E.23 A Conversation With Blythe Landry About Trauma Intelligence

In this episode, I had the opportunity to talk to Blythe Landry, author of "Trauma Intelligence".  Her book talks about 5 types of trauma(plus a bonus of 5 more in the last chapter) and very practical and down to earth examples of what it may look like, what you can do for someone who is struggling with these traumas, as well as a Call to Action for yourself. 

Blythe is not only a skilled coach, clinician, author, teacher, I also consider her a great friend and awesome colleague.

You can book Blythe for a coaching or teaching session at her website https://www.blythelandry.com
 
You can purchase her book directly on her website or at Amazon by clicking here

You can also follow Blythe on Instagram here. 

Transcript

Steve Bisson: 0:01

Hi and welcome to finding your way through therapy. I am your host, Steve Bisson. I'm an author and mental health counselor. Are you curious about therapy? Do you feel there is a lot of mystery about there? Do you wonder what your therapist is doing and why? The goal of this podcast is to make therapy and psychology accessible to all by using real language and straight to the point discussions. This podcast wants to remind you to take care of your mental health, just like you would your physical health. therapy should not be intimidating. It should be a great way to better help. I will demystify what happens in counseling, discuss topics related to mental health and discussions you can have what your thoughts, I also want to introduce psychology in everyday life. As I feel most of our lives are enmeshed in psychology. I want to introduce the subtle and not so subtle ways psychology plays a factor in our lives. It will be my own mix of thoughts as well as special guests. So join me on this discovery of therapy and psychology. Hi, and welcome to episode 23 of finding your way through therapy. If you haven't had a chance to listen to episode 22, please do so it's really good. It talks about bereavement and grief, especially around the holidays. I share a lot of my personal stories in there. And I hope that you find them helpful for you. But episode 23 is going to be equally exciting for me. Although you know, it seems strange to talk about trauma and say that you're excited. But I'm talking to a friend of mine BeLight Landry, she has written a book called trauma intelligence. She is a duly licensed LCSW are a master's in social work, as well as a master's in education has been working 20 plus years helping clients recover from trauma, grief and addiction. She does a lot of one on one she does corporate events. She also has a lot of workshops that she likes to do and has been in different organizations across that timeframe. I actually worked with her on one of those organizations. And that's how we met and we've been friends ever since. But she really believes that there's no story that's too painful to hear. And she loves to hear stories, stories from everyone and be there for them. She has an amazing story she shared with me personally, I hope the interviewer comes around to a lot of these personal stories that we have had over the course of many years. But more importantly, she has an amazing book. I'm just about done with it, and just a great book. And obviously, that's gonna probably come up. So I hope you enjoyed the interview. And here it is. Well, Hi, and welcome to finding your way through therapy. Today, I have someone that I've known for over six years, I did the math right before we we started this interview. And yet, I think I've met her once face to face. And I can't tell you how much this is a person that I absolutely love for so many reasons other than a therapist. She's just a great person, a great friend, truly appreciate her. But she just released a book, trauma intelligence. I'm almost done. I gotta be honest, I didn't finish it. I got a couple of chapters left, but I read most of it. And it's an amazing book. And it's from an amazing person. So I want to welcome Blythe Landry to the show.

Blythe Landry: 3:08

That is so wonderful. And kind Steve, thank you so much for those words and for having me and for reading the book. And just including me in this, you know, yes, we met six years ago through a mutual therapy group. And I've always just felt the same way about you admired. You seem to be such a compassionate, but also smart and really invested human being and your clients in the therapy community at large. So really excited to be here. Thank you so much.

Steve Bisson: 3:38

Well, let's start off but because I could talk on and on about how we worked as experts on a on a team and how we really connected you. Between your trauma, intelligence and trauma and work that I've done with substance abuse. Also you have that experience. It's like we're to two peas in a pod is that the expression?

Unknown: 3:55

Two peas in a pod? Yes.

Steve Bisson: 3:57

So but I know you obviouslybut maybe my audience doesn't know who you are. So maybe you can introduce yourself and tell me more about yourself. Sure.

Unknown: 4:05

So you know, I'm Blythe, obviously, I have been a therapist and coach for 20 years. I primarily work with people who are coping with trauma, grief and addictions, right. And I've helped people internationally for a very long time. I also do corporate coaching on the issue of trauma intelligence and have worked with a fortune five company. I've worked with nonprofits. And that's a real passion of mine to bringing this idea of the fact that we have mental challenges, mental health challenges, emotional challenges and trauma challenges all over the world, especially now. And how can I respond to it as professional one to one working with clients but also how can I help other people who are not professionals be more impactful in a world where everyone around them is suffering, right?

Steve Bisson: 4:59

Absolutely. Leave, I think that that's what I love your passion. And that's why, you know, like, I started my work, I decide to be a therapist because I lost my best friend when I was 12. And you know, this is the ad. So it's like, suck it up, buttercup, go to go to the next football game, go to school, just live it and you know, that nothing wrong. That's just how it happens when you grow up right? In the 80s. But you know, obviously now I never want anyone to be alone. That's why I do a lot of the trauma, the grief and the addiction like it, but we develop our love for our work in different ways. How did you develop your love for work? I mean, you just don't wake up when they go. I'll be a trauma specialist. Thank you. So how does that work for you?

