E.31 A Conversation With Robyn L. Garrett About Company Leadership and Mental Health

In this episode, I speak to Robyn L. Garrett about her work with leaders in big companies around mental health, trauma, and how she gives them courage to change the world. We discuss how to put people over profits in company, how to guide a new generation of leaders, and how to get leaderships in companies to be trauma-informed in their work. We also discuss how to change the way to communicate in companies by eliminating shame based statements, and modelling supportive behaviors.

You can find Robyn's book on her website here
You can also go to her website here to see more about her mission, as well as advisory board positions
Robyn's Courageous Leadership TikTok page is available at this link

Transcript

Steve Bisson: 0:01

Hi and welcome to finding your way through therapy. I am your host, Steve Bisson. I'm an author and mental health counselor. Are you curious about therapy? Do you feel there is a lot of mystery about there? Do you wonder what your therapist is doing and why? The goal of this podcast is to make therapy and psychology accessible to all by using real language and straight to the point discussions. This podcast wants to remind you to take care of your mental health, just like you would your physical health. therapy should not be intimidating, it should be a great way to better help. I will demystify what happens in counseling, discuss topics related to mental health and discussions you can have what your thoughts, I also want to introduce psychology in everyday life. As I feel most of our lives are enmeshed in psychology. I want to introduce the subtle and not so subtle way psychology plays a factor in our lives. It will be my own mix of thoughts as well as special guests. So join me on this discovery of therapy and psychology. Hi, and welcome to episode 31 of finding your way through therapy. I am Steve Bisson. So if you haven't listened to Episode 30, I urge you to do so I know we're past January 1, but episode 30 is about resolutions, and how to make them stick. So please take time to go listen to it. I think it's worthwhile. But episode 31 will be with Robyn L Garrett. She's the founder and CEO of beam Iblis. And she works to give young leaders to courage the need to change the world. She worked with several startups when she originally started in this work and became tired of working with leaders that put profit before people. And what really got me going and wanting Robyn on the podcast is that she talks about leadership, and how to make leadership more aware of being trauma informed and also talk about mental health as essential as physical health. And she also has a book she's going to talk about that hopefully during the podcast. And the book is called Be true to yourself the personal values notebook, and maybe we'll even touch on her tiktoks and how she talks about making yourself 1% better every day. So here is the interview. Hi, and welcome to episode 31. I'm sitting here with Robin L. Garrett Robin, I got to tell you that, you know, it really impressed me listening to your tech talks. And I'm not much of a Tiktok guy per se. And my kids say I'm boring because I listened to more of that mental health type side of it. And they say my Tiktok is boring, which is fine. But there's nothing boring about yours I really enjoy. So that's how I really got to know you. So that's the first time we meet. And I always enjoy doing these. So welcome, Robin.

Robyn L. Garrett: 2:39

Thank you so much, Steve, it's great to be on. I'm glad you're following the tech talks. I agree, I think I have really been enjoying the amount of community that is available on Tiktok. So you can find me on there at courageous leadership. And that's what my focus is, right? I'm trying to help create a generation of leaders that have a lot of courage that use a lot of empathy, focus on inclusion. And I'm really excited to do that. And it's been a wonderful time because we've gotten such a positive response.

Steve Bisson: 3:09

I'll definitely put it in the show notes so people can go and follow you. I certainly follow you. And I'm always enjoyed. But I think what most of my interviews start off is getting to know a person. So tell me a little bit about yourself, Robin?

Unknown: 3:22

Sure. Yeah. So I have been working in startups for my entire career. And as many people have experienced, those can be very fast paced environments. I started as a human, a young 22 year old, became a manager at 22. So I was responsible for entire departments and divisions of a, you know, medium sized company. And so worked across those environments for many years, and learned so much along the way. And eventually, something that I started to think more about was, I've been able to have an a positive influence on the people who are on my team and a positive influence on the organization's around me. But I think there's something bigger here. In the last three years of my career, I worked with executives all across the globe, we were doing leadership coaching. And it was really fantastic to see what kind of influence you could have when you're working with executives. They're interested in making a difference. They're interested in something big, but really where my heart lies is working with younger individuals really inspired to see how hard working and how passionate people can be about doing good and having positive causes in the world. And so I thought to myself, do I want to spend the next significant portion of my life focusing on individuals that are already established and have found success in their careers and decided what they want to do and how they want to do it? Or do I want to invest in the next generation and create something that's really just for them? So that's why I created the Mobley that's my new company that I've just established in this last year. We are a leadership development firm erms for individuals who are interested in changing the world. And our goal is to help give them the courage and the techniques and tools that they need to be able to achieve that goal.

Steve Bisson: 5:11

Well, first of all, I got to tell you that that's what I love about your tech talks and talks about a lot of different things like that, we'll get to the tiktoks. Obviously, the other thing that I would say to you is that I am a huge fan of Brene, brown, and Brene, brown, daring leadership stuff is something that resonates deeply with me. And what you bring to it that I feel is different is really concentrating on the younger generation, which I think gets at times a bad rap. At times, justifiably, I will be honest, but I think that sometimes, majority of the time it gets a bad rap. So I think that your concentration on that really helps.

Unknown: 5:47

Yeah, you know, so I am a millennial. I'm 35. And so I've certainly experienced throughout my entire career, sort of a what I find to be an untrue sort of a myth that young people are lazy. And even I'll say, personally, I've internalized that message quite a bit feel like you have to prove that you're not lazy, right? I certainly do not find that with the youngest generation. Now. I started getting resumes, let me think, probably at least seven years ago. And I was blown away by the quality of these resumes, internships, externships, projects, research, the amount of work that young people are expected to do these days is astronomical. So I know that there's tremendous potential there, where I think there's a really big gap is they're still getting this message that nothing can change, what they do doesn't matter, and that they have to work within existing systems. But I think what we've certainly been seeing over the last 18 months to two years is that those systems are nowhere near as impenetrable as they once were, it's very easy to watch an old dinosaur crumble these days, and you can see it happen with honestly, with one bad PR move for one really bad leadership move both financially and sort of socially, those giants can fall. And so I'm not necessarily wishing for anything like that. But what I really think is important is to reestablish what is leadership? What is the purpose of it? What does good leadership look like? And another area that I'm quite interested in, sort of kind of recognizing this difference between what exists and what could be, is, there's a little bit of a lack of role models, role models, who exhibit the types of qualities that are going to be necessary for the future. When I asked an individual, you know, who do you think of as a good leader, they'll often tell me about an individual in their life, that's more of what we call command and control style. So that somebody who has all the ideas, makes all the decisions tells everybody what to do. Those systems are actually incredibly weak. Because if you only have one person who can make every decision, everyone else around them, is just trying to emulate that person or please that person. Gosh, you're just ignoring the potential of how many other people 510 100 1000s of people with amazing diverse perspectives. And it's a bad business decision. And it's about personal decision to think that one individual, no matter how brilliant they are, can outweigh the collective potential of those teams.

