Stop Saying Suck It Up Buttercup

The fastest way to miss someone in pain is to only believe the “approved” version of distress. We sit down with Liana Lucine, a former UK London Met police officer and trainer, to unpack how stereotypes shape everything from mental health calls to workplace culture and even how we label victims. When anxiety, depression, grief, or trauma don’t match the mental picture we expect, the response can turn into dismissal, jokes, or silence and that’s where risk grows for first responders and the people we serve. 

We talk about how depression can look different across genders, why anger and outbursts can be a red flag, and why trauma sometimes shows up as numbness or a blank face rather than tears. Liana shares insight from seeing victims navigate high-pressure environments, and we connect that to common coping tools like dissociation and memory gaps. We also get into the hard truth about recovery: timing matters. Mandatory debriefs or forced “early therapy” may feel supportive on paper, but they can remove choice and backfire when someone isn’t ready. 

From EMDR to peer support to flexible options that respect autonomy, we make the case for systems that protect organizations without sacrificing the individual. We also spotlight Liana’s work on male victims of sexual assault and harassment, the stigma that keeps men quiet, and how gendered language in training can harm everyone by boxing people into roles they never chose. If you care about first responder mental health, PTSD prevention, and better leadership, this conversation offers a clear next step: slow down, challenge the assumption, and ask one more honest question. 

Subscribe, share this with a coworker, and leave a review so more first responders can find practical, human support when it counts.

Buy her book at https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0GZDWFTG8?lv=shuf&channelId=500&plpRedirect=mhFallback

You can find her on her website at https://lucinetraining.co.uk or 

YouTube at https://www.youtube.com/@LucineTraining 

and on Instagram at  https://www.instagram.com/lucinetraining/

Transcript

Welcome And Why Distress Matters

SPEAKER_00 0:01

Welcome to Resilience Development in Action with Steve Bisson. This is the podcast dedicated to first responder mental health, helping police, fire, EMS, dispatchers, and paramedics create better growth environments for themselves and their teams. Let's get started.

SPEAKER_01 0:29

Well, welcome back to Resilience Development in Action. And as I joked around every single time, hey, look, we're dressed the exact same way, and it's a whole week later. I mean, we do not have much of a wardrobe, I guess. But Liana Lucene is here, UK London met police officer for over 18 years, now a trainer, and also has a book. I can't wait to talk about the book because you bring up something that's so important to me.

When We Dismiss Real Suffering

SPEAKER_01 0:52

I think that what I would like to maybe switch gears is to talk about people's distress. Because we talked a little bit about different distress, but maybe it's important to really address it. Some distress that people have come out and we pay attention, like we make sure that they get addressed. And other people, they have that same distress, and we laugh about it, we dismiss it, we're like, you're being dramatic, suck it up, buttercup, and all that. Why what do you think we do that? Why do we treat them differently from one person to another?

SPEAKER_02 1:24

I think we have a certain image in our minds of what certain conditions look like, what anxiety looks like, what depression looks like, what a victim looks like. And we have all these stereotypes. And when something doesn't look like that, we don't really believe it. And we don't even really explore or investigate or think, oh, you know, could this be? And then we give a really poor response, like we laugh at it or we dismiss it or we ignore it. For example, something I've I came to know and see was that depression can present itself very differently in men to women. And that's why I think a lot of time it's not spotted. For example, if you say to most people, what does depression look like? They'll say somebody's very sad, they're moving, talking very slowly, they don't want to do anything, there's no joy, etc. And that's what they're picturing. And this is quite true and quite commonly presented in women. Yet in men, depression often comes out as rage, as aggression and as outbursts. But the thing is, people don't recognize it. Because if they see an angry man, they just think, oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, he's angry, but he's okay. He's in control. If you're angry, then you're empowered and you're fine. You know, you can't possibly be, you know, sad or depressed if you if you're angry, because that's an act of emotion. And they don't see it. And this, of course, is quite worrying when you think it could be a red flag, a signal that this person is thinking of taking their own life.

