E.26 My Favorite Episode With Maureen Mann

This episode was probably my favorite. In this episode, we talk with Maureen, Holistic treater of trauma.  Maureen specializes in providing spiritual direction with self-empowering support for individuals seeking to live a healthy life in alignment with their unique life purpose. She uses holistic modalities to release trauma and the underlying patterns ​contributing to stress and illness. She also shares a very personal story as to how Reiki has played an intrinsic role with her son. 
We talk about energy medicines, shamanic perspectives and the One major event that lead her to sharing energetic healing with others. 
We talk about how Eastern traditions of medicine has met with Western medicines and how the merger can benefit anyone.

Maureen has a great program to train mental health professionals that can be access via this link:  www.maureenmann.com/training-program

You can also find Maureen on Instagram at: https://www.instagram.com/maureenmann444/

Transcript

Steve Bisson: 0:01

Hi and welcome to finding your way through therapy. I am your host, Steve Bisson. I'm an author and mental health counselor. Are you curious about therapy? Do you feel there is a lot of mystery about there? Do you wonder what your therapist is doing and why? The goal of this podcast is to make therapy in psychology accessible to all by using real language and straight to the point discussions. This podcast wants to remind you to take care of your mental health, just like you would your physical health. therapy should not be intimidating. It should be a great way to better help. I will demystify what happens in counseling, discuss topics related to mental health and discussions you can have what your thoughts I also want to introduce psychology in everyday life. As I feel most of our lives are enmeshed in psychology. I want to introduce the subtle and not so subtle ways psychology plays a factor in our lives. It will be my own mix of thoughts as well as special guests. So join me on this discovery of therapy and psychology. Hi, and welcome to episode 26 of finding your way through therapy. My name is Steve visa. This is what I consider my favorite episode from season two. And it was a tough choice because, you know, obviously you heard the most popular one on Episode 25, which was a very good interview. I enjoyed my conversation with Sarah and money and how it affects mental health. We talked to Jane, I've always enjoyed my conversations with Jay. And I definitely really enjoyed my conversation with light. I also liked my seven dirty words. I liked the fact that we talked about music, and but there's one interview that keeps on resonating in my ears. I still have goosebumps just thinking about it right now. And that's the story of Maureen Mann. And she has you know, she's a holistic trauma healer, and she does a great job with that. But the story that she shares about her son not only shows how important it is to do holistic work and how it can be so impactful. It also touched me to the core and it's such a personal story that I can't even describe right now, so you'll have to listen to the episode. So here is episode 26 with Maureen Mann. Hi, and welcome to episode 17 of finding your way through therapy. I'm Stevie. So today we are going to talk to Maureen Mann. Maureen is someone I've known from working on the crisis team in the past, but her career and my career diverge at some point. And it's very interesting to hear about her 25 year career in mental health and education. She has earned her undergrad degree at University of Massachusetts and her Master's in Social Work at the University of Illinois in Chicago. She continued to pursue some education as time went on from school counselor to principal, to Reiki master to energy medicine practitioner to advanced angelic practitioner and multi dimensional healer. That's a mouthful in itself. I'm really looking forward to this conversation because I don't get to talk a whole lot about my spiritual practice with therapy. And I think it's very important to do so. And I think the Marine is the perfect guest for that. I'm hoping that the conversation goes really well. But since I've known her and we have worked together before, I think that you're going to truly enjoy this conversation. So here is the interview with Maureen. Well, hello, everyone and welcome to finding your way through therapy. I have an exciting guest today. I've known Maureen probably for 1819 years yet this is the first time we've laid eyes on each other and about what 12 years. Probably yes, Maureen man is a holistic treater of trauma. And hopefully what she'll share a lot of that information with us and I'm very excited. As a Reiki practitioner myself, I find that doing that work, especially the spiritual side is very important for healing trauma, healing, mental health healing in general. So very excited to introduce Maureen. Hi, Maureen.

Maureen Mann: 4:04

Hi, Steve. Hello, listeners.

Steve Bisson: 4:07

Early morning. I hope you had your coffee. I have mine here. And what I remember is we work together on a crisis team for a while. And I used to cut I think you come in when I worked the overnight. Yes. And so we were always at opposite times. But you know what I find interesting when I have someone who goes from working to getting you know, you get your degree. And then you go to a certain path of your career. And I always like to hear more about people's paths and obviously you know, part of it, but maybe you can share with the audience a little bit of history of how you got to where you're at today.

Maureen Mann: 4:42

Sure, sure. Happy to. So I got my MSW 25 years ago, and I have been gifted with a really varied career. I think that's one of the great things about having your masters in social work. So first half I was a mental health focus. So I worked in shelters, I worked for nonprofits. I did inpatient psychiatric, I did, like emergency services with you. And last in that gig was educating police officers as first responders to mental health crises. And then my that segue to educating children. On my second child was born, I switched to K 12 education. So I was a high school guidance counselor for a number of years, and then an elementary assistant principal for a number of years, and then I decided to do private practice. So for the last seven and a half years, I've been very joyfully, having my own practice in the field specializing in holistic approaches to mental health care, specifically trauma.

