Resilience Grows When We Stop Treating People Like Problems

If you’ve ever wondered why some calls escalate fast while others calm down in minutes, the answer usually isn’t “more force” or “better scripts.” It’s the human skill that gets trained the least and judged the most: how we talk to people when they’re at their worst.

I’m joined by Liana Lucine, a former Metropolitan Police officer in London with 18 years on the job and deep experience as a police trainer. We get honest about what frontline policing looks like beyond the clichés, including her time working vice and dealing with street prostitution tied to crack and heroin addiction. That opens a bigger conversation about harm reduction, diversion, and why rehab can’t be a standalone fix if someone goes back to the same environment without housing, support, or safe relationships.

From there, we dig into the internal pressures that wear officers down: constant criticism, endless paperwork, lack of resources, and the quiet damage of feeling unsupported by leadership. Liana shares why she sees this in the training rooms and why many officers are so guarded they expect to be told off before they’re taught anything. We also break down de-escalation and why listening often works better than dominating, especially when someone is in crisis and you need compliance without a fight.

We close with a reset on resilience. It isn’t a badge you earn once. It’s situational, learnable, and easier to build when we don’t turn our job or our diagnosis into our entire identity. If you want practical ideas for first responder mental health, police communication skills, and resilience training that actually fits real life, hit play, subscribe, share this with a teammate, and leave a review so more people can find the show.

Buy her book at https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0GZDWFTG8?lv=shuf&channelId=500&plpRedirect=mhFallback

You can find her on her website at https://lucinetraining.co.uk or 

YouTube at https://www.youtube.com/@LucineTraining 

and on Instagram at  https://www.instagram.com/lucinetraining/

Transcript

Show Purpose And Audience

SPEAKER_01 0:01

Welcome to Resilience Development in Action with Steve Bisson. This is the podcast dedicated to first responder mental health, helping police, fire, EMS, dispatchers, and paramedics create better growth environments for themselves and their teams. Let's get started.

Meet A Former UK Police Officer

SPEAKER_00 0:29

Well, hi everyone, and welcome to Resilience Development in Action. I'm so happy that I met someone through again Hot Match was great help. And you know, sometimes it's hard to find good guests. But you know, I read her bio, she read mine apparently, and she's like, well, I'll still talk to him. But, you know, Liana Lucene. That's right. All right. Uh my French wants to say it even differently, but I'm trying to be as American as I possibly can here, is a former police officer in the UK and has a ton of experience. But I, you know, like when I read her bio, I'm like, oh, she's gonna be perfect for this type of podcast. But before I go on and on about her, let's say hi to Liana. Welcome to Resilience Development in Action.

SPEAKER_02 1:11

Hello, it's very good to be here. Thank you very much for having me on.

SPEAKER_00 1:16

It's funny because I've had, I want to say, like in the last year, I've had three to four either former police officers, EMT paramedics from the UK. Okay. So it's been very interesting to hear about the experience, yet, you know, being over the pond, so to speak, and being very similar to what police officers and first responders here in the North America. I being Canadian myself, I talk about North America, have been gone going through. But anyway, so very happy to have you on. But I can go on and on about what I read in your bio and the questions I have, which is already set up anyway. So, how about you introduce yourself to my audience?

SPEAKER_02 1:55

Okay. As you said, I was a police officer in the Met in uh London in the UK for about 18 years. I left in 2019, so I've been out now for about seven years. Whilst I was in the Met, I did various different roles. Um I took emergency calls. That's how we start in the UK, as I'm sure you know. And then after that, I did various roles. Like, for example, I worked in safer neighborhoods, so being a local police officer. I also worked on the vice squad with prostitution, and also I became qualified as a trainer. And that's really what I sort of fell in love with was being a trainer. So I started by training recruits, and then I went on to train specialist units. And when I left the Mets, I stayed in training. So I've been in training design, training, delivery, training management for the last seven years in the private sector.

SPEAKER_00 2:40

Well, I think that there's so many questions that just come from that introduction because you know, vice squad deciding to go prostitution sounds the right way. What made you decide to go there? That's the first question I came to mind. I'm like, oh, we'd like to go of all of all the ones you could choose, you chose that one. So just isn't

Working Vice And Street Prostitution

SPEAKER_00 2:59

why you chose that.