SPEAKER_01 2:45

Well, I all I can think of is that's the stereotypes we talk about. First thing that came to mind is how, you know, if I start getting rageful right now, it's almost acceptable because, you know, apparently I'm a man, so that's okay. Now, Liana gets a little like rageful, not very ladylike of you. I mean, let's talk about even those stereotypes that we have, you know, man who's depressed, they almost hide it because that's not normal to be depressed. Well, yeah, no, it's actually gender-wise, it's a 50-50 split. Depression just shows up differently, as you said. How do we make sure that people's distress are again? We don't want to make it too special. We just talked about it in the last episode, but how do we also address it? Because I think that it's hard

Challenge The Box In Your Head

SPEAKER_01 3:28

for like for what I've what I've talked about, I'll share my story. You tell me what you think afterwards. What I tell people is we all have stereotypes, whether we like it or not. I don't care what you say, we all do. If I say think about a doctor, you have an image of a doctor. If I say think about someone who plays soccer, we have or football, we have a stereotype in our mind. Yep. I tell people nothing wrong with stereotypes per se, as long as you're willing to challenge them. I have the the I have the the perception of like if you tell me a Bobby, because I've been to London and I think of Bobby, I I have a view. It's you know, this tall male with a hat on and just a billy club on the left side. But I know that that's not everyone, that's the image I have. How do I challenge that? So for me, that's how I work on distress is that this is what distress looks like, but let's challenge what it looks like. Or this person should be looking this way, but let's challenge that. There's nothing wrong with stereotypes and compartments, it's as long as you want to challenge them. What do you think?

SPEAKER_02 4:27

Yeah, what's your I agree with you 100%. The brain is so fast, you couldn't stop it from making an assumption or having a stereotype if you tried. It's just too fast. It's done in a split second. So when I've seen trainers or training packages where they tell people to stop stereotyping, well, it's just ridiculous because the brain is so quick. But it's exactly what you said. What you have to do is just say to yourself, Am I right or am I wrong? And this is where humility and self-awareness come in. You have to be willing to accept that you could be wrong. And I think a lot of us naturally don't really want to do that. Why would we want to be wrong? We want to think that we're always right and we're always on the wrong.

SPEAKER_01 5:07

Just let's put that out. Go ahead.

SPEAKER_02 5:09

Yeah. Yeah, exactly. So I think this is what we need to go in to do going in. When we meet somebody, if we're a first responder, when we're sort of doing something, going to a call, we need to investigate. And when I say investigate, it's nothing special about it. It means asking questions, it means being open to the fact that what I see here might not be what it appears. This person might not be what they appear to be, the situation might not be appearing. Let me check, let me check. So, and that's what it's about. And then being kind to ourselves if it turns out we were wrong. Because we can all be wrong. And that's fine. What's important is we learn from that. We make a new and different decision, a better decision, and we learn from it and we take that knowledge, that experience with us the next time we meet somebody else, or we come into another situation.

SPEAKER_01 6:00

I used to coach soccer slash football, and I used to tell my girls who made mistakes on loot, because I have a girl and that's who I'd coached. I would say, if I don't make 10 mistakes in a day, I've done pretty good. That's a pretty good day for me. And normalizing mistakes has been one of those compartment boxes that I'm so happy I've developed because I screw it up all the time, and it's okay as long as I catch it, you know. And I think that these compartments that we have, you know, go back to the last episode. When you mentioned the prostitution rings and stings and all that, I had four images that came up. Highly likely, none of those people have ever been arrested. It was just the idea I have in my mind, and who you arrested was a very different type. We need to be able to look at that. There's nothing wrong, but people like I remember having a conversation with a friend of mine and they talk police profiling. I'm like, well, police profiling itself is not bad because you need to have that readiness that all just make sure you can challenge it. And that's the important part. And people, I tell people, profiling gets a bad name, but profiling ain't that bad. I mean, there's a difference between a guy leaving in a suit and tie to a casino versus in the middle of a bad neighborhood in Osaka, Japan. I'm just picking on a country, I have no con no concepts whatsoever. But there's a difference, and maybe in the bad part of Osaka, Japan, that's maybe a different type of oh shit. Why is he wearing oh shit, that's who he is, versus you go to a casino and no one gives a crap. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 7:30