Unknown: 5:40

A two part thing. I think even as a child, I was so focused on compassion or empathy, if you will, for people who I would deem were suffering, right, like my mom used to tell me at a very young age, like your softhearted, you're going to need to toughen up, because life's going to be difficult for you, if you're seeing those things in other people in wanting to help. However, I think that was sort of an early foray into the fact that that was something that I was drawn to. And doing it in a professional way, is actually a way to make a difference for people who are actually seeking that difference. Right. I also have, you know, had my own traumas, my own losses, you know, I've been sober for 15 and a half years, that was a challenge in my life. I come from a family of very struggling alcoholics, you know, and just in terms of inspiration, oh, in terms of your other question to Steve, though, that how did trauma come up? It wasn't my like, it was one of those things where your career leads from one thing to another thing to another thing, you know, when I first got my second master's degree in social work, I was initially working with people with severe and chronic mental illness. And that led to something else, which then led to something else. And it led to me working at a university, as well as working at a place that helped loved ones of people who had completed suicide. And so and then that caught me and did the grief part and the trauma part. And then it just kept building from there. And I've always said, like, for me, and you know, this is a therapist, a lot of professionals turn away from people who are the most suffering like that. And there's nothing wrong with that choice. I mean, a lot of therapists prefer to work with people who are just dealing with life situational issues, right? For me, I'm most driven by those darker spaces, because I see transformation in people. Exponential transformation, you know,

Steve Bisson: 7:35

and I think that that's what really makes sense to me is that when we see that change, and people, it's just an amazing type of work. I mean, I did an interview that aired a couple of weeks ago in regards to crisis work. And I worked on a crisis team for 15 years, and you see a lot of grief, you see a lot of trauma, you see a lot of that stuff. And one of the things I mentioned there, and I'll mention here, again, there's nothing as a therapist, for me anyway, that if you can relieve even this, just a little bit of that pain. But you know, just relieving that pain, that suffering just for half a second sometimes can be the most liberating thing for our clients.

Unknown: 8:12

Absolutely. And for us as well, right, it keeps us going as professionals. In terms of just inspiration, though, for the book, my sister unexpectedly died in August of 2020. And a friend of mine suggested that I just consider writing. And I've always been a writer, and I've always, you know, been told oh, write a book, write a book. So I started writing. And it turned into this, and you haven't gotten to the end of the book. But the book actually ended with one of my best friends dying this May. And she had the difference between the way that she passed away, which my sister just suddenly died. I mean, there were some symptoms that she was ill, but not that she was about to just die. And my friend had cancer for a long time. And my sister was only 62. And my friend was 52. So they were bookends, so to speak, on the writing of the book. And the inspiration for that is not just, you know, for myself to get the written word down, but also to impart things that they are not going to be able to experience in this life, because their time was cut short. So yeah, so that was the inspiration for that. And the inspiration for actually just the details of the book really has been a desire to be practical, and to give practical suggestions to anyone and everyone because I think and you probably would agree with me on this, Steve. I think most people that are making the biggest difference in the world are not even people that are setting out to make a difference maybe like us, but people that just they're under the radar, right? They go to work. They always ask how others are. They're consistent. They're emotionally present. Like I think a lot of people who make a difference in the world are people Who never get noticed for it? Right? And they can, they can always use extra tools and being the awesome people they already are.

Steve Bisson: 10:08

And I so true. I think that, you know, we set out to do this work. Absolutely. But I also think that even as therapists, sometimes we don't see the impact that we've done in people's lives. I mean, there's nothing like having a note, I get notes, you know, years later from clients telling me, you know, you remember you said this, and I don't know about you, but sometimes I'm like, I did. I mean, yes, I did. And that really changed my life. And it really helped me. So I think that that really inspires our work. Because sometimes we don't know the impact. We have nevermind other people. And I think that having the friends that you had, and I did read the dedication of the book, so that was beautiful. But I think that having that stuff around is absolutely. And I think that our own loss is always playing a factor in our work, right?

Unknown: 10:58

Of course, it's what they call that wounded healer, right? If we can transform ourselves. So absolutely, yes, I agree with that wholeheartedly.

Steve Bisson: 11:07

And I know that shopping becomes an interest because of personal stuff. We dig into it, and then we go, I don't know anything. And I don't know if that was your experience or not. But the more I dig into different people's traumas, the more I realized that I don't know anything about trauma, and I keep on reading to this day about Trump. You know, like I, when I started, you know, you go to school, you know, about trauma, right? You know, DSM four, or five, or whatever, this week is the criteria. And then you're like, Oh, crap, you start really digging into people's lives and the different types of trauma that they've had. You're like, Whoa, I know nothing about trauma.

