You Can Survive The Moment Without Living In The What If

Your body can hit full panic speeds while your brain has to make courtroom-clean decisions. That tension sits at the center of my conversation with Eric Robinson, a former pastor turned FBI agent who spent 24 years in the Bureau and served on SWAT. We get real about what it means to approach a door knowing you might meet violence, and why true calm is not bravado, it is competence built through training, repetition, and trust in your teammates.

Eric walks us through a deadly force encounter that includes the grim reality of suicide by cop, the adrenaline surge that can slam your heart rate into the 170s, and the strange way time can feel stretched while everything happens fast. We talk about the “fog” that can follow, the mental replay that steals sleep, and why the what if loop feels so sticky even when the shoot is justified. If you work in policing, fire, EMS, dispatch, corrections, or any high-risk role, you’ll recognize the mix of duty, humanity, and aftermath.

We also dig into what actually supports first responder mental health after critical incidents: solid leadership, a smart after-action review, optional support that people can choose, and a team culture that stays close instead of ostracizing shooters out of legal fear. Along the way we hit the odd corners of FBI work, interagency cooperation, and the dark humor that helps people survive what the public never sees. Eric also shares his “why” and previews his memoir, Irreverend: From Saving Souls to Chasing Sinners in the FBI.

If this conversation helps you, share it with someone on your shift, then subscribe and leave a review so more first responders can find it. What part of the job do you wish more people understood?

Please reach Eric through his website at http://www.preachertobreacher.com

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Transcript

Welcome And Guest Setup

SPEAKER_00 0:01

Welcome to Resilience Development in Action with Steve Bisson. This is the podcast dedicated to first responder mental health, helping police, fire, EMS, dispatchers, and paramedics create better growth environments for themselves and their teams. Let's get started.

SPEAKER_01 0:29

Hi, and welcome again to Resilience Development in Action. And just like this, we're back. Me and Eric Robinson, who has been worked as a pastor, worked as an FBI agent. We've been talking about that. Go back to the first episode because that was to me very fun to talk about that transition as well as the underbelly of uh the world and how to deal with humans in general. The only thing I forgot to say in the first episode is I hear that FBI agents work on computers, they don't actually work on people. But anyway, that's just something I've heard from.

SPEAKER_02 1:03

Yes. So like the joke is the bad guys are in here somewhere. I just have to find them.

SPEAKER_01 1:09

And if you guys are just listening, he actually uh I go on the video, but he was actually pretending to type. So I want to make sure you you guys know what he was doing.

Living With Threats On The Job

SPEAKER_01 1:18

But you know, one of the things that I worry about from all my guys I work with, and even with my guests who have been on former first first responders in general, police, among others, is having your life threatened. And, you know, this is not like people like, oh yeah, well, you live in a small town USA. Listen, I've heard of small town USA still having a gun pulled on them. Oh, yeah. As an FBI agent, you probably have encountered that at least a couple of times, right? So how do you deal with these constant threats? Because it's not fun. We talked a little bit about the fun part of helping a kid go home at 1030 at night, but now we're talking about the harder part of your life is in danger.

SPEAKER_02 1:56

Yeah, and when uh being on the SWAT team, we were doing what other agents do, going to make an arrest, clear a house for a search warrant, but SWAT was called when the threat level was higher. So we had a few more tools, a lot more training, different vehicles. And so now SWAT comes, but we're coming for the guys who are more likely to bring violence. But every single time we roll up on a house, you don't know if this person is going to oppose you violently. Most of the time, by far, they come out hands up because when you have that huge show of force, guy looks out his window, and I've we'd seen this multiple times. You know, he sees 15 guys, ballistic rated bear cat, rifles with lasers pointed in windows, it cuts down his options. Like the option is die or come out. And so most guys, and then we found as we go in right by that window, there was a handgun, you know, he thought, let's see what's here, and no. So each time there were there was a threat, but especially on SWAT, having gone through that training so often and feeling proficient myself, knowing that I was very competent, and then seeing the guys next to me perform in the same way, going in real world situations, handling themselves well, they were at least as good as I was. That made for the event where we rolled up on a house where I had no fear. It it was just calm. My only thought process was what's my assignment, and do I have the equipment necessary to carry it out? Which allows for the highest level of performance. Because if there's not something in the back of my mind of, oh man, we've got to be careful, watch out for this, I can just just look straight ahead to see what's there. So that made for a more comfortable environment for me where I felt like we were going to be successful. It might have been a bit of naivety, a bit of a survivorship bias where every time I'm safe, so of course I'll be safe this time, but we went through that. And then I'll show you this. We had