Yeah. I mean, there there is some elements of truth to stereotypes, otherwise they wouldn't exist and they wouldn't use them in films. It's because we know what all of these stereotypes represent when somebody's dressed this way or they're dressed that way, the man in a suit, you know, there's a cowboy, there's this, there's that, the other. So there's always these elements of truth. But like, like we said, the the important point is is to just pause for a second and think, am I seeing everything here? Am I seeing the whole picture? Is this accurate? Do I need to ask another question? Do I need to look in more depth at this to really get to the truth?

SPEAKER_01 8:02

I mean, I I joke around and I know you you're you're you're from England. I'm from uh Montreal, Quebec, Canada. And people are like, oh, Canadians are so nice. I'm like, have you met me? That's why stereotypes never work. And I'm a nice enough guy, but I'm also kind of like, I'm not nice to be nice, and that's what the stereotype is in Canada.

SPEAKER_02 8:23

Yeah. I mean, I I find stereotypes fascinating sometimes. Sometimes they work in your favor. I found that as a female police officer, no one ever went to hit me. And they'd even say it out loud, oh, well, I can't hit a woman. And I think, well, that's nice, but it's a bit sexist, isn't it? It's not really very fair. It's not okay to hit my male colleague, is it? So you get all these things, you know, and it sometimes bothers me when they say, or in an emergency, you know, women and children first. Children first, yes, they're more vulnerable because they're less knowledgeable, they have less coping skills, they're smaller, lighter, etc. But why should women go before men? So sometimes these stereotypes, whilst they're well-meaning, sometimes need to be re-examined.

SPEAKER_01 9:02

Well, I think that that's a little bit of what we talk about with even these diagnoses again from the last episode and these stereotypes. And, you know, thinking about when we think about working with people, you know, sometimes people are going through grief and we misconstrue that as depression. People are being have a trauma and basically they're too weak to handle it. That's what the problem is. And again, yes, attack me all you want. I'm just showing you what the thought process is of people. Being able to break those boxes, we talked about that. But how does that help when you're treating as a police officer? Like, I loved working in a jail because I didn't actually, but I one thing I had an advantage, like I didn't wear a uniform, I was a mental health counselor. So I know that most of the inmates weren't going to pick on Mr. Mental Health. They would go after the CO and all that. Not that I want COs to be hurt, don't bright me at all. But what I would say to people is that being a correctional, being a mental health counselor in a correctional setting, I was safer than having a uniform. And I think that plays a lot of factor. But how do we work with people that make sense of those traumas, those griefs when they do present all differently?

SPEAKER_02 10:09

Yeah, I mean, this is it, isn't it? People are very, very different in how they come across. And that's often why it gets missed, because they're not presenting in the expected fashion. Not everyone cries, you know, not everyone breaks down. People can be sort of quite numb.

Trauma Looks Numb In Court

SPEAKER_02 10:24

My my first job after university was actually working in the central criminal court, what was known as the Old Bailey in London, one of the most famous courts. So I was 21 at the time, I was quite young. And it was very interesting for me to watch the victims of the most horrendous crimes come in and give their evidence. And one of the most natural responses when you know or believe you're going to be attacked, perhaps cross-examined by defense counsel, is you go quite plain faced, quite stoic, quite defensive. You're certainly not going to sit there and cry about your experience because you're in defensive mode. And of course, that's what they want, isn't it? Because they want, they don't want the jury to see you as a victim. They want you to see you being aggressive and fighting back, or being completely, you know, blank. Uh, because that's another coping mechanism. We go blank, we put all of our emotions in a box in order to get through this. And again, the jury is is looking at them. They're absolutely baffled. Well, I I don't understand. You say that you've been raped and you've been this and you've been that, but look at you, you're not feeling anything, you're not expressing anything. And it would be really disjointed. The jury would really struggle to see this person as a victim or having gone through this experience when they're either angry or just absolutely numb and blank in front of them because we're so used to expecting the stereotype of somebody crying, bawling their eyes out, and collapsing in a heap.