Steve Bisson: 8:28

The message is so pertinent for so many reasons, with the changes we can make, you know, there's one thing with this pandemic is that we can make those changes, which is really beneficial. Not that I wanted a pandemic, by any stretch of the imagination. And I'm a generation XOR. And we were the ones who were trying to crumble that ceiling a little bit. And I think we made some dents. But I'm hoping that the millennials, and the future generations are able to just kill that freaking glass ceiling to the ground. And I can see that in your mission, which is really, really important.

Unknown: 9:02

Yeah, I talk to people of all generations, obviously. But something I really appreciate is people tell me how they've tried to make a difference in the way that they could. They're not that many people out there who are able to just strike out on their own and completely establish a brand new organization. And to be honest, even there's a strong correlation between entrepreneurs and some of those command and control and even a little bit of narcissism that can go along with it. So that's not always necessarily even the best recipe. But what really impresses me is that even though some systems are so deeply entrenched in organizations or in our society, people still recognize that they want to do good, they want to create something better. The thing that I find though, is they might not always feel like it's possible. And one I'm sure that they feel that way because, gosh, it's hard to be confident in your abilities, right? But the other reason is that they get great round down, they get told the same messages over and over. Work sucks get over it, this is the way we've always done it, get used to it or get out, right? Which is just, it's such a shame. And I see a lot of people who, if they demonstrate a sort of a level of trauma they've been they've internalized some of these messages. And that can go one of two ways. One, they can be resentful, and they can feel like they've tried very, very hard, but they haven't had success. The other way is that they can sort of tap into those problematic messages. And they can say, this is how it is you need to get used to it to that's what I did in order to get where I am today. So if you want, so let's take hard work as an example. Right? There's a very strong message out there that if you're not successful, it's because you're not working hard enough. Which I think if you take a step back, and you look at available data, like how many hours do people work? Or how dedicated are they? It's fundamentally untrue. A person who makes minimum wage certainly doesn't. Working the same amount as a person who might be a big time executive, I think, frankly, that they work much, much harder, but that our systems are structured in such a way that it keeps people where they are. And that's just, it's just wrong, right? That person needs to be given the opportunity to shine, because I'm 100%. Sure, and all the people that I've met with over many years, they all have really important perspectives, and really important gifts to offer. So I think that what's really important is to create those environments and shift those systems around. So that we decouple ourselves from the way things are and open up new opportunities, especially for people of all generations that are really interested in change.

Steve Bisson: 11:55

And I think it goes back to what I my biggest pet peeve that I have some people see, you know, from my job, I have my diplomas on the wall. And they like, Oh, you're really educated. So that doesn't make me smart. That's a piece of paper. What makes me smart possibly, is to talk to people. And you know, that's part of the work that I do as a therapist. But I also think that my experience working in a supermarket for 10 years, really helped me how to relate to people. And that was the hardest work I did. What I do now is not not difficult, but it's certainly different. But it never I resonate a lot with you know, someone who's works in a supermarket does landscaping, they don't work as hard. Now, that's not that you can't equate that. But I think that causes sometimes that trauma that you talked about a little bit of mental health issues for many, many people. So you know, maybe it's a good transition to start talking about a little bit about mental health, and what your views are about mental health and especially around your work.

Unknown: 12:53

I think mental health is something that's been really under recognized. And I'm very pleased to see some positive changes. So you're seeing it in sports, obviously, you're seeing it in businesses. And you can see it in a variety of places across all of our society. It you know, I hear from some people, many people actually that they were the first person in their family ever to go to therapy, I was the first person in my family ever to go to therapy to. And it was very stigmatized, growing up. I felt deeply like if I was to do that, it would be like confessing that there was something wrong with me and I hear many people say sort of similar things. What I think people don't we're going to talk about impostor syndrome a little bit, I think that what people maybe don't give themselves enough credit for is taking those initial steps to break generational patterns or generational traumas. It is incredibly hard work, as I said, role models wise, wow, did you ever see someone in your life who was willing to be that vulnerable? And who was willing to work on themselves to that extent, I can say, I certainly have seen that. But what I've seen and what you know, message was really prominently given to me was I am who I am. That's just the way it is. Right? We all know many people who have strongly strongly identified with that statement. And mental health wise, I think that just it pins people in place. And that's a shame. They do it to themselves. But it's also a result of many, many societal messages about weakness and about strength. And a lot of times we believe that strength is the best possible thing to display when actually that's just building up more walls and barriers that prevent you from growing as a person. So obviously, I work in kind of the business world and leadership is my focus. It's still rare to see leaders who talk about mental health issues and to publicly demonstrate that they're invested in mental health. So I had a tic toc that was out a couple of weeks ago. And it was about trauma informed leadership. So I wrote an article about trauma informed leadership a couple of years ago, I had worked in nonprofits and other areas where I received trauma informed training. And I noticed that this was not something that was happening in a corporate environment, it's something that was never talked about. And I think that that's a really big opportunity. The reactions that that can garner are really interesting, right? Because people have such deeply internalized messages. And so even though they might recognize that a trauma situation is going on, the very first instinct that a lot of people have is to bear down harder on the individual, you see this in all kinds of situations, right?

