E.208 When a Father's Death Shapes Who We Become

Bruce Wasser shares his journey of losing his father at age 15 and how this profound loss shaped his decision to become a conscientious objector during the Vietnam War and ultimately led to his 33-year teaching career.

• Growing up in Seattle with his father Joe, a WWII veteran who instilled values of teamwork, equality, and community
• Devastating loss of his father to cancer just 14 months after diagnosis when Bruce was only 15 
• Becoming an overachiever in school and sports as a response to grief
• Drawing the draft lottery number 90 during Vietnam and applying for conscientious objector status
• Finding surrogate father figures in coaches, professors, and public figures like Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.
• Discovering his calling as a teacher where he could identify and connect with students who were hurting
• Experiencing what his wife calls "post-traumatic growth" – becoming more empathetic through trauma
• Suggestions for grieving on Father's Day: share grief with others, write letters to your father, find meaningful places

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Chapters

• 0:00 Introduction to Resilience Development
• 3:17 Bruce Wasser's Early Life
• 7:16 Father's Illness and Sudden Death
• 12:57 Coping After Dad's Death
• 19:09 Becoming a Conscientious Objector
• 31:27 Finding Meaning Through Teaching
• 35:56 Navigating Grief on Father's Day
• 40:49 Closing Thoughts on Bruce's Memoir

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:00

Welcome to Resilience Development in Action, where strength meets strategy and courage to help you move forward. Each week, your host, steve Bisson, a therapist with over two decades of experience in the first responder community, brings you powerful conversations about resilience, growth and healing through trauma and grief. Through authentic interviews, expert discussions and real-world experiences, we dive deep into the heart of human resilience. We explore crucial topics like trauma recovery, grief processing, stress management and emotional well-being. This is Resilience Development in Action with Steve Bisson.

Speaker 2: 0:42

Hi and welcome to Episode 208. If you haven't listened to episode 207, it was with Elizabeth Eklund. I hope you enjoyed it. I did enjoy it, and if you haven't listened to it, go back and listen to it. But for episode 208, it will be for a Father's Day special with Bruce Wasser.

Speaker 2: 0:57

Bruce Wasser is someone that reached out to me and I thought his story was great. He has a memoir called 90. He was a conscientious objector during Vietnam war. He's a graduate with a high honors from Princeton and he served as a public school teacher for over three decades where he created a statewide curriculum that got honors that stimulated empathy for those who are victims of persecution. Now retired, he lives with his wife, who is also an author, fern Schumer Chapman, in Northern Illinois.

Speaker 2: 1:28

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Speaker 2: 2:57

Well, hi everyone and welcome to this important episode for Father's Day. It'll be episode 208. I'm just happy to have someone who's going to talk about his book, his memoir called 90, available on Amazon and Barnes Noble. So please keep that in mind. Bruce Wasser, welcome to Resilience Development in Action. Very happy to have you here.

Speaker 3: 3:18

Thank you very much for inviting me.

Speaker 2: 3:21

Well, the first thing I want to say and my audience knows this more than anyone. You can see the sign in the back Big Montreal Canadiens fan. That's the first thing I want to say, and my audience knows this more than anyone. You can see the sign in the back big montreal canadians fan. That's the first thing that bruce mentioned. He's like oh my god, you know he really liked the canadians. I'm like we're lifelong friends, me and bruce. Now we're all set. He's also a fan of the montreal canadians, despite living in what illinois?

Speaker 2: 3:41

correct so you're in illinois, you live in california and in seattle, and no kraken, no kings, no black hawks. So there you go, all you fans. I might have made some enemies here too, uh, but it's fine, that's what hockey's all about. But um, I bruce, you know, I, I got to know you a little bit before the we started the interview and I read a little bit about you, but my audience doesn't know about you. So how about you introduce yourself and tell us about yourself?

