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Resilience Development in Action
Discover practical resilience strategies that transform lives. Join Steve Bisson, licensed mental health counselor, as he guides first responders, leaders, and trauma survivors through actionable insights for mental wellness and professional growth.
Each week, dive deep into real conversations about grief processing, trauma recovery, and leadership development. Whether you're a first responder facing daily challenges, a leader navigating high-pressure situations, or someone on their healing journey, this podcast delivers the tools and strategies you need to build lasting resilience.
With over 20 years of mental health counseling experience, Steve brings authentic, professional expertise to every episode, making complex mental health concepts accessible and applicable to real-world situations.
Featured topics include:
• Practical resilience building strategies
• First responder mental wellness
• Trauma recovery and healing
• Leadership development
• Grief processing
• Professional growth
• Mental health insights
• Help you on your healing journey
Each week, join our community towards better mental health and turn your challenges into opportunities for growth with Resilience Development in Action.
Resilience Development in Action
E.214 Behind the Badge: Cultural Competency in First Responder Therapy
What happens when a first responder walks into a therapist's office and shares a traumatic experience so dark that the therapist needs "a few minutes" before responding? For most first responders, this confirms their worst fear: no one can handle their reality. That's why cultural competency isn't just helpful—it's essential.
In this powerful conversation with the founding members of "Behind the Badge and Beyond," we explore the critical importance of specialized mental health care for those who serve our communities. Lisa Knowles, Richard Winning, Erin Sheridan, Alexa Silva, Jennifer Waldron, and host Steve Bisson bring decades of combined experience working with police officers, firefighters, EMTs, correctional officers, and military personnel.
The group unpacks what makes first responder therapy uniquely challenging—like the profound emotional numbing that protects on the job but destroys relationships at home, the grief that gets misinterpreted as burnout, and the resistance to vulnerability that requires extraordinary patience from clinicians. They share stories of connecting with clients through dark humor, specialized knowledge, and authentic relationship-building that creates safety for those who protect us daily.
Whether you're a first responder seeking help, a family member trying to understand, or a clinician wanting to better serve this population, this conversation offers invaluable insights into creating genuine healing spaces for those who witness trauma daily. The message is clear: first responders deserve therapists who speak their language, understand their culture, and can sit comfortably with their darkest experiences without flinching.
Ready to find a culturally competent therapist or learn more about specialized mental health support for first responders? This episode is for you!
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Welcome to Resilience Development in Action, where strength meets strategy and courage to help you move forward. Each week, your host, steve Bisson, a therapist with over two decades of experience in the first responder community, brings you powerful conversations about resilience, growth and healing through trauma and grief. Through authentic interviews, expert discussions and real-world experiences, we dive deep into the heart of human resilience. We explore crucial topics like trauma recovery, grief processing, stress management and emotional well-being. This is Resilience Development in Action with Steve Bisson.
Speaker 2:Well, hi everyone and welcome to episode 214. If you haven't listened to episode 213 yet, that was me talking about my birthday, what it means to me and all that fun stuff, and don't forget to check out. I'm going to have some extra stuff on the premium podcast Only three bucks a month really good, go listen to it. But episode 214 will be with a group that lisa knowles, who I will describe who she is very shortly, but lisa knowles started a few like about a year ago of culturally competent therapists in massachusetts and I'm very honored to say that they invited me for the third meeting maybe. So I've been part of the coalition for a short while right now, but we're really. We now have a name. It's called Behind the Badge and Beyond, and for me, like I want to give all their biographies, but I can't because it's going to be too long and they're going to talk about it anyway.
Speaker 2:But Richard Winning is someone who got his master's in social work at Westfield State University, currently volunteers on the alumni association there. He began responding with police to acute psychiatric crisis in 2017. And from there he got his part-time work and then became this is a full-time job now and he specializes in police, fire, ems and ER staff, which is what we're going to talk about anyway. Alexa Silva is someone I actually you know. I met through a long time ago not too long ago, about a year ago and then we kept on staying in contact. She invited me to the coalition. She also is someone who has worked with first responders for a long time. She has EMDR and CISM training. She focuses on individual and couples and she blends expertise with personal experience due to being married to a firefighter. She blends expertise with personal experience due to being married to a firefighter and, with over five and a half years of sobriety, she offers a live perspective that deeply, deeply affects and influences in a good way the first respondent military community. She brought her personal journey in. I hope and can't wait to hear from her. And then there's Jennifer Waldron, who is someone who worked up in Battleboro, vermont, at the retreat there. I actually remember when I worked in Vermont from the Battleboro retreat I had sent some people there, obviously from Mass too, but I remember my times in Vermont. She worked as a correctional officer as well as an acute psychiatric hospital, so she served a uniformed personnel psychiatric hospital, so she served a uniformed personnel. She's dedicated to creating a safe and supportive environment for first responders, uniformed personnel, and be socially and not socially, but culturally competent, which is so important in this field, and I'm sure we're going to bring that up on the conversation.
Speaker 2:Lisa Knowles is the founder of I can't remember what the official name was originally, but now it is the Behind the Badge and Beyond. She's the original founder. She's in Ludlow, massachusetts, with her practice. She started off. She's been doing the work since 2012. Her direct, grounded approach and cultural competency has helped her build trust with her individuals a group that we have now and she wants to unite all clinicians that are culturally competent with first responders to join and work together so that we have all these great resources.