Steve Bisson: 15:47

Pull yourself up by the bootstraps, exactly, or

Unknown: 15:50

sexual assault, right? Like you've been, you've been traumatized to one of the most extreme degrees and people blame the victim, or it really can happen, in some situations very, very strong. I think it's a self protective impulse. People want to distance themselves from a person that had something bad happened to them. And so in order to do that, they look for any possible reason that that might have happened and why it might have been okay, so that they can tell themselves that they are okay. And that it's not going to happen to them, because they didn't do that thing. Right. So when you see this in a business environment, one thing that I think is massively holding us back, as a society and as people and as businesses is the idea of professionalism. I think professionalism is poor mental health in disguise. So what do I mean by that? Think about anytime you've ever been told in your life, that you've been unprofessional, you're not professionally dressed, you didn't speak professionally, you didn't behave in a way that was professional, those are very coded instances of telling you that you're not following the norms that have been set down. And very, very often, those norms are systems that are structured in place to keep certain people in power, and to withhold power from others. So if you start to pick it that you can see how unhealthy it is, it's holding us back from saying that it's okay to be vulnerable, that it's okay to work on yourself, that it's okay to care for others. And so that really kind of all comes together to put mental health at the forefront. I think of potential businesses and organizations that put people over profits over the next significant period of time are going to be the most successful. People want to buy from businesses that are human and authentic, they are sick of just feeding profit machines. I mean, maybe for the sake of convenience, you can sort of see that, that people do kind of tap into some of those things. But if they really have the time, they're able to be their best selves, I find that many people care very deeply about who they're supporting, and what that means. So if you can dramatically shift yourself, your leadership, your organization, you can actually tap into greater humanity. You can support people who work for you so that they can actually feel good, they can have the feeling meaningful lives, you can have the same thing. And you can be creating net positive good in the world, which I think is I think it's the most important thing we could be focused on right now.

Steve Bisson: 18:39

I agree totally. And we're listening to finding your way through therapy. I'm Steve, and where you're listening to Robin L. Garrett, and we're talking about mental health, work environments and how we can change. One of the things that I would say even on besides on a corporate level about mental health is that even as a therapist, I put up a on my Instagram account, I put up something about how therapists are taught to be professional. And, you know, we gotta be stoic, we got to be this, we got to be that I'm none of those things. I can't be stoic at the right time. But ultimately, most of my clients, like you're not, you're not like other therapists, you share, you talk about stuff. And I think that it's not only on a corporate level, we need to do it on an individual level. So we can change on a different, the different focus. So I really relate to what you're saying. I've tried a long time to just be a human. And I will continue to try to be a human for the rest of my life, hopefully. But I think that it brings brings back to a little bit of what you were starting to talk about in this this How is leadership changing right now to make the make it more conscious to talk about people's mental health and working on that? I don't know if that's something that you've been working on?

Unknown: 19:44

Absolutely. So it is my opinion that in the last 20 years leadership that's really flipped upside down. So the model of leadership that many people grew up with is what we call again, command and control leadership, where there's one individual and all Lots of people in the organization are serving that individual that's at the top of the pyramid. I am a huge proponent of servant leadership, which takes that model and flips it upside down. You are as a leader, you're responsible for building an incredible team, and making sure that team has the tools and resources and people that they need to succeed at a particular goal. Ideally, that goal is something that does good in the world. But one way or another, certainly we all have goals. So if you can think about things a little bit differently, and you can say my job as a leader is not to come up with all the ideas, it's not to tell people what to do. It's to listen and provide support and help people feel great, so that they can do their best work, I guarantee you, you will be 10 times more successful than your traditional command and control leader.

Steve Bisson: 20:52

So agree and you know, one of your again, I come back to Tiktok. Because that's something I really relate with you. I go back to something you put up a few that will be a month or two ago about how which leader is influenced you in a positive way and why and I want to share this because I think that's relevant to what you're saying I had a boss in the supermarket, who was my produce manager, and a lot of people were getting promoted above him from under him. And at one point, you know, I'm a 1920 year old kid going over and like, Does that bother you? He's like, No, that represents what I've given them as tools in order to really become stronger. And this is like 2530 years ago that I heard that. And I think that that's what you're talking about is that leadership's leadership that understands that elevating other people takes nothing away from you is so important in order to and that includes mental health, and the stuff that goes with that.

Unknown: 21:45

Absolutely, yeah. Politics, in business. And in leadership, especially, honestly, I don't think really serves anyone that you know, there's that'll I say this all the time, just as a reminder, both to myself and to others, this old saying A's, higher A's and B's higher seas. It's, it's okay to feel threatened. Sometimes you've meet somebody, and I've heard people will come out of interviews and they'll say, Wow, that person was so amazing. If I hire her, what will I do? And I'll tell you a story about that. That was something that was a transformational moment in my life. So my kids are seven and five now. But when I had my daughter, I had to go on maternity leave. And that was the first time in my life that I really, truly thought to myself, I'm going to delegate 100%, I'm going to instead of continuing to hold on to my way of doing things and keep everything dependent on me, I was going to become a figure on my team that helped other people achieve their potential. So I had a couple of really impressive protegees that were ready for more responsibility, but I was hoarding that for myself. And I said, What would happen if I really, really, truly helped give them what they need to succeed? And they blew me out of the water. And then there's this fear that I think people can experience that again, okay, well, does that mean that I'm irrelevant, and I'll tell you, it just doesn't, there's always another hill to conquer. There's always something bigger and bolder out there in the future that you can go and do that you can focus on. And so if you're holding on to the smaller responsibilities that you've already mastered, you're not willing to delegate, you're not willing to bring people with you give them responsibilities and opportunities, you're holding them back, you're holding yourself back, you're holding the organization back, it's hard to see it that way. Because we've been taught that personal responsibility and hard work are so so so important to our value as people, but we have intrinsic value. And if we work together, if we can be vulnerable enough to trust and to act as a team, instead of just acting as an individual, the potential is unlimited.

Steve Bisson: 24:03

Well, I applaud you, first of all, and I think that that's the exact way you you We need to be by we'll flip it a little bit here and ask you maybe a more difficult question. So you know, I've heard from many women I've worked with that when they go on maternity leave. There's a fear of losing their spot, so that they don't want to delegate to other people because they're going to lose their spot. And unfortunately, it has happened to other people that they lose their spot, because God forbid a woman takes time to be with their children when they just had a baby, right? That's sarcasm for those who don't know me. So how do we kind of conquer that fear? I'm sure that happens to men too. But I want to particularly concentrate on the maternity leave stuff for women. How do we kind of like conquer that fear for women that may occur when they're going from and fear that fear that you talked about?