A SWAT Shooting And Body Reactions

SPEAKER_02 4:16

one time where we had a guy subject who had mental health problems, had assaulted police, was trading in child pornography, which the bureau had kind of raised the threat level on these guys. And as we hit the house, my buddy on the corner, who's three of us covering the back and the side of the house, called out, drop the bat. And going through the situation as he deliberately came towards us with a bat, our our deadly force policy says we can employ deadly force if there is an imminent threat of death or serious bodily harm to ourselves or others. So there was a certain point where our retreating had to stop as we gave him every opportunity to surrender. And then his last words as he charged with a bat was kill me. So we we knew what his intent was. But I look back after that day, and I'll show you this. Looked at my Garmin watch, and you can tell me the minute we got into a shooting. So my heart rate, you know, hey, we're we're active, I'm carrying equipment, so it's up a little bit, and then it spikes to 178 beats a minute. Right. And then it comes down. Yeah, I mean, immediately. So we wouldn't be talking if it spiked to 178 and then plateaued for more than a you know minute or two. No, we wouldn't be like because you can't handle that. But the body said, You need some energy, there's a threat, I'm gonna give it to you. And then the body said, the mind said, okay, the threat is no longer, let's bring it back to work. And and then I came right back down to that normal activity level of a heart rate. But what was crazy about that too, and I know people talk about it, but I talked to my buddy after everything is done. And I said, How long do you think that was? Which is that was my first thought, is like everybody talks about this. I said, How long do you think that was? And he says, probably about five minutes. And I go, right, that's what it felt like to me. I bet it's much shorter. It was a fucking minute and a half. And and I can tell you everything that went on during that time to the point where when he charged, I came offline with a flashbang to clear the line of fire for my buddies, and I threw it at him to see if that might hinder him. And he went down when I threw it, and I thought, that's weird. And my mind started processing the events so quickly, and I went, oh, no, wait, those were gunshots as well. I mean, they were at the same time as a flashbang. And I'm paused, and you can see it on our body cams, and then oh, I now I've got to secure him because I don't know if he's got a gun in his waistband or what, you know, so boom, on top of him. So all of that, and we can talk about the processing of that too, if you want.

SPEAKER_01 7:26

Well, it's up to you, but you know, that suicide by cop stuff is something that is not really talk talked about a whole lot, and when it does occur, it just affects officers probably more than they let on because no one wants to take a life like that.

SPEAKER_02 7:42

No, and and we gave him like far more. My buddy who pulled the trigger was like, we we let him go too far, which is just natural. Like, hey, it's a bat, my life isn't threatened yet. Come on, kid, come on, kid, stop it. And then the uh the final gift he gave us as guys are quickly in there, you know, working on him and rendering aid immediately, was that he had AIDS. So you know now everybody's going to get you know full of blood getting tested afterwards.