Speaker 2:Erin Sheridan is someone I also met through the coalition Super nice. We've exchanged several times since then. She has a solo private practice that works with first responders veterans. She graduated from Anna Maria College and got her master's also in counseling psych Been doing this since 2008. She worked for IOP PHP intensive outpatient partial hospitalization. She's the clinical director of her local CISM team excuse me for the last three years and she has extensive training. She's also a spouse and family member of first responders and finally, but not less, is me who's going to be talking about all this with everyone, and I hope you enjoy it.
Speaker 2:And here's the interview Getfreeai, you heard me talk about it. I'm going to keep on talking about it because I love it. I've had about a year and a half 18 months practice with it and I still enjoy it and it saves me time and it saves me energy. Freeai takes your note, makes a transcript of what you're talking with a client Just press record and it does either transcript, it does a subjective and an objective, with a letter if needed, for your client and for whoever might need it. So, for $99 a month, it saves me so much time that it's worthwhile. And if you do it for a whole year, guess what? You get 10% off. More importantly, this is what you got to remember, because you are my audience that listens to resilience, development and action.
Speaker 2:If you do listen to this and you want to use freeai, put in the code Steve50 in the promo code area Steve50, and you will get $50 off in addition to everything we just talked about. Get freed from writing your notes. Get freed from even writing your transcripts. Use that to your advantage. Freeai, a great service. Go to getfreeai and you will get one of the best services. That will save you time and money, and I highly encourage you to do so. Well, hi everyone and welcome to episode 214. This is a very special episode to me because these are individuals who took me in a few months ago and we were trying to work on a great project, and we are continuing to create a project that now has a name and everything else which is Behind the Badge and Beyond, and I really appreciate this group, the group being Lisa Knowles, richard Wenning, aaron Sheridan, alexa Silva and Jennifer Walden. Hi everyone, and welcome to Recovery Development in Action. You get to see my home studio. I couldn't make it to my work today.
Speaker 3:Thanks for having us Hi.
Speaker 2:Well, you know, it's funny because this group, honestly, when we get together we can't shut up. And then we get here and I feel like everyone's so nervous. This is like a conversation, guys, where we're dedicated, like you know. Give it a little bit of the group this. You know, when it was started it was for really Massachusetts and therapists who are seeking to help first responders, and it's become even more organized as we've gone along. We got a little logo and everything. Now we have a website just copyrighted the name. So there's a lot of good stuff going on. But you know, I know you guys, except for Jen. I haven't met Jen, so I'm going to start with her. How about you introduce yourself, jen?
Speaker 4:Hi, I'm Jen Waldron. I have been a clinician for 10 years now. I work with first responders exclusively and uniform service members. I've included them. I don't really know what specifically to say. I'm surrounded by first responders, married to a first responder, I wore a uniform. I was a corrections officer. I understand the community and there was no question what community I was going to be working with once I started and once I became a therapist.
Speaker 2:Well, I think you said plenty. Where were you? A correctional officer at the MCIs, or?
Speaker 4:At Franklin County.
Speaker 2:Well, I worked in a prison a couple of times so I didn't serve, I promise, but I guess I didn't at the hall for a couple of years. So I really respect my correctional staff. In fact they're invited to my group that I have. I think correctional staff have it as first responders because they're pretty much all I would say all three because they got to do medical also. So they definitely have those things within what I call a different culture, so we can talk about the CEO culture forever. But welcome, jen, thank you, and Alexa in the top left corner on my computer, how about you go next?
Speaker 3:Okay, great. Yes, Hi, my name is Alexis Silva. I'm also a clinician that specializes in working with the military personnel and first responders and, like Jen, I come from a family of first responders and a big reason why I actually got into this is because of my husband. So being married to a Marine veteran and a firefighter really kind of gave me that open eye of okay, when we're not doing this right in the field, coming home to it and really seeing the personal level of it.
Speaker 3:My background is social work and I thought I was going to go get a PhD and I did my first master's in social community psych and I was like what the hell is this? And I did not want to go do research or do any of that stuff for another seven years. So then I got another master's in social work and I really wanted to get into the clinical piece. But I really, again, love the concept of what we do clinically but also taking what we have at home and being from a know from a, being from a family of first responders, being a spouse, being a friend, children, right, Anything, and then how we can really relate that. So with that too, I've had a really great experience of working with individuals in this field individually, but also at a couple's level, and sometimes that can be hard to navigate. So I know we'll talk more about that. But yeah, just love what I do. I don't have the personal background of doing the job every day, but I do have the family piece.
Speaker 2:So Well, welcome Alexa. And yes, the family stuff. A couple of episodes ago I had someone talk about the quote she's for Cindy Doyle from Code Four for Couples. Oh, she's great, she's amazing, and you know I had so many messages from family members saying thank you for addressing this stuff, so it's something that really is needed to be addressed. And you know another one who's married to the profession essentially. So thank you, alexa. How about we go with Richard Just trying to mix it up on my board here?
Speaker 5:Yeah, so my name is Richard Winning. I'm the owner operator of Responders Refuge I, for the last for my colleagues that were uh doing the work with me. Um, so I decided to start start by opening my private practice and uh have uh recently, in december, went full-time into the private practice because there's just so much demand and so much need.
Speaker 6:well, very happy and I just hired.
Speaker 5:Just hired my first additional employee last week.
Speaker 7:Congratulations. That's good too.
Speaker 2:Cultural competence.
Speaker 7:That's great.
Speaker 2:With cultural competence, Richard yeah.
Speaker 5:Oh yeah, she was one of my co-responders, so she had left that work and I told her that as soon as I had enough people lined up on the docket that I would invite her in.