Speaker 3: 4:08

I'd be happy to. I am now 76 years old. My early childhood life was spent in Seattle, washington. I was born in 1949. Seattle was a wonderful city in which to grow. Seattle was a wonderful city in which to grow. We lived near my mother's mother, across the street from the park, and there in Seattle I had grew a lifelong love of athletics and bonded deeply with my father. My father was, I think, somewhat emblematic of a generation of Americans. He grew up during the Great Depression, lost his own father, coincidentally when he was but a teenager in Atlanta, georgia. My father was, I think, an extraordinary athlete, a gifted athlete, and to this day I think he was the best natural athlete I've ever seen. Joe grew up in Atlanta. World War II occurred and after a very brief one-year stay at Georgia Tech, dad became a soldier literally GI Joe Stationed in the Pacific Northwest. Literally, gi Joe stationed in the Pacific Northwest.

Speaker 2: 5:31

He met my father at a.

Speaker 3: 5:32

USO. He met my mother at a USO dance, married, and I was the first of three children, this idyllic childhood, growing up in a time I now recognize, of great fear. The 1950s in the United States had McCarthyism. There was a drive for conformity. It was a time where assimilated people we were Jewish and we lived in a beautiful community, magnolia, in the city of Seattle. But it was a time of fear. But it was a time of fear.

Speaker 3: 6:02

Dad was a civilian worker in Fort Lawton, a United States military post in Seattle, very close to our home. He would come home at 4.30 every day. We would go to the park and play. He coached me in baseball, he was my skipper and life seemed to be on an ascendant track. In 1963, dad received a wonderful opportunity from the General Services Administration, a promotion that moved us to San Diego, quite a different place than Seattle, washington. San Diego at that time. Now, what we would call a major league city was not. It was still a very quiet, small community, heavily a military community, and dad worked downtown in Seattle, in San Diego. But within a couple of months you've heard the expression the wheels went off the bus. That's what happened to our family. President John Kennedy was assassinated in November of 1963, literally eight weeks after he moved to San Diego.

Speaker 3: 7:18

Shortly thereafter my father was diagnosed with cancer, a disease that it was a rapid, devastating disease that took this incredibly handsome, strong, physical man and ruined him. Dad died in January of 1965. So from diagnosis to death was a very short period, just 14 months or so you'll say a year. That was really quick, yeah, very, very quick. At that time I think the response in our family, my mother's response and my father's was a combination of denial and protection. We knew dad was the word was sick. Dad was ill, but he had at one point of remission where he was getting what they would call better, but we were shielded from it To this day. I remember the last time I saw my father. He looked in the hospital, he looked awful. His arm was terribly distended, with swelling Difficult to look at. One eye was almost closed, weeping, and I asked dad to change the channel on the television. Of all things, my last communication with my father was something so egregiously self-centered, but I was a kid, I was a sophomore in high school and that's when dad passed away.

Speaker 2: 8:57

Well, first of all, self-centered. I mean, that's what we do at that age and unfortunately we all know that we don't know the last time we're going to say something to someone. My audience knows and I'm going to cut the corners. It wasn't my dad when I was 12. I lost my best friend and we played football and soccer together and my last words to my my friend was it's about fucking time because he had, he had borrowed my pads because he hurt his arm. And then he gave him back to me and I said it's about fucking time because he had, he had borrowed my pads because he hurt his arm. And then he gave him back to me and I said it's about fucking time. And he died that weekend in a fire.

Speaker 2: 9:33

You know, when you talk about self-centered or whatever, I don't think we know any better and sometimes we don't realize that this may be our last communication with whoever, um, and you know, with our fathers, with father's day. You know, and I'm sure you talk about this in your memoir, but I think that what the hardest part is to we never know when it's the last time you're going to speak to your dad. My dad was that my dad got diagnosed with cancer in october and died in december, and that's how quickly he went, oh my. So the last time I saw him I said I'll see you next weekend. He said yes, and that was my last words to him.