After Action Reviews And The What If

SPEAKER_02 8:12

But our process afterwards, I thought was so well done. We had a close-knit SWAT team. Our team leader Ben is a great leader, and I don't know if he thought this through, but he had been planning ahead of time talking to other TLs whose teams have been in shooting. So he was getting ready for the inevitable. And we had a great employee assistance leader and chaplain come in, and we do after action reviews for every operation, just normal. Right. And and so we sit down, everybody's there, and we go around the room with the chaplain and EAP, Kristen there, and it wasn't a mandatory, hey, go meet with a therapist, go talk about it. It was an after-action review. And everybody went around and just told what role they had and maybe what thoughts they had. And naturally, you know, feelings are coming out too, and you know how how this was this experience was for them. And I remember that the night of the shooting. I I I didn't feel bad. I mean, the kid forced us. I felt like wish he hadn't done that, but I didn't feel regret, like, oh man, shouldn't take a life. Like he forced it. But I that night I couldn't sleep because my mind kept replaying it to see if we could do this again, but this time, you know, get the bat away from him. Yeah, like it just kept going through. It's like, let's try this one more time until I finally like just sat up and thought, stop doing this, you know, just let it go. That that did happen. It's not gonna get resolved, it's done.

SPEAKER_01 9:56

If I had a dime for every time I've talked to someone who told me, like, I did what I had to do, but that doesn't mean the tape replayed in my head. Right. And the common words, and this is what I work on. I'm not gonna do therapy with you, but I don't mind, I don't mind. It's that what if.

SPEAKER_02 10:13

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 10:13

And I tell people that conditional will never help you. Because what if, what if, what if? Like I I have like a page of notes since we started talking, and there's like, oh, I should go back. Oh, like what if I went back? Like, I have what ifs every day. This was more of a human life. I understand it's a little heavy, yeah, yeah. Don't get me wrong, but the what ifs will never serve you because it's not gonna change what happened, and you need to stay in the present. We talked a little bit about that previous we got on, but being able to stay in the moment and having to say you made the best decision with the tools you had at the time is really the key because it's as much as people who may not get it, and I certainly have never done that, so I'm not gonna pretend I do. I do know also that sometimes being in the moment, you'll say stuff, or in your in this particular situation, do something, and you're gonna question yourself no matter what. And that's just how it is, you just can't be married to that what if.

SPEAKER_02 11:08

Yeah, and and you know what's interesting about this is I I was not asking what if my body, my mind was that I I wasn't saying to myself, we could have done this different. I absolutely did not, but my spirit was forcing that out of you you want to have not done this. You're not you're not sad about it, you're not shameful of it, but you want to not have had to do this, and I'm gonna draw that out until it's addressed.

SPEAKER_01 11:41

Right. And I think that that's just natural because one of the things that you know you can shoot someone anytime you want for regular reasons or not, and for justified reasons or not. But I tell people like it's not natural, we're not made as human beings to take away people's lives. We're not. You can play all the video games you want, you can play GTA and Fortnite all you want. It's not natural for humans to do that, and it just plays with your psyche. So, like you said, maybe you weren't consciously asking yourself, but your body unconscious was going, hey, right?

SPEAKER_02 12:12

This is messed up, you haven't done this before. Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 12:15

So I think that you know, I appreciate you saying that. The other thing that I want to, I'm this my PSA in my soapbox for a second, if you don't mind. When people do these processes, no matter what you call them, what the FBI calls it, with the chaplain, but you call them as SISMs in our area and probably in the rest of the United States and Canada. Never mandate therapy, never mandate system, never mandate peer support. Why? Because that's a great way for people to shut it down and get worse in the long term. Sorry, I gotta have I had to put in my PSA. Yeah, too many people make it mandatory.

SPEAKER_02 12:49

You know what? One thing that Ben learned from talking to other TLs who'd been in deadly force encounters was so we had two guys who pulled the trigger. And here's all the legal issues that we definitely have pounded into us. Like, don't say anything to anybody, like you just shot, like this agent could be called on the stand against you. We knew it was gonna be a good shoot, so there was no question there, which probably lowered the threat level. But what Ben learned was guys who get in shootings are now ostracized. Hey man, don't talk to him, don't talk to him because you don't want to screw him later. But so Ben learns, like, well, we got to take care of mental health here. So he goes, You you're gonna shadow him, you you're gonna shadow him and just be around him. Just be around him. Hey, do you need anything? You know, whatever it might be, to make sure they're okay. You know, you're watching them if like, oh, is he breaking down? Which was not expected, but you don't know. You know, it it now we're just making sure there's a there's a buddy, a swim buddy with him. And that was smart. I think that made such a difference. And now I'm going to one of my friends who had pulled the trigger saying, uh, hey, you should definitely call your your wife. He's like, Yeah, I didn't even think of that. Like, you're so in the moment to say, this is gonna hit the news. I want you to hear it here. This happened. That was me. I'm safe, I'm doing well, I'm with good people. Let's make sure that we're setting ourselves up for the next few days.