Speaker 2:That's awesome. We need more culturally competent people. Hopefully we'll bring that up too later on, cause that's that's that's why we lose half the people going to therapy. They don't have the cultural competency, so really appreciate that. How about we go? I'll go with. I'll go with Erin, cause. I'll finish off with Lisa, cause you know, as the one who got us all together, I want to talk to her last, erin. How about you go next?
Speaker 6:hi, I'm Erin Sheridan. I've been a clinician for 17 ish years. I started off my career actually as an addiction counselor doing drug court down in Connecticut so I'm licensed down there as well and then eventually became mental health counselor. I come from family with first responders. I actually wanted to be a canine officer. My bachelor's degree is in criminal justice. Started off like interning with like probation within the whole court system, interned with like police stations, so that was kind of like my direction that I wanted to go. Then life took some turns and here I am counseling. So I've had my practice, beautifully Unbroken Counseling, since 2021, where I've been majority, majority, majority. There we go Working with first responders and veterans in Starbridge Mass insurance in Sturbridge Mass, and I also am the clinical director for the Central Mass Critical Incident Stress Management Team, which is near and dear to my heart.
Speaker 6:And, like I said, I came from family with first responders and then I loved it so much I married into it. So I'm married to a fire lieutenant and public safety diver. So I really wanted to have a relationship that was super healthy within first responders, because I've seen it go the opposite way and that's kind of always been my goal. But yeah, that's what drove me to work with first responders. I absolutely love it. I love the challenges that come with it. I tend to, I feel like, fit in more with that first responder personality than a lot of clinicians. So we laugh a lot at work. You know, there's the dark humor, but there's also times to be serious. Majority of my practice is doing EMDR and I'm also training a chocolate lab to become a therapy dog. She actually just turned two yesterday, so hopefully we'll be starting that process soon. Well, you know the promo picture will be used as canine Bella, so it we'll be starting that process soon.
Speaker 2:Well, you know the promo picture will be you. It says canine Bella, so it won't be a secret by then. Just want to mention that. But welcome, and last but certainly not least, Lisa Knowles, I want to hear from you because you, you know, I, I got this invitation, this group, through you. I know Alexa had contacted me, but I really appreciate it and you know, I know the important work you do. But please share the OG. She is the OG. She is the OG.
Speaker 7:Oh, my goodness. Well, thank you so much. You know I have to mirror what Aaron said I absolutely love doing this work and working with this population said I absolutely love doing this work and working with this population. And the passion and the drive started in 2012 when a uniformed officer in crisis showed up at my little office in the back of the building and my initial reaction was, oh shit, what did I do?
Speaker 7:But quickly it shifted to compassion and connection with him and I realized he wasn't there for me and I needed to be there for him. And his vulnerability really opened my eyes to how few safe and judgment-free spaces exist for first responders and especially police officers, and his journey alone showed me what's possible when trust and consistency are present. It revealed this massive unmet need. I started getting word-of mouth referrals all hours of the night. It just showed how starved the community was for culturally competent care, and that really pushed me and pushed my skills, wanting to learn more, and I saw this systemic gap and I felt, like you know, I really need to fill this, and not just with therapy, but with understanding and advocacy.
Speaker 7:And then, when I started doing all this, I really felt like I was on an island and by myself, but I knew that there were others out there like me and I desperately wanted connection. So I started researching and trying to find folks, and I think Erin was the very first person that I found and she's been amazing and helpful throughout this journey and connected me to other people and all of you that are here and then our newer members. So I feel, you know, really excited about what's in the future for us all, and so I'm really just glad to be here and for all of you.
Speaker 2:Well, thanks to you, there's episode 214 now on resilience, development and action. So thank you for that. And do we call Erin the second OG? What do we call her?
Speaker 3:Oh, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 6:Second OG. I was just excited to make a friend Me too. Making friends with an adult is hard. It is.
Speaker 2:The other thing that's fantastic is we've been going on for about 10 minutes and no one's sworn. There's no swearing yet. That's really shocking to me, actually.
Speaker 7:I'll be perfectly honest Well. I said oh shit. I said oh shit.
Speaker 2:Yeah, there's no bleeping on my podcast. I don't bleep anyone. Authenticity is what counts and hell, we wouldn't be doing this job if we weren't authentic. That so authenticity is what counts and hell, we wouldn't be doing this job if we weren't authentic. That's just my view. You know.
Speaker 2:There's a couple of things that came up that I really want to mention is that, to me, having worked in the correctional facilities, working at the drug courts, the high functioning, most dysfunctional people you know they're all high functioning but they have all shit goes down and not all of them. I don't want any emails. You know all of us are fucked up and I'm okay, I get it, but the point is, is that that's what really to me? What's fascinating to me is that's my, my jam. I worked in community settings and hearts places. That was fun for a while, but I fascinating to me is that's my jam. I worked in community settings and hearts places. That was fun for a while, but I wanted to work with a different population.
Speaker 2:This is something I embraced since 2000, and I don't regret one single second yet. Maybe sometimes, but you know what? That's a little bit of how I started and I was never intended to work. I'm a child and family specialist. I was never intended to work. I'm a child and family specialist. I was never intended to work with first responders no family, no friends. Well, I have many friends now, but I just decided that this was my people. This is just how I decided. But you know, richard, I know that I'm curious to know how you decided. You know, oh gee, willikers, this is great. I'm going to put myself in a car with cops who go on calls and then I'll end up doing therapy with them in the car. So how did that come about and why is it your population?