Speaker 2: 10:10

You never know these things and the only thing I want to, I know I want to get back to the seriousness of what we're talking about, but I just want to mention for you young people out there a skipper is what you call a manager, but we call them a skipper because we're that's, we're older, so that's what we call their manager, but we call them a skipper because we're older, so that's what we call their manager. Just wanted to mention that. I just wrote it down and half the people won't even know what the hell is a skipper, but just wanted to mention that. But I'd love to hear more about what happened after that passed away, because you were so young. I mean, there's gotta be some consequences when that happens.

Speaker 3: 10:44

Unfortunately, that's a very kind question that you asked, and I'll do my best to answer it. I think my father's death was a catastrophe for our family. He was the center of our universe. We all orbited around him. He was a remarkably gregarious man, atypical for his time. Here's a quick story In the 1960s, if a man called another man on the phone, the question would be what do you want?

Speaker 3: 11:23

You wouldn't be calling to talk, and my father would call to talk. We would call that networking or this is a very female-oriented just to talk. We all careened out of orbit, all of us. I think it was devastating for my mother, a beautiful, bright, driven woman, and she lost her Joe when she was very young. I was shattered by my father's death. There's no question about it, and like many young people, I think my first response was self-blame. What did I do to bring about my father's death? What wrong did I commit? I must have done something wrong. That dad would be taken from me, and so I think this is, to me, makes a lot of sense. A lot of kids, teenagers, are bewildered by this event, over which we have no control. I was not prepared at all for the extraordinary wreckage that this death caused in my family. All of us grieved in different ways.

Speaker 3: 12:32

I think I hurled myself into school. I went to a terrific public high school in San Diego, california, claremont. A prototypical middle-class high school that had an extraordinary curriculum. I look back now and I remember I taught for 35 years. I look back and think this is a remarkable public school. Mandarin Chinese was taught there. Professors from our In the 60s yes, wow, professors from our community college came and taught when I was a senior, taught the calculus and political science. But this was not an affluent community, it was a working class to middle class community. In San Diego. I threw myself into school. I became a classic overachiever, thinking that somehow, if I pushed myself, hurled myself in a life of activity and academic excellence in high school, that I could compensate for the death of my father. And I did. I was the first straight-A student in my high school's history. I was not a gifted athlete, but I absorbed my father's profound lessons about almost the sacredness of teamwork, the essence of community building. So I became the first most inspirational player in my school's history, twice in basketball I was going to ask you which sport? Yeah, basketball, I mean. I was literally the 15th player on a 14-player team.

Speaker 3: 14:26

I learned and this is I deal with this in my memoir 90, a book that deals with conscientious objection but also deals with my reaction to my father's death I now know that my father I saw my father talk to our high school basketball coach in the fall, in the winter of 1964. I think this must have been perhaps six weeks before dad died. Well, I had no idea what dad was talking to coach Richard Eiler about, but I'm sure it was take care of my kid, take care of my boy, yeah, and coach Eiler did. He kept me on the team. I was horrible, I was a terrible basketball player, but I was a great teammate. I was a great teammate and I loved coach Eiler. I loved our ballplayers. I was lucky to be on two very, very good ballclubs championship ballclubs and I saw in Coach Eiler the first of father figures.

Speaker 3: 15:37

One other note I'd like to make is I think I have had one of the consequences of my dad's death. It's almost a lifelong need to try to make order out of things, sometimes even utterly uncontrollable. So when I taught, I was known as the manilophile man, always had everything perfectly organized. I like timetables. I try the best I can to keep order. Now why? I'm not compulsive, but order is important to me. Why? Because my life went out of order.

Speaker 2: 16:12

I was going to say it's a trauma response, but that's the therapist without any question at all now.

Speaker 3: 16:18

Now I'm an old guy, I'm 70 and I can look back and understand this, but I would wonder why that? People probably say why is this guy so organized? Why is everything so? I also realized that I had, as a consequence of my father's death, the need to be a good human being, the need to honor the values that my father instilled in me In athletics, but that would seep out into other aspects of my life. That would seep out into other aspects of my life.