SPEAKER_02 2:59

You know, yeah, no, that's interesting because I was in sort of safer neighborhoods, which is your local police officer. That's what I did at the time. And I just wanted to change, one of something different. So I went to a different borough in London. Policing is split up into different boroughs. So I went to a particularly tough borough known as Lambeth. And on Vice, we just dealt with street prostitution. There's lots of different types of prostitution, and there's prostitutes who work in brothels, and they might do that voluntarily, even though it's illegal. There are the ones who work hotels. There is prostitution in trafficking where it's very much uh non-consensual, and often a lot of terrible things happen to those prostitutes. The prostitution I was dealing with was on the street. So 99% of these girls and women chose to do this because they were feeding a drug habit. So most of them were on crack or heroin, and it was the only thing they could do to feed that habit. What was really interesting when I asked them why, you know, okay, if you're gonna pay for it, you could steal, you could do anything, commit any crime, why this one? And what they said was, well, look, Liana, if I go into the supermarket and I steal from there every day, eventually I'm gonna end up in prison. If you commit that crime enough times, that's it, you're going inside. But with prostitution, the way we deal with it in the UK is that more often than than not, they would get a drug rehabilitation order, or they may get some other order, but they wouldn't end up going to prison. So that was the reason they chose to commit that offense, and it was all about drugs for them. So that interested me. And you know, all of the ones I met, they were actually lovely people. It was very tragic stories, all a very, very vulnerable group. Uh, and there's a conversation really, I think, to be had in general around whether prostitution should be legalized, like, say, for example, it is in the Netherlands, in order to protect these girls and women.

SPEAKER_00 4:43

Well, I think that that's where, you know, what I find fascinating talking to European police officers and first responders in general. There is a different type. I mean, I I my friend is from the Netherlands, and we talked about the legalization of prostitution. I remember in the 80s, legalizing marijuana was like, oh my God, really? At the time. And now it's become fairly common across, you know, the the westernized cultures anyway. But the drug rehab is a very interesting one. One of the things that I I love about I've never interviewed someone from Spain, but I would love to talk to them because they've legalized just about everything. And if you get caught acting up or what have you, now you go to treatment, you don't go to jail. And they found a lot of success. The stats show success. Obviously, I want to talk to someone boots on the ground, so to speak, before I say, yes, it's a success.

Why Rehab Alone Is Not Enough

SPEAKER_00 5:34

Did you find that it was successful when you did those things things and got people into treatment for drug rehab and stuff like that?

SPEAKER_02 5:41

As you know, I mean, dealing with drug addiction is one of life's hardest battles, I think, for anyone in it. It's very difficult indeed. And the the trouble is also, if you uh even if you overcome that addiction, when you come out, what have you got? If you don't have a support system, support network around you, you don't have your own home, you don't have a job, you don't have friends, family who who are there. Everyone else around you is still taking drugs, doing drugs, still involved in crime. It's incredibly difficult to change your life, to change your behavior. So I think with the best will in the world, it needs to be more than just a drug rehabilitation program that we provide.

SPEAKER_00 6:18

I mean, you're you're talking to a treater. I've never actually served as a first responder. People know on my podcast that I never try to take anyone's, I've never done that. But I've done the treatment. And sometimes I've people ask me, well, how come they went to rehab and they're not feeling so much better? I'm like, well, it's because you're putting a band-aid on a bullet hole. Because everyone who has abandoned them before not suddenly, oh, you went to rehab, we love you, and now we're gonna get you back to where you were. Oh, your finances suddenly went up by five thousand dollars or five thousand pounds, depending on where you're at, or euros, I guess. But I think that that's the the whole thing is that rehab is one thing, getting them the resources to succeed 30, 60 days down the road is still not happening. I'm assuming it's the same out in London in the UK.

SPEAKER_02 7:06

Yeah, definitely, definitely. So it's a much sort of bigger problem, really, uh, like you say, than just you know, clearing the addiction. You need so much more than that.