SPEAKER_01 14:26

And let's not forget one important thing, too, is I again, not having been there, but I've been there in different types of situations. Let's not play down the fog that kicks in your mind. Yeah. Because you gotta do everything legally what needs to be done in order to, you know, whatever, if it ever goes to grand jury and shit. But more importantly, your mind is going into a fog because that was such a difficult situation to be in. And people are like, oh no, I was sharp. I'm like, no, you're you're sharp because you remember it differently.

SPEAKER_02 14:55

Yeah, the way you want to, right.

SPEAKER_01 14:57

But I think the fog is important to talk about because some guys have come in and told me that too. They're like, I was in a fog after that. Like, yeah, that's normal. Why your brain, like you, if you took someone's life, your brain doesn't want to really think about that. That's not fun to think about. So your brain's going, let's talk about anything but and let's put you in a fog because that's a good and I know people say it's crazy, but it's a good self-preservation thing. So I I know that you talked about some of the harder stuff that you faced.

The Darkest Things Search Warrants Reveal

SPEAKER_01 15:27

I want to shift gears to something maybe we'll use the word crazy or maybe like a unique or whatever, because you know I'm a mental health guy, I can't say crazy, I'm kidding, I don't care. But yeah, tell me a little bit about crazy stuff that you saw working in the FBI because that always is fun for people to hear.

SPEAKER_02 15:41

Oh, so when you have a search warrant and you have access to every corner of someone's house unexpected, and go through their phones, computers fully, there's so much you learn. And I got to see, and it was always sex. I mean, it's always sex-related stuff. It's it's so the craziest thing that I ever encountered was I'll give you, I'll give you the the broad view of this, and then you'll go, what the hell was the in intimate view of this? We we had a search warrant on a guy trading in child pornography, hit the door, go through. I'm searching his closet. Meanwhile, triangulated is guys are going through his phones, and he's sitting down for an interview, and understanding comes together at the same time as I'm going through a backpack, and there's rags, tape, plastic bags, rope. I'm like, this is this guy's go bag, this is where he takes to offend. And then I pull out a pair of men's severely soiled underwear, and I thought, okay, I don't know what that is. Guys are going through his phone and go, oh my gosh. And then he makes a confession that he is someone who receives pleasure from eating shit. And I mean, I know dogs do it, I don't know why. But like later I'm talking to him and he's like, Yeah, man, I got into pornography when I was 12, and I just kept going deeper and deeper down the path until I needed something more debased to find pleasure. And I start thinking that you know, growing up in a Christian home where I didn't have any of that. Then I learned later, which I'm sure you know, 12 is the average age now where boys are exposed to pornography. So I mean, so there was there was a latent chromosome trigger brain cell that when he got that, you know, it popped off like a puffball mushroom and now drove him to where others just go, yeah, I like that. That's fun. I'll go back to that occasionally. It drove him to a very, very dark place. So like there's there's stuff that you see where you go, I get why this is not out in the open. I I get why this is hidden under so much in your closet.

Sponsor Break Deemed Fit

SPEAKER_01 18:20

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SPEAKER_02 19:34

Yeah, I I assume so. The rest is pod match.

SPEAKER_01 19:40

You know, that we should put him in. I'll put him down as a as a sponsor and tell them they owe us some money. Exactly.

SPEAKER_02 19:46

Yeah. I don't know if we like uh following a story about a guy eating poop, but yeah.

SPEAKER_01 19:52

Hey, you don't choose the placeman we do. Thank you very much. That's that's right. That's right.