Speaker 5:So I have worked with aggressive populations almost my entire career. I started years ago in residential care with violent teens for an organization called Hillcrest Educational Centers, which, really, in my mind, was this place where it was the last court of appeals If kids failed out of that, they just went to jail. There was no gray area with that. I really enjoyed working with that population. Then every step of my career following that was always with those really hard to manage populations, and so BHN, which I worked in at the time for the crisis team, was starting a co-responder program, and they pulled me in and were basically like this is a population you historically work with. Would you like to be one of our first guys to start doing this?
Speaker 5:And I started in Holyoke Police Department literally the most dangerous city in the state of Massachusetts and was there for four years, did every type of call, from like active shootings to suicides. And, yeah, I realized very early in, about two and a half years in, in, that guys were coming to me with their problems just because I was there. They knew me, they could trust me to hold what they needed me to hold. It was. That was not my job, though, and so I immediately like started researching. How do you start a private practice? How do you do those things like insurance, all the liability pieces, and that was where that went to was. I took about two years for me to get comfortable, to the point where I knew everything was in place and then I started taking guys in.
Speaker 2:And you know, all I can think of is when you said Holyoke's the most dangerous city in Massachusetts Brockton and Lawrence says thank you. That's all I can think of. Sorry, Sorry, guys. I work with some of these guys.
Speaker 5:I will say that I don't actually consider holyoke the most dangerous city in massachusetts, because what they use to do that metric is they include overdoses as a dangerous event and so, like that really skews the numbers for holy oaks, the the actual number of violent offenses is not as high as that would suggest. I just want to tip my hat to the officers that work out there and do a great job.
Speaker 2:They also fudge the numbers in richer towns and they forget about those overdoses. But anyway, I'm not going to start talking about my problem with that. How about you, lisa? I mean, you're the OG. You told us a little bit about it, but when did you say, gee, willikers, these are my people, because you know I've heard other therapists who work. You know they have an officer or someone come to them and they go oh, I'll run for the hills instead of doing this. So how did you decide, gee? This is really interesting. This is what I want to continue doing for the next 10, 15,. Open a business, start a group. What made you decide all that?
Speaker 7:Well, I think that it was with that first officer that showed up at my door. I felt like I found my people. I wasn't raised in a first responder family, although I have a lot of military in my family and was married to a military officer, but the ability to have a kind of directive approach and also, you know, letting the F-bomb fly was really I felt like I was at home and, yeah, I just felt like it was just a great fit from the beginning. And you know, that is what pushed me to want to learn as much as possible about the field. And as I look back across my career, there were incidents along the way that always put me in contact with law enforcement, put me in contact with law enforcement.
Speaker 7:I was one of the first students from our town of Ludlow their Citizens.
Speaker 7:Police Academy I participated in that. I was a social work kind of intern at our local council on aging and they put a substation in there and just all of a sudden guys were coming into my office and offloading and I mean, I was pretty, I was in my 20s, so it was just like all of these threads throughout my career that put me in contact with law enforcement. And then when I went to work at BHN as Richard had also worked there I worked in the training department developing trainings, and they asked me hey, since you have a private practice working with police, would you be interested in doing some trainings for the CIT? And I said sure. And then every few months I was part of, you know, delivering trainings to the CIT and most specifically, one of the first wellness trainings in CIT specifically for officers.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I think the wellness stuff is so important for officers. Yeah, and I think the wellness stuff is so important. We really need to keep on working on doing these in service for officers and firefighters and, frankly, again going back to the correctional staff and everything else, so I really believe in that. Well, jen, I would love to hear you know what. What did you decide Like, oh geez, these are my people. I would love to hear you know what. What did you decide Like, oh geez, these are my people. Cause I think everyone has their story.
Speaker 4:Well, I think when, when I I was working at the uniform services program at the Bradwell retreat and I was working as a mental health worker just entry-level work and really enjoyed it, I really enjoyed working with them, my brother's a police officer, my husband was worked for the sheriff's department, my son now is a police officer and a firefighter.
Speaker 4:So I have a lot of family. But being in the uniform services program and seeing people come in and really do well and then leave and kind of fall off and have to come back, there was a lot of you know coming back and everything was great when I was here and I didn't really know how to hold it together once I was gone. For me it drove me to go back to school, drove me to go back and get my master's. I got my master's, went back to the uniform services program as a therapist and again realized I'm better needed in the community, not in this program, but so that when people leave that they have a place and someone to help continue the work that got done while you know that kind of work and there's a lot of really good programs that people go to and then don't know what to do when they leave.
Speaker 2:And I think that you know I shout out to the Brattleboro retreat. When it was around it was one of my favorite places to send people and I lived in Morrisville, Vermont, for about a year and I went down there a couple of times during that time to do some trainings and stuff like that. So I really shout out to the Brattleboro Retreat. Thank you for doing what you do. Is your family still around here or Vermont, or where are they?
Speaker 4:Oh, I'm in Gill, massachusetts, so we're kind of on the border of three states and my family works in and around this area. My husband's retired now.
Speaker 2:Well, I'm going to go to Aaron and hear a little more about why you decided. You know, besides watching your family go through it, I mean, what made you decide that? Geez, this is a good career choice. I do it at home. Might as well do it for my living.