Speaker 3: 16:56

Although he was a non-practicing Jew, he believed in the Judaic principles of community, of tolerance, of dignity. The need is, he would say, of of absolute equality. He would. He would say it this way son, they put their pants on one leg at a time, just like you. You ain't no better than anybody else, but they put their pants on one leg at a time, just like you. You ain't no better than anybody else, but they ain't no better than you. You know his grammar was awful, but his precepts were profound and I've tried to live by them. So that would be the need to be a good human being was a direct consequence of dad's death.

Speaker 2: 17:36

Well, it's kind of interesting because I know this is part of your book. I know you may want to talk about something else, but I want to go to something here, if you don't mind is that being a good human being sometimes is to object the things that we think are wrong, and it takes a lot of courage to do so, and I know that in your book you address it. But can I hear more about your conscientious objection and how maybe the role of your dad played in that and how his influence led you to be more of a conscientious objector?

Speaker 3: 18:09

Well it's, I think, an ironic and almost paradoxical consequence. I think an ironic and almost paradoxical consequence. I never had the chance, like many young men and women, to kind of butt heads with a parent on a very serious decision, never had a chance to run up against my dad. My dad was a veteran. He was not a pacifist. Dad played football. He was not anything like a conscientious objector. I think my father's death put me on a path of trying to find out what the best person I could be. And at that time, as I was coming of age, in the late 1960s, the United States was involved in a disastrous war halfway around the globe, in Vietnam. Over time I became an opponent of that war. But even before I became a full-throated opponent to that war, I was deeply shaken by the death of Dr Martin Luther King Jr and Robert Kennedy Sr. Their two assassinations, within two months of each other, in the late spring and early summer of 1968, had profound reverberations nationally and, of course, personally, I had mentioned just a bit ago that I had searched for father surrogates. Well, those can be people that we know and they can be people that we don't know. I never met Dr King, I never met Robert Kennedy, but they were father figures to me, yeah, represented. They were about the same age. They represented something proud and decent and good and hopeful with which I could identify.

Speaker 3: 20:16

Well, after Robert Kennedy's assassination, I made application for a conscientious objector Now your audience, that means a man. In this case it was men who object to all war. My thoughts were still relatively unformed. What I was really objecting to was violence. Now, this was political violence and assassination, but you can see how nuanced it was, also a reaction to the violence that took my father. Cancer was a violent disease. It ravaged dad, and so I saw the parallels between the evils of racism and political violence in the United States to the evils of cancer that ravaged dad. I became a CO At that time as I explained and CO stands for conscientious objector.

Speaker 2: 21:15

For those who are wondering, correct, sorry, I like to explain over-explain?

Speaker 3: 21:18

Oh no, I don't think that's over-explaining. That makes complete sense to me. I did not have to prove anything to a local draft board. The draft board, a local draft board, would be the agency that would determine the authenticity of my claim. That would determine the authenticity of my claim.

Speaker 3: 21:37

I instead took what was called a student deferment. Defer means to put off, and at that time, in the late 1960s, if you were going to college you could receive a deferment, a pass. You're actually passing the responsibilities on to those men who could not go to college, and that's a fact that still continues to haunt me. So, even though I made application to be a conscientious objector, I knew that if I continued to go to college and I went to Princeton at the time that I would be deferred from any kind of military involvement until the summer of 1971. Would the war be over by then? In that case my application would be meaningless. I could go on and pursue my life. But as the war ground on and our troop and there were insufficient number of troops who were volunteering to fight in this war it became obvious there would be a need to cons from that draft was a lottery. I drew the unlucky number 90, aligned with my birth date, and thus my application for conscientious objection would be put to the test.

Speaker 2: 23:06

What does that?

