I know they're talking to them. They do a lot of initiatives and collections that are based on mental health for first responders. And if you go there right now and you buy anything, including the mental health support stuff, use the code RDA15. That's right, R D A 15 to get 15% off on any products that you get. Again, it's called RDA15. Go to tfit.com, D-E-E, M-E-D, F-I-T.com, and enjoy 15% off at checkout test. Now, right back to the episode. I would also say that it resonates with me. And I'm on the skulls. I know I'm a civilian, but I know it resonated with some of my guys because I definitely use some of the stuff you talk about. One of the things that I also like is how you build every chapter. And I what I think that people need to understand, maybe you can explain more of your

Plain Language Science And Practical Tools

SPEAKER_02 14:58

thought process. I kind of know what you're gonna say, but I'd like to hear it from you. But you know, like you write it up about what you're talking about, then you talk about family members and tool for your duty bag. And I think that that's just a great structure for every chapter. And maybe you can thought tell them more about your thought process behind that.

SPEAKER_01 15:16

Well, I think there are times, and I've had lots of people say this to me, they're like, I want the takeaway. I want to like, what's the tools, right? I can, you know, it to me it's it's there's it's really kind of a three-part thing. What are the signs that you might have something going on or something might be presenting and a peer and your family member, whatever the, you know, your subordinators, that kind of stuff. What is the science? And when I say science, I mean the plain language, none of the psychobabble bullshit, but just like why. And the reason why I give the science is I want people to understand that most, if not every single symptom, every single sign, if you will, has a survival mechanism, is a survival adaptation, right? So that's why I want people to understand the science. And then the science also gives a rationale for what comes next, which is the strategies. And the strategies are okay, so now we know what it looks like. Now we know why it is that way, without all the stigma bullshit that goes around the weakness and you know, I'm tore up from the floor up and whatever, what have you, but rather really kind of recognizing it as to why we would have such a response to something and then why we would want to do something. Because some of the recommendations, if you don't understand, you know, because we we get these tired recommendations like eat well, right? Have a balanced diet, and you're like, and our our association with that is that, oh, well, that's about our waistline or aesthetics or our heart disease or something. And and those things are important, or the heart disease and waistline perhaps are important. But really, if you understand that nutrition has to, you know, contributes to the gut biome, which contributes to inflammation, which contributes to serotonin production, which is our mood chemical. So there's real tangible reasons why we would choose certain foods that are gonna have magnesium in them because they're gonna help us sleep, they're gonna have more of a calming effect, versus something else that has MSG. And I love MSG. I heard it stands for make shit good and I get that, but it's also excitatory and it causes us to be more keyed up, right? And so so the method to my madness is can we understand what we're looking at, why it's happening in a non-pathologizing, non, let's not label, let's label first responders as strong people, not weak, weak people. And then what are we going to do about it? And the tools through your duty belt is here's the gist of what you need to get from those kind of three kind of overarching themes.

SPEAKER_02 17:59

And I've I've had the conversation. I I know I think you mentioned in your book, that gut that's bigger, sometimes it's not only the food, it's the cortisol levels you have in your body because of the work you do.

SPEAKER_01 18:11

Yeah, oh yeah, yeah. And I had someone have this kind of aha moment last week because she's like, I don't get it. I, you know, eating pretty good. I'm trying to eat really well, but my stomach's just getting bigger. But I'm also talking to my doctor about this and that and the hormones and stress and not sleeping. And and why would my stomach get bigger? And I was like, foo is energy and energy is or is calorie and calories is energy, but you're not expending the energy and like, so where is it gonna go? Right. And stress and you know, right, blood sugar goes up and you start getting, yeah. She's like, oh my God, that's why, that's why. Oh, I just she just connected the dots for her. And I was like, okay, good. But again, even in the book, it's not to when I talk about nutrition, that's just one example. There's many others. But again, I think when people can understand some of the whys of around some of the recommendations and find, hey, gosh, if I just make a really small change, I don't have to overhaul everything. But if I can make a small change, incrementally I'm going to get a little closer to where I want to be. So that, like if I mean, just for life, for quality of life. But then if you have a critical incident, you're standing on more solid ground uh to not be knocked over by it.