Unknown: 24:53

I think that's a fantastic question. I think I want to approach it a little bit differently. One thing I remind myself constantly as a leader is that my team is my responsibility. So if I'm in a place where I have to ask myself, why are people afraid to lose their livelihoods for taking the smallest possible amount of time to process one of the most massive changes in their lives and to care for their own personal health? Things have gone dramatically, dramatically wrong. So that's a moment where I want to take a step back and look at an organization and say, what is happening here? One, have I created a relationship with that individual where they trust me enough to know that I have their back on a personal level? I've certainly had many people go on maternity leave or other types of leave over the years. And it's something that we talk about from the very first moment, we I want to be respectful of what they're interested in. But I certainly remember being a young woman early in my career and having people snicker and say, oh, yeah, she went on maternity leave, she's probably never coming back, right? And treat this at all. Such a weakness. Yes. And honestly, there's so many reasons why that happens. But whether it does or not, if you as the boss have not created a relationship of openness and trust, which, frankly, takes a ton of work, because people have been burned many times throughout their careers, you're not just you're not just representing yourself, as a leader, you're representing what leadership means. And so if they've been burned in the past, you have, you have a double mountain to climb there. So I think it's very important on an individual level to create security and safety for that person. Otherwise, there's no way that you can have any expectations for them to trust you. But secondarily, how are we structuring the organization so that people have an opportunity to both be human and to be successful? I've heard it said many times that, you know, I even saw a funny story, oh, man, this was maybe about a year ago, that a woman had created a resume. And she was using her resume to apply for jobs after taking a career break, using her experience as a mother. And as anyone knows, mothers work incredibly hard. They work around the clock, they know how to deal with stress, they know how to make decisions. It's a skill set that's deeply undervalued. But it's also very impressive. It's very strengthening, and it builds resiliency. So the thing to ask ourselves is, are we damaging our organization by not having the right representation throughout the organization? are we failing to create structures that support people so that they can live real full lives? And I think what's really interesting at this moment right now, is that there's so much disruption in the talent market, there's so much desperate desire for change, that things have really become that candidate market. And so now businesses are being forced to compete for talent in a way that they haven't before. And, and frankly, they've been, they've been lackadaisical about making choices that they knew were good for people. And honestly, I work with many, many HR individuals over the course of my career, HR knows this, and they push hard for it. But a lot of times, the executive team won't go for it unless they can see how it benefits the bottom line, which is just wrong. It's, we need to think about what's the right thing to do.

Steve Bisson: 28:46

Right. And I think that that's where it comes back to a little bit of making sure that leaders take care of their own mental health as well as the ones around them. So how do we communicate that importance to leaders? Because that's very difficult, because I got here by blank, and that's the only way to get there. And of course, they don't believe that personally. But that's kind of like the mentality sometimes. So how important is it to for us to let leaders know how to take care of their own mental health as well as taking care the mental health of their employees?

Unknown: 29:20

Yeah, this is a huge question right now. So a lot of people are trying to figure that out for themselves. Some people aren't. And I can completely understand why maybe they have as a result of their circumstances, not felt like that was something that was possible for them. But it's, it's just like other generational squeezes where you're dealing with something above and something below if you're trying to figure out how to navigate your own personal mental health better. And you're trying to support others in their lifelong mental health endeavor that is quite taxing. And so some of the things that I am adamant about, are we Really, honestly quite basic things like, how much are you working? How much are you working? What is your workload? Like? What are your hours like? And are you taking time off? Time Off is something that is so poorly managed these days, people work around the clock, they've got their phone in their pocket. They can check emails any time. I've heard so many people say things like, well, I'd rather check my emails while I'm on vacation, because I don't want to come back to a mountain of work. Well, what does that then point to? Again, it points to that the leader has not structured the team so that the workloads are manageable and realistic. And there's even sometimes some sort of almost passive aggression involved in that because people will give lip service, they'll say, Yes, I want to help you, I want to support you, but they won't actually take anything off of anyone's plate, they'll say we need to prioritize, but ultimately, everything will still be a priority, which is just untrue. If everything's a priority, and nothing's a priority, I think it's important to be open and honest about your own mental health. I see a therapist every Tuesday morning, from nine to 10, I keep it on my calendar, I share insights that I have learned in therapy, I do not proclaim to be perfect, I just try to be open and honest about the journey that I'm on. And then I, it's very important to be respectful of people's boundaries. The reason that people might not be comfortable with sharing is not important. That's not for me to decide whether or not they might be comfortable. But what I can do is I can create a supportive enough environment and a supportive enough relationship that they understand that it's safe to share with me. And that, let me tell you, it was a big hurdle, because a lot of people don't feel safe talking to HR or talking to a boss. Right. And that also, I understand that they deserve the opportunity to work on themselves that they are not a robot, that they are not someone who can just power through all the time. And then that's not in either of our best interests.

Steve Bisson: 32:02

And I think that when you say that the first thing that comes to mind is shame. Yeah, we give like, I think I shared this with you someone was putting put this out on Twitter that, oh, boy, my boss is angry that I use the time he gave me for time off. That kind of brings up shame for a whole lot of people anything that you know, there's things in mental health that you are more willing to share than others. And I might be because of XYZ reasons. And I don't want to judge that as you said. But how do we kind of like work on the shame factor so that people can feel comfortable not sharing, or sharing depending on where they're at? While not like, you know, I've having mental health issues is something it's happening with some of my clients, I'm having some struggles with my mental health. But what is it? Well, none of your frickin business. That's what that is. But then they get shamed. And you know, oh, come on, you can't get it together. I mean, you just lost plank, family member or whatever, come on, just We've all lost someone. And there's quickly to shame spiral that kicks in. And so how do we address that shame factor, not only towards the employee that may have that, but also maybe perhaps the leadership to make sure that they're not using that type of language. I've worked with HR, my mom was HR rep for a long, long time for a big company up in Canada. But how do we work on that shame factor? Because I know that HR may not do that, but other people may.