SPEAKER_00 7:14

I think that the getting rid of the addiction is one thing, making a person feel better about themselves. I know that's even rougher. And then telling themselves that they don't need to do the shit no more is even harder because what I what people don't understand, they sorry to go into drugs here, but I think it's important when we work with first responders. I think they all know it, but sometimes they forget. No one goes and says, you know what, today I'm gonna start a good opioid addiction. I think today's the day I really want to do that, or alcohol or what have you. No one wakes up and says that. And then it happens, and then we the families the min like for re for better or for worse, and for justification or not, depending on the person, there's a reason why the families kind of like shun them. But I think that sometimes, even as a mental health counselor, substance abuse counselor, and as well as the first responder world, correct me if I'm wrong, we kind of like, oh, what effort are they really making? We go to that default, unfortunately, I think in our mind. I know for me, it's reminding myself that every time I go, oh, I gotta go, Steve, stop, think, because that's just like exhaustion or what have you. How do we explain?

Blame, Sympathy, And What Media Misses

SPEAKER_00 8:26

I know that it's hard sometimes to tell other police officer, look, listen, this person did not choose prostitution. This person did not choose to be doing drugs or whatever. How do we keep that in mind? Because I think that sometimes even as officers and first responders in general, we tend to forget about that.

SPEAKER_02 8:42

Well, we do, and I think the trouble is we just uh believe everything that we see in films and on TV when you've got no other source, no other reference. Well, you you you're gonna believe it whether you're conscious of it or not. So I think sometimes you know more education, you know, putting it into some training, having conversations about this, it really sort of helped change the image that people have in their minds. And yeah, I think it's very easy to to blame people for what happens to them because you know it's much, much harder to have sympathy, isn't it? And to think we need to change something for them, with them, and help them. It's easier to think, well, it's their fault, then we can brush them off, and I don't need to do anything if it's their fault.

SPEAKER_00 9:22

And I think that that's the the blame game plays a factor. I also think the sweeping under the rug proof works really well too. Um, you know, Johnny's uh and Gene or whoever are have decided to do that. I don't need to deal with them until they start bothering the community or what have you. And that's a great way to just rush it and not pay attention to it. I think that plays a factor too. I mean, you can correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm assuming it's yeah, I agree.

SPEAKER_02 9:46

No, I agree, absolutely. I mean, I appreciate that we can't solve every problem individually as people, and we sort of pick and choose what we can and can't solve. And I certainly appreciate that we are all we all have limits, etc. But somebody needs to stand up and and address these issues, don't they? So that's what we need.

SPEAKER_00 10:05

And I'm sure that besides, you know, do doing the prostitution things, I mean, I'm sure that in your 18 years, you saw a lot of different things in the in the streets, whether it's like the trauma, the the pressure of the job, how other people have dealt with their own issues and domestic violence and another place where we blame the victim very often. Why didn't you leave? Oh, yeah, she didn't think about that, or he didn't think about that. When you deal with that much, how did that shape your understanding of human beings when you deal with all that trauma and the pressure and every everyone? And sometimes you know the good stories too, they feel good stories. We all have those.

SPEAKER_02 10:43

Yeah, I think it doesn't, again, it doesn't look like how you see it on TV. I think there's a much greater variety. I think one of the biggest mistakes that media makes is they always stick to the same cliche. So, for example, if you look at domestic abuse, they always choose a very big, nasty-looking male character who's beating up, you know, you know, very lovely, you know, sympathetic female character. And they make the characters very black and white, don't they? I don't mean that as in ethnicity. I mean they keep the characters very two-dimensional.

SPEAKER_00 11:12

We're not that DC on my podcast. Go ahead.

unknown 11:14

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 11:14

But yeah, but they just make them very two-dimensional. This person is incredibly good, this person is incredibly bad. And I just found in my experience as a police officer, life really isn't like that. I dealt with many domestic incidents where they were both as bad as each other, both beating each other up, both completely horrendous. I dealt with same-sex couples, I dealt with couples where the victim, sorry, where the victim was a male and the abuser was a female, etc. There was such so much more variety in what I saw and what I dealt with than what people actually know and understand. And it's not their fault, because how would you know unless you were dealing with it? You're just going to see what you read in books and what you see on the tele.