Speaker 6:I think it was a few things you know, like looking back like within working with drug court I mean some of the folks I worked with like I can see the police perspective too of like you know, here's the really frustrating people out there that like you see them over and over again, they just keep, you know, reoffending using drugs. They're not getting it. So like I kind of saw like some of the burnout with them and I picked up on it and that was like a huge factor eventually for me to go into private practice. That was like a huge factor eventually for me to go into private practice. But I remember from back in the days when I worked in agencies I had a couple of clients that were medics and I would get them on my caseload and back in those days, like you didn't do your own intakes, like you were just assigned clients randomly, randomly, and I would actually get in arguments with psychiatrists because they were determined that they were narcissistic, because they use dark humor to cope with all of the things they saw and they're like, well, these guys obviously just don't care about, you know, seeing dead kids because they all have like the black clouds around them and the biggest thing is nobody ever asked them what they did for work. They didn't really take that into account. So I would hear it and I was like, oh well, that completely makes sense, why you're using like the dark humor just for coping and you're like this is trauma, like this is complex trauma. You see it every single day. You're not showing up on people's best days, like if you've got like 15 calls in a 24 hour shift. That's 15 different traumas that you're not showing up on people's best days, like if you've got like 15 calls in a 24 hour shift, that's 15 different traumas that you're being witnessed to. So after seeing them and I just I got it because I've been around it that was kind of the direction I started going in At the time.
Speaker 6:I worked out in Northeastern Connecticut and there really wasn't anything out that way for first responders. There's like a few more programs now but like really, really new, even most of Connecticut for like critical incident stress. It's not what it is here in Massachusetts. I like to think Massachusetts has it together with like critical incident stress as I'm and just helping. So because I think there's more resources here and I lived in Massachusetts that it seemed natural that my practice was at mass and you know, especially knowing so many people, because the first responder world is very, very small, it becomes like word of mouth and then it's like, oh yeah, I can trust this person.
Speaker 6:So that is just word of mouth and you know that's where it kind of goes from. From there and I think my approach where I started working more with, you know, drug court, which they're also fine and don't have a problem, it was like a really easy transition to work with first responders who are also fine and don't have a problem and you know, don't like to use the other F word, feelings, so instead we just use the word stress reactions. It's a lot easier. And then it just kind of became natural, especially, I said, with my background working within the court system and you know that that just seemed like a natural direction to go in.
Speaker 2:Well, you know, the drug courts are something that's really close and dear to me. I started two in Massachusetts and they're so important to be had. And yes, how many times did the court officer or probation officer pull me aside and tell me stuff? Nevermind the officers. That's why, like I know, I'm talking about law enforcement in general. Is it different from police to probation? A hundred percent? Not trying to, that's apples and oranges, but law enforcement officers and firefighters and military, compared to the general population, apples and celery, if you ask me.
Speaker 6:Absolutely. And I mean like even probation officers, for like they're, they're just as hard. And especially me going in as a clinician, nobody wants to talk to me because I'm a clinician. So my thing was I always bake and bring baked goods. People start talking to you and you bring baked goods and now, having a really cute chocolate lab, they warm up right away, but to this day I still bring baked goods when I go to different departments, whether it be like debriefs or just even trying to go around and introduce myself. I think it makes a huge difference too If you could put like a name with a face, not just oh here, here's a clinician, and they run in the opposite direction. I don't even usually really introduce myself as a clinician unless I actually have to.
Speaker 2:Well, we have a meeting on July 25th. Just saying and we all like baked goods here, just saying, alexa.
Speaker 6:See what I can do.
Speaker 2:Oh, we're counting on it. You know. There's so many things. I could continue going on. This is what's great about having such a large group. But, alexa, I'd love to hear from you what you know, besides going gee willikers I'm married to it might as well get into it what this made you decide to work with this population, because this is not a population that everyone wants to work with.
Speaker 3:Yeah, no, absolutely true, and it's kind of similar to what Lisa had said. I feel like I kind of always stumbled into it. So you know, when you're getting into this field sometimes you're kind of all over the place, right? So I've worked with kids like elderly in school, but every single time I always would come across military personnel or first responders and I just kept being connected to it and I'll never forget.
Speaker 3:I think I was working for an elder agency out near Boston and whenever I was doing the visits I would have not only just a stigma of the older population and the family forgets about them, but that piece of the veteran stuff and then the PTSD and the alcohol use, and they were being forgotten about. And it was just having a conversation sitting with them. Because, again, I think that with them, right, because again I think that became second tiered, right, because then they, oh, my family's older, right, like, oh, we need to forget about them. And they're like this is my identity. Right, I'm still struggling. And with that generation, right, the stigma is you didn't go get help, right, so we have to forget it, but we forget about it, right, stuff it down. So I think sometimes when we look at this, we really are like, okay, what about the younger people? Right, but it's also over, like 70, 80 years old. I'll never forget when I was at the VA, I had a Vietnam vet and police officer come in and he was 70 years old and he had walked around with all of this trauma and he had such a hard time letting go of that identity, you know, and it broke him. But I'm like you got through the door, right, it's the first step, I don't care how old you are. And then the other piece that really hit me was when I did some work at Tewksbury State Hospital on the medical unit and substance use unit. Briefly, I was in and out besides, like the lockdown unit. But there was this one veteran who just will always stick with me and the stigma that he had was just like you're in here, right, you're just another person, you know, when he had such a strong identity to the military, right, and like he had a really hard time connecting until we just sat down and talked about it, right. So one of those things is just building rapport with people Because, again, right, they have this identity and sometimes they're then forgotten about, right, it's like you're just a job and then you're just a person, but sometimes that is their whole identity and they've never even started to pull back a layer. So that was such a big piece.