Steve Bisson: 6:00

You know, it's interesting to go from educating, you know, law enforcement, to educating kids. Besides having a child, what makes that leap possible for

Unknown: 6:10

you. I think that part of it is that I'm a proverbial nerd, I love learning. And so teaching is something that I've always held a lot of value in, because I think that the more somebody understands either a topic or themselves, the more empowered they are to face the world. So for me, it was just a matter of wherever I was, the counseling piece was often paired with education and support for me. So I just went further down or further earlier into the lifespan going from adults, to teenagers, to children. And now I'm back on adults.

Steve Bisson: 6:56

You know, it's funny, because, you know, I think about education as part of a lot of what social workers tend to do a little better than mental health counselors, and I'm a mental health counselor. So I can say that, what about education? And we will definitely get to the trauma stuff, but what about education that makes you feel that it brings someone to the next level, so

Unknown: 7:15

to speak? I think that the more somebody can look at a situation both from Alright, what's happening to me right now? And how can I make sense of this? To what else is contributing to why I'm feeling the way that I have who else has experienced this? And how have other people gotten through this? I think it creates more of a sense of belonging to both taking ownership of whatever it is somebody is struggling with, but also a feeling of empowerment, like, Oh, if these people have gone through this, then that means I can to. Or if these people understand this, that means I'm capable of understanding it, too. So

Steve Bisson: 8:08

yeah, and you know, it's interesting that I've done episodes with Sergeant J. Ball from jail diversion program in Framingham, Massachusetts. second interview was done recently. It will be it by the time you we hear this one, we will have already heard Jay. And you know, one of the things that Jay also emphasized, you're absolutely right, it's like education. And one of the concerns we always bring up is that we can't practice every scenario. They just don't exist. I mean, not only for police, but for like mental health. I don't know if you had a special social work school. But you know, I go back to certain things like, people asked me, well, the pandemic, how's it been for you? I said, Well, I missed that class, when I went to my undergrad and my graduate school, so I'm really lost. How do you deal with something that you've never seen before? Obviously, because it's going to happen, and keep that education piece in

Unknown: 9:02

mind? Hmm, great question. So I think that with the variety of life experiences I've had and what I've been exposed to in my career, there isn't much that I can't find relatable in some way. Whether it's, I mean, even if I haven't experienced a pandemic, before, I know what helplessness feels like, I know what loss of control feels like, I know what anxiety, depression as do other people. So it's helping them realize, okay, you haven't been through it like this before. But you have been through X, Y or Z successfully, you have the resilience, you have the tools, we're just going to have to shape them a little bit differently and restore your sense of self. And this is also really, for me where the spirituality piece comes in, in terms of making meaning, and feeling, a greater level of support and guidance than what's right in front of you?

Steve Bisson: 10:13

Well, let's talk about a little bit of the spiritual part will because I agree with you, I believe that we the Mind, Body Spirit, connection is probably helps what helps the most for us to be stabilized in general. But talk a little more about spirituality and mindfulness and stuff like that, that would help someone, for example, with a pandemic or anything like that.

Unknown: 10:37

Sure. So, through my whole life, I would say I've had this intrigue with what's going on behind the scenes. And realizing that the end just intuitively feeling like there's this loving governing force in the universe, and how you name that isn't as important as just believing it, or believing it slightly more than you disbelieve it, because I think skepticism is healthy. And being a questioner, I think is really important, not just going hook, line and sinker into any sort of faith practice or any spiritual belief. So for me, it's always been about my curiosity, combined with believing that humanity is essentially good. And we are meant to be supported while were living on Earth. So then, for me, that led to exploring energy medicine, and seeing how the body holds our stress, and how people talk about their stress as it relates to their body and their physical symptoms. And it's, so that became like a fun puzzle for me when I was in energy medicine school and getting certified. And then using it in my practice is hearing how people say, Oh, my gosh, my shoulders are killing me. And it's somebody who's carrying the weight of the world on their shoulders where they're overly burdened, or how people's gastrointestinal symptoms act up when they're anxious, or if they're not listening to their intuition. So being able to point out to people, how their body is speaking to them, I think, is really empowering. And then I also have done a lot of work with angelic studies, understanding the archangels, how to develop your intuition, and to get support from your spiritual support team. So those are all and that's very practical. That's the other thing. Using your intuition and getting in touch with the universe or spirit or your guides, however you want to name it is a very practical way to go through life. Nobody says to the Wall Street mogul, oh, you listen to your gut on that tip about a stock and you made a million dollars. Nobody says they shouldn't do that. They sort of applaud them for it. So why wouldn't it be the case with your health? And widen? Wouldn't it be the case with your relationships and career decisions?