Unknown: 33:22

Absolutely. And we all make mistakes too, right? So I have a concept that I call shameless leadership. And I think it's very closely related to trauma informed leadership. So there's that old saying the carrot and the stick as a necessary balance between punishment and reward. And people regard that as sort of a gold standard, right? Well, what if that model is actually wrong? And I would encourage everybody to take a step back and think about when you're using the stick when you are shaming or punishing individuals, are you actually creating the circumstances through which they're going to be able to do the thing you want them to be able to do? And then once you have an opportunity to think about that, you can really think through what type of response do you want to provide? How do you want people to feel so that they can perform better, I guarantee you that a person who feels supported and feels good about themselves will perform better will be a more valuable individual to an organization than a person who has been shamed. Shame hinders creativity. It grinds people down, it makes them resentful, and they're trying to escape as quickly as possible, even if they're an incredibly hard worker, and they're very ambitious shame is damaging. Someone who has been lifted up who has been told what their value is who has been treated as a partner, as opposed to as a pawn They can do anything, they have that potential within them. And if you can support them properly, that's all possible for everyone. So honestly, this is an extremely radical idea. Because most people have seen shaming happen from the time they were kids, certainly throughout their business life, they've seen many, many examples of people punished, or spoken negatively to or degraded in a way. And they come to think that that's how they were taught. And that's how they should teach others. But I will tell you, it is untrue. And once you set yourself free from Oh, I have to be a punitive figure, I have to hold people accountable, quote, unquote. It's amazing what people can achieve what you can unlock from your team and the amount of trust that is possible if you're not actively doing things that break trust on a very, very regular basis.

Steve Bisson: 35:57

I agree wholeheartedly, again, finding your way through therapy, this the podcast, I'm sitting here with Robin, my name is Stevie. So one of the things that I talked about is modeling. In regards to behavior. One of the things that I tried to do in my therapy with my clients is to make sure that I model honest behavior. You know, last month in December, I I hate the summers, and not because of the holidays, but more of the losses I've had in my life. And I'm, I'm not like sometimes my clients, are you having a hard time? Or how are you? I don't know, I'm having a hard time, this is a tough day for me. But when you model that behavior, it's important to kind of realize that you're showing people that it's okay to be vulnerable, it's okay to be hurt. And I think that maybe perhaps that's something that can be beneficial even on a leadership HR standpoint, for any company. Do you feel like modeling is something that happens as often as it should? Or how do we kind of change that notion of how to model so that we can reduce the shame of people because when you have less shame, you want to work for that person? And I'm not sure I'm not shameful to tell Robin XYZ and then Robins a good leader, I want to keep my I want to stay around to work with Robin. So how do we kind of work on that modeling behavior if people are not doing it yet?

Unknown: 37:10

Absolutely. So it's important to think about who is your behavior for? are you behaving for people above you, or you don't necessarily like these up and down metaphors, but are you behaving for people who are below you. A lot of times the people who are successful in organizations who make a lot of money who get promoted to positions of power, they posture for people who are above them, they're good at showcasing their accomplishments, they're vocal, they're loud, they push in? Well, none of that is empowering their team to perform better than putting themselves on display. So what if you thought to yourself, Okay, I need to change my focus dramatically. I need to not be showing people above me how great I am how impressive I am, I need to be showing people around me that this is a safe place, that I am a real person. And that I can behave, I can walk the walk essentially. Because what still tends to happen. And I will tell you I struggle with this myself, because I learned from such a young age that hard work was the way is still you see people in positions of power who are quote unquote overachievers or who are workaholics, the workaholic trope is one that needs to die as soon as possible. Because the message that people receive it, you can't achieve that level of success. If you're not killing yourself in the process. The thing is that that's actually untrue, you can achieve it. But it's going to require something besides just grit and hard work. It does require prioritization. It requires good emotional intelligence to recognize what's going to actually make a difference and who should be involved. People who are exploring that other side of things. Those are the people that others want to follow. I felt lifelong relationships, just on being able to have little moments of humanity with others. I try my best to never work on vacation and to take all of my time off. This is something that obviously, it's difficult for everyone, but I tried to work a relatively routine set of core hours. A big trend that I'm seeing right now is staying away from off hours messaging. So instead of sending slack messages and sending emails at any time of the day, based on what you're ready to send it trying to be more disciplined and holding to within that time.

Steve Bisson: 39:44

You just made me shiver, said the word slack. And I'm like, Oh, are you that little nothing against slack no matter what bring down the company but I remember that little notification that it was always like,

Unknown: 39:55

exactly that. You know what's funny about the iPhone is it plays That little noise where it has that very specific vibration pattern. And I'm telling you, it spikes your cortisol. So you hear it and you're immediately in a fight or flight scenario against your phone. And so imagine you're trying to wind down for bed in the evening, it's, let's say it's 1115. At night, you're just trying to relax. And all of a sudden, you get that message from somebody, whether it's your boss, or it's someone on a project, and it says, here's all the things that I think I want you to do. I think we've all experienced something like that some of us have experienced it quite a lot, I know that I have. And what's really funny is, we still think that's normal, it's not normal, it's not normal to string ourselves out every hour of the day, to feel like at 1115 at night, you have to spring into action to do something spring into action to please someone that's ultimately not achieving big picture goals. It's just this relationship of power dynamics and pleasing those above you. So it's in the small things that we can break those habits, demonstrate to your team, that it's okay to make mistakes, demonstrate to your team, that it's okay to take breaks for yourself, demonstrate to your team that hard work and just pure time is not the only thing that they have to offer. They have a lot to offer as a fully rounded individual with talents, experiences, thoughts, perspectives. And if the only thing you're taking from them is their time. It's it's really a waste of human potential.

Steve Bisson: 41:38

Obviously, this is audio so no one can see me smile. But I was thinking about one of those tech talks that you put out in December, in regards I was braiding, brainstorming 50 new ideas that you got to implement by the end of the month. And those are usually the ones that you get at 11 o'clock at night on December 17. And you're like, I then gives me 13 days to put it in. And there's 15 ideas. And I'm like, how am I going to do that. And there's a lot of that. And like I said, I'm not shuttering because I'm not putting down slack at all there is it's a good tool. But I still remember that vibration at 11 o'clock at night going, oh my god, what am I going to do? But yes, I think that's important to discuss, this may be a good time to kind of switch it up to a little bit more something that I really enjoy, also from your tiktoks, but also from your book, in many ways, the trauma informed leadership. So I'd like to hear more about that. Because I'm obviously trauma informed as a therapist, but I don't know if I would be a trauma informed leader. So I would like to hear more about that.