Unknown: 11:45

Well, it's, we're always learning right? And, and I think that, you know, like I talked about in the book, there's, we think of trauma is like a plane crash or a car accident. And of course, those things are horrific. Ly traumatic. I think a lot of what people are experiencing, though, is this ongoing nuance, layered relational trauma from confusing mixed messages as children up through adulthood. And a lot of that trauma then creates more trauma, because then we go out and pick people who will mirror those things. And it's like the same thing over and over and over again. And so I think it's true, there's always something new that maybe, that we haven't heard of yet, or it couldn't have even occurred to us. I'm sure that's happened to you and your career to like, things you couldn't predict you would hear you're just like, whoa, that's, that's one that really kind of knocked me off my course. I didn't see that coming. So there's always new things. And then there's the religious stuff. And then there's neglect. And then there's just financial stuff. I don't think any book or any thing could ever, like, include every type of trauma even remotely possible to think of, you know,

Steve Bisson: 12:52

and I think I go, maybe I'm not remembering right, I go back to Nora voce divorce book on the original trauma, which is the loss of our relationship with our mother, and how that also affects us. So that's how trauma can start. And it's not necessarily a negative trauma, but that loss, we're always looking for that attachment. And I think that trauma is so complex, nevermind, if you start going into the neurological value of what trauma does to our brain,

Unknown: 13:19

right, completely changes your and from the inside out from the brain on out, right. It's it's insane to think about, yeah, it starts and even people with like what we think have no issues at all, right? It's trauma is relative to its relative. And that's one of the things I think that's really important if you want to be a safe person is just because someone seems to have things that maybe someone else didn't have that may have seemed to have it worse, it doesn't see their pain is still real for them. I always say focus on the feeling more than the story. If someone is suffering about something, and that's hurtful to them, then it's valuable to be there for them.

Steve Bisson: 14:01

And it's just meeting them where they're at. And I think that that's the stuff that I remember about trauma so much. I remember that losing a pet an animal, a cat dog, I saw your dog earlier. You know, when you lose those animals, I think a lot of people like oh, well it's just an animal. Now, it's just not just an animal. And that could be a traumatic event for you. traumatic event doesn't have to be in you know, hopefully we don't trigger anyone but it doesn't have to be 911. It doesn't have to be a pandemic. It doesn't have to be a giant event like that. It could be something like losing a patent. It could be losing your ability to connect with someone because they move somewhere they're gone for a year or you lose a partner that you really trusted. I mean it to me when you think about trauma and I talked about in my last podcast episode right before you. Trauma is individual. We cannot judge where the trauma comes from.

Unknown: 14:54

No we absolutely can and when you bring up pets like for a lot of us pets or our children, pets, some Lies unconditional love, they symbolize something we're responsible for, that we often have longer relationships with than some people are with us all the time. And you know, the Grief Recovery method. I'm a certified Grief Recovery method specialist. It's a great Grief Recovery Program. And one of the things they define grief as the normal and natural reaction to loss, but they also define it as the normal and natural Well, the normal and natural, conflicting feelings that develop out of any change in familiar pattern of behavior. So that covers everything, like even if you have a friendship with someone, and suddenly the dynamic of that relationship changes, and you don't understand why that's traumatic for you, right? It's a loss. If your whole team gets reorganized at work, and you had an amazing boss, and they leave, you still have a job, some would argue, well, you still have a job, you make a lot of money, whatever that is, however, your whole life is different. What you can expect is different. You know, so trauma is relative, and some people, then you look at the spiritual question of other people have five or six family members dying to hear. I mean, it's like, why that for some people and other people? No, I don't know the answer.

Steve Bisson: 16:13

And I think it's also, you know, I think, I'm just gonna share that not going home for about 20 months to see my family because of the pandemic. My mom being alone, I'm an only child. And then, you know, the time I go up is because my uncle passes away, which recently happened. I mean, there's this loss of not being there, then you go there, there's another kind of loss, a lot of trauma. And I might go with that. How do you recommend people deal with those difficulties on a daily basis? Because they do happen, I think. And sometimes we feel, you know, I remember working with someone who said to me, it's ciliates. You know, it's nothing. No, other people are going through that. And I always kind of remind people like, there is, you know, Afghani refugee trauma. And then there's our trauma. And there's not one that's more valid than the other. Do you use that type of thought process with them? Or do you talk a similar?

Unknown: 17:06

Yeah, I think that I mean, I think it goes back to what we were saying before, it's like, just because something is worse doesn't mean that what your experience isn't the worst for you, you know, that feeling of not being able to go back to Canada to see your family feeling trapped in a different country that had to be horrific for you. And also, the only time you can go back is when you lose your favorite uncle, like you were telling me before. Also, I think what you're talking about, like seeing your mom, like when you're not with her right, you can put that image out of your mind, so to speak. But being back in that space, and seeing maybe that she is alone, that she is isolated, maybe she's declining somewhat, that's now in your mind, that's a trauma, the trauma of last time. So I would say that the suggestion is if you're someone out there who has someone in your life, who's going through something similar to what Steve's doing, you know, to validate that to be realistically acknowledged that that is painful. I don't think most of us take the time to think about, like I said earlier, there's nuance things that are very difficult, seeing someone we never get to see. And now we have that image lodged in our brain of them being alone suffering, probably months past, you can put it out of your brain again. But it still doesn't ever go away that you are concerned for someone it's like, especially as an only child, Steve, especially as an only child,

Steve Bisson: 18:26

I think it's hard for any kid, frankly, I know, it's particularly hard when you're an only child and you feel responsible. And sometimes you have children, and you talk about in your book, and we're gonna get to that and you know that our parental FIDE field that needs to be there for their parent and all the trauma that goes with that. But just a reminder, we're listening to finding your way through therapy. And we'd like we're talking about her book, trauma intelligence. And we're going to talk about a lot more because we've known each other way too long to just keep it about that. One of the things I would I'm going to talk about is your way in your book that I really like is you talked about five types of trauma and the catastrophic in trauma, childhood trauma, ambiguous trauma, workplace trauma, and communal and collective trauma. Is that something that you kind of like when experience came up with or is it? How did that come about?