Dissociation As A Survival Skill

SPEAKER_01 11:46

And I think that that's where, you know, I just had a conversation with a colleague of mine a couple weeks ago in regards to dissociation and people saying, Oh, dissociation's so bad. Sometimes it's a really good coping mechanism to survive really bad shit. But what if they what if? And I'm like, don't live in the what-if world. They're allowed to have that. They don't believe me. There's, you know, there's shit I don't remember in my life, and I'm happy I don't. But I think that the other part too is when you talk about making sense of it, dissociation comes sometimes. If you really when you take it out outside the box, it's a a great defense mechanism. More importantly, I tell people like, if you've ever driven home and you don't remember how you got there, congratulations, you're dissociated. If you don't remember how many stop signs you hit on the way home, congratulations, you dissociated. Or if you're on the train or on the tube and you go, okay, how many stops did you go through and you don't remember that you dissociated? I think that the other part too is making sense of these traumas, guilt, vulnerability, and difficult human behavior. Sometimes we have defense mechanisms that actually make a lot more sense than we give it credit for.

Why Forced Therapy Can Fail

SPEAKER_02 12:50

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I think back to a study they did many, many years ago, actually, where they were trying to help soldiers cope or prevent them from getting PTSD. So the experiment they did was to give them therapy as soon as they landed. So as soon as they got back from deployment, they shoved them all into therapy, whether they wanted to or not. That's it. But they did it with the best will in the world, hoping that this would prevent PTSD from selling in. Sadly, uh, they didn't get the results they wanted or expected. Because this is the thing, talk therapy is wonderful, incredibly powerful and healing, but it has to be at the right time for the right person when they're ready to speak. You can't force somebody to speak, can you? And and you know, so so whilst this was quite a nice idea, uh, it did not pan out.

SPEAKER_01 13:37

And I think that you're that you make a lot of good points there. And the one point I I tell people is like, I'm a child and family specialist. That's actually my training. I don't work with children or family anymore because too many parents, family members would send their kid and say, make them talk. Oh, wait a minute, let me get the fucking wand upstairs. I forgot about it, but I my wand is available. I can't make people talk, I can't make people feel better. One of the things that's the hardest part, I think, in your job and my job that we have in common is we want people to succeed, we want people to get better, we don't want people to get worse. But if they we give them 20 tools and they go, Yeah, screw all your tools, I'm not using any. What type of behavior, what type of control do we truly have over that?

SPEAKER_02 14:19

Yeah, absolutely. And and people, you know, even when they sort of have problems with their memory, there's gaps or amnesia, they'll remember when they are ready to. It's not something that you can or should force people. Sometimes people will go their whole lives without really remembering or being able to talk about it. And and it's and it's tragic, but you have to look at well, how are they in general? If they're finding joy, if they've got happiness in their relationships, if they've got a fulfilling career, then we can't say, we can't have this blanket rule or command that everybody must recover in the same way in the same timeline.

SPEAKER_01 14:56

I'm sure you have Sisms or the equivalent to it in the UK. And one of the biggest mistakes when I have chiefs ask me, but we're gonna make it mandatory. I'm like, all right, you lost half your crowd. What do you mean? Like, you made a mandatory right away. Half of them said, screw you, they're not ready to talk, and they don't want to talk because they're forced to. And I don't I think that that's part of the other part. I get that schism works, don't get me wrong, but I can't force schism. And I think that that's what I I don't know if the UK is going through this type of similar behavior, but around here they want to make it mandatory to everyone. And I'm like, well, that's fucked up, isn't it?

SPEAKER_02 15:32

Yeah, yeah. And it's not respecting people's choice, and that's something I'm a great believer in that you must empower somebody. And what you're doing is you're taking their power away, which is what happened to them when you know they were made a victim in the first place. So now you're doing it again, you're taking away their power. Let's not do that. I think what we need to do is create circumstances where people feel safe enough to talk if they're ready. And this is what I found with with male victims is that I would be delivering some training. And part of it, not even all of it, I would talk about male victims of sexual assault or harassment. And then men would just start talking, and they would talk in the session or on a break or afterwards, and they would tell me they'd never spoken about it before. But they felt comfortable in that room, in that moment, it felt like a safe space for them to actually speak. So it's, I think it's about creating these times, these places, these environments where when people are ready, then they can come forward.