SPEAKER_02 19:26

And I

Progress Is Messy In Healing

SPEAKER_02 19:27

think that the other part too, when you talk about growth, and let me know what you think. But I I I always quote Mr. Bessel Vandercock, who says, growth is not like this, it's not exponential, it looks weird, and it's these wiggly lines, and it goes really until you get to where you want, and then there's gonna plateau, and sometimes you're gonna go up and sometimes gonna go down. But I I think that that's the other part too that I feel people don't quite understand about you know therapy or whatever you decide to do. Oh, yeah, you're gonna be better after one session, you should be done after that. Of course not.

SPEAKER_01 19:58

Yeah, I think it's page two. Here's my here's what progress looks like, right? It's this horrible squiggly line. So it was you too place, right? Yeah. So I yeah, and that was I actually that's the there it is, right? So I mean, that's the thing is that I tell people, you know, oftentimes if you've gotten into a habit of avoiding stuff, then yeah, you might get some relief because you you're avoiding something, but that relief is temporary. And then when you go to actually address something, just like if I went to address a knee injury, I'm like, oh man, I'm gonna actually start physical therapy on the knee, knee injury, then I'm it's gonna, there's gonna be some inflammation and swelling the first few physical therapy. I don't go, oh my gosh, I think they're making it worse. I say, oh, I have some stuff going on in there that I'm needing to do some work on. And that's what's interesting about people going to to counseling or having open conversations with peers, is it sometimes lets them know that knee is a little sore when you get to to moving it and that approaching that conversation about that thing you're trying to avoid kind of makes us psychologically sore for a little bit until it doesn't.

SPEAKER_02 21:09

So I appreciate you. And like I said, Bessel does it well. The body keeps the score. If you ever want to read that, that's great. I don't recommend it to everyone because it's a little heavy duty to read, but it is absolutely essential for therapists, if

The New Peer Support Book

SPEAKER_02 21:24

you ask me. How about we shift gears and talk about the other book now? The peer support, the one I'd like to hear more about that. And you said, like I I think pre-interview, we talked about how that one came out of you almost like came out right away.

SPEAKER_01 21:38

Yeah. Yeah, that was a a brain dump, but in a positive way, because I, as I mentioned in my prior uh portion of the episode, I was a peer supporter. And then I went on to become a clinician that worked with peer teams and was doing occupational wellness stuff for another agency. And so, so I was always looking at and Researching what, you know, how are peer teams helping? How are they not helping? What are the most effective ones? I got pulled into the peer support guideline committee and became an ICISF instructor years ago and have been teaching peer support, thinking about peer support. So when I'm, you know, and I talked to Dr. Jack Digliani, who's, you know, a peer support expert in Colorado, and he's done some studies on some of the few studies that we actually have on the effectiveness of peer support and some of the recommendations for starting and maintaining them. And so, but in looking out there, I was like, man, there's just so much more to explore. And so many people will have so many questions. And I'm always being asked questions from peer teams and from agencies. And I'm just, it's almost a weekly, if not multiple times a week, someone asking me how to start a team or maintain a team or how to restart one. And just like the first book, I was like, man, I have something to say. And I instead of answering it here and there and just kind of putting it behind closed doors in this agency or in that other place, I'm just going to put it out there. And so it took me, and it just like the first book, still standing on the shoulders of giants and reading, you know, Dr. Jack's work, Dr. Jack Stigliani's work and other people's work and research where it is. But then a lot of and a lot of the research on what they're doing in different states, but it was it was coming out of me just lightning fast because it was just like the just a free flow of ideas because I had been thinking about it and writing about it and reflecting and training on it for so many years that it was just a matter of organizing it to be usable, to be a to be a real toolbox for teams, for agencies, for clinicians. Because a lot of the questions actually come from clinicians, right? How do we how do we do this? Right. I'm on this being asked to be on this team. What are the best practices around this?