Speaker 3: 23:07

mean. It meant that in the summer of 1971, I would have to prove to my local draft board that I was indeed sincere. My mother by this time, frightened that she would lose, another man had interfered by asking our local congressman to intercede on my behalf. It was a completely understandable but unwise decision. And as I developed by this time a good relationship with the secretary of the local draft board and she informed me that this kind of meddling was terrible on two levels. One, it was direct interference with the board trying to put pressure on the board, and second, it made it look like I couldn't take care of my own business, that my mom was doing something for me that I should have done myself. My mom, out of love and out of anguish, told me that my father would have been ashamed of me. Anguish told me that my father would have been ashamed of me, that he would have repudiated me, that he would have been aghast that I was making an application for conscientious objection. She begged me to have a doctor write a phony excuse. The current president of the United States is a shameful example of a man who used a phony excuse to avoid responsibility for any kind of decision.

Speaker 3: 24:44

I would never leave the United States. I was profoundly, and still am, deeply, a deeply patriotic person. It sometimes can be confounding for people to hear people on the left say that they deeply love their country. Right now we almost associate patriotism with being on the right, and it's never been that way for me. I felt great respect and, oh, incredible anguish for those men and their loved ones who left the country, many of whom went to Canada and established a good and decent life there. But that wasn't for me. I realized, growing up in San Diego, a conservative military town, growing up in San Diego, a conservative military town, that I would not be granted, if I were not granted, co status. The likelihood is I would go to jail, and that terrified my mom, it ruined my life. So not only was I a shame, was I a shame to my beloved deceased father, but I was ashamed that I could be, that I would end up going to jail. So I had to call on the memory of my father and ask myself many times over what would my father have wanted me to do, me to do? What would Joe have advised me to do in this terrible ordeal?

Speaker 3: 26:19

And at that time, living on campus, I would hear in the dorm. Sometimes I would hear other young men say terrible things about their father, sometimes even wishing that. I would hear them say I wish my father were dead, where I hate my old man or stuff, and I it caused. It made me wince. I was still coming of age, I was still becoming a man and I would say to myself boy, I wish, if you feel that way about your dad, I wish we could trade places. You know your father, that your father passed away and I would still have dad right.

Speaker 3: 26:59

But I realized my father would. One of his phrases was show the folks what you got, son. Show them what you got. And I realized what I have is not athletic skill, what I have is not a terribly overwhelming intellect, but I've got a good heart. I have a love for humanity and I had to let that show. And I realized that, even though my father probably would have argued terribly against my decision, I think my father still would have loved me, at least now as I have grown up to be a complete adult. That's what I feel.

Speaker 2: 27:46

Right, but how did you feel when you were younger? I'm sure that that was a little tougher at that time Because you know, like you mentioned so many things here, you know being able to. You know, when I hear people wish people away, I always tell people you gotta remember, you're gonna regret that eventually, um, you know, um, we talk about grief, we talk about trauma, we talk about fathers. For me, that's something that I hear sometimes and I'm like look, you don't want to wish anyone that number one, but number two. You know, when you you do all this, I mean it's always interesting to think about. Like you know, your dad would still love you, but I'm sure that there was a lot of conflict at the time, without question, without question.

Speaker 2: 28:36

You know, and I think that when you think about the Vietnam War, having those thoughts and yes, I mean patriotism has been lost and to me, patriotism has nothing to do with the left or the right, it has to do with loving your country or not. Having been an American for about four years now, but having lived here for 26 years, I'm proud to be an American, just like I'm proud from being from Canada, don't get me wrong, but at the end of the day, it's also hard to measure patriotism. Is it conscientious objectors? Is it people who are getting on those planes and those helicopters and going to Vietnam? What's a real good American? I think that's. You know, that's that's. Patriotism has always been fluid in my opinion and it's hard to really figure it out. And when you had a dad who is in the military, like you said, it's even more difficult because you know forgotten country and sometimes that gets confused with being able to also make your own decisions. I think that's.

Speaker 3: 29:36

I think that's correct. I was granted conscientious objector status, worked for two years at the Palo Alto Veterans Administration Hospital and during that time I changed my life's axis from wanting to be an attorney to being a teacher. And there I did. I taught in a working class community in California for almost 33 years the same school district and there I realized I was very much my father's son. I had a huge personality in the classroom. I was a beloved teacher and I recognized that my father, the anguish that I felt over my father's death, led me to become, I think, a more compassionate and empathetic human being, and my wife, fern Schumer Chapman, a wonderful author, has said that what I experienced, she thinks, is what's called post-traumatic growth.