Sponsor Deemed Fit Discount Code

SPEAKER_01 16:36

Just a quick break, guys. I'm gonna talk about a new product that I really like. I actually bought one of their hoodies, it was amazing, and I really enjoyed wearing it. Uh, it this episode is gonna be supported by Deemed Fit. Deemed Fit is a first responder-owned activewear and a leisure brand. And one thing that I genuinely like about them is that they support different causes. I actually gave a few people I know who work with first responders, our nonprofits, their name to uh DEMFit, and I know they're talking to them. They do a lot of initiatives and collections that are based on mental health for first responders. And if you go there right now and you buy anything, including the mental health support stuff, use the code RDA15. That's right, R D A 15 to get 15% off on any products that you get. Again, it's called RDA15. Go to deanfit.com, D-E-E, M-E-D-F-I-T.com, and enjoy 15% off at checkout to save. Now, right back to the episode.

SOPs, EMDR, And Real Choice

SPEAKER_01 17:36

One of the my biggest pet peeves, even though I get why they exist, SOPs or standard operating procedures. People talk about those all the time. And oh, for trauma, send them to EMDR, send them to the peer support group, send them to blankety blank, whatever. But it's not flexible. And I tell people, like, that's where you go wrong. Is EMDR or iMovin desensitization reprocessing the best thing ever for trauma? Since I'm a provider and I've seen how it works a hundred percent. Would I send Liana the same way I would send John or Gene? No, I don't know. I I I honestly don't know if I would do all three the same thing with the same trauma. Why? Because people are different, people will respond to treatment differently. There's not one diabetes medication, there is not one cancer treatment. There are several based upon what the person does, and maybe they have allergies or what have you. I think that that's where when we talk about making sense of people's trauma vulnerability and all that, stop making it one box and throw people in that freaking box.

SPEAKER_02 18:42

Yeah. And again, it's giving them a choice. It's about saying, right, well, here's all your options. Do you want one of these now? And if you don't, well, they're still here for you, should you want them later on down the line? Because, of course, we change as human beings. A few years down the line, we might feel very differently. We might be ready. We might be in a situation where we sort of feel safer to talk about it, to open up, and we want to try it then. But I think it's absolutely great to provide these tools, but just let the person choose.

SPEAKER_01 19:13

Choice, what is that?

SPEAKER_02 19:16

Yeah, it's empowerment and respect.

SPEAKER_01 19:19

Oh no, we don't want that. We're we're admin. We want to we we don't believe in that. We believe in telling people what to do.

SPEAKER_02 19:26

Yeah, because sometimes it becomes too much about them protecting themselves, isn't it? Vicarious liability. It's about the tick box, and that's what they're doing. They're protecting the organization, not the individual.

SPEAKER_01 19:36

And there's something to be said that you can protect your organization. I fully respect that too. But when it becomes one or the other, that's where we all go wrong, in my opinion. I don't want to protect all my individuals, but I do want to protect my individuals. I don't want to protect all organizations, but I wanted to protect organizations. I hope that makes sense.

SPEAKER_02 19:55

Yeah, yeah, we can do both. We can.

SPEAKER_01 19:58

We just choose not to because we think that there's only one lane to get to.

SPEAKER_02 20:02

Yes, exactly.

SPEAKER_01 20:04

Well, one of the things that comes on to I should have a little music going with my little soundbox here, but I don't have one.

The Smelliest Scenes Question

SPEAKER_01 20:11

People bring up a question. I always ask my guests, what question should I ask my next guest? So the last guest asked me to ask the next guest, what is the smelliest scene you've ever been to? So we are at that point in this in conversation. So let me know what's the smelliest scene you've ever been to.