Steve Bisson: 13:31

I agree so, so much. And you know, part of the stuff that I talked about with a lot of folks who say how do you do therapy, mostly instinct. It's not overly thought, but not that I didn't think about it before had education behind it. But really, it's like kind of instincts and it just plays a huge factor. And you know, when you think about how your ailments represent some of the psycho social stuff that you're going through, you know, I think that we learned psychosomatic really well, but we don't really study it and where it comes from, and all that which probably leads a little more to the questions in regards to the holistic treatment of trauma, I think. Can you define that a little more for me, because even someone like me who really embraces that side, I'm not quite sure I know what that means.

Unknown: 14:21

Okay. Yeah, I think it's a confusing term because it envelops so much. So I think that holistic means specifically different things to different people. But it's looking at the connection between the mind the body and the spirit. However you do that for some people, it's through shamanic traditions. For some people, it's crystals. For other people. It's from well, I will say for me, it's the combination sense of energy, medicine, and spirituality. Those are my two main modalities that I use in holistic treatment.

Steve Bisson: 15:13

Just a reminder, we're listening to finding your way through therapy sitting here. My name is Steve, I'm sitting here with Maureen, one of the words that you use was energy medicine. So the old Steve would have thought that, you know, we're using some sort of nuclear physics in order to. But obviously, that is not what you mean. And that is obviously something I've kind of defined differently since then. How about you? How would you define energy medicine? Because I think that for some people, that can be confusing.

Unknown: 15:43

Okay, so I define energy medicine as looking at energy anatomy. Just as if you're in medical school, you look at biology. So the way the body works with an overlay of the chakra system, the different energy centers in the body. So it's assessing, and then exploring with the person that you're working with, okay, what do you think this means, and then doing the work on releasing whatever the imbalance is, or the symptoms are in the body. And there are a number of techniques that you can use, even if you're not certified in any energy, medicine, practice, or modality, then you can use visualization, you can use mindfulness, you can use meditation to relieve your body of the pain of carrying the stress and the trauma that it that it is.

Steve Bisson: 16:49

I think that makes sense. But maybe again, we'll go into more detail about that because I, again, I'm a Reiki practitioner, and from each chakra is makes a whole lot of sense. Now, if someone has no clue what a chakra is, I know there's seven but I will turn to the expert versus meat. So how would you kind of like describe the seven chakras and also kind of explain it a little bit to different people that may not get for lack of a better word woowoo stuff like we like?

Unknown: 17:19

Well, you know, what's funny is the chakra is date back longer than the current Western medicine, tradition in terms of energy anatomy, and treating illness. Chakras are, think of it spinning wheels of energy in the body that align with different organs, muscles, thinking patterns, and emotional states. So the seven, the main seven chakras in the body, they go from the root, which is at the base of the spine, all the way up to the crown of the head. And so just for an example, a root chakra issue has to do with creating a sense of safe safety, stability, connection in the world. So the parts of the body that are affected by the Root Chakra, or the legs, the feet, the hips, and the immune system. So relating it to what's going on in the world. Right now. We're facing a global pandemic, of a virus that has really up ended everybody's sense of safety and security in the world. And that compromises the immune system. So you can see how it's not just physically what's affected. But also if you don't feel safe, it's really hard to access the resources that you need to to support yourself and your loved ones makes you feel alienated and isolated and alone, which is another symptom of this pandemic is how isolated people are feeling and then the mental health challenges that come as a result of that.

Steve Bisson: 19:09

And I definitely saw the root chakra being very affected by many people because we were not grounded because we would get new information we would get Yes, false information, we would not know if the information is accurate or not. And I think that the grounding really affected a whole lot of people and I still feel that we're going to be affected by that for several years in my opinion. But one of the other things that I would want to know more about because I What I've also seen in my practice and maybe I don't know if you've seen that yourself, I've seen a crown also kind of exploding the the people's really struggling with their thought process and stuff like that. But do you want to talk more about the crown chakra which is at the very top of your head for those of you who can't see us just just staring to the top of the head right now. But what would you want to talk more about that because I feel like that's is really impactful right now, especially when you think about trauma and the stuff that we're going through.

Unknown: 20:04

Yes, yes. Great idea. So, think of it this way, if the Root Chakra is contracted, that means someone's sort of floating in ungrounded, which means that the upper chakras then are overactive. So the thinking about things, the crown chakra is what connects us to infinite possibilities to believing that we're supported to that sense of that the universe has our back. So for some people, when they go through a crisis, the the crown chakra opens, because it's like, okay, what I've been doing hasn't been working. So I need to look for other ways to process this and to come to terms with this. So they're more open to alternative ways of viewing a situation and coping. And that means the crown chakra opens. And you want the crown chakra to always be open, because you want to be getting new downloads and new information from the world about what's happening, and how you can navigate life and how you're supported. If the Crown Chakra is closed, then cover the door closing and the off the top of your head, then what happens is you're going to move down to the sixth chakra, which is right between your eyes. That's about how you see yourself how you perceive the world and your thoughts. So if that door to the crown is closed, then what's happening is you're just ruminating on the same thoughts over and over and over again. And if you've been through trauma, or you're in the midst of trauma, then you're just recycling these anxious, depressed thoughts over and over again. And that depresses the body and creates dis ease or symptoms in the body. So it's really important to keep the crown chakra open, so that you have that flow of insight coming in. I love