SPEAKER_00 11:53

Well, I think that that's the other problem. Correct me if I'm wrong. You talk about the what you see on the tele, but it's also kind of like what we don't know is because you know, what I my experience with police officers across the board, and I've talked to people outside of the westernized culture. I think my favorite statement is you see 5% of the world that 95% of population doesn't know about. And I think that that's a good way to explain that stuff that, you know, like, you know, if uh if I if I told you this number of times I've heard male, female on male violence and uh domestic violence, people are like, no, that's crazy. That doesn't, yeah, it's because it doesn't fit your criteria, it doesn't fit your little narrow box. That's right. I think that that's what you're talking about when you talk about the understanding of what's going on in the community. Tell me if I'm wrong.

SPEAKER_02 12:43

Yeah, absolutely. I think in policing you see the worst of people, and you do sometimes see the best of them as well when they all sort of pile in and help out when there's sort of a tragedy, an accident, people come out of their houses to help. But you really do very sadly see a lot of the worst of you know humans all the time. Uh that can sort of get to you after a while, it can give you quite a jaded view of the world. Uh so sometimes you need to sort of change role within policing, uh, just to give yourself a break, I think. But I'm not so sure it's the reason that police officers leave, certainly not all the ones I've

Why Officers Really Leave The Job

SPEAKER_02 13:14

known. Uh it's not because of the calls they go to or the experiences they've had. Usually the reason police officers leave, certainly in the Mets, the UK, is because there's just not enough. So there's massive pressure, there's not enough resources, not enough officers, there's far too much paperwork. There's more paperwork now than there ever has been. And also they're not always treated very well internally by senior management.

SPEAKER_00 13:38

You we can go on and on about that. You can choose wherever you want because administrative betrayal and is probably what people misunderstand the most. I'm actually reading a book on that. I mean, there's 20 books on it, obviously. But it it talks about how our leadership, whether it's in the US, Canada, Europe, even Japan, I was reading something in Australia also. Our leadership is everything's hunky-dory. Let's put a video out of a guy with in squat taking away the bad drug dealer, and this is what policing is all about. And you're like, yeah, no, that's not at all what policing is all about. I mean, community policing gets a bad rap, but I think that's 90% of what you end up doing. Correct me if I'm wrong, but then the administration does not pay attention to the other stuff that's going well, they pay attention to what's going bad, and they decide to find ways to point fingers. I mean, that's my experience.

SPEAKER_02 14:34

Yeah, absolutely. There's a lot of criticism uh all the time. When I used to train uh response officers, every time I'd walk into a room, you could see them all sat there with their arms folded because they were just waiting to be criticized and told off because that's all they ever received. They never got it well done, they never got sort of, you know, the help and support that they were sort of looking for and needing. They were just constantly criticized. So for me as a trainer, that was one of the first things I had to do, really, was to assure them that I'm on their side. I'm one of their colleagues, I'm there to listen. And without sounding patronizing, actually, it was a many amazing how many of my training sessions ended up being quite therapeutic just because I allowed people to just speak and just to vent, because they didn't always get that chance to just say what was wrong and what was, you know, what was really getting to them.

Sponsor Break Deemed Fit

SPEAKER_00 15:26

Just a quick break, guys. I'm gonna talk about a new product that I really like. I actually bought one of their hoodies, it was amazing, and I really enjoyed wearing it. Uh, it this episode is gonna be supported by Deemed Fit. Deemed Fit is a first responder-owned activewear and a leisure brand. And one thing that I genuinely like about them is that they support different causes. I actually gave a few people I know who work with first responders and our nonprofits their name to uh Deemed Fit, and I know they're talking to them. They do a lot of initiatives and collections that are based on mental health for first responders. And if you go there right now and you buy anything, including the mental health support stuff, use the code R D A15. That's right, R D A 15, to get 15% off on any products that you get. Again, it's called R D A 15. Go to deanfit.com, D-E-E, M E D F I T.com, and enjoy 15% off at checkout to save. Now, right back to the episode.

De-Escalation Starts With Listening

SPEAKER_00 16:26

So you actually listened to the people you were training? What is wrong with you?