SPEAKER_02 20:28

Well, I mean, you you do picture particular scenes. I think you do deal with a lot of smells in policing, I think, because there's a lot of bodily fluids involved. And without being disrespectful, you deal with a lot of people in crisis, whether that's mental health crisis or they're addicted to alcohol or drugs. And of course, when you get really deep into that, self-care tends to go out the window. So hence why you get a lot of bodily smells, a lot of fluids, etc. So yeah, I think those those images are what comes to mind as somebody having a a crisis like that. And then, of course, you you know, you're talking bodily fluids everywhere.

SPEAKER_01 21:05

Right. Well, that's a good answer. I I I think about places where for me, the you know, the the one that comes to mind right away when I talk about the smelliest scene. I don't even know if it is. It was the first person we went to a welfare check on someone who clearly passed away several days ago. And the smell of that will always strike me. I will, and when I I tell people I saw one, I was good. I didn't even want to see that first one. Never mind seeing more. And then when I got to another door where we did a wellness check, and I can before we opened the door, I could smell it. I'm like, sounds like they don't need a mental health uh evaluation. I'm gonna go back to the to the cruiser. You and that's the one I remember the most. So I just wanted to share that because that's the one that like it's bodily fluids times three. Bodily fluids.

SPEAKER_02 21:52

Yeah, absolutely. It's feces, it's urine. Those are the ones I think for me that are most potent and yeah, difficult to deal with.

SPEAKER_01 22:00

My my girlfriend was talking about she's a nurse and she's like, I can deal with almost every bodily fluid. I just can't deal with vomit. Oh. And I'm like, oh, everyone has a little thing that they can't deal with. And I get that. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 22:12

Yeah. For me, it it was it was maggots. That's that's what I find really difficult. You know, smells were not pleasant, but it was it was because it makes the body look like it's moving, which is what I found sort of really uncomfortable.

SPEAKER_01 22:25

I've never seen that, nor do I want to see it. Thank you. That's great.

SPEAKER_02 22:28

Sorry.

SPEAKER_01 22:29

No, no, no, no. I'm saying that's great. I like to know what I don't want to face in life.

SPEAKER_02 22:33

Right. So there you go. Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 22:34

People call me what, like, oh, you didn't want your pussy. Like, yep, 100%. Thank you. I'm all set. I don't call me whatever you want. I'm good. Um, yeah. So now you're turn to tell me what's the next question? What's a question I should ask my next guest?

Men Ignored And Male Victims

SPEAKER_02 22:50

I would ask them what I always find interesting is what do people most frequently misunderstand about you? What are they always getting wrong?

SPEAKER_01 22:59

Oh, I like that. I think that that's a great question. I wish I could all compile them, but then it'd be like a show, and I'm not so one of the things that I would love to hear more about is that you this book fascinates me just by the title. I think I know what it's about. Haven't read it, but I definitely want to look at it. Is your book is called Men Ignored. Yeah. Can you tell us more about it?

SPEAKER_02 23:23

Yeah, so it's it's focused on male victims of sexual assault and harassment and abuse. And it's just based on my experience, not just in life, but in policing as well, where I found that the stereotypes we have, which you and I were talking about, the assumptions that we make, mean that so many male victims get ignored. They get missed, they get mistreated. And for some reason, there is no real conversation about this. We don't seem to be that bothered. So we've seen this huge progress with female victims over the last 10 years, I would say. And it's wonderful. I thought me too, fantastic. You've got lots of female support groups, etc. Really good. But we're not seeing the same for male victims. And people are just not seeing the lack of fairness here. And when I've spoken about it to some people, they're like, well, what? What's the big deal? Men can wait. Women are the majority. Forget it's like, oh my goodness. Do you not see that you know the absolute inequality here? It is not okay. It's taken us so long to support minority groups in so many different ways. It's taken us so long to support female victims because they were so badly treated. You go back 20, 30 years. So we recognize that now, but we're still not recognizing that we're either ignoring male victims or completely minimizing their pain and their suffering.