Steve Bisson: 22:03

your explanation, I think that you did much better than I could ever do it. So thank you for that. You're welcome. And let's get a little more about the holistic side of trauma. When we talk about chakras, you said the main seven, you know, I've heard different numbers on how many chakras there would be in your body. But those are the main seven. When you think about trauma, which of the chakras Do you feel gets the brunt of it, for lack of a better word in regards to being

Unknown: 22:31

unbalanced? That's a really good question. Chakras don't operate in isolation. So let's say you take a hit to the first chakra, the shock waves are going to reverberate out to the other seven. But generally, the lower three chakras first, second, and third are what a lot of people are coping with first chakra trauma second, and second is the emotional center. And third is the will center, like your self esteem, and your self worth. So traumas in those areas are pretty much where most people struggle.

Steve Bisson: 23:10

That's usually around the intestines around the digestive system.

Unknown: 23:15

Yes, yes. Great. Life is hard to digest.

Steve Bisson: 23:21

And I agree with you rebalancing the whole seven chakras can take time. How does holistic treatment work in regards to that? So if someone comes in has been through therapy before, struggles with it, and not able to get through the traumas, whatever XYZ reason, everybody is different, everybody will deal with their treatment differently. How would you take a holistic approach to someone who may be isolating right now and I know many people who are unable to leave their houses at this point, since the beginning of the pandemic, in March of

Unknown: 23:55

2020. So connection would be really important to restore for someone going through trauma, where isolation is a factor. And if they cannot be directly connected to other people, at least getting a connection to themselves, to their body, and to their spiritual side, whether that's the universe or their spiritual support team, however they want to say it. So the holistic approach to trauma would be building a sense of safety in the body, building a sense of okay, I can comfort myself by doing X, Y, and Z. So building up their self care menu, looking at really practical ways to ground we were talking about grounding earlier, exploring what those options that are reasonable that they could engage in, that vary from simply as getting out in nature, which has really restorative benefits to live Listening to certain music, to what you choose to bring into your visual field. So it's using the five senses in our world, but on a deeper level. And then for me, I do a lot of energy healing with my clients. So what I'll do is I'll, we'll talk through whatever's going on for part of the session. And then I'll conduct an energy healing for them to balance all of the chakras at once, and then have them speak to their experience of the healing. And most often, I'll hear people say, I'm so surprised that I'm this relaxed after 15 minutes, because they come in holding so much tension, or have really short breath because of anxiety, or a pain that they've had in their neck or in their body somewhere just lessons in intensity or goes away. So that's how I integrate the holistic measures into my practice. And then also the with the more of the spiritual piece, while I'm doing an energy healing, I'll often get messages of practical guidance about how to understand what they're going through and what they can do to support themselves. I'm gonna be sarcastic

Steve Bisson: 26:21

here. So basically, what you're telling me is, I see you for 15 minutes, and I should be good.

Unknown: 26:28

No. Would you bring your car to get filled the gas station once and say, I'm all set? This is gonna run me.

Steve Bisson: 26:39

I was getting my car warmed up. I was gonna go see you right now. 15 minutes. I'm like, that sounds like a good deal. Of course, we wouldn't put gas only once in the car. For those who say that it takes, you know, people are looking for quick answers nowadays. And I don't offer quick answers. I never pretended to offer quick answers. How do we get people to think about it as something that is not as instantaneous? Because you feel better in 15 minutes, but you got to keep on working on it. Yes. So how do we make that more palpable for people to hear that? Because I think that already, I'm sure that if I had given him the phone number, prior to us talking, you would have had like 14 phone calls? 15 minutes? That's my deal. I want to do that. So how do we tell people well, it doesn't take 15 minutes, it may take a little longer.

Unknown: 27:28

That Well, it may just like if you go to the ER, you're going to be triaged, and you're going to get immediately immediate relief from whatever brought you in there. But to maintain your health, you can't ignore everything that is required of you. So yes, the good thing about energy healing is that it does provide immediate relief. And a relaxed system is generally more open to healing, and insight and clarity. So you're boosting your immune system, which is treating the symptoms making you more relaxed, more motivated to take better care of yourself, and provide a deeper of a deeper level of understanding of how to take care of yourself. So in building resilience for whatever happens in the future, so it's treating in the moment, but it's also giving you this extra bit of reserves to help you with whatever's coming next.