SPEAKER_02 16:31

And heaven forbid. But yeah, I mean, and that's I think what every human being needs, isn't it? And you you know that as a police officer, I think one thing I used to see some police officers doing wrong, and I used to train my recruits not to, was when they were dealing with somebody in distress, whether they were raging or panicking or screaming, crying, whatever they were doing, is to stop talking at them and actually listen to them, to ask them what was wrong. So many times I'd see somebody in this situation, and you may maybe they were waving a knife around, but they were at a safe distance. There was no one else there. And police officers would turn up and start screaming at them, put that knife down, put that screaming because there's this theory that you should dominate somebody in order to really very rarely works. We don't have guns in the UK, so it's a whole different tactic that you're really looking at. And so many times I think just stop shouting at them, just talk to them. There's a reason they're this angry, there's a reason they're this upset, just hear them first and foremost. That's what we all want as people. We want somebody to listen to us and to recognize why we are so upset.

SPEAKER_00 17:40

So I guess I mean, you know, obviously what brings what that brings to mind is why don't we have more, we call them FTOs around here for if a field training officers, I don't know what they call them out in the UK. Why aren't we explaining that part to them? Because I think that to me that's the biggest like what you just said makes perfect sense to me as a health counselor, anyway.

SPEAKER_02 18:01

Yeah.

Training Styles That Create Better Cops

SPEAKER_02 18:02

I think sometimes it's personal style. So I worked in training for a number of years and worked with, you know, up to a hundred other trainers. And it does come down to individual style. For example, uh, I would have colleagues and they would just teach all recruits to just handcuff everybody, regardless, no matter who they are, no matter what they've done, what the situation just handcuff them. And of course, the time somebody's most likely to kick off is when you lay hands on or you start handcuffing. And they'd always teach them to shout at everybody, nick everybody, almost in this robotic fashion without thinking at all. And I remember sometimes stepping in to teach other people's classes, and it was incredible how many recruits would come up to me and say, Oh wow, this is so great. You're actually teaching me a different way to be a police officer. You're giving me a choice because I wouldn't say you must do it my way. I would just teach them, well, this is how I talk to people. This is how I control a situation without being a bully, without dominating, without screaming, without shouting. And I'm not saying it's right for every situation, of course not. But I think you have to give officers every single tool in the box, and the most important is communication skills.

SPEAKER_00 19:10

I agree a hundred percent. And I think the other part too is realizing that it's not only about like communication tools, it's here's how I'd say it, but deliver don't deliver it like I do, deliver it the way you want. You know, half the time in therapy, if I can't obviously give you my clients' names, but my clients always say, like, you always say that, say it the way I want. Like, because yeah, my way is not the best way for everyone. My way as a therapist, as I've been a human being and everything else for like the last 50 years, give or take. This is how I communicate, and that's what people expect of me. If you're different than me, then you gotta expect to give them that stuff, and that will be your way of doing it. I think that yeah, that's the same thing for police, right? I mean, I mean I'm not crazy, right?

SPEAKER_02 19:55

No, absolutely right, absolutely right. And I think we've all learned as we live on the planet how we come across to other people. And if I say something and you say something, people are gonna receive it quite differently, just first and foremost, because we look different and we sound different, just being different genders, different ages, different bills, all these sorts of things factor into how people receive that message. So you're absolutely right. Somebody has to think, well, how am I gonna say this? What's gonna work for me? And what's gonna work for the other person, you know, how's the chemistry going to be, etc.? So yeah, and I think, but that's what these recruits were grateful for was it was an alternative, you know, because some trainers were teaching them, you've got to, you know, shout at everybody, dominate everybody.

SPEAKER_00 20:37

No, and I think that that's the other part too, is funny. Culturally, I think about it, it's funny because as I grow older, I've been in the US now for 27 years, give or take. One of the things that people say about me, you're just direct and to the point, you don't play around. I'm like, well, that's how Quebecers are. That's how I grew up in Quebec. You know, like I can have the biggest disagreement with my friends or family members, the next day it's over. And I find uh, you know, I was in Ireland not too long ago, and I know the UK is different. Do not get me wrong. I don't want to get this hate mail from people out on the other side of the pond. But you know, one of the things that I admire about Europeans is they're direct, they're not gonna flowery. You know what Liana, I think that it now, you know, like hey Liana, you just mentioned about what you did to train people. You're direct and to the point. I think that you talk about gender. I also think communication styles are important too. And realizing that people from different cultures, different places, you know, within within even the countries, you know, the people from a different country will communicate differently.