Interagency Work And A Wild Prank

SPEAKER_01 19:57

You know, one of the things that I find also fascinating is, you know, there's always these jokes about interagency fight, interfighting. I know it wasn't in some of the stuff we talked about prior to the interview. Just wanted to throw that out because you talk about, you know, the the the fun, the the crazy stuff that happens, but it's also like I I think that sometimes this perception that Homeland Security does not do what the FBI does and doesn't do what the CIA does and what doesn't NSA does and all that shit. But it's always like I don't know what it is, but they always tend to work together anyway.

SPEAKER_02 20:30

Yeah, yeah, and there's always crossovers. So I've been in cases, it's mainly like DEA and and FBI dope agents where you know you you butt heads on stuff. So there's gonna be occasions, but by and large, I mean especially at the agent to agent, the cop level, guys are just like, hey man, whatever it takes to take this guy down, like if we arrest him on your paper, I'm getting stats. My boss is glad. Like it doesn't matter. So we would find ways to I mean, almost always just support one another. FBI knows that local police, we can't do our job without them. So that image of us coming in, you know, kicking them off and saying we're taking charge doesn't happen. Like we're we're trying to find ways to like, hey, let's hold hands as we cross the finish line. We're gonna do this. And one instance we had, you know, I'd been working with IRS in the past, and so I had a good reputation with them working on financial cases. So going into national security, they came to me and said, Hey, would you mind being the affian on an affidavit for a search warrant? I said, No problem. They said we've got this case, but we don't want to look bad, so we'd like to put the FBI's name on it so it doesn't look so bad. And I said, easy. So amazing case where this blue collar guy in Toledo area falls down steps and dies after he had revealed. To his tenants in this duplex, that as a blue-collar guy, he'd been socking his money away. He had two million dollars saved. So he liked to drink, so homicide charges come, but that gets brushed away because they can't prove anything. And then out comes the will, which says, I leave all my money to my great tenants. And what had happened is these tenants, it was a boyfriend, girlfriend, and dude's father, tenant's father, Incorporated, hired a lawyer to mock up a will and backdate it to say this. So the reason the IRS found out about this is because the dad wasn't getting enough cut. So he's pissed off and went to the IRS, which is crazy to me because I don't know why you don't go to the FBI. Like, why is that an IRS thing? But he went to them, they work up the case, and now these people are in jail. But on the first search warrant, the IRS says, We forgot to pick up his ashes, his remains. So the ashes were in a literal Chinese takeout box. The defense is going to say, hey, he loved us, and we're going to show that's not how you respect someone that you had a great relationship with. So we get a search warrant, go back in, I get some of our evidence response guys, you know, help them out, find the ashes and get what they need. But since this was a significant case and about to go to trial, I knew the uh U.S. attorneys were going to stop by. And so I had prepared. And so when they rolled up, I had previously gone to my fireplace and scooped some ashes out into an Amazon box. And then I cut a hole in the corner. And so when they rolled up to say, How's it going, guys? I can't come out of the garage and I hold the box over my head and I say, I found it with ashes just spewing everywhere, and they'd go white. And that's how you that's how you work together federally.

SPEAKER_01 24:04

Well, I would have loved to be there for that one. I would I would have, I don't know if I would have been like as much as like scared or like, oh my god, what the hell's going on? versus like, oh my god, what the hell are you doing?

SPEAKER_02 24:16

I I I debated on this one because I like playing pranks, but I'm like, I don't know, man. Is this too far? And then oh screw it, let's let's do it. Let's do

Why Dark Humor Keeps People Going

SPEAKER_02 24:26

it.

SPEAKER_01 24:26

You know, the you know, I'm sorry for my another little thing that I love to talk about is for the type of jobs that you guys have, and even mine to a certain extent, dark humor is what makes us survive. Yes, people don't understand that they're like, oh, that's someone's remains, and you made fun. No, we didn't. It's just we need to survive the moment. Sometimes we gotta do that.