Unknown: 19:15

Absolutely, it's first of all, those are five. Yeah, those are five major categories of trauma that I feel are very, very pronounced in the people I work with in the companies I've trained. And I will say at the end of the book, there's five other types of trauma that I mentioned, and that there's going to be no list of traumatic events or traumas that can encompass everything, right. What if you think about we work the majority of our lives, there's so much stuff that happens at work, we have most of what informs our reactions to adult circumstances is that childhood trauma, right, that then builds a foundation of vulnerability. Right, then we've got the ambiguous trauma, which I think is one of the most important and least talked about is the constant pain. pain of having something happen in your life that is unresolvable, that keeps on quote unquote giving in a painful way. And ambiguous trauma, I think is this one where people get the least support in the longest, longest term period. Catastrophic trauma is what we think of when we think of like things like September 11. And like we were talking about before, communal trauma pandemic is a perfect example. Right? The thing is, with these these variations, I think they cover most types of trauma. I think a lot of things that people wouldn't think about with workplace trauma, is that, yes, frontline workers and things like that, of course, veterans, there's workplace trauma, but a lot of workplace trauma happens with abusers at the office. Absolutely. And so that I think was important to add, because I've had way too many clients, and personal experiences with and friends with things like that at the office that people don't identify as traumatic events. Right, right.

Steve Bisson: 21:00

Yeah. And I think that that's the other thing that I, you know, when when I talked to many of my guests, we talked about these categories, but they're not exclusive. I mean, you can have a catastrophic trauma that causes ambiguous trauma. And you that is also communal, for example. And I think that it's important to remember that, you know, identifying to one doesn't make, it's not necessarily just one, it typically is more than one and kind of like addressing those layers is very important.

Unknown: 21:29

Absolutely. And the other thing that's important is that one can also fit into more than one category, like childhood trauma of living with, you know, alcoholism in a parent where the person doesn't get help, and it's consistently they're nice, or Jekyll and Hyde, they're nice. They're mean, you know, that is also an ambiguous trauma, right? Absolutely. But it's also a childhood trauma or the canister, I mean, the communal trauma of the pandemic is also an ambiguous trauma. I mean, we don't know when it's going to end, we don't know every state is different. We don't know who's gonna get sick. Next. We don't know when we can get our elective surgeries, we don't know when we'll get things. And then there's all these other things like lack of resources, lack of materials like that, or we're having access to as a byproduct of this. So, you know, there's just one thing leads to another thing leads to another thing. So yeah, I think the importance of this just really, that I want to get across is just that. It's really anyone can make a difference. You don't have to be a therapist to make a difference.

Steve Bisson: 22:28

And I think that that's what I love the most about your book, this is not a therapist. I don't know what the right word said directed towards that. I should. I should also mention that as I read it, I recommend it to all therapists. But what I love about it is that, you know, most of my clients asked me what's a good book about trauma? So well, there's a Bible called the Body Keeps the Score that you know, most of us work in trauma. I love that book. It's freakin dry. If your day to day that's not your job. That's not what you deal with.

Unknown: 23:01

Is academic. Yeah, it's a brilliant I mean, obviously, it's famous for a reason. And it's revolutionary. And it's scientific, right? Scientific revolutionary, is not what 99.9% of humanity relates to 99.9% of humanity as a single mom with three jobs. blue collar worker, who, you know, is just coming up, the ability to work on one's mental health is a luxury. Absolutely, it is. absolute privilege, luxury. So most people don't have the time, the resources, the access, but everybody can get a copy of a book, or a Kindle for a, you know, $1, some highlight, you know, and just go, Oh, this is something, okay, let me try this, or let me ask someone to do this. I also think it's important to me that it's a tool that gets the conversation going, you know, you and I are both over educated, I have all these degrees, I have all these extra certifications. That doesn't matter to me as much as it matters that I'm helpful. 100% I'd rather be helpful than smart. And that's what I want to impart here. So I'm glad it seems like that I've acquired, you know, according to your experience, I've successfully done that. So you've absolutely

Steve Bisson: 24:14

done it. But there's still a couple of chapters left. So I'll keep you posted. I'm just kidding, of course. No pressure. But no, but I think that that's absolutely a good point. You know, one of the things that I feel also our connection is all about is that we have all these overeducated things on our wall and that I have to, but I always try to relate one on one with people. And while there is a power differential in our work that we absolutely need to recognize, in my book, I also tried like most the best compliments I get is you treated me like an equal. You kind of are my equal. We're just in different roles here but we're equals and I think that's what you bring to that book and not only as As a person, obviously, but that book breaks that too.

Unknown: 25:03

I'm so glad I'm so glad it's a useful tool. That's all that I that I wanted to be, you know, a useful tool for anyone and everyone. And I'd love to see it get into like school districts and you know, nonprofit organizations and organizations as a reference guide, like businesses need to be implementing this. They know places like institutions of education, mental health facilities, all these people were very good as professionals that helping other people, but we're not always good at recognizing how our own trauma would be impacting how we treat others, some of us who are in helping professions actually, like forget to look at ourselves, right. And there's behaviors that are unaddressed. You know, I was sort of horrified when I was in grad school for social work and education, too. And then also, when I was I worked the head of admissions for graduate school of social work, how few people who go to school to be therapists are in therapy. And I don't know if this is not the case in Canada or not, you'll have to tell me, but in the United States, there is no requirement that you go to therapy to be a therapist, which is sort of horrifying.