Speaker 3:Is working with these populations? I kept getting drawn back to it, right, even if it was working with families or kids, I could see, you know, when the family was like first responders and military, it would just have such a different effect, right, it would affect the family differently, it would affect the parents, and there was just a lot of pull back and forth, right. Like just a lot of things that I feel like whoever we are working with couldn't touch it, and I think Erin hit upon it perfectly. Right, like that cultural competency piece. Right, like we're drawn to this field. We can kind of like see it from a mile away, right, and no one else wants to. Well, sometimes people are like we really want to go into this field, right, this is great, but then they don't know what they're getting into, right, and then they end up crying and then the first responder is holding their hand and that's not what we came for, right, so it's just really knowing that you have to be here for these people, and I think we all have a passion for that, you know.
Speaker 3:And then this was something else that my husband and I would talk about, because similar a fire lieutenant, and we would see it even early on right, like in the 20s, 30s and forth right, and no matter what stage you're in, like there is such an effect. So I think, again, there's not enough people in the community. It goes back to I forget who said it, but I think maybe it was Erin or Lisa but a lot of these veterans that I work with who are a lot older, they didn't even know where to go, right, it's just like here's something broad, right, unless you're already in the VA sector, you're not going to know. So, again, it's just until you actually meet someone, or like, we kind of have to really dig through these resources and, like, culturally competent clinicians are not always known, so it's hard.
Speaker 2:I agree wholeheartedly. And the cultural competency piece is what I felt was missing with a whole lot of people the day that a first responder told me the story of going to talk to someone who is a trauma specialist and said a story so dark that the therapist says I need a few minutes before I can respond to you and yeah, like that, like you can't handle my shit and I'm supposed to talk to you about stuff. So I think that that's what you know when you talk about the cultural competency is so essential because you got to be able to sit there and take it, so to speak, number one, number two you know we put in the vetting, vetting process for our group, dark humor. People don't understand that dark humor is essential for survival. They think that we're just being assholes and I know that. You know when people do that in my, my, my sessions, I laugh with them and I know that my colleagues who are not working in this field look at me with like dread when I do that.
Speaker 6:And they don't get it.
Speaker 1:What the hell's wrong with you?
Speaker 2:And I'm like, but to me it's stupid that they don't get it, because don't we learn in school to match the client where they're at? But anyway, that's just my two cents.
Speaker 6:Let's let me not bitch too much, steve. You're totally right, too, with the clinicians that don't get it. I've heard from clients like police officers that come in they try to outreach for therapy and the clinician will not work with them because they don't support the police, which is appalling, absolutely appalling. You don't put your own anything into the session or they cry right, I've heard that.
Speaker 3:Culturally confident or even missing the fact of when they say I'm fine, right, that's such a big thing, right, fine is fucked up, isolated, neurotic and exhausted right or get frustrated with, like the, the doorknob, like hey, it's five minutes before a session.
Speaker 6:They don't understand what's what they do is like no, that's what they do. Like what they do.
Speaker 2:Well, you're talking about a lot of the challenges, because for me, the doorknob therapy if my guys know, if they ever pull that shit, I'm like come back in. I go to the waiting room Like you're going to wait 10 minutes and I'm like you're not getting away with this crap so they don't do doorknob therapy with me. I just put that and then people like, well, you make them one wait, well, you know what. A they know how I work and b they're probably first responders. And one of the guys one day swear to god came in when I waited for 10 minutes. He's like, oh, that guy tried to walk away by saying stupid shit.
Speaker 6:I'm like, yep, that's exactly what happened uh, they know each other, they all know each other anyways. Yeah, so, like you know, they're fine with it but, but I think that might be important.
Speaker 2:Aaron, maybe you thought you started talking to conversation. I'd love to hear more about the difficulties and challenges, because it's a it's this is not for everyone. This is not for everyone I and I'm not shitting on any therapist for real but this is not for everyone.
Speaker 6:I mean, I think, like some of the challenges, it's so much rapport building and I think, for the clients to like get to know us too, because, like they're sizing us up, like they totally are the moment they come in, like the police have, like you know, like their stance with, like you know, here's my, my arms over my chest and grip of my, my vest.
Speaker 2:That's the closed one and this is the open one.
Speaker 6:Yeah, I'm, I'm fine and I think I said it is building rapport and I like I think one of my favorite moments in sessions is when you know like the clients like sitting there and like their postures all rigid and like they're they're clearly anxious and apprehensive, but then they sit back and they relax and then, like it's usually it takes like a couple of dark jokes to like really like bring that like to the forefront and it's beautiful because then they start making like those connections with you. And you know, I really think you have to get to know clients too at like that human level, like you know absolutely like maintain the boundaries, but you still have to get to know them as a human. They don't want to talk to a robot, they don't want to like sit there, like well, I can't tell you anything about myself because you know boundaries, you they don't want to talk to a robot. They don't want to like sit there like well, I can't tell you anything about myself because you know boundaries, you know they don't want that Like. You know, if they're coming in and talking to you about all of this stuff, you still need to like be able to, you know, disclose a few things within reason, right, and just be a person. That that's the biggest thing they, they absolutely don't want to hear.
Speaker 6:Well, how does that make you feel? Or you know, oh, what I hear you telling me is blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. No, like there's ways to rephrase stuff and you know, talk, you know, like a human opposed to just being like you know the quote unquote like therapist, so like I really kind of strive to be that type of person and then it's not as challenging. I think for me, honestly, like the biggest challenge is to not fit so many EMDR sessions in like the same day. And I do it to myself like all the time and tell myself I'm not going to do that and then just keep it up with all the paperwork. But I like I love that difficult population or you know, quote unquote difficult population. I just kind of like breaking through some of that resistance because I don't want to give up on them.