SPEAKER_02 24:49

The these guys killed someone and then tried to steal from his family. So uh I don't want to oversell it, but that's traumatic to have to deal with that. Like those things add up. And yes, I I was talking to a guy who's a firefighter, and he said they brought in a therapist to observe every shift. And he said they came to our shift and later said, you guys employ way too much dark humor, and that needs to stop. And I was just shocked. I'm like, no, what do you okay? All right, I guess we'll just self-harm then. Like, how are you supposed to get through things without you know telling stories and laughing about it? This is how agents deal with that. You tell stories of near-death experiences, and everybody laughs. You're like, hey, remember that time we almost all died, but then we didn't, and everybody's like, Oh my gosh, yes. And that's how you deal with it. You have to you have to laugh. You're like, this is a survivor story. We got through.

SPEAKER_01 25:51

And that's why I think it is so important that people don't understand that dark humor will sort of make us survive. If you stop laughing about your shit, that's more scary to me. Yeah. Someone who's laughing at really dark stuff. But that's my two cents.

SPEAKER_02 26:05

Yeah, just keep it quiet, make sure the public doesn't hear, because it it looks bad, they just won't understand.

SPEAKER_01 26:11

You know, how many times do I get to see the guy after he shuts down and doesn't make jokes anymore, and he's just there to do his job, and he and those guys are more scary about, you know, particularly, and again, not trying to put anything in particular, uh anyone in particular, but suicide's more concerning to me when I don't have dark humor. When I can make a dark joke and you laugh, I'm like, all right, he's not that far off. And I know the general population would be like, that's how that's absolutely a bit like bad. I'm like, y'all do it when the doors are closed, so shut the fuck up. Yeah, yeah. Just my two cents on that. Absolutely.

Finding Your Why Without Losing Family

SPEAKER_01 26:46

Um, let's shift gears because you know, one of the traditions I started with my last guest, and then I'm gonna go with you, is what question should I ask my ass, my next guest? So good news is you get to figure out the next question, but you got the first question, which was like, Oh my god, this is starting way too fucking deep. And the question was, What is your why? Why, you know, everything in your life and currently more particularly, because that's what I'm really interested in.

SPEAKER_02 27:14

Yeah, so my oldest kid graduated college a few years ago from the University of Michigan, and they have a series of speakers. One was one of the student leaders, and he said, Among other things, I'm gonna change the world. I'm gonna be someone who changes the world. And that struck me because no, you're not, and and I don't mean to be, I don't mean to be oppositional. I wouldn't say it to the kid, but no, you're not, and no, you shouldn't. Because people, if if you think back, and this might be a great book idea. Here we go. If you go back and look at the people who actually have changed the world, and let's say there's a hundred of them, those people ruined their families. You cannot change the world without abandoning everything else. And so, unless you're a single guy, single woman, you know, orphaned, no sisters, brothers, if you set out to change the world, you have abandoned the number one most important thing in your life, what you should be protecting and trying to nurture, and that's family. So I'll say this my why is it starts with my family, broadens to you know, beyond my family. Now we have coworkers. Yep, I care and I protect, and I and and now I'm doing great things. Like if I've gone beyond my family and and I'm bringing benefit to my coworkers, now I'm becoming more noble. And if I can impact my community, then that is so much beyond what is expected. You want me to get into the world? No. Run for politics. So, oh, I can be a governor. Okay, now you've abandoned your family, you've you put them second. So my why is taking care of that concentric circle that only goes so big.

SPEAKER_01 29:13

It's funny because right before we started recording, we talked about the courage to be this like. That's one of the messages, actually. Because setting out the change the world will never occur. Yeah. Because if you change the world, you're also changing your microcosm. And is that more important than changing the world?

SPEAKER_02 29:32

Yeah, you better have the cure for cancer or something that you know. I don't care if great job, Steve Jobs. You know, thanks for my iPhone, and your kid hates you. That that doesn't, that's not enough. In my book, that's not enough to have a cool iPad to say, well, my family is going to be ruined. So that's my why. Take care of the family.

SPEAKER_01 29:58

I was at a graduation not too long ago, and the person said, you know, when you're tired, just keep on pushing through. I'm like, that's terrible. I'm like, oh, you're a high school kid. I'm not gonna discourage you. Yeah, sure. Well, go ahead, but it ain't gonna work.