Steve Bisson: 28:30

The rule of thumb that I tell people is I like Kristen Bell quoted her therapists and due to HIPAA, we don't know who her therapist is. But I always liked this statement. She had said that her therapist had said you can't expect to walk 10 miles within a forest and get out into. And I when I talk about treatment, especially with the holistic side, I'll bring you some relief, like you said, like the ER analogy, but it's been 10 years, it's been five years, it's been two years or 20 years, whatever it is, um, that 15 minutes ain't gonna cut it. We're going to work on it a more consistent basis. Yes, yes. And I think that that's what you're trying to say. Do you think that we underestimate how much work we have to do in regards to healing trauma because for specifically trauma, the rule of thumb that I kind of tell people is that if it's been 10 years, we're probably looking at roughly half that time to really help the healing go through doesn't mean it's five notes, a rule of thumb, it could be to compete, whatever the case may be. Do you feel that that's something that is a good message or do you feel like that's also short shortchanging or pushing it or what's your thoughts on that?

Unknown: 29:41

I like how you that you framed it that I think giving people a realistic expectation of how quickly they're going to be able to move through a trauma to resolve it depends on a number of factors, but to remind them if it took time for it to sink itself into your body, it is going to take a little bit of time to release it from the cells in your body. But you're worth it. That's the biggest thing like people need to get the message that they're worth. And they are capable of whatever it takes, or however long it takes. The I will say that, since I started integrating the holistic modalities and spirituality into my practice, even before I did my private practice, just in general, when I would relate to people at my jobs, and mental health and education, people do move through trauma much quicker using holistic tools and straight talk therapy. Yeah, as an

Steve Bisson: 30:43

EMDR. practitioner, myself, too, I find that EMDR is so beneficial for that. And I feel that people get the instant relief. I think that one of the aspects of EMDR does not talk about enough, in my opinion, is that you will get relief. It's not going to be that relief, that's going to be forever. There's got to be some structure behind it, whether it's, I believe in a very high spiritual side in order to heal some of it. Speaking of EMDR, I threw that out there and yeah, EMDR is eye movement desensitization and reprocessing. A lot of people think it's hypnotherapy. That is not I'm gonna plug in my own book for a second here, you can look at my book, it talks about it. And Francine Shapiro wrote a beautiful book on that that you can look at. But when you think about EMDR, what are your thoughts? Because it does embrace a different type of therapy, because it is not the traditional therapy that most people think about. What are your thoughts on EMDR?

Unknown: 31:40

I think it's a fantastic modality clients of mine that have accessed it, have only had positive things to say. And they've been actually stunned by how effective it is at treating trauma. So I am an advocate for it.

Steve Bisson: 31:56

And we're listening to finding your way through therapy, Steve is the host, Maureen is the guest. And yes, EMDR is something that I've been practicing for about five or six years, it is very, very gratifying to watch people get through it. My view of EMDR is slightly different. A lot of people wonder what works. And I think that the bilateral movement does help. But I also believe that the therapist has to be fairly sit back and just validate a lot more, and doesn't have any advice. And I think that that's the part that really gets to people. That way, you can have your own thoughts, you're validated for your own thoughts, and it can move you from that trauma. But that's just my view of EMDR. So if you disagree, you can email me, but that's how I view it. So let's move a little bit to the side of holistic trauma treatment. And how do we explain that that therapists because I've worked with a lot of therapists that can be why find is there a dichotomy? Sometimes with therapist, I go from practical that CBT works, that's what we got to do. And if not, it's psychoanalytic, or DBT or whatever it initials that we're going to talk about. And then the other side, we're everyone goes, not everyone, there's another group that goes to it's only spirituality, it is only holistic, that's going to work. How do we explain to therapists that both sides can coexist number one in treatment, and be really explained a holistic side that may not be in any quote, I don't know how to even frame it. We don't talk about it in school a whole lot. So how do we explain to a therapist that may be more rigid in regards to treatment, which does work, don't get me wrong, but needs that spiritual side and the spiritual people who just think no, no, spirituality is the only way to go? Which again, I don't think is the only solution

Unknown: 33:46

either. Yeah, I totally agree with you. I mean, we live in a time that it's pretty great that we have the traditional Western research base modalities. And then we also have all of the holistic and it's a time to access both and learn how to blend them. So in terms of helping therapists understand the veracity of using holistic measures, they think that there's more and more journal articles being written. And there's more and more research being done in hospitals and hospices on using energy healing. I know that Dana Farber, and the Mass General system uses Reiki for their cancer patients. I know that one of the local hospitals in Massachusetts uses it for women on the maternity unit. And consistently I've read a number of studies that show that if you administer energy healing to somebody, specifically Reiki because that's one of the modalities that I use the most. But if you administer Reiki to somebody pre and post surgery, they need less anesthesia. And their recovery time is shortened. Wow. So there's finally a library of documentation that is proving this for people that need to have the evidence based before they buy into something. If you don't have that, then just asking therapists and they're being honest, they're going to say yes, do you ever feel burned out or frustrated by your inability to get the treatment results that you want with your clients? Using what you know. And why not be open to trying something different? It doesn't mean you have to supplant what you already do. It's more weaving it in.