Steve Bisson: 26:05

And I think that that's a pushback from the years and years ago, from psychoanalytic therapy, where you had to go three times, you know, I'm not defending it, I'm noting it. Because I think that even I had that mentality when I first read psychoanalytic stuff and have to be on the couch three, three times a week in our time. And, you know, that was kind of like, so like, I don't know if exposing is the right word, but I guess I'm gonna use exposing and daunting. So I think that, you know, that pushback led to a lot of therapists, I'm like, No, I'm the helper, I don't need therapy. And I, you know, I, I've thought about, I thought like that at one point in my career, and I'm not going to pretend I didn't, you know, I would say that that's changed over the last 15 or 20 years. But I also think that we also, I personally think that you're right, that it's a luxury. But I will go to my grave saying that, just like we get a physical every year, we should go see a mental health counselor just to check in once a year. And if you need more help you get more help. And if you don't need a check in in a year, I think it's essential.

Unknown: 27:06

It's a great idea. Yeah. So

Steve Bisson: 27:08

that's, it's one of those things that I really like about your book, too, because what you do is that at the end of every chapter, you have a call to action. I was wondering if that was like done instinctively? Or was it just like planned that way? Or how was that?

Unknown: 27:24

Everything was done instinctively? I mean, I am. I mean, obviously, the it's a culmination of all my life experience, right? The way that I work, though, is based on intellect and intuition as sort of combination of that, right. And as as I kind of like what I was saying about my career, as I did, one thing led to another thing that led to another thing. So the call to action was an instinctive thing. I just did it from the beginning. And then I kept adding it in throughout the end. So I want it to be practical, I think. I'm also equal parts woowoo and practical. That's sort of my personality, like, I can be up in the ethers and touchy feely, but I'm also extremely pragmatic. So I think it's a combo of both. This is

Steve Bisson: 28:09

the other thing too, that feeling like we talk to a mirror, sometimes when we talk to each other i My favorite Description One of my clients does is that my woowoo Buddhists straight to the point therapists, and I'm like, yeah, that pretty much is who I am. And I think that it's okay to be woowoo and be a therapist and be a human and be everything that we do. And I think that when I read your book, I was looking at a call to action. And I was like, that's perfect, because I think that after you read all that you might have a lot to kind of like process even in your own thoughts. And again, more for like, again, I recommend therapists and anyone to read that book, but I think that it helps those who may not know how to do the process of therapy, or is it scary? or what have

Unknown: 28:51

you? Absolutely, yeah, it's accessible, which a lot of mental health stuff is not accessible. So

Steve Bisson: 28:59

I think that that's why, you know, one of the things that I was thinking about when I was reading those call to actions is some of it like for me, would be like, you know, you mentioned it all the time, if you don't feel comfortable putting it aside, and don't go back. You go back when you're ready. One of the things we're really good when we have trauma is to avoid. I don't know about you, but my experience with trauma is that people are very good at avoiding those trauma responses, and all that. So how do we how do we know we're ready to go back to working on the call to action?

Unknown: 29:32

I think that you know, you have to be in a place or get to a place where with professional help or whatever you're doing to work on yourself, that you know that you're safe to manage feelings, right. One of the things that happens when we have a lot of childhood trauma, specifically is that we don't trust ourselves to manage emotions, right? So if you're in a place where you feel out of control with your emotions, then it's time to take a pause, talk to your therapist, talk to a friend You know, it's not intended to be therapy, it's intended to be supportive information. So one of the signs that we're moving forward in life in general is that we can manage our feelings and feel like they're not too large. Because when you're a little kid and you have bad things happen to you can't manage your emotions. And if you're reading it, and it comes up that you panic, then it might be a sign that you're not ready, and that you need to get some outside help professional help. So hopefully, that yeah,

Steve Bisson: 30:29

that definitely, that answers the question. And what I would also let people know what I find, too, by reading your book is that when you think about trauma, I always think about the three parts of the brain, you know, the stem, the midbrain, and the cerebral cortex, and a lot of our traumas that gets stuck in the midbrain. And if you're feeling like in the fight, flight or freeze response, and maybe that's a good time to just take a chill time and not go to it right away. And hopefully, the book creates those neural pathways to get to the cerebral cortex. So you can think about what happened. For sure, I think that neuro neurology is something that I really embrace with my trauma work, because it's when people are in their fight or flight, we get the privilege or, you know, I find it's a privilege when people tell me about their trauma, and you can clearly tell they're freezing or fighting, or they're, they're fighting.

Unknown: 31:22

Yes. And if you've read anything about it, it is a privilege, I think it's a greatest privilege, someone will expose that aspect of themselves to you, and to feel like you're astute and navigating that or communicating in a way that helps someone feel safe in that moment. Right. And I think too, one of the things that's really intriguing to me is this, this fourth trauma response that is now being talked about, which is a fight flight, freeze, and if nothing else works, we find, and I think a lot of us who grew up with trauma are people pleasers, and, you know, seek validation to make sure that we're safe. And so I think once you get it's sad to think about in a way that you've had to go through fight, flight and freeze and none of those work. So you had to go into whatever you could do to survive.