Unknown: 42:36

Fantastic. So in healthcare, and in nonprofit areas, and in increasingly in other areas like teaching and law enforcement, there's the concept of being trauma informed. The easiest way for me to explain that is people have trauma, it's much more prevalent than anyone thinks, and much of it is invisible, or it's hidden in some way. And so as I was mentioning earlier, there's a very human impulse when you see someone in distress, or you see someone that's made a mistake to ask the question, What's wrong with you? You know, what's wrong with you that you couldn't get that project done on time? What's wrong with you that you don't know how this is supposed to work? You didn't follow the rules. But what I am much better question can be the more trauma informed question to ask is to say what happened to you. So in big T, capital T trauma, you can see something like that you've had the loss of a loved one. And so that's something that has happened in your life, and it's probably manifesting in a lot of ways. In a, let's say, a business environment or in a organizational environment, it may or may not be that type of thing. But it also could be something much smaller, and it comes back around to a more compassionate approach. So if I see someone who is struggling, instead of saying, Wow, yeah, I'm gonna throw them out on their ass. I'm going to, you know, if they make one more mistake, I'm done with them. What if you just approached them? And you said, How can I help you? What do you need? Has something happened? Again, it's important not to push people to expose information that they're not comfortable with that, that, that trust takes time to build. But asking them, you know, what can we deprioritize from your workload? Who do we need to get you access to so that you have a teammate? Something like that, again, while it's not the way that we've been taught to behave, it generates extremely positive results, and it's just the right thing to do. It's so much more human i. So in the last couple of years, I've changed my approach significantly to what my leadership style was at the beginning of my career. In that time, I've had a 100 percent track record of no terminations. And I have built some of the strongest relationships in my life because I have found that there are almost no circumstances where if you give a person trust, support time, competence, that they cannot achieve outstanding potential.

Steve Bisson: 45:19

I think that's brilliant. I think that's, you know, 100% is very much an impressive number there. You said something that I kind of work on as a therapist, I work with a lot of first responders in my work. And one of the things that I've learned to do is to normalize trauma. And what I mean by that is, I think everyone has gone through trauma. And you know, you can have a community trauma such as a pandemic 911 For for some people, but you can also have your own individual trauma and what I kind of explained to the first responders and this is something I'll say all the time, it may not be the first trauma, it's the 27th, one that triggers the 26 Before that, and so sometimes maybe perhaps being able to be informing the trauma leader, when you're doing trauma informed leadership stuff, do you think it might be beneficial to kind of like, let them know that trauma is normal, it happens, and it's how we respond to it. That's key and how we d stigmatize the whole trauma concept.

Unknown: 46:15

Yeah, one of the steps in trauma informed training is to become more familiar with how prevalent trauma is. So we all experience our own lives. And as you said, we've all experienced either major or minor traumas within our life, the loss of a loved one major life event, those can be major traumas. Minor traumas can be things like we talked about earlier, having someone not treat you in a respectful way, feeling discredited feeling impostor syndrome, anything like that. So there are good resources out there that I would encourage people to take a look at. Whatever you might be curious about. Sexual assault is very prevalent. Many people have lost loved ones, especially in the last few years, there's all different sorts of trauma that exists. And even some that are, you know, as you go through trauma informed training, if you do it formally, quite disturbing to think about, we don't want to think about those experiences, you think about things like food insecurity. It's something you see it on a billboard, but people unless they've experienced it, they just don't want to connect with that idea, because it's troubling. So if you can navigate yourself to a place where wow, people are, these are real, fully formed people who are experiencing so much in our lives besides just whatever project we're working on together. And what can I do to be a positive force in this person's life, and help them reach a better spot in their lives? That's a wonderful collaborative approach. And it comes down a lot of it, especially as a leader in business comes down to language, I get to decide what words I'm going to say when something goes wrong. When I make a mistake, when someone else makes a mistake. Am I going to say, Wow, this is not what we talked about what happened here? Or am I going to say, oh, it looks like we need some more time? How can I help? Right? It's, again, it is quite dramatically different from what I think our natural impulses are and what we've mostly seen in those environments. But it's very possible. And it's in those small things that the bigger picture, the bigger environment is re shaped, it's very easy to break someone's trust with a couple of wrong words. It takes a lot of time to use the right words to build up trust over time.

Steve Bisson: 48:41

And anyone who's ever worked more than one job in their lives have sometimes encountered that colleague, that boss that whoever that has caused trauma in the workplace where they don't feel like, you know, the ones that people really think about, especially for women is some sort of like sexual misconduct of any kind. But there are subtle ones like really the thought that was a good idea. Yeah, that's a subtle trauma that most people don't really get through. So one of the concepts that I want to discuss here is how do we get people to be comfortable and not go through? Like, what's your trauma where your past boss and let's talk about it? We can't really ask that question. But how do we work on like, you're hesitating here? How can we get people to be more informed about possible trauma from the workplace that they can bring into this new environment where you might have make it safe and secure for them?

Unknown: 49:31

Yeah. And it comes back to walking the walk, right, talking to talk walking the walk. So once you're more informed about the prevalence of trauma and how shame affects people and what kind of environment you actually want to create, I think the thing to focus on is your words, your actions, your behaviors. One thing that I again, another major shift that I've made over the course of my career, shifting from a command and control leadership style to a servant leadership style, is to stop making have statements and to start asking questions. So if I feel like as the boss, I have to have all the answers, and I have to tell people what to do. It's it's a big

Steve Bisson: 50:11

you don't have all the answers.

Unknown: 50:13

Nobody has all the answers. We are. We are mere mortals here. But so what can you do to kind of it's a great place to start is just ask as many questions as possible. Where would you like to go from here? Who should we involve in the project? What do you think about this? Those sorts of questions lead to new places, and the only way that we're going to evolve and grow and change both from an environment perspective. And from an output perspective, whatever project we might be working on, is to start to create that space. I think that's a good place to focus. It's something you can do right now, just just right now, and your very next conversation where you might have made a statement, ask a question, and then shut up and listen, because a lot of you know, certainly there's plenty of leaders out there who just waiting for their turn to talk. And while they might give lip service to asking questions, they're not really listening. And they're not really honoring what the person is saying. Those are things that are completely free. They don't take any extra time or effort. It's just a new habit to develop.

Steve Bisson: 51:20

Labor laughing here, because I, you know, waiting to talk is one of the things that I kind of teach from my clients is that you, you don't wait for your turn to talk, you listen to what the other person says and respond to it. And if you don't feel the response is good, maybe go with a question, go with a different response. And shut up and listen, as I've had bosses like that. And yes, you know, I'm not here to do my own therapy. So I'll talk to my therapist about that. I think they've asking the questions is very important. How do we inform someone perhaps if we have input that we don't want them to be threatened by that input? So for example, the idea of putting in I know, this is all corporate, but it still exists, putting beers in the on Fridays for in the fridge when maybe you work with someone who has an alcohol issue. So how do we speak up? How do we kind of like say, Hey, listen, I'm fine with everyone else, but I have a problem. And if I feel like excluded from that we don't want to stop from others from having fun, but with how do we kind of express ourselves without having that shame based response? Having that? Well, you know, I guess I got to do like what everybody else does and drink? How do we kind of express that on a general level? Because it's, that's, you know, wait, wait for your turn to talk or how do we express it?