SPEAKER_02 30:12

Yeah. If you're tired, amphetamines.

SPEAKER_01 30:19

You know, that's that's what I do, that and a little cocaine, but anyway, that's just remade my heart rate to go to 179. Oh, wait, that was you. Uh how about you give me for my next guess, what is the question I should ask

The Smelliest Place Question For Guests

SPEAKER_01 30:33

them?

SPEAKER_02 30:33

Okay, so are you dealing mainly with uh first responders then?

SPEAKER_01 30:38

99.9% of the time.

SPEAKER_02 30:40

Okay, so this is this is a question I often if like, hey, there's a lull in the conversation. What's the smelliest place you've ever been? So I'm coming down from what is your why? Because like anybody who's been in houses, paramedics, cops, FBI agents, you've got a list in your head of like you just get done with a search warrant, you go, dude, that was the third worst. Like you'll say that. That was top 10 worst. Not worst, but top 10 worst.

SPEAKER_01 31:12

Because I used to do co-response with the police. As soon as you said that, I'm like, I got three, four.

SPEAKER_02 31:18

Yep. Absolutely, dude. There's ones where you're like, Yeah, I remember when I had to throw away my gloves afterwards. Yeah, yep, yeah. Oh no, there was a time where two guys just couldn't make it, like they couldn't go in that room. Or, dude, we've been so many houses where you go, like, we're looking in the corner and going, I can't see in the closet, but I'm not going in there. Like, either that or I'm spending the day getting dog shit out of the lugs of my boots, you know. Um we're gonna call that room clear.

SPEAKER_01 31:50

Well, you know, I joke around as there's one time this is I'll save the details, but I got home and we have a mud room. I took all my clothes, walked out and my underwear to put it into garbage right away. And I'm like, fuck, I'm a civilian, I can't even charge for a uniform.

SPEAKER_02 32:05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 32:06

Oh gosh. So anyway, that's why you when you said that, I'm like, that's probably the worst.

SPEAKER_02 32:11

But the the number of times we'd hit breakfast after a search at like a pedophile's house, and I was sitting next to a task force officer, and she, you know, like many people do, puts her napkin on her lap, and I go, Hey Janet, you're gonna wipe your mouth with that napkin that's on your pants that was in that house we came from. She's like, I'm gonna get another napkin. Like, you need a separate one. This is for the pants, this one's for the for the mouth.

SPEAKER_01 32:40

Well, and I'm gonna bring that up. I'm a hundred percent sure people will have great stories on that. Yes.

Irreverend Book Preview And Where To Follow

SPEAKER_01 32:46

But you know, before we go, I need to know more about Irreverend because this is a looks like a great book. Would love to uh share it with my audience. So tell me a little bit about it.

SPEAKER_02 32:54

It's a space love story. Uh I so I wrote a memoir of my time going from a Baptist pastor to spending 24 years in the FBI. It's called Irreverend from Saving Souls to Chasing Sinners in the FBI, comes out in October. And for me, I look back, I when I was accepted in the FBI, I I was just looking in my library to a book on the history of the FBI I bought before I got in because I was amazed. Like this, what? I get to do this, this is awesome. And even though there are plenty of frustrating and aggravating times, boring times in the bureau, if if you go through and you pull this out and go, let me tell you the condensed version of this, that's amazing. Here's the next one. Are you kidding me? Oh my gosh, here's this. And I I always had that fascination, even in the FBI, of I really got to do this. Who would have thought? So, I mean, it's a story of what anybody might be able to do. And if I pull out my phone and called up a buddy and said, Hey, tell me an amazing story, he'd go, All right. And there you go. Because everyone has one. So I was just a regular FBI agent. 24 years I didn't move up and didn't do special things because being a field agent was awesome. Being on SWAT was all I wanted. That's just this is enough. This is what's fulfilling. So so I do here's case, here's a case, here's a case, and then I finish every chapter with an after-action review where I go in and say, This is why this worked, this is how we almost screwed it up, here's a little bit more of that story, or another one that's like it, to just kind of add into it. And it's all throughout of how this runs. Then my wife finishes with the penultimate chapter saying this is what it was like for a pastor's wife to now transition to be an FBI agent's wife. And I and I do an after action of what she had to say of, you know, yeah, that was uh my perspective on you know what she dealt with too. So wife went from you know, those first years of some something completely new to texting me in Chicago, let me know when you're safe, to years later, I've been doing SWAT for a long time, and I say, uh, hey, we got an operation coming up on Tuesday. She says, Okay, I'll put it on the calendar. And I go, Well, the guy's kind of dangerous. She's like, Yeah, yeah. He told an informant he wouldn't be taken alive, and she's like, I told you I'd put it in the calendar. What do you want me to do? You know, and so you, you know, so this is how she changed too of like, I'm so worried you're gonna be killed to come home every time. This guy knows what he's doing, you know, everything's casual.