Steve Bisson: 32:11

And I can't, you know, I can't wait for more research on fun, because I think that that is absolutely the next step. It's a little bit of that stuff that I really think that we're going to get there just like, you know, I, I talked about this again, in my last one of my last podcast that C PTSD or complex PTSD is going to be one day a diagnosis. I'm a big wreck. I'm a big fan of that. Let's look at the studies for us. And I know that people like well, why are you waiting like, Well, no, I did probably exists. I'm not denying the existence of it. But I'm also waiting that we can't throw these things until we have more research on

Unknown: 32:48

I think I think that's true. I think that we can take what we have use it. I mean, it makes sense to me that fawning I know everyone I know that has trauma, to some extent struggles with people pleasing. However, yes, I hear you I'm wanting more research and more validity to those things for sure.

Steve Bisson: 33:05

The people pleasing is absolutely part of it. And you know, again, a reminder, we're listening to finding your way through therapy, sitting here with life. I'm Stevie. So reading your book also brought, you know, one of the chapters that I read, and I gotta tell you, I got I felt so seen. But as part of your book is the one about self sabotage, when were people pleasers and everything else. Is that again, something that you've seen a lot? Is that something that you talk about a lot? Is it something that you How did that come up?

Unknown: 33:33

Absolutely. It's my own personal experience with being you know, sort of that parental child and having that experience. And also it everything in the book, including that chapter is from conversations and years and years of working with people who've had similar experiences. You know, I think the other thing about that chapter on self sabotage, or childhood trauma, and being an adult as a child is that the thing I like about that story that I think is important is that even the parent wasn't intending harm, you know, but created harm. And it was her own self sabotage, that created the harm for her son that then created the harm for other people in his life. So I think that was an important thing, I think to impart that, yes, a lot of things that happen are from people who are horrible monsters that do things to children that are unthinkable. Most things that happen are not with a person waking up and being like, I want to damage my kids. You know, I just don't think that's typical, but a lot of damage can be done if we're not examining ourselves. So yeah, that came from personal experience. It came from professional experience. It came from hearing these things over and over. It came from being in recovery for a really long time. It came from you know, all those experiences. A lot of what happens in childhood and in hurts and in wounds happens because one generation doesn't heal it. They don't have resources to heal it. They dump it on the next generation who then tries to deal with it a little better. I always think there's like one person in every family who's really on a mission to change. I've seen it over and over and over again. And that's in that story in the book, the sister was on a mission to change, you know, and if you look, you'll understand she got out. And then nobody knew what to do with her because she got out. So and I'm glad it made you feel seen. I mean, I'm sorry, it made you feel seen because it means you've experienced some painful things. But being seen through our pain is a valuable experience.

Steve Bisson: 35:31

And the reason why I was so important for me to talk about today is that I want to show also the human side of a therapist, the human side of, it's okay to be seen around that stuff. I don't have a problem with that at all. Personally, you know, one of the things that I talked about, we talked about generational trauma, which happens from generation to generation, one of the things that I always kind of make a point to say to my clients who do a lot of process of trauma, whether it's through regular therapy, and or I do, eye movement desensitization, and reprocessing, or EMDR, is to say that, congratulations, you're breaking a cycle. And I think that it's important to show how much of an achievement that truly is

Unknown: 36:13

the you huge achievement. And if I don't have children, I know you do. If you're breaking a cycle, your children are then getting a broken a cycle that is broken in a good way, not broken. You know, they get something else, you know, and I think as a parent, I'm not a parent, like I said, but I wonder if you'll agree with this, the best thing you can do as a parent is just apologize when you're wrong. I really think that goes so far, just in terms of trauma, most trauma is is as bad as it is because no one ever acknowledged it right? As reality. And so the loss of reality testing is there. So I think, you know, of course, again, I have no basis for saying this. But as a professional who listens to people all the time, who have dealt with childhood

Steve Bisson: 36:58

trauma, you have a basis just for the record.

Unknown: 37:01

Yeah, just but for the for the to say to someone I was wrong, it was me it wasn't you can like change the course of your child's entire future.

Steve Bisson: 37:11

The hardest part, I think, to explain to parents, and certainly as even as a parent myself, when I do make a mistake, and I apologize, and there was my mistake, or what have you. And that's very powerful. The hardest thing I think for a parent, and maybe you've had that experience is when they you apologize, but don't say that, but I apologize and not blame the child. And that's very difficult to explain to some of the parents, especially when there's generational trauma stuff.

Unknown: 37:38

Yeah, because I always say apologizing to someone is often harder than telling them you love them. It's vulnerable. So if you have trauma, and you're a parent, and apologizing feels dangerous to you. But really, and truly just saying it was me it wasn't you could it's safe to do with a child, child, children are very forgiving. And I mean, I'll say it, if you're a parent, it's your responsibility to work on those things. If you are in a position where you've chosen or gone on a path to have children, you got to work on it. You got to say you're sorry. And there's a difference between saying I'm sorry, I did that and apologizing for everything you do. Right? That's that's the trauma response. So I think,

Steve Bisson: 38:19

read defying the child, by the way, but go ahead.