Speaker 3:They just they need to be able to feel comfortable and open up erin also, you just have a great way of I feel like whenever we're talking professionally and just personally, the power dynamic I've, since day one I've met you you, just you never make anyone feel like they're in the other seat, right, because that's so common when first responders come in right, because they're already in the policy and then, oh, whether, right, even if it's court mandate, whatever that looks like, are they're being for it, right?
Speaker 3:we have a lot of the chiefs. Sometimes you know you need to get a treatment, or blah blah, and they come in and it's like, okay, well, this is just another dog, right, doctor, psychiatrist or whatever. But you, yeah, just the way, that, right. But maybe it's also the big goods, I don't know.
Speaker 6:But also, too, sometimes when I open my mouth, sometimes they don't realize that they're talking to a therapist. Like, did she really just say that? Because I will call people out on their shit. My favorite line is how's that working for you? If I have to dig, dig, dig over and over what brings you in? I'm getting these vague answers and I'm like, what brings you in? I'm getting, like these vague answers and I'm like what? What are you doing?
Speaker 2:you know, or sometimes just even knowing, the lingo is such a huge thing you know, I've heard, I've had a police officer tell me they went to a therapist and say I went to a call. Oh, who called you?
Speaker 6:that's funny, or just like I said, knowing the difference between dead and dead dead like that's funny. Or just like I said, knowing the difference between dead and dead dead, like that's huge, like I, I've caught people off guard because I knew what the that difference was. Or they come in and they're, you know, like they went to an accident. They're like, oh, I have some cool pictures. I'm like oh yeah, like yeah, you want to see. I'm like absolutely like, bring them out, you know. So, like that, it doesn't really bother me. I've always just found like I don't know, just curiosity. I found it interesting and was originally kind of what I wanted to do. So, like that kind of stuff doesn't get me is this why we're?
Speaker 3:is this why we're all friends and we can't function in society?
Speaker 6:probably, probably. I mean, I think like to. One of the other challenges with it is, you know, I think for these guys it's not so much even like the gruesome stuff, it's more the, the emotions that come along with like live people and I think that's like their grief and I think they just don't know what to do with that. And I mean, as therapists we don't always know what to do with it, but they're seeing it like it's in the forefront in the moment and I think the important thing that they like can't wrap their heads around and they're just like deer in the headlights with it, like you just got to let them have their feelings. There's nothing you're going to do or say in that moment to really make them feel better, as long as you're doing everything you need to do and focus on the practical stuff.
Speaker 2:And sometimes it's knowing to build the relationship. Sorry, richard, because I, you know, I have people who I kept. For a year and a half to two years we talked about hockey, the weather, everything but therapy, and then one day it's the trauma dump and I was ready for it. But, you know, and he's like wow, you're really patient with me. I'm like listen, man, I know how this shit works. You don't want to talk about it. I'm not going to sit here and say please talk about it, cause I, you're not going to talk about it.
Speaker 2:So I think that what I explained to people is that you need to like knowing the challenge is, be patient. Some people will tell you right away, and that's great. I think, as a male with under bail, sometimes I'm not trying to be sexist, but the truth is males will be a little more resistant and want to protect themselves because they want to know, like, if I'm vulnerable, is he going to make fun of me? Is he going to fuck with me? I shall. Now I will fuck with them enough for the important stuff, and that's kind of a very tricky thing that therapists don't always understand, because you got to be able to laugh about stuff too right.
Speaker 6:You have to like just roll with the resistance. And you know, even when I supervise other clinicians, it's like being patient you have like I mean sometimes like it's like I tell them, it's like you gotta wait, like wait it out, build the rapport like you're gonna be going back and forth like for a long time, but like you gotta build that trust.
Speaker 5:That's how you roll with the resistance there's a, there's a big part to this where, um, something that we've all talked about, where and especially having done it myself where, like, you don't realize that you're doing it, when you're a first responder, where you engage in emotional numbing to protect yourself from the damages you're being exposed to on a day-to-day basis.
Speaker 5:And I didn't think that that was where most of my like therapy work was really going to focus, like when I started down this pathway. But so much of it is just helping guys reconnect with that emotions and learning how to build those good barriers between, like, home life and work life. And being able to like reconnect with their loved ones in a meaningful way where they actually feel joy once again is just such a rewarding aspect of this work. Where it's like they don't realize that they're not feeling those emotions anymore. They don't even get it until they finally like have that, like you just said, that epiphany moment, that trauma dump moment where, like, all of a sudden, they're done with that, they're like that, they're like that's a real emotion.
Speaker 2:I haven't had one of those in ages yeah, and I think that the other part too is, when you think about that, those emotions, is that you learn that what's socially acceptable anger and happy, sadness ain't acceptable, surprise definitely isn't acceptable. And fear if you show fear, you are fucked. And I think it's important to realize that, those core emotions, getting them to embrace them in their personal life, when they don't show it up in their work life and I always tell them I'm like you don't want to show it at work, I'll respect that, I have no problem with that, but you need to be able to live them somewhere. Be able to live them somewhere and that's really something that's kind of important because, while I'm not opposed to having an officer having a hard day or whatever of any kind, or a firefighter, but sometimes being in the moment showing that emotion, it's just like me crying in session while someone's talking to me. It'd be a little inappropriate, so um, um, that's something.