Culture, Communication, And Bespoke Training

SPEAKER_00 21:40

I think that that plays a huge factor. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 21:43

Yeah, no, I I totally agree. And it's certainly something for me as a trainer, I've had to consider every time I'm training a different audience is how am I going to put it across? How are they going to hear it? What's going to work for them? Because different things will work for different people, exactly like you've said. So it's it's about adapting. Isn't it knowing who you're speaking to? And I think sometimes that's why I think a lot of people get really frustrated with off-the-shelf training courses because they sat there thinking, well, what has this got to do with me or the job that I do? This isn't relevant, this isn't particular to me. And that's why people want bespoke training. It's why people like therapy because it is about them as a person and it's all completely relevant.

SPEAKER_00 22:22

That's another thing that bothers me the most, you know, and I'm not going to name a town that really exists. We'll call it Lennoxville, Massachusetts. There's no such town. We got you the app com for you to help you with your mental health. You should be good. Really? You think that's gonna work with half your department, or not even a quarter of your department? I mean, this is crazy. I think we've we've created a lot of like these blanket statements and just trying to fix everything, which just doesn't work. Like these, oh, go on go on the web and watch, you know, Liana teach you something, but Liana doesn't know your style in Massachusetts and how different it is in Oregon or Texas or Scotland. I mean, I'm not trying to pick on any particular country or state. Uh I think that that's what we forget. Uh that's maybe leads me more to the conversation about resilience.

What Resilience Actually Means

SPEAKER_00 23:11

Because we yeah, resilience development in action, we talk about that. I think that how do we teach resilience to our officers, to our colleagues, not because you're superior, not because you're a sergeant lieutenant, but just because you're human to human. How do we create that resilience among them?

SPEAKER_02 23:27

I think first and foremost, we have to understand what it is. I think there's a lot of misunderstanding about resilience. People think you are a resilient person full stop, meaning you can cope with everything. But actually, a lot of research, especially this guy George Bonanno, who I absolutely love, I think he's fantastic on this subject. He talks about actually you can become very resilient with particular situations, but it's not with everything. So, for example, if you've dealt with this before and something similar comes up, you'll be quite good at dealing with it. But if something brand new comes up, you can be absolutely flawed. And that's sometimes what we forget. You know, as we get older, we feel, oh, I'm getting really good at this, I'm a really confident person, I'm so good at coping with everything. And we can almost be shocked when something happens and we just absolutely are completely lost and don't know what to do because it's something new. We've never done it. And I think the other second thing which people don't recognize, again, which I've got from George Bonanno, is that we're actually much more resilient as you know, race, humans, than we really think. And this is also what worries me recently when we talk about mental health a lot on social media and in schools, which I think is wonderful. But what we can be doing is we can be teaching people to be victims and we're not teaching them to cope. So we keep saying, here you go, here's a lovely label for you. Now you can say, Well, I can't do this and I can't do that because of whatever X, Y, or Z that is wrong with me. Instead of saying, Well, okay, you may have this, but here's how you cope with it. Here's how you lead a full and effective and joyful life, even though you know you have this.

SPEAKER_00 25:00

I think that that's the other part about social media, and we've done a lot of education, which is really helping. I'm I think we need to put mental health in the forefront because that's as important as physical health, don't get me wrong. But once you become your diagnosis, don't get me started on that shit. Yeah, when when people tell me, you know, well, you know, I that's my trauma response, but what the fuck are you doing about your trauma response? Is that gonna be your excuse to be an asshole all the time? What's going on here? And people are like, wow, that's not nice from a therapist standpoint. Like, but it's the reality, right? You know, I would I I I think that that's what you're talking about.