Steve Bisson: 35:52

That's fantastic. That study, you know, if you ever have it handy, just send it to me, because I love that because I did not know that it was studied. I know that there has been some studies on Reiki and different modalities. And, you know, I will give props to my ex wife, who brought me to Reiki and also trained me and also has given me some research on that so that more research to better. And we are lucky to live in a world now where Western meets Eastern, and be able to marry both sides. But I also want to be the therapist that I want to be credit, I'm going to be saying, well, as a therapist, let's say I say to you, all right, well, that's five studies. I mean, come on very seriously, you're gonna take this seriously. And obviously, I'm not trying to provoke you here. I'm just trying to show what I've heard multiple times. How would you kind of like, nicely tell them that it does work?

Unknown: 36:46

Well, I have had the opportunity to witness what you could call miraculous results with people in my life, both personally and professionally using. So I've taken the approach that it's not my job to convince anybody of anything. But if people are open, then I'm happy to have a conversation with them. If they if they're too threatened by it, or they're too closed off, that's fine. There's plenty of other people who can do this work. Right. And if people feel like CBT is their wheelhouse, then let them keep using that because they will attract clients that need just that modality. And that will be treated well. But I think in general, there's more and more people that are looking for something a little bit more than the old standbys. I agree wholeheartedly. If you want me to share a couple of my anecdotal stories, I can do that? Well,

Steve Bisson: 37:51

because this will exist forever in a recording and I don't want hippo to come down by my throat. Well, let's probably just talk in generalities if you don't mind.

Unknown: 38:00

Okay, they were I was actually going to give two examples from my personal life about the efficacy of energy healing.

Steve Bisson: 38:07

I have many stories like that, too. But you go ahead.

Unknown: 38:10

Okay. So it actually this one connects to why I even jumped ship from education to start my private practice full time, I had been doing it part time up to this. So when I was an assistant principal, my kids were school aged. And my son was nine years old, and fourth grade, and was blinded by a laser pointer, both of his eyes and Boston doctors said, first of all, we had the laser pointer tested. And it was almost 25 times the strength of what laser pointers are supposed to be sold at. So they said, the strength of this laser is what we use in surgery for colorization. So they said he is going to be blind for the rest of his life. And they got us hooked up with all services. He was at Perkins School for the Blind, and with the mass commission. And so I immediately went into Okay, when they told us Western medicine can do nothing for him. It says retinas you can't prepare the retinas. They showed us the burns in his eyes. And I said that is way too definitive and devastating for a nine year old to have to live with for the rest of his life. So broaden to acupuncture. And I did Reiki for him daily for six months and then scaled it back and then asked to as often as he would allow me too, but then asked other energy healers to work with him. Fast forward. And we started seeing improvement in the scans of his eyes and this is what I love. because there was proof that he was healing. So the burns were getting smaller and smaller every year. And his doctor at Tufts, said, I'm glad that I was wrong. He said, Your son's prognosis he that he was the worst case study that ever seen from a laser pointer firm. But my son is now known in the clinic as the kid that got better. And he now has better vision than I do. And he will be able to drive. And he can read books, again, nothing is a big fan of reading books, but he can access text. So it even his doctor at Perkins said, that's because of the Reiki. He said, There's there's nothing else to account for how he healed so quickly over the course of five years, and to the extent that he did. So that goes back to what we were talking about earlier, it wasn't a quick fix, my son didn't get his eyesight back, immediately, it was over the course of five years. But the Reiki helped him not only with the physical injury, but also coping on an emotional level with the trauma of losing your sight, and having to have a one on one in school and not being able to see kids heads and faces and that sense of vulnerability. So the Reiki helped him with all of that, and helped me as a parent, with coping with the trauma. So I hope that that wow, demonstrates my passion and conviction about this.

Steve Bisson: 41:50

I gotta tell you, that's a powerful story. And because we haven't talked in so long, it did not know that that's just, you know, I'm, I'm speechless right now. And I'm so happy for you and for your son, and certainly made you really embrace the path that you're in now. I wish I had words right now. But that's powerful story. So I really appreciate you sharing.

Unknown: 42:10

You're welcome.

Steve Bisson: 42:11

Just a quick break, during this great interview, to remind you that my book, finding your way through therapy is available at Amazon, Barnes and Nobles, as well as any other e book provider that you have, including some local bookstores in Massachusetts, the reason I bring it up is because there's a few chapters in my book that are very relatable to what we are talking about. I talked about spirituality in chapter six. And I really think that that's a great read for those who want to have more exploration on the stuff that we talked about. And chapter nine, which is very important to me, because I think that sometimes we forget that trauma and PTSD are not the same. So I'm hoping that you can look at my book, pick it up at Barnes and Nobles, Amazon, or any ebook store that you can go to, it is really worth the read.

Unknown: 43:00

And honestly, that's once I saw what it could do for him and do for me, and the receptivity of the medical profession to his healing. Like, I know that this will help other people cope with emotional issues and psychiatric traumas, as well as whatever stress they have in their body and whatever symptoms they have in their body, whether it was acute pain, or chronic pain. So that's why I took the leap of faith and said, Okay, this is what I'm doing.

Steve Bisson: 43:37

And I think that when there's definitely like, I liked the word that you use this was to definite. And I think that that's what people struggle with, in regards to spirituality, is to embrace things that you may not always understand. And nothing is definite in this world. You know, I think about the story of your son. And it's just, I mean, again, this is just amazing. And I've seen it with Reiki, whether it's back pains, or problems with anxiety, I think that, you know, I don't have that spectacular of a story as you do. But I agree with you wholeheartedly and something's, something's we can't explain doesn't mean they don't work.

Unknown: 44:18

Right. Right.

Steve Bisson: 44:21

And that's a little bit of maybe a good transition to how to talk to clients about that, because I feel like I do that with a lot of my clients who struggle with the spiritual side, the holistic side that I've sometimes embrace, and as many, many people who'd listen, they know I work with a lot of first responders. And that's not exactly the woowoo crowd. But having said that, how do we help clients really embrace more of that holistic treatment of different things that go on in their lives?

Unknown: 44:55

I think meeting them where they are is important. And like I was saying before, We're listening to how they talk about their health. And I mean, the mind body connection for stress is no longer a novelty in 75 to 90% of PCP visits are stress related. So people know when I'm, when I'm stressed, this happens to my body. So it's sort of like starting from that point. And saying, I wonder if there's a connection between x and y. Have you ever tried such and such to lessen the pain there? Or have you ever noticed that when you talk to this person, that your headache gets worse, but when you're around somebody like this, you feel a lot better. So helping them be more aware of the subtleties of their own day to day, and how they invest themselves in their relationships, what they're giving to people, and how they feel after, like, I was saying after certain conversations, or just being in dirt in certain environments, and then building on that. And then you can ask people, what their, what their spiritual beliefs are, and what their spiritual practices are. And just go from there and ask them and sort of say, Okay, what does that mean to you? What's your meditation practice? Like? What's your prayer practice life? And if they like, and if they say nothing, say, Okay? Studies have shown that meditation can really help with managing anxiety, depression, trauma, pain, is that something you'd be open to? And there's all sorts of different types of meditation to recommend and all sorts of resources you can recommend, and it usually blossoms from there.

Steve Bisson: 46:51

And I think that one of the things that people get frightened of is that they think that because you just said embrace meditation, for example. I gotta go meditate. 60 minutes a day, in order, Josh know exactly. But maybe we could speak a little more about that. How I explain it is I make most of my clients who are willing to do it, obviously, close their eyes, take a deep breath, hold and let go. And is that if you only thought about your, your breathing for that half that what five seconds, four seconds? That's a spiritual practice, that is mindfulness right there. Even if you do it for half a second, at least you're paying attention to yourself, do you feel that that helps with individuals to just present it in a very simple way? Or do you feel it's detrimental to our more holistic approach to different things?

Unknown: 47:38

I think the way you present it is great, because it's helping people realize that every little bit that you do for yourself matters. Everything that you do changes your body chemistry. And so if you can just pause for a breath, five breaths, five minutes, 10 minutes a day. That's fantastic. It did meditating doesn't mean you have to sit on a cushion in the cross legged position, chanting home for an hour, who has time for that is not practical.

Steve Bisson: 48:15

I always laugh because when I hear that, I remember that quote from they say it's Buddha. But I don't know if he said it. So well. If you have, you know, if you have time, do a five minute meditation every day. But if you don't have any time, do it for 60 minutes. And whenever I hear that, that's the joke that comes to mind. I'm pretty sure Buddha said something like that he seemed to be a guy who had a sense of humor in some ways.

Unknown: 48:39

So it's a great quote,

Steve Bisson: 48:41

as we wrap up here, because I can't believe it went that fast. Wow, it did. Let's talk over like, we're not only clients, not only therapists, but just the general population. You know, I'm, I tell people, and I've joke that I'm a recovering Catholic, who is now re embraced a little bit of Catholicism, because Buddhism is just that wonderful for that in regards to different spiritual belief systems. How do we present to different people, when people say, well, that's too woowoo for me, are you crazy, or I've heard many, many other things that I want to try to keep this as PG as I can, or else I have to do that explicit check mark for my podcast. How do we let the general population kind of embrace that idea?

Unknown: 49:25

Well, I think that when when people dismiss anything, it's out of fear. Because what can't be seen is often invalidated and what people don't understand is often invalidated or mocked, or dismissed. So if people are labeling something woowoo or saying they don't want to be seen as woowoo there's a part of them that's afraid of changing their belief system. So just respecting that and not trying to force anything. But thing. Are you open to hearing This experience or this anecdote, you don't have to believe it. But I just want to help you feel better in ways that you might not be aware of yet. Something to consider. Just sit with it. Because I think the other thing is, we will brings up the end of the spectrum, like you were saying the people that think that only spirituality is the answer, right. And that's not balanced. Or practical, I'm very big on practical. Like, you have to be grounded in the world and living in the world. Right. And spirituality can help with that. So if if you present it, it's something that is helpful, versus escapist, or something to be condemned for, I think people will have an easier time accepting it in and then eventually, maybe embracing it.

Steve Bisson: 50:57

I think we use the same language you say practical, and they say realistic. And I think that kind of how I perceive the world also make it realistic. You brought up I was going to wrap it up, but you brought up something that I find is very prevalent, right now in the world, which is fear. I think that we do a lot of things based on fear alone. How would a holistic treatment help address some of those fears?

Unknown: 51:26

Great question. First, acknowledging and validating the fear, naming it and saying, sounds like you're a little anxious about this or sound like this is something you worry about. And because sometimes people don't even realize that's what's going on. And then exploring, where did that come from? Where did that belief come from? Or is this something that you hear yourself thinking a lot? And how does it affect you? And then teaching them that evolutionary wise, yes, there is a hardwired part of our brain that wants to keep us alert to danger. We aren't running away from saber toothed Tigers anymore. So yes, the brain is going to tell us that there's something to be afraid of. But with compassion, and understanding and information, we can also speak to the other part of our brain and our intuition, which tells us how to be safe, and brings the relaxation response to the body and says, okay, yes, you do have to deal with this. And we're going to talk about how to deal with this legitimate fear. But it doesn't have to overpower you or make you sick, or isolated.

Steve Bisson: 52:49

On that note, I think that this is a great way to conclude our interview, Maureen, I can't thank you enough. Very happy that we connected it's, it's been way too long. Maybe we need to set up coffee or something at some point very soon. I would like that, but not only for me. But I'm sure that some people in the audience might want to reach you in some way. So where can we reach you and get more information on the treatment that you do and stuff like that?

Unknown: 53:16

I would love that. So I can be reached at Maureen mann.com That's my website. And then on social media, my Facebook is Maury man spiritual counseling. And on Instagram, it's Maury man 444. And I'm also on LinkedIn under my name. So

Steve Bisson: 53:37

and man spelled M A N N Just for the record. Yes.

Unknown: 53:41

Yes, Ma, u r e n, m a n n,

Steve Bisson: 53:45

just in case someone doesn't know I've made that mistake multiple times with different people. But Maureen, thank you so much. This was an amazing conversation. I hope we connect soon. I hope people connect with you Maureen very soon also, because I think that you have such a again, I fallen realistic when you say practical, but we'll meet in the middle. We say both and I really appreciated

Unknown: 54:10

your time. Oh, thank you so much, Steve. This was wonderful. Thank you. Thank you for having me.

Steve Bisson: 54:16

Well, that is it for episode 17. Thank you so much. Marine manda was a great conversation. I like how she talked about practical and I talked about realism. But more importantly I really liked that we talked about what I call the Trinity of Mind Body Spirit and we both have the same direction in regards to debt. So I hope that it was helpful for many if you have more questions or you want to contact Maureen directly. Her website is Ww w dot Marine man.com her Instagram is similar it's marine man for for Ford and her Facebook is marine man LIC SW so I hope you take the time to go and follow or live Make her pages. And definitely ask her questions because it really is important to have that spiritual conversation particularly with trauma, which is very unique view of the holistic treatment. Well, that concludes episode 26 of finding your way through therapy. Thank you so much marine man, not only because of our conversation about holistic approaches, our conversation about mental health, while you're touching stories still gives me goosebumps, and I can't thank you enough for that. Next episode is episode 27. Or episode one of season three. Yes, we're already on season three, which is awesome. So I appreciate all your support. We're going to talk about sports. Now. Why should I talk about sports? Didn't I talk about sports this summer? And mental health and sports? Yes. But now let's talk about why we should make it a conversation in therapy and why I use it as a therapeutic tool. So I hope that you join me for the premiere episode of season three, Episode 27 Overall, and I want to thank you for continuing to support this podcast. It means the world to me. So thank you, does the season and I'm feeling very generous. So let's go with a contest. Here's the contest, you will be writing me an email to my email address. It's my full name Steve de sol lmhc@gmail.com. I'll put it in the show notes and write contest in the subject line and why you liked the podcast. What what are the prizes? Well, let's start with the most important prize obviously, which is my book. So finding a way through therapy so one person will win my book finding your way through therapy. Another prize will be blight. Landry's book trauma intelligence and that will be another person will win that. And the grand prize will be someone who wins both books. So remember to email me with the word contests, and write down what you've enjoyed from my podcasts. And I will also add you to my mailing list. So please do so before December 31. That's when I will close it down. And you can go in and participate in the contest once a month. So you can do one in November one in December and we'll announce it in January. So looking forward to hearing from you and good luck. Please like, subscribe or follow this podcast on your favorite platform. A glowing review is always helpful. And as a reminder, this podcast is for information, educational, and entertainment purposes. If you're struggling with a mental health or substance abuse issue, please reach out to a professional counselor or therapist for consultation.