Unknown: 38:21

Yeah, I think it's yeah, they're, I think it's probably it's the most difficult thing that anyone could ever do is be a parent, I don't think you can win. No matter how amazing you are. However, I do think if you can just acknowledge a few things that are hurtful when you blow up or when you make a mistake. It also teaches the child how to take responsibility for their behavior.

Steve Bisson: 38:44

Beyond trauma I, I coach, one of my daughters, my youngest daughter's team, I've been doing this for a few years. One of the things I remind them constantly when they make a mistake, especially playing soccer, people feel a lot of pressure and I got to remind them when I get to they get to the bench. I'm like, if I didn't make 10 mistakes in the day, I've had a pretty damn good day. So it's okay. It's okay to make mistake.

Unknown: 39:07

Well, it's great that they have someone like you as a coach, then well,

Steve Bisson: 39:09

I think that that's part of what you talked about being a therapist or being a human being and trying to help people, whether it's trauma or what have you, but I think can relate to that is that I try to model the behavior and try to show I work with girls. So it's also about small things like even when they're hurting, they need help to the bench. I asked for consent. I say, Can I help you? And those little things go a long way to give a voice so that if there is a trauma, you can actually have a voice as a person and feel that at a very young age so important.

Unknown: 39:44

Oh, wholeheartedly agree with that? Yes, yeah. And just start sending those messages now that you're a human being that you know, you're not a god, you know, you're just a person happening to be a parent or a coach. that will disappoint happening. I don't think it's the word but you know what I

Steve Bisson: 40:04

know. And that is, you know, obviously you, you know, I talked about you talked about trauma. You know, we've I've had very, very, very amazing coaches when I grew up. I also had a few lousy coaches. And I definitely want to make sure that I am not one of those lousy coaches and not create the trauma where you feel not as good and you don't feel good as a human being, which then really can go into deeper trauma, whether it's at school effectiveness and all that. And and I think that that plays a huge factor in modeling that behavior.

Unknown: 40:34

Oh, I think that's absolutely true. I mean, I remember when I was teacher, junior high, I actually boycotted going to the junior that it was like fifth and sixth and seventh graders, I boycotted go into the games, because the coaches were so abusive to the kids. I was not going to endorse that. And you know, if you think if you're a little kid at home, if there's stuff going on at home, there's trauma at home, you go to school, you want your coach's approval, and there's a whole I don't know a lot about athletics, but I know there's a whole subculture of abusive stuff going on. Even with little kids. It's like this tied to like winning all the time. So it's good that they have someone like you in place, for sure.

Steve Bisson: 41:12

And I want to get back to your book, because one of the things that self sabotage one of the things that really, how can I put this I've embraced for a long time with my clients with my own life, but it talks about that toxic positivity. And, to me, Nothing drives me more absolutely insane as a therapist when people go into toxic positivity. And I don't know, if you wanted to talk a little more on how that can be detrimental and hurt and even make the trauma worse.

Unknown: 41:41

It makes trauma worse, it makes us feel more alone. Toxic positivity is just that inability to have anyone have any feeling that might make you uncomfortable at any time, right. And it's also facilitated by memes all over the internet. And you have to be grateful and this life is difficult life is challenging. And, you know, if you're a safe person, you don't just you know, rah rah someone into being in a better place. Now, there's a difference between people in our lives who are never not in a bad place, you know, but if you're a person who is in the world with people that you love, and someone is having a hard time, the most, I guess the worst thing you can do is belittle them and not be there. But worse, just as almost on the same level as that is like, well, you have so much to be grateful for or you know, your child dies, and at least you have four more at home or things that and that's all coming from a place of discomfort with one's own pain, right? You know, so, um, It enrages me and honestly, it makes people feel alone. That's the same thing with the self help book movement, the movement that's like, if you read this book, you'll be a transformed person. No, I have no and I think the book and parts that that like, this isn't this is a tool, it's not a, you're not going to be a different person, if you read that, that would be a ridiculous claim. And that is a form of toxic toxic positivity that actually makes people feel more isolated and alone. You know, every time I try to reach for help someone's like, well, but you have money or well, but you have friends or well, but at least you have your dogs or Well, at least you have your health, you know, it just diminishes the hurt and it makes you more isolated, which is another trauma reaction. And then that leads to depression, and, you know, all kinds of other things. So I think if you want to be a safe person out there, let people have their feelings, like let people be sad. Has one of my dear friends always says I paid a lot of money to have these feelings like for therapy, you know, she's like, I know, you put a lot of time into to have feelings of being miserable and sad, you know. So I think very few people in this world are able to hold space for other people without trying to fix it. And it's certainly something I need to work on. Like, it's something I'm good at some most of the time, but there's times I tried to fix people's pain. And that's not good. That's not good at all. I mean, I just like everyone else and yourself is a work in progress.

Steve Bisson: 44:04

Absolutely. Love, love. Love that. And as we wrap up here, you know, I wrote my book, too. And I can, yes, you know, my favorite part always changes from week to week. Basically, sometimes it stays for a couple of months. But sometimes it stays for a couple of weeks. And it's another part. But everyone has their favorite part when they write a book, in my opinion. Sometimes people say it's the entirety is a nice statement. But ultimately, there's parts that really strike us. What part of your book would you say is your favorite?