Speaker 3: 30:46

She said she would never wish the death of a beloved father on any adolescent, but she said it had unintended, wonderful consequences. It made me a teacher who almost had a sixth sense of kids who were hurting in my classroom. I could pick them out and they came to me like metal filings, to a magnet. I tried to love my students with all of my heart and to guide them, as a history teacher and as a teacher of English, to a greater appreciation of their nation, and so I think it would be almost as if I were a tree struck by lightning. I had to grow stronger around the scar that was my father's death, and I did. I think it made me.

Speaker 3: 31:49

My dad's death made me a more complete, whole human being, one who was ever all the more committed to the ideals of a nation, passionately committed to the youth of the nation. That's why I became a teacher and hopeful, always hopeful that the future would bring something better than the past. That the future would bring something better than the past. Well, that's very powerful, thank you.

Speaker 3: 32:26

I don't think I thought all of those things while they were happening. I can't claim that kind of foresight, but I do know that the large personality I showed in the classroom, my great belief in the need to be part of a community, the joy I had in living life, all of these things are the gifts that my beloved father, joe, gave me. Didn't realize it during the terrible maelstrom of adolescence, when I was suffering, but as I became an adult now, certainly in my retirement from teaching, I can see it now I still officiate sports. See it now, I still officiate sports. And whenever I step on a baseball field or a softball diamond. I always think of my father and the joy he had in athletics and what athletics could do for a young person's life.

Speaker 2: 33:33

Well, this brings me to something that we, off the air, talked about. Father's Day is coming up and you talk about umping on Father's Day. Think about your dad. Can you tell me more about that? And also, kind of like there's some people who are listening right now who may have just lost their father, who may not even know how to deal with all that their father, who may not even know how to deal with all that.

Speaker 2: 34:01

So I'm looking for a couple of ideas for you how to deal with and process that loss, because it was powerful what you said about your dad. I know the role my dad plays in me every single day hindsight, not knowledge at the time but I definitely know all the stuff that I've become is thanks to my dad. So I want to hear more about how would you help someone go through Father's Day. I know on Father's Day, you said that's one of the things you like to do, but is there other stuff that you recommend that's such a nice question, and a sensitive one, I think, for those of you in your audience who are grieving.

Speaker 3: 34:39

I think grief is best when shared with somebody close to you, and so if there is a person perhaps a spouse, a love person, a deep friend it might be on the anniversary, special anniversaries, father's Day it might be good to seek these people out to talk with them. I am always have been a believer in the therapy of writing. Write your father a letter, seal it. Write your father a letter. You don't have to mail it. Perhaps there's a place you could go after you've written this letter and read it to yourself. Maybe it's by a lakefront, it could be a park, it might be even an auto showroom.

Speaker 3: 35:34

Go someplace where you can read the letter out loud. Find some place that brings your father back to you. Think about your father's presence in your life. Try not to idealize your father, but to see him for what he is and what he was a whole human being, flawed but loving. If that's the presence, if that's the grief, I think the greatest sadness those of us who are grieving may have is that we may not find a place to share our sadness. And so, if your readers have a person with whom they can share. That, I think, would be the most crucial thing to do.

Speaker 2: 36:27

I think that sharing is so important. I tell people that grieving doesn't look one way, but all the advice that you just gave is very important. I think that there is no right way to grieve. Well, if you do, you have one hell of a book on your head. Follow up to 90, like here's how we grieve the loss of our dad. I mean, I would love to have that book on hand, but there's no such thing?

Speaker 3: 36:52

No, there's no, I don't think there's any magic. I have two wonderful sons who now are, in their own right, fathers on their own, and they're. Both are fathers too, and they're. One has two sons, the other has one son and a beautiful daughter. And I think, if it's possible to see continuities in life, to rejoice in the blessings that we've had, I realize now that I only had my father for 15 years. I can't count the number of young men who have not had that Either. Their dads are absent, their dads were indifferent, their dads were cruel. That's a lot of people. And so sure I suffered a horrible loss. But now, at the age of 76, I look back and I had 15 years of a loving guiding hand, and that was plenty enough. And despair.