Unknown: 52:35

Absolutely. So again, my focus is on leadership. And so I think the way that you've described this scenario illustrates what some of the problems are, we're putting all of the onus on individuals to navigate their own circumstances. But it's not actually their responsibility. It's the leaders responsibility, it's the organization's responsibility to create the right environment. So first of all, it's important to be aware that things like alcoholism, or struggles of of any kind, exist, and that it's something to be conscious of, it's also important to recognize that you don't know everything that people are experiencing. So even if maybe you understand how to make somebody who's experienced substance issues feel comfortable, maybe there are allergies, or there's immuno compromised, ation immunocompromised to take into account, all sorts of different things that could result in a person not doing the quote, unquote, normal thing to do. So one thing is to just kind of put your radar on, if you're the leader in this circumstance, not just wait for somebody to come out and tell you whether they're comfortable or not listen to the cues that are being provided to you, if a person doesn't come to a certain type of thing. Again, a lot of times the impulse or the action that you see is to say, oh, man, that person doesn't care. Or they're checked out or or something's wrong with them. But it's your job to create the environment where they feel comfortable. So number one, don't force people to come to things because it's, it's not. If they're not coming of their own free will, then it's not worth it to force it because you're not getting the results you want anyway, which is a happy, healthy, fulfilled, set of people. But number two, extend more sensitivity and recognition of various circumstances. And if someone does say to you something even if they indicate it ever so slightly, that they're not comfortable. Wow, that is your job to honor as deeply as possible. So if you do get a direct message from somebody, oh, I'm sorry, I don't drink and we all know the typical thing that has happens after someone says they don't drink. Right? Why? Oh, let me let me reveal all of my, my trauma and past experiences to you right here in front of everyone that I work with no, no. If you're in that circumstance, what can you do immediately to make sure that that person understands that you feel comfortable or that they should, they can feel comfortable and that you have their back, you're there to support them. And just because I knew we're all different, right, we all have things that we've struggled with, and that we honor that as something that's valuable, and that makes them whole and human.

Steve Bisson: 55:35

I think that's a good point there about whole and human and making sure that they can do that, again, listening to Robin here on finding your way through therapy. I'm Steve, I can't believe it's been almost an hour already. Maybe we can switch up because I want to hear so much about your book. And I, you know, I really enjoyed looking at it. And it will be honest, I did not complete it. But I did read a lot of it. And there's a lot of things that I really liked. They thought the values, the worksheets, and the boundary stuff, and the impact of those values that you have on them positive or negative. What else can you tell me about the book, obviously, I threw out a few ideas here. But anything you want to talk about is obviously very good.

Unknown: 56:15

Absolutely. So the book is called Be true to yourself, the personal values workbook, and I created it because of a lot of the things that we talked about today. Often people feel frustration with others, or they feel frustration with themselves in their own circumstances. Because there's some sort of conflict in values. So I have personal values, I have things that I believe in, I have things that I stand against. And what I found is when you work with people, and you help them define what those are, they can make more confident decisions in their lives. And they can feel a stronger sense of self and a stronger sense of control. So I had a woman say to me recently, after completing the exercises in the workbook, if I had understood the values that I oppose two years ago, I never would have taken that job, because of what the leadership style was like at that particular place. So I'll tell you an example of a personal example. Independence is one of my personal values. And so if I experienced something like micromanaging, obviously, everyone gets annoyed with micromanaging. But it for me, it's a it's a violation of what matters to me. And what many people do is they compromise because they feel like they have to fit in to the circumstances around them. If you are able to define your values to really carve through exactly what they are and what they mean to you, then you can take a more active role in making that decision. And even if you do decide, I'm going to bend to the situation, I'm going to compromise here, you do that with intention, as opposed to just feeling like you're being forced into it over and over. So in the book, what I what I have people do is first sort of talk about what values are, and we have positive and negative values, then there's an incredible list of 300 different values. And similar to that concept of sparking joy. Think about which ones inspire positive feelings, and which ones tend towards negative feelings. And so something like let's say, ambition, for some people can be positive, and for other people can be negative. Now, as a society, we sort of send this message that ambition is good, right? Ambition is good. That's how you get anywhere. And people who don't have ambition are not worthy people, which is just a untrue statement.

Steve Bisson: 58:35

We're just talking here, for example. Yes, exactly.

Unknown: 58:39

So but there are so many people out there for whom that word inspires many negative feelings, because it implies selfishness or it implies a lack of altruism, right? So what I have people do is they they identify the positives and the negatives, and then you go through a process of sort of narrowing it down to the things that you feel most strongly about. What you end up with is five positive values and five negative values. And the next step is really important. So everyone in the book gets to define their values for themselves. I know especially because I work with businesses, I've sat through many core values, presentations from a business where someone gets up and they read off a slide and they say, this is our definition of integrity. Well, you can say that over and over and over again. But I have in my heart, a personal definition of integrity. And if your definition of my definition are not the same, it doesn't matter how many slides or T shirts or posters you make, I'm never going to fully believe it. Right. So while some other exercises may have provide definitions for values, I think it's very important that we define those for ourselves. So what does it mean to me? Why do I believe in it, and what does that look like? And then the book concludes So with a series of mindfulness activities that say things like, what will I do to live out my values in the next year in the next five years, and then what will I do when I encounter the values that I oppose or experience something that violates my personal values. And by sort of visualizing those circumstances, people can feel more prepared. And they might not behave in the way that they would, they would think of as perfect when the circumstances arrive, but they have a much better chance at navigating it the way that they want to. And they can ultimately be more true to themselves, because they're not just operating off of a kind of a vague feeling of positivity or negative activity, they have a map that they've created for themselves and says, This is what I want to stand for. And having that tool in your, in your toolkit, it just gives you a, a sort of a power that unless you've gone through the work, it's difficult to have that type of competence that few people do, but most people don't most people, it takes them a little bit of time to decide how they feel, why they feel that way, and what they want to do about it.