SPEAKER_01 35:52

All right, well, I guess we'll we'll we'll have takeout on that day instead of making food. Yep, yep. No, I and so you said it's coming out in October?

SPEAKER_02 36:00

Coming out in October, my wife's company that have been promoting authors for 14 years. Recently, they they got to put their heads together and say, well, why are we pushing these authors to hybrid publishers? We could publish, you know, let's do that ourselves. So I am the third book that will be published. The books right now still in the hands of the FBI to review and make sure I don't share state secrets, which I I don't, but I do tell I do tell a lot of other things. Much like we got to share here. If you ask me something crazy, I have an entire chapter on how I've made men shit themselves. So I don't know if that sells more books, but I'm gonna promote that anyway.

SPEAKER_01 36:43

Well, I think that it will like with my crowd anyway. Oh shit, really? Great. Awesome. They'll want to they'll want to uh re uh replicate it as much as they can.

SPEAKER_02 36:54

So absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 36:56

Uh is it available on pre-sale yet?

SPEAKER_02 36:59

Uh not yet. So, I mean, we haven't even gotten it back. The company weaving influence publishers is like, hey, let's not typeset until we get that okay. I'm letting them know like the bureau's gonna okay it. They just there's nothing in there that's uh that's off. But for pre-sale, when that time comes, and if folks want to follow along of the progress, they can go to my website, which is preacher to breacher.com.

SPEAKER_01 37:27

Preacher to breacher.com. I will put that in the show notes, and when this comes out, hopefully maybe you'll even have a pre-sale thing, and I will definitely make sure to link that too. You know, you know, I've I've always I always enjoy talking to people, but you know, one of the things that I hope I I I could I can say that people will know on listening to this is I love one hell of a good conversation. This was a great conversation, so thank you. I really appreciate it. I don't do well with people who just want to get their shit out and in a certain way. So really appreciate a conversation.

SPEAKER_02 38:01

Absolutely. And and I I've enjoyed so many of the shows I've been on, but the guys who know, that's nice. Like, you know, we know when I can go like when I say have your guys tell the stinkiest place they've been in, you know.

SPEAKER_01 38:16

Right away. I had like that's not three or four right away in my head.

SPEAKER_02 38:18

You're like, that's not a weird question. That's a legitimate question. So I like that. Thanks.

SPEAKER_01 38:23

So well, I really appreciate your time and can't wait for your for your book to come out, and I will definitely be reading it, and I hope my listeners will go listen to it. And thank you, Eric. Thanks so much, Steve. And I will say to my audience, this is always the takeaway from Dr. uh from Dr. Dre, and hope you join us for the next episode. So back to you later.

Wrap Up Reviews And 988 Reminder

SPEAKER_00 38:48

Please like, subscribe, and follow this podcast on your favorite platform. A glowing review is always helpful. And as a reminder, this podcast is for informational, educational, and entertainment purposes only. If you're struggling with a mental health or substance abuse issue, please reach out to a professional counselor for consultation. If you are in a mental health crisis, call 988 for assistance. This number is available in the United States and Canada.