Speaker 2: 38:04

I think you make excellent points when you say that there's people who have dads who are not present. Dads who are present are very invasive or are physically there but not emotionally there. There are so many things to be said about that. The other thing I want to mention to everyone and we joked around about grief earlier, about the book, but the truth is is that this year I will free father's day differently than I did last year and it will be different than the year before, and I don't know what it's going to look like. Maybe there'll be tears this year, maybe they won won't. Maybe there'll be good moments, maybe they won't.

Speaker 2: 38:39

But the other part, too, is, when we talk about grieving, don't look for the one way to grieve the loss of your dad, particularly on Father's Day. Just let yourself be, because even though, like you said, we were lucky enough to have our dads either for 15 years, I had my dad for about 41 years, you know. I think that the dads in general, they do want our best. Sometimes they don't know how to do that, but most dads want the best for their kids, as you do for your own sons. So don't judge your grief, don't look at it as being a certain way, and I want to throw that out too.

Speaker 3: 39:15

Sure, certain way and I want to throw that out too Sure, I think sometimes men find it very difficult to access their emotions. We've been acculturated. That genuine feeling is somehow effeminate or not becoming of a man. If there are members in your audience who are uncomfortable with tears, perhaps they can find and they wish to shed them. Find a private place. Nobody has to see you, there's no report card on how well you're grieving. I also think that it's important to try to celebrate Father's Day every day, have your father be with you all the time, find, even in your daily life, maybe once or twice a day, you can find a place where you'd say, boy, dad would have liked this or dad would have enjoyed sharing this with me, and I think that would be a really nice way for your audience to keep dad alive.

Speaker 2: 40:24

I was looking behind me. If you go on YouTube, I was looking behind me. I have a couple of pictures in my office this is my studio but they're all with the outside of the studio so I can't really show them, but my dad's present everywhere in my office, he's present at home and I think that that's important to think about that presence being there. As we wrap up here because time goes by fast, we talked about your memoir 90. Yes, we can get there at Amazon. We can get that at Barnes and Nobles, as you said. Is there anything else that you think we should know about getting your memoir, because I think this would be an awesome read for a whole lot of people.

Speaker 3: 41:00

Oh, I so appreciate that. I think the book is a lovely Father's Day idea. It's about a young man as me. It's about my life, and dad's presence in the book is everywhere it asks the book tries to come to grips with.

Speaker 3: 41:19

What kind of a son am I? Am I honoring my father's memory? And so I think that book. Of course it deals with a young man trying to become a conscientious objector against an unpopular war, but it also deals with how a young man found father figures elsewhere in his life. I was so fortunate at university to have professors who were incredibly important to me. That search for a dad is lifelong, and it goes both ways. Other people may come and see you as a father figure. Many of my students did. I had the wonderful fortune of being a father and trying to convey to my sons what the essence of their grandfather, whom they could never see what he was like, what he was like. So I think the book may be a very helpful kind of a therapeutic read for those of your readers who are suffering grief. They'll look back, interestingly enough, in time a different time period of course and see how a kid became a man, how his grief ripened him into being a more productive human being.

Speaker 2: 42:40

Well, I mean, I can't speak for your dad, obviously, but you're one hell of a man surviving this and going through the conscientious objection teaching young kids for over 30 years To me. When you're doing all of that, you know you can't. You can't regret your life choices and I truly appreciate you, bruce. Bruce Wassard, go on Amazon, warrens and Nobles, go get the book 90, a memoir based on this young man who looks at least my age now at this point. So I don't know if that still makes us young men or not. But, bruce, from the bottom of my heart, thank you so much for the interview. I so appreciate the invitation. Thank you and join us for episode 209. And I thank you for your time, guys.

Speaker 1: 43:29

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