Speaker 6:Well, I think that they are. They are feeling the emotions 're just ignoring them, and I always hear well, I just don't want to feel, I just want to be numb. But I'm like, but really, how is that working? Because you're feeling that wouldn't it just be easier to just maybe focus on them for just like a little bit, and then you don't have to feel them as strong the, the proverbial 10 pounds of shit in a five pound bag, if you ask me.
Speaker 2:But you know, jen, and Jen and Lisa, I mean, what are your challenges? What do you face with those guys that maybe is a little different than the regular population or, as they like to call us, civilians?
Speaker 7:Probably one of the biggest things is their grief being misread as anger, apathy and burnout. I've had folks come in and just be so exasperated by everyone telling them you know, you're always angry, You're always this, you must be burnt out, you must be this, and you know it all comes back to oftentimes that their grief isn't about the loss of a person. It's about the loss of control, identity, innocence, purpose, safety, all of those kinds of things. So I've noticed a lot around grief and being really misunderstood and grief is such a complex thing.
Speaker 2:but all due respect to Kubler-Ross's model, which is a great start off, it doesn't explain all of it, for sure. And again, respect to Elizabeth, rest your soul. But I think there's a lot more to grief than just five stages and having an end goal, if you ask me. But, jen, what about you? I want to hear more about your difficulties that you face.
Speaker 4:I think one of the hardest things to when I work with people is that, the idea that you have to embrace the shit to be able to feel the positive, like they go hand in hand there, you know you have to be able to walk through the pile of manure to find the daisy on the other side of the manure.
Speaker 4:You have to kind of be in yourself and that and that's not fun and it doesn't always feel good. I describe people as like that water dragon that runs across the top of the water and if you're going through life like that, sometimes you have to sit and kind of you know, tread water, sit in it, be in it and feel everything, all the yucky stuff, so that you can have all the amazing things. I think that training helps. They put their uniforms on, their training kicks in and they go and they do what they have to do and they are a bit numb to it, but it's still stuck there and when they take their uniforms off it's still. You still have to sift through it and and put it somewhere.
Speaker 4:Compartmentalized is is something that you know we all work to unfurl. But I really think the hardest thing is people don't want to deal with the yucky stuff. They don't want to, they don't want to burden other people and they don't want to burden us, they don't want to burden their family members. So they kind of hold it inside and realizing that once you start letting some of that out and let some of that go and sit in the muck and the mire that there is. There is positivity on the other side of it.
Speaker 2:Don't tell them positivity, they're just going to run away.
Speaker 3:Jen, you hit such a good point with that and I just want to touch upon the family aspect of that for a sec. First talk about right, they're carrying so much of the weight on themselves, right, and then sometimes spouses or family members will be like I'm so mad, right, my, my first responder, my military person, spouse, whatever, um doesn't share, right. And then they tell us, well, I'm actually trying to protect them from it, right, they're just carrying all that weight, right. It's not about anger, like disconnect sometimes, it's just they're also trying to protect. But then who's going to protect them? Right?
Speaker 4:And I think we've had every single one of us has had someone say to them I don't really want to share this with you because I don't like talking about it and I don't want to put it on you as well.
Speaker 3:So there is like put it on us, this is what we're here for, right, and no one has ever been able to do that for them sometimes Right.
Speaker 6:But the other thing, too, is like for spouses like Alexa. I don't know about you, and the same thing with Jen is that you know, we hear that they went to something. We have no idea what it is. We have amazing imaginations.
Speaker 2:Like yes.
Speaker 6:I mean I go straight to, like you know, like something like crazy cinematic like Chicago fire, yeah, like that. What I think is going on, with blood spurting out everywhere or brain splatter on the wall.
Speaker 3:I can't right, right amazing imaginations yeah, we know, right, when it's um this is something else to talk about terminology and just as a spouse. But even in the clinical field, right, like if it's a child, you know rescue, recovery, right. Sometimes you know immediately, right, all these different things and um. But even I think, sometimes as a spouse or a family member or a friend, sometimes our clinical brain gets put on the backside, right. Sometimes I would say like when, after I'm done work, sometimes I become the client, because there's moments and days where I'm like this is hard, right, or like we get back into being like a family member, a spouse or friend, to like I'm really worried.
Speaker 2:Right and I think that we we can put our training aside. I mean, like I said, I'm a child and family specialist. Pretty, training aside. I mean, like I said, I'm a child and family specialist Pretty sure my daughters would have a field day on this podcast talking about how crappy of a dad I am. I know I do good overall, but there's things in life you just forget about your training. You just become a human, which reminds me that we got to be human here and I got to be precious about the time for everyone.
Speaker 2:Obviously, we got through two questions out of the 12 that I received, so this is typically what this group does is we're good at talking. We share. Well, come back and even at one point I'd love to have individual interviews with you guys, because that would be great, give us more time and in-depth for everyone's story. But we'll look in the beginning of the fall. I know we're going to see each other in a couple of weeks, but I want to thank you all for your time and I appreciate it and hopefully we'll talk soon. And to everyone who's listening, episode 215 will be out in about a week and go listen to that and thank you for your time.
Speaker 3:Thank you for having us Thank you for this group too. Love you all.
Speaker 6:Good to see. Everybody Appreciate you.
Speaker 1:Please like, subscribe and follow this podcast on your favorite platform. A glowing review is always helpful and, as a reminder, this podcast is for informational, educational and entertainment purposes only. If you're struggling with a mental health or substance abuse issue, please reach out to a professional counselor for consultation. If you are in a mental health crisis, call 988 for assistance. This number is available in the United States and Canada.