SPEAKER_01 24:44

Well, I agree with you wholeheartedly. And I would argue that we've come a long way with women, but we are also still victimizing them indirectly. But the men ignored, I know that for me, it took me years to talk about some of the depression stuff that I've gone through in my life and the loss that I've gone through because I want to be more manly. And I think that that becomes one of those stereotypes that I bought into. I don't buy into it anymore, but it took me years of therapy to get there. I think that's what you're talking about.

SPEAKER_02 25:14

Yeah, that's part of it. Absolutely. It's the expectations we put on boys and men about being strong, not crying, being able to put up with anything, being able to fight off anyone. So therefore, if something does happen to them, they feel that they can't speak about it because people are going to look at them like they're weak or they're incompetent or they're not masculine, they're not a man. So they're battling against all these stereotypes and expectations. That's definitely part of it. I think, you know, the other part of it is just when we say victim, we just tend to see women. And we're more comfortable with women as victims. If they want to cry or share their experience, we're okay. But if a man does, all of a sudden we're uncomfortable, we don't know what to do or how to react. And people laugh. So this was the most common thing that so many men told me, which was so awful, was that when they did finally get up the courage to tell somebody that they've been sexually harassed, assaulted, or abused, that somebody laughed at them. Their partner, their their father, their colleague, their supervisor. And I'm thinking, would we laugh at a woman? It's 2026. If a female said that she'd been sexually assaulted or harassed, would we laugh at her? I don't think we would. So why are we still laughing at men? It is not okay.

SPEAKER_01 26:30

Well, I appreciate that. And you know, I I would I I look forward to but reading your book, frankly, because I feel that that happens. And you know, the I know for me, what I've heard too under stereotypes, and correct me if I'm wrong. Well, you're talking about gay men, right? Not straight.

SPEAKER_02 26:49

That's the assumption. Yeah, another assumption. So many, so many assumptions. The other assumption is that men like any form of sexual contact, anytime, anywhere. You know, so if a if a woman were to grab a man, you know, etc., then he must enjoy it. Or hey, you're lucky. Wait, was she fit? Did you like it, etc., etc.? Well, you wouldn't say that to a woman if a man grabbed her, would you? Right. So why? Yeah. So there's all of these things. The way we treat male victims, I think, can be appalling.

SPEAKER_01 27:18

I I go back to even the stereotype of the sex offender under 16. If a man does it to a girl, there's this automatic disgust. But if an older woman does it to a boy, wow, lucky you, man. See, you got the experience. I'm like, fuck off. It's the same trauma.

SPEAKER_02 27:36

Exactly. Exactly. And sorry. Yeah, we do see it still. You're absolutely right. All over social media, if that story comes out, say a female teacher with a male student, all the comments saying that, you know, we're lucky him and he should have joined enjoyed it. And I think just stop, just stop and switch the genders and think to yourself, would I be saying it if it were the other way around? No, you probably wouldn't. So why are you saying it this way around?

SPEAKER_01 28:04

Well, I can go and on about the stereotypes that we have and part of the work, you know, that you talk about men ignored. I what I think is also what I do is as a male therapist, I get a lot of males who come in who are first responders, and they feel a lot more vulnerable talking to a man, but they also get ignored when they're going through stuff. You know, most men like, oh, you know, I'm having trouble at home, I'll just go work or do whatever. Well, no, sometimes that really plays a toll. You love your kids, you love your your partner, whoever that is. And I think that people don't understand that that weighs on you. Being a cop all the time, being a firefighter all the time, or whatever, that's not who you are. You're much more complex. And I think that the men get ignored once they have a certain role in life.

SPEAKER_02 28:48

Yeah, absolutely. And we still have a lot of stereotypes around that, don't we? About men, women working and who's parenting, etc. There's still the expectation that, you know, men are the breadwinner and the sort of solely responsible. And yes, women work. And then, of course, women will say, well, hollow, and there's a really unfair stereotype that women must take care of the kids. That's also unfair. So, but it's it's amazing that even today we still have a lot of these stereotypes still very much in place, causing problems for both genders.