Unknown: 44:34

I think the hope for humanity and the last chapter. They're my favorite parts. I think you haven't gotten there yet. So Manatee and applying is and the reason that it's my favorite is because people think that when you have trauma and in you listen to trauma, that it's all sad. There's absolute redemption, transformation, whatever you want to call it that happens and the fact that anyone even cares to open up any book about trauma, and being a different person is a sign of hope. There's so much good in the world. There's so much joy in the world. There's so many, like we were talking about earlier, so many people that no one will ever know. We're making a massive difference on the planet. You know, I don't know if you've ever watched that show undercover bosses? Okay, well, I used to watch it. And there was one episode, I can't remember it. Maybe it was 711. It was it was a convenience store, and the CEO, whatever went or the owner went, and the woman that worked there was like an angel. And she took it with so much care and so much kindness. And she was so kind to him. And she was so calm and patient in her training of him. And he was just blown away by who she was. Right? Those are the people making a difference. And I think that that, that is important. So that's my favorite chapter. And also, I just want to say, I love that you actually are very comfortable and confident enough to be like, I have a different favorite chapter of my book every time. I love that that's a wonderful thing. And it I want to aspire to be, you know, just so overjoyed about this process as you are. That's amazing, Steve.

Steve Bisson: 46:11

Well, thank you. And I think that for me when I'm reading your chapter, I've haven't gotten that one. So maybe that's my favorite. I don't know yet. But the communal and collective trauma that we're going through with the pandemic and everything else, especially with the first responders that I work with, I work with a lot of people in the healthcare system. So that's really, really my favorite so far, but I'm gonna get to the end, I'll tell you privately, which one if that one trumped it, but it might change. Also, how about you tell us more about how we can get your book how we can reach you and anything else like that?

Unknown: 46:41

Well, yes, it's the nature of the full name of the book is trauma, intelligence, the art of helping in a world filled with pain, and life Landry so you can get it on Amazon, you can get it on my website life landry.com You can get it on Barnes and noble.com. And you can reach me at my Instagram account Blythe Landry coach, you can also reach me through my website, Blythe landry.com. You can reach me on facebook life, Landry. I live in Albuquerque. So my Facebook is public. And it's it's pretty much all work. So you can reach me there. And yeah, if you are interested in corporate coaching, or one on one coaching, any of those spots is a great place to reach me as well.

Steve Bisson: 47:22

Well, I'm gonna put that in the shownotes for sure. I'll put it all there. Light at the I can't believe that it went so fast, like really fast. But I truly truly enjoyed our conversation. Think about and maybe one day, we can do it again and talk about different stuff. And because I think this is a conversation that could last for days,

Unknown: 47:42

I was gonna say we should do this again. And we should break each different type of trauma down, you know, like a different conversation about the different subcategories of trauma because I think that there's something in there that everyone can relate to. Plus, it's just so good to see you. I can see you even though the audience can't. It's so good to connects if too much time has passed. And it's just a joy to be part of this. And I love seeing you thrive the way you are.

Steve Bisson: 48:08

I've watched your career through the same thing. So thank you, but you I see the same thing. And I love you. I can't tell you how much I enjoy following you responding to you. And remember when I'm in Canada, I was trying to find a little something to send to you. Because I know

Unknown: 48:23

I know I love my candidate. Guess it's amazing. I can't wait for the next one. You better get up there again, for a good reason not for loss.

Steve Bisson: 48:30

I'm hoping to be there sooner rather than later. And you're right. I don't want it to be that. When we work about something this hard about trauma. It's a hard conversation. I can't thank you enough for putting it out there working with me on that. And hopefully, not only will people pick up something from this podcast, more importantly, to go pick up your book. Again, I highly I would not recommend something that I don't believe in most people know that about me. Amazing book. Absolutely reachable. And thank you so much for your time.

Unknown: 49:01

Thanks so much, Dave. I'll see you soon.

Steve Bisson: 49:03

Like you said, Well, this concludes episode 23 of finding your way through therapy. Thank you so much blight Landry. That was an amazing conversation. I gotta tell you, I was like, Lis listening to the interview again. And just smiling and thinking about all the stuff that we can, we could have gone to and discussed even more in her book is you know, I'm not saying this because she's my friend. I truly believe that this is a book that is very reachable to so many people. It is not only for professionals, it is for people who may have their own questions about trauma intelligence. And frankly, I think that if you're in the business in general, whether you're a human resources, or any type of work, I think that having this information would be essential to develop your business and also not only a Trump intelligence but your emotional intelligence for what people in your organization may go through. So thank you, Bill. I think that we need to do this again. It was truly like I'm still like I got a big smile thinking about a conversation. Episode 24 will be a review of the whole season. I hope that you join me with that I will give you a little bit of an overview of the whole season so that way maybe you can go back to your favorite episodes or think about that, and hopefully it will be helpful to you. Just a reminder that this is for entertainment purposes and does not does not constitute advice. Please seek a professional if you are struggling with any mental health issues, although we do appreciate your support here on this podcast. Finally, just like and subscribe, and even do a review for my podcasts on any of your favorite platforms always appreciated. And always drop me a line if you want to have a particular thing you want to talk about. So I hope I see you soon