Steve Bisson: 1:01:10

What I really like too, is when you do the exercise of defining your value. I think that that's so important. Like you said, my definition of integrity can be totally different than yours and what the dictionary says. And I think that giving that voice, I think that most people would benefit from this book for so many other reasons. But particularly, what does integrity mean to you? What does that imply for you? And that's so important, because for me, you talked about up and down and you don't like that stuff. Hierarchies are definitely one of my biggest pet peeves. Yeah, world. You might be and you are the CEO, but whether you're the CEO, or whatever, a clerk, yep. To me, I treat you exactly the same. Because I need to talk to you on a human level. And I think that that's stuff that, you know, when we look at the book, you can actually define all these things.

Unknown: 1:02:01

Yeah. And I think the other thing it does is it sort of democratizes the idea of values, because often the values of the person in power are given much, much more weight than you as an individual. So you find yourself trying to fit into this set of circumstances or situation and being told what's right and what's wrong. Well, if that's not what's right, and what's wrong to you, there will always be a sense of discomfort. And sometimes that can be very deep. There was a word you said just a minute ago, you said pet peeve. And so think about if we define something that violates our personal values, as a pet peeve, we are already discounting how we feel and what we believe so heavily, that no wonder people feel uncomfortable. I think that's a really great example of you trying to bend trying to be flexible, and trying to convince yourself that you can do something that violates who you are.

Steve Bisson: 1:02:58

Now, I feel like I gotta talk to my business coach about that. Thank you so much for that. As we conclude here, I really appreciate all the time you gave me. This is so amazing. I love this conversation. I want to finish on one thing, and I think that we briefly touched on if we haven't, it's maybe our conversation prior to it. One of my favorite things about your Tiktok is the 1% better. Right now match 57% Better roughly based on your tiktoks. So I'm doing pretty good. What How did you come up with that concept? Cuz I think it's something that people can really relate to.

Unknown: 1:03:29

Yeah, so I do this series on my tiktoks that are, here's the leadership tip that will make you 1% Better today. And they are little things like reaching out to an individual that you haven't connected with yet, or asking more questions, or many of the things that we've talked about today, educating yourself. You know, we live in a fast paced world where change, the demand for change is constant, and it's ravenous. You we talked about education earlier, and whether or not you're, you're, you have a lot of degrees or credentials. But honestly, what's really important is that people work on themselves a little bit every day. And so if you could do something small, if you can see a reminder or a tip that you can then put into action that same day, you will definitely get a little bit better. And if you dedicate yourself to that, not only are you trying out the new techniques, but you're building up a habit that allows you to, to make adjustments in your behavior in your words all the time. So a lot of people will look at oh, I want to develop a skill, I want to become a better this or a better that. And they'll look at either expensive university course or they'll look at expensive or, or many multi hours online courses. But often a lot of that can be learned through practical experience. So what I encourage is, try a little tip, understand what the benefit might be of doing something a little bit differently. And then see if you're able to try out that technique and then see for yourself what results did that get for me, I didn't do it exactly the way that I wanted this time. Next time, I'm going to ask it in a way that's more empathic or it's more pointed. Either way, just just trying will make you really successful people who have said, This is who I am, this is the way I'm going to do it. They've already they've already decided where they want to go in life. People who have said, I want to learn more, I want to try more, I want to do better, I want to create some good, have unlimited potential. And, and I love to work with those people and help them feel more confident. Help them feel more courageous in their abilities and in their their values and their message.

Steve Bisson: 1:05:42

My view of trying is always been like you do or you do not, maybe it's too much of a Yoda thing for me, but I always enjoy telling people, you might learn how to yodel, then don't learn yodel. Yeah, you know? And if you try and you go, I hate it. At least you tried it. Yeah. And then so try is not always a bad word. But I certainly they always tell people just do it. And then that way, you'll know if it resonates with you or not. So I definitely really respond to what you do on tick tock and what you just said. But as we wrap up, again, as I said earlier, how about telling me where I can get your book, because I obviously I got it, but I would love my audience to be able to access it.

Unknown: 1:06:22

Absolutely. So the book is called Be true to yourself, the personal values workbook, it's available on Amazon. And you can also find it on the company website, which is B mobley.com. B E A MABLYB. Mobley. That's our company. This is our first product, it is out there to help people establish their values as a as a means to becoming the best possible leader. And our overall goal there with be Mobley is to create sort of a leadership paradigm that brings light into the lives of others instead of being a a dark and destructive force.

Steve Bisson: 1:06:57

Well, like I'm going to put it in the show notes. To put it to your Amazon. Can we find it on your website? Also?

Unknown: 1:07:02

Yes, Robin l gara.com. That's my personal website. And so you can find the link there, you can also sign up for updates.

Steve Bisson: 1:07:10

I'm gonna put that in the show notes. Robin, it's been an absolute pleasure. This has been a great conversation, I can't tell you how much I appreciate it. And I'm hoping that a lot of people are going to not only turn to your book, but really get turned on by changing how we perceive so many different things about leadership. And I really appreciate the time.

Unknown: 1:07:29

Thank you so much. It's been a wonderful conversation. And thank you to everybody for listening.

Steve Bisson: 1:07:33

Thank you. Well, that concludes episode 31 of finding your way through therapy. Robin L. Garrett. Thank you, Robin, that was a great conversation, you know, talking about values of individuals, and what are the values that you don't prime is very important. But I also liked a conversation about people waiting to talk versus actually listening to the other person, and how shame plays a factor in leadership and how to work on that. But I really appreciate it and again, I will say go buy our book. It's Be true to yourself the personal values workbook, and it's available on Amazon, on her website, among other things. But episode 32 will be with a friend of mine, someone I've known for a long time. His name is Pat rice. Pat is someone that I've known for many years, I've heard his legend, frankly. And I'm hoping that we have a great conversation about spirituality. And that is hopefully to what you will get from that. But Pat rice is someone I truly respect and have loved for many years. But this is the first time I think we are going to sit down and actually do an interview. So hope you enjoy it. And I will see you on the next episode. Please like, subscribe or follow this podcast on your favorite platform. A glowing review is always helpful. And as a reminder, this podcast is for information, educational, and entertainment purposes. If you're struggling with a mental health or substance abuse issue, please reach out to a professional counselor or therapist for consultation.