SPEAKER_02 25:34

I mean, correct me if I'm yes, no, that's exactly it. And I think, you know, it we can use it as an excuse to not work on ourselves and to not be responsible for bad behavior. You know, we can't keep using things as an excuse. It might be a reason why you're behaving that way, but it's not an excuse and it's not okay. And you should be doing something about it. And I think, you know, we only have one life. Do you really want to miss out on so many things or be happy or have successful relationships because, you know, you want to have this label, you know, that this you know, something wrong with you.

SPEAKER_00 26:08

And it's not only that, it's like, oh, hear how unique I am. And I think the other you you know, chronic uniqueness is rampant in the first responder world. Yes, I call you all out. And I know I'm not one of you, but I don't care. I'm gonna call you all out. We're not all that fucking unique. I think that that's the other factor that people are like, oh, I have ADHD with autism. I'm like, whoopee, other people do, and that doesn't make you special. I've got depression and trauma, that doesn't make me special either. Just happens to be a diagnosis I have. I also have asthma. I don't remember mentioning that in my social media to make myself feel better.

SPEAKER_02 26:44

Yeah. And whilst I think it's good to accept all these things that we're dealing with, it is that how you want to identify yourself? Is that the most important thing about you that you want people to know first and foremost that you have anxiety or you have ADHD? You might be so many other things. You might be a father, you might be a mother, you might be, you know, good at good at chess, or you might be good at this and baseball. It's like really, why why are you putting that first and foremost? Why is that the first thing that you say and why is it the loudest thing?

SPEAKER_00 27:14

Well, I've been known for years to say something you're special, just like everyone else. And I think that takes away from that belief system, in my opinion, of like how chronic uniqueness is just like, yeah, okay, whoopee.

You Are More Than Your Role

SPEAKER_00 27:30

I mean, it's not how you talk about how you don't want to be remembered. The first thing that came to mind is in the first responder world, we become a police officer, we become a sheriff's department person, we become whatever job we have, and that becomes our identity. Well, I tell people like that's the biggest problem, also in the first responder world. I happen to be a mental health counselor, but I'm also a dad, you know. I'm a I'm a son, I'm a cousin, I'm a podcast hoax. I have a lot of roles in life. I'm just not one thing. And I think that in the police, I police fire, emt, paramedic, dispatch, correction. I'm I can go on and on. Your role becomes more important than you, and that's where we go wrong, just like your diagnosis being more important.

SPEAKER_02 28:14

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And it's important to be a whole person, isn't it? And I think sometimes, you know, I would see in policing that people would get so involved in the role they would forget to be a human being to another human being who was in crisis and who needed them just to talk and to relate, etc. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 28:32

I think that the one thing that I remember from years ago, one of my paramedics firefighters I work with said, the days I get annoyed with people, I remind myself, if that was my uncle, aunt, you know, niece, nephew, grandmother, grandfather, would I want them to be treated the way I'm treating them? No, fuck, I gotta change that right away. And I think it's that sh slight reminder that we all need we need to be treated as we want to be treated. And I think that helps a lot too. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 29:02

Yeah, absolutely. And I think, you know, there's a lot of young people who join policing, which is which is great. But I used to be really interested when there was somebody maybe in their 40s who signed up as a recruit because I thought, you know, okay, this person might have a lot of great experience and confidence and calm to bring to the role, which I think is incredibly valuable.

SPEAKER_00 29:22

I agree. I I joked around with someone recently who was saying they're having trouble finding paramedics in their town. Like, I mean, I'm I have no medical training per se, I just a mental health counselor. I'm gonna learn. He's like, you'd bring so much more like humanness to it, that would be amazing. And I'm like, whoa, that's a lot of pressure. I don't have to do that. Well, you know, we're getting close to the first half hour here.

Part Two Tease And Closing Notes

SPEAKER_00 29:46

Do you want to stick around for another half hour? I've got still a bunch of questions I'd love to do.

SPEAKER_02 29:50

Absolutely, I'd love to.

SPEAKER_00 29:52

Well, for those of you who are finishing up the this episode, you will join us for heart two next next episode, which is going to be out soon. And I thank you for your time and thank you for coming on, Liana. I appreciate it.

SPEAKER_01 30:05

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