SPEAKER_02 23:54

So and I think that that's what we need to sit on. You know, we all sit on the shoulders of giants. If you think that everyone that does anything on their in their own vacuum, I think is absolutely absurd. That's why, like I like I said, I did a presentation at the FOP. It was well received, but it was based on some of the work you've done. And I can talk about other people, but Kevin Gilmartin is another guy that I really think highly of, who gave me great ideas. We actually I did an interview with him a few months ago. But I never know everything and I never will pretend. And that humbleness of the great people that I've met is exactly that. Once you're humble about not knowing everything, you actually know more than you you think you do. So tell me, so the peer support book, is it out or is it gonna be out, or can I go buy it

Where To Preorder And Find Resources

SPEAKER_02 24:42

right now? Where can I get it?

SPEAKER_01 24:44

Yeah, it's um it's coming out, I think August 26th. The publisher will surprise everyone and they'll they'll launch it beforehand, then I'll find out afterwards. But I've been meeting all my deadlines to get certain things approved and you know, typesetting and whatnot. So hopefully they'll get it out before that. But you can pre-order it on Amazon right now. The pre-order through the publisher at Routledge will be, I think, August 6th, but I think it's going to be available for pre-order on August 26th on Amazon. And then, as always, as an author, I get my allotment usually a month before everybody else does. And so anybody that orders directly from me that's in the continental US, contiguous US, then I'm able to take pre-orders and send them to them. And so, yeah, so all I have at this point is the call is the card that says um what it, yeah, it's just the QR code for pre-order, and that just gives me the shorthand of what the chapters are, how I ended up organizing the content.

SPEAKER_02 25:47

So what I'll do is uh in the show notes, I will be putting it in on your your author Amazon thing. So that way when it shows up, it'll be right there. So people can go and order it. We'll put in your website, which is first respondersychology.com. And that way people can pre-order from you. I know I will be I'll be in line to get that. Probably won't be able to get my sign one face to face, but nonetheless, would love to see you again. Yeah. And

One Question For Every Guest

SPEAKER_02 26:17

you know, one of the things I wanted to start with all my guests, and there's always an interesting. This has came up from another podcast that someone I listened to that's not related at all, the first responder stuff. But I always thought it was a it was a great thing, and I'm gonna try to put it in my podcast. I don't know who my next guest is. I do have a list, but it's I can't tell you off the top of my head. That's what I'm saying. If there was one question I should ask about my guests, and you don't know if they're law enforcement, you don't know if they're fire, you don't know if they're just therapists or clinicians. Yeah, what would what would be the one question I think everyone should you think everyone should ask and be able to answer?

SPEAKER_01 26:55

What is your why?

SPEAKER_02 26:56

I like that.

SPEAKER_01 26:57

Right. Yeah. Because I think when we have that why, then that drives everything else. And when we lose sight of that why, that's when we get things like compassion fatigue and whatever role we're playing, right? Because we have lost sight of our compassion satisfaction, why we're doing what we're doing, what purpose it offers us. And I mean, I tell that to other clinicians and I train, I tell that to peer supporters, to clients who are first responders.

SPEAKER_02 27:27

Yeah. Well, what I'm gonna do, I think that the next one I have is a again, uh, someone who works in the law enforcement field. So I'm gonna ask them that question and I'm gonna ask the next person to ask a question. I think it's a fun thing to do in that way. It's kind of a continuance of stuff. But from the bottom, I Stephanie, you know, I really enjoy your book. This is not uh my audience knows. I don't tell people like I like this because I just want to say stuff I I did really enjoy. I got it twice, obviously. And I hope people go and get it. And I really want to thank you for your time. And hopefully at one point in time we'll meet again at some conferences and even come back on the podcast.

SPEAKER_01 28:04

Yeah, sounds great. I appreciate your time and yeah, hope to come back.

SPEAKER_02 28:09

I I you you'll you will always be invited. So thank you. And thank you to my audience, and come back for the next episode.

Closing Notes And 988 Reminder

SPEAKER_00 28:19

Please like, subscribe, and follow this podcast on your favorite platform. A glowing review is always helpful. And as a reminder, this podcast is for informational, educational, and entertainment purposes only. If you're struggling with a mental health or substance abuse issue, please reach out to a professional counselor for consultation. If you are in a mental health crisis, call 988 for assistance. This number is available in the United States and Canada.