Gendered Language And Training Bias

SPEAKER_02 29:16

It's very difficult. And I think sometimes you you look at language as well, I find interesting. I've noticed in so many training packages and training sessions, people constantly referring to the victims as she and the suspects or perpetrators as he. And sometimes while we're always doing that, we're setting the genders against each other. The men will come up and say to me, God, I walk into a training session and I just know straight away, just by being a man, I'm going to be told I'm bad. I'm wrong. I'm a predator, I'm dangerous. Oh my goodness, I've not done anything wrong. I'm a loving husband and father. And just by being a man, you're straight away telling me I'm automatically bad. And the women will say to me, Why are you constantly referring to me as a victim? And why are you making me feel like I'm weak and vulnerable all the time? So I think it's so important that we look at language and what we do when we attach it to genders.

SPEAKER_01 30:07

Well, I think it's that box we talked about in the first episode. We got to be able to challenge it. It's one of those things that I'd share this with a few people. I don't think I've done on a podcast. I was in their training for how many, like, and someone I knew was running the, but I was one of like one man out of like 25. There's women in this training, and the trainer happened to be male. He goes, Okay, how many of you have been at one point in time attracted to one of your clients? So I put my my my hand up because I think that's that happens, right?

unknown 30:37

Yep.

SPEAKER_01 30:37

No women put their arm up, and right away they were judging me. I could see it right away. And the trainer goes, He's the only one who's willing to admit it, so congratulations, because you've all done it. But somehow when a man does it, it's like really weird and strange. I didn't ask him if he acted on it. Now let's act how many people have acted on that attraction. I kept my hand out, never done that.

SPEAKER_02 30:59

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 30:59

And that's the bottom line is that we we don't treat men and women differ we treat men and women differently, and we shouldn't, because it's the same thing. And like, oh, so a man is attracted to a woman or whatever. I'm I I am a heterosexual man. What the fuck's wrong with saying that as long as you don't act on it? And I I think that it's one of those things there where women are not going to admit to that, but they've had that exactly.

SPEAKER_02 31:23

Yeah, and I think you know, sometimes I get sort of quite upset when I hear a lot of women talking about men in general. And what they're really doing is they're picturing male suspects and they're talking about them as dangerous and predators and they don't feel safe walking down the street. And I get that, you know, I remember being a young woman, so I understand their feelings, but it's when they extend it to all men and they don't even realize they're doing it. And you think, hold on a minute, there are male victims, there are boys, there are men who've been raped, they've been abused by their partners, but you're labeling them as bad automatically just because of their gender and just lumping that's half the planet you're talking about here. You know, let's talk about the subset of men who are criminals, who are offenders. They're a subset, it's not all men. Uh, and so I do get quite upset when there is these sweeping generalizations I think are quite damaging.

SPEAKER_01 32:11

Yeah, all men with a goatee is usually seen as threatening. I know how that feels. But where do we find

Resources, Book Links, And Closing

SPEAKER_01 32:17

men ignored? Where can we buy it?

SPEAKER_02 32:19

Uh so it's on Amazon and there's a link to it on my website as well. And there's free resources and there's support for male victims on my website for Lucene Training. So please, you know, help yourself.

SPEAKER_01 32:29

All right, and the website being what is what's the So it's Lucene Training.

SPEAKER_02 32:33

Yeah, that's my website. And so you can find it on there. And you can find me on um YouTube and Instagram as well. I post little videos talking about these issues.

SPEAKER_01 32:42

Well, I'll make sure to link those up in the show notes for people to go to on both episodes. But, you know, this was an amazing interview. I I know we're out of time here. But Liana, thank you so much. I want people to go buy it. I will buy that book because I find that you're right, men are ignored. And I do appreciate your time and thank you very much for that.

SPEAKER_02 33:02

It's been a real pleasure. Thank you for having me on, Steve.

SPEAKER_01 33:05

And for those of you come back for the next episode as we are completing this episode.

SPEAKER_00 33:12

Please like, subscribe, and follow this podcast on your favorite platform. A glowing review is always helpful. And as a reminder, this podcast is for informational, educational, and entertainment purposes only. If you're struggling with a mental health or substance abuse issue, please reach out to a professional counselor for consultation. If you are in a mental health crisis, call 988 for assistance. This number is available in the